E-mail from decent Mepublican colleague. How to respond?

[callous taoboy]

I just wanted you to know that I have been reading the articles you have sent and watching the bill moyer's video. Actually, I've given them lots of attention, making notes about thoughts I have at the time.
I have allowed myself to not get back with you for several reasons. One of them is that I don't particularly enjoy these discussions....it's the truth. I am not particularly happy with that statement, and I'm not saying that debating policy issues isn't important. In fact, I think it's very important. Here's the rub: I feel like I have to have my debate reasoned out to the nth degree to even match wits with you, and I don't really think that in the end, you necessarily want to be at peace about this.
You talked about feeling branded as "not patriotic" by many of our resident conservative folk. You spoke with passion about this, and I can tell it hurt you deeply (or offended, disappointed, bewildered, p.o.'d). I would like you to know that I consider you very patriotic, and the quest of finding the truth, as you know it, to be a journey of the highest order. This is the very nature of patriotism.
You may not feel this, or accept my comparison, but I feel similarly offended when I read some of this narrative (and have some debates). I sometimes find it to be filled with judgment, disrespect, and to have a condescending nature. This seems to happen as a matter of right, as witnessed by a Christmas card I received the other day from some of my best friends in Colorado: "We are both concerned about the direction our world seems to be headed in, particularly in this country which just elected a man we wouldn't trust to mow our lawn, but you make do with what you have."
What makes people think that it is okay just to say this....just to drop this casually into a letter like you were critiquing a vacation choice this year. How am I supposed to feel about this? Discounted, because I obviously have no sense (otherwise I would have voted better)? When I, a person whose faith is the bedrock of my life (and who tries his clumsy best not to shove it in other's faces, but rather to be Christ-like in my charity and kindness with others), listen to critics heap disrespect on people who voice their belief in a creator and higher callings in life, not in the spirit of true discussion, but as if disdain and hate for these people is somehow enlightened or justified, i am deeply offended.
I have a memory in mind. It was after a practice for handbells, in front of ---------- Church. The 2000 election was being contested and I confess that I made a flippant remark about the result. This was only meant as a joke, if even thought about that much. However, you tore into me something fierce, getting very close to my face, and appearing, at times, like fisticuffs might occur. I didn't like this, and I still remember it. In one sense, you were sticking up for your guy and letting me know that the system, in your opinion, was totally messed up. You were in pain for your side. I can accept this. I don't see, however, where it has to get so heated, or where my feelings and opinions have to be somehow walked on or disregarded. I'm not saying that this is your intention, but it is the definite feel of the pieces you have asked me to consider. From my perspective, I feel insulted at times; something I don't seek out, as a rule.
I understand feeling strongly about something and arguing the good and the bad, but, I don't willingly enjoy entering a domain where my opinions, feelings, and leanings will, in the end, not be accepted or respected. I don't believe that one side is all right, and the other all wrong......I don't feel that Fox News is the devil or wicked (and I have trouble believing in media conspiracies when I think of NPR, PBS, the major news networks, many of our largest papers, and most of Hollywood, who have no problem giving their slant on the world. I actually listen to all of these, and enjoy them much of the time, but if you think that Republicans/conservatives/evangelicals are given the same kind of sweet, homespun stories and respectful slant, then that highlights how we both see what we want to see).....I have a hope and basic feeling that most politicians are decent and trying the best they can (in both parties!).....I didn't belittle Bill Clinton's basic value, I applaud his skill and know in my heart that he did many great things for America, and I didn't see his election/reelection as the ruination of our country.
I'm talking myself into a corner, and this brings up the second reason I haven't written: I haven't had the time to prepare a proper essay. Or, I should say, I haven't MADE the time. Unfortunately, tonight is not really the time either. I'm missing school tomorrow - doctor's orders (viral infection). I am sneaking into school in a bit, quick cleaning my desk (can you say Scholastic box?), and coming home to make a brief plan for tomorrow. This must be done, and I should be about it before I get too sleepy.
I've been sitting here, thinking of what I haven't written, how to prove my point, persuasive topics, etc...............and, I
realize that I don't want to convert you and I'm happy with you just the way you are. I don't mean to discourage our talking....quite the contrary. I have enjoyed plenteous good times with you and I know that we can debate philosophies and have fun. I don't feel the need to justify my side, but I'll tell you, to the best of my ability what I'm thinking. If that's okay with you, I hope you'll come on down in a few days (once the croupy cough is over)....let's have a beer and chat.
I've given you a lot. Maybe 1/10th of it is worthwhile, but my desire was to let you know that I've given your words and recommendations much thought. Thanks for reading this and thank you for the opportunities to study and ponder. It is good!!
I hope you have a great week, and I'll seeya later.

Sincerely, and with friendship,
----------


--------------------------------------------------------------------
---This colleague really is a decent person. He forgets that he, too, was red-faced mad with spit flying from the corners of his mouth that day in 2000 in front of the church.

[aquart]

1. I can't read slabs of words. Paragraphs?

[JHB]

4. Better?

(Copied from the original post, with improved spacing)


I just wanted you to know that I have been reading the articles you have sent and watching the bill moyer's video. Actually, I've given them lots of attention, making notes about thoughts I have at the time.

I have allowed myself to not get back with you for several reasons. One of them is that I don't particularly enjoy these discussions....it's the truth. I am not particularly happy with that statement, and I'm not saying that debating policy issues isn't important. In fact, I think it's very important. Here's the rub: I feel like I have to have my debate reasoned out to the nth degree to even match wits with you, and I don't really think that in the end, you necessarily want to be at peace about this.

You talked about feeling branded as "not patriotic" by many of our resident conservative folk. You spoke with passion about this, and I can tell it hurt you deeply (or offended, disappointed, bewildered, p.o.'d). I would like you to know that I consider you very patriotic, and the quest of finding the truth, as you know it, to be a journey of the highest order. This is the very nature of patriotism.

You may not feel this, or accept my comparison, but I feel similarly offended when I read some of this narrative (and have some debates). I sometimes find it to be filled with judgment, disrespect, and to have a condescending nature. This seems to happen as a matter of right, as witnessed by a Christmas card I received the other day from some of my best friends in Colorado: "We are both concerned about the direction our world seems to be headed in, particularly in this country which just elected a man we wouldn't trust to mow our lawn, but you make do with what you have."

What makes people think that it is okay just to say this....just to drop this casually into a letter like you were critiquing a vacation choice this year. How am I supposed to feel about this? Discounted, because I obviously have no sense (otherwise I would have voted better)? When I, a person whose faith is the bedrock of my life (and who tries his clumsy best not to shove it in other's faces, but rather to be Christ-like in my charity and kindness with others), listen to critics heap disrespect on people who voice their belief in a creator and higher callings in life, not in the spirit of true discussion, but as if disdain and hate for these people is somehow enlightened or justified, i am deeply offended.

I have a memory in mind. It was after a practice for handbells, in front of ---------- Church. The 2000 election was being contested and I confess that I made a flippant remark about the result. This was only meant as a joke, if even thought about that much. However, you tore into me something fierce, getting very close to my face, and appearing, at times, like fisticuffs might occur. I didn't like this, and I still remember it. In one sense, you were sticking up for your guy and letting me know that the system, in your opinion, was totally messed up. You were in pain for your side. I can accept this. I don't see, however, where it has to get so heated, or where my feelings and opinions have to be somehow walked on or disregarded. I'm not saying that this is your intention, but it is the definite feel of the pieces you have asked me to consider. From my perspective, I feel insulted at times; something I don't seek out, as a rule.

I understand feeling strongly about something and arguing the good and the bad, but, I don't willingly enjoy entering a domain where my opinions, feelings, and leanings will, in the end, not be accepted or respected. I don't believe that one side is all right, and the other all wrong......I don't feel that Fox News is the devil or wicked (and I have trouble believing in media conspiracies when I think of NPR, PBS, the major news networks, many of our largest papers, and most of Hollywood, who have no problem giving their slant on the world. I actually listen to all of these, and enjoy them much of the time, but if you think that Republicans/conservatives/evangelicals are given the same kind of sweet, homespun stories and respectful slant, then that highlights how we both see what we want to see).....I have a hope and basic feeling that most politicians are decent and trying the best they can (in both parties!).....I didn't belittle Bill Clinton's basic value, I applaud his skill and know in my heart that he did many great things for America, and I didn't see his election/reelection as the ruination of our country.

I'm talking myself into a corner, and this brings up the second reason I haven't written: I haven't had the time to prepare a proper essay. Or, I should say, I haven't MADE the time. Unfortunately, tonight is not really the time either. I'm missing school tomorrow - doctor's orders (viral infection). I am sneaking into school in a bit, quick cleaning my desk (can you say Scholastic box?), and coming home to make a brief plan for tomorrow. This must be done, and I should be about it before I get too sleepy.

I've been sitting here, thinking of what I haven't written, how to prove my point, persuasive topics, etc...............and, I
realize that I don't want to convert you and I'm happy with you just the way you are. I don't mean to discourage our talking....quite the contrary. I have enjoyed plenteous good times with you and I know that we can debate philosophies and have fun. I don't feel the need to justify my side, but I'll tell you, to the best of my ability what I'm thinking. If that's okay with you, I hope you'll come on down in a few days (once the croupy cough is over)....let's have a beer and chat.

I've given you a lot. Maybe 1/10th of it is worthwhile, but my desire was to let you know that I've given your words and recommendations much thought. Thanks for reading this and thank you for the opportunities to study and ponder. It is good!!
I hope you have a great week, and I'll seeya later.

Sincerely, and with friendship,
----------


--------------------------------------------------------------------
---This colleague really is a decent person. He forgets that he, too, was red-faced mad with spit flying from the corners of his mouth that day in 2000 in front of the church.

[ultraist]

10. LMAO!!! You guys got into a fight in front of your church over 2000?

BWHAHAHAHA!!! This just struck me as funny. "After handbell practice..." LOL!

I have a memory in mind. It was after a practice for handbells, in front of ---------- Church. The 2000 election was being contested and I confess that I made a flippant remark about the result. This was only meant as a joke, if even thought about that much. However, you tore into me something fierce, getting very close to my face, and appearing, at times, like fisticuffs might occur. I didn't like this, and I still remember it.

Sorry, but that scene created a nice visual.

It sounds like your friend invested a lot into this email and your freindship. I would pursue some arrangement whereby you can respectfully disagree on political issues and remain friends.

[callous taoboy]

19. I guess that is funny-

Even funnier if you knew me, since I usually don't do anything remotely churchy.

[hollywood926]

13. Sometimes talking politics isn't such a good idea...

in some cases you should just agree to disagree and move on (when it's clear that neither of you will ever change your minds). I posted a "history test" that a friend sent to me this morning and he knows full well that I will be offended by such things, but sends them anyway. That bothers me more than what he sent me. So I never bring up politics, except to respond to anything he sends me.

Your friend at least seems decent enough to respect your right to a differing opinion.

[callous taoboy]

7. Apologies. Thanks for correcting, JHB.

[Arkana]

2. He sounds like a guy who just won't see it...

It's good that he didn't think Bill Clinton was the devil, but not seeing that the Repubs own the media isn't. He sounds like someone who just tries to see the best in everyone. That's not a bad thing, but the inherent naivete isn't good, either.

I'm not sure how you would "deal" with it...

[IrateCitizen]

3. Just give him/her time to respond...

It sounds as if your friend is actually somewhat pained by the idea that the disagreement you have over politics is spilling over into your friendship, and affecting it adversely. I'm not saying you should STOP talking politics, but you should take steps to reassure your friend that you value your friendship together and that your purpose has never been to undermine your friendship.

You should also bring up the fact that obviously both of you are passionate about what you believe, and thank your friend for having an open mind in reading what you are sending him/her. Whatever you do, DON'T STOP sending him/her articles and such so long as he/she doesn't complain.

[politicaholic]

5. So what? He's a republican, but seems very rational...

I say reply:

"A beer sounds great. Give me a call."

[hermetic]

6. Send 'em this article

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=7056

It's being discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1529983

Good luck

[adigal]

8. If he is so religious

then how does he support this war??? And this lying administration??? He is in pain - because deep down, he knows you are right, he cannot fight you, but would rather run away than rethink positions he has held probably all of his life.

It's a shame - but I would keep trying to convert him because he sounds like a decent person.

[kiraboo]

14. I guess I'd have to know what sort of arguments he's put forth

to defend the war and *. Yes, he sounds intelligent... intelligent enough to recognize that you and others have perhaps lost respect for him and his opinions because of where he stands. That's got to hurt, the same way that Democrats are hurting these days.

I have one or two friends I care about and we have agreed not to discuss the subject at all. Period. In my heart I cannot respect their choices, but as we both acknowledge one another's right to make our choices, so be it. Perhaps our mutual discomfort will pass, and perhaps it will not. I don't see the point of hanging on to something or somebody who hurts me - on the other hand I won't cast somebody off if we can manage a positive relationship despite one or two radical differences. Hell, I do it with my husband; I can do it with my friends.

[papau]

9. Does voicing ones belief in a creator and higher callings in life mean it

is no longer permitted to heap disrespect on such a person if he also advoctes screwing helpless to advantage the powerful, or screwing the middle class so as to advantage the rich?

Why must disdain and hate for those people that speak the talk of the religious, but then twist that talk in their deeds, be not allowed.

Indeed, can one be enlightened or justified in your religion - and even not offensive to others of different belief, and still be worthy of distain because of your actions?

Or does having a religious belief entitle one to feeling offended if others point out that you are hurting the poor?

Why is economic fairness, or civil rights or any political topic one where disagreement means hurt feelings - or a feeling that one's opinions have been somehow walked on or disregarded.

Indeed everyone sees what we want to see - and to have pointed out what you missed in your first look is to teach - and to learn.

[Liberty Belle]

11. Robert Kennedy once said 80% of Republicans are just uneducated Democrats.

Your friend exemplifies RFK's point, and seems open to being educated as long as you approach him in a non-confrontational, non-judgmental fashion. He obviously trusted in Bush and most likely wouldn't buy into the neocon agenda if he understood it.

You may wish to educate him about the New American Century Project (essentially a plan for world domination promulgated by the NEOCONs), laid out years ago, which is frightening. Members of this group include Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other key administration players, if I recall.

Also give him some unbiased info on Social Security "reform" and the neocon's true agenda: destruction of SSI, which they view as just a big government subsidy. If you need articles on SSI, let me know; there are many resources posted here. Check AARP and other sources he would trust, like the Wall Street Journal or economic magazines.

You need to educate him on the media problems. Suggest that he subscribe to mediamatters.org's e-mailings on media distortions and bias. Also let him know that several so-called journalists have been exposed for taking pay-offs from the Bush adminsitration to promote programs such as No Child Left Behind and the Marriage Protection measure. Just today, news broke about two FOX NEWS commentators on the White House dole. See how he feels about this practice.

If he has Internet access, suggest a few moderate to liberal news sites to read, if not instead of mainstream media, as a supplement to be sure he is hearing all viewpoints--and all major stories. Part of the "bias" problem is that many important stories are simply not covered at all in the mainstream press.

He may not be aware that in the past few years, the major networks and Cable stations have been sold to large corporations, so they are no longer independent. Viacom, which owns CBS, has a CEO who has publicly stated he supported Bush because he thinks Republicans are better for big media. The so-called independent panel CBS had look into the Rather-memogate flap over Bush's National Guard service was actually extremely biased--consisting of just two people: a former Reagan cabinet official and a conspirator in the Iran Contra scandal! That's per Greg Palast, an investigative journalist for the BBC. See www.gregpalast.com for that story and more. He has also covered the US election and is convinced that it was stolen from Kerry. Other networks are also biased. NBC is owned by General Electric, which profits from Pentagon contracts.

Radio is even worst. A recent survey found 90% of talk radio is dominated by the right-wing of the GOP. There are numerous documented instances of outright lies put out by these talk show hosts. Even NPR, the last bastion of non-biased radio news, is now under increased right-wing control because the GOP has taken over control of the federal board that funds NPR and is exerting editorial control.

One-party rule is not healthy for our country. The courts, Congress, presidency and now our media are all dominated by not just Republicans, but the extreme neoconservative right wing of the Republican party.

If your friend would like to be added to my newsletter, the Liberty Belle Log, I would be happy to add him to my list. I publish a bi-weekly progressive newsletter with important articles under-reported by the mainstream press. I'm a journalist with 20 years in the business of writing news, not fluff.

[callous taoboy]

20. Excellent post.

I will borrow liberally from your post, Liberty Belle.

[Liberty Belle]

28. Be my guest! Also look at this book for converting Reps:

It's called God's Politics, by an evangelist minister who is fed up with the right wingers saying if you have faith, you must support right wing politics. He's also fed up with hearing that if you have progressive social values, you must not have faith. It's moving up on best seller lists and has a lot of appeal for pulling people away from the Republican camp and into the Democratic camp.

[phusion]

12. Funny thing about Xmas cards...

My parents were sent a card from my dad's colleague that said:

"The lord continues to answer our prayers, as he did on November 2nd."

[gratuitous]

15. Your friend is absolutely right

When he says, "I feel like I have to have my debate reasoned out to the nth degree to even match wits with you."

Yes, that's correct. Because when he writes pious platitudes about his faith, but can't be bothered to explain how he squares his faith with the actions of the corrupt Bush administration, he leaves you no alternative but enter a domain of speculation "where my opinions, feelings, and leanings will, in the end, not be accepted or respected." If you can't articulate your position, then yes, it may get caricatured.

He seems a sensitive enough soul. If he could flesh out his feelings and his thoughts, it might almost be worthwhile to engage him. But when he can't or won't explain what he thinks or why he thinks what he does, and then takes offense because you don't understand, it's difficult to carry on a discussion.

[Liberty Belle]

16. Here's an example of a story to give your friend.

It's from US Newswire, an unbiased source, and reveals that Bush lacks the "compassion" in "compassionate conservativism." Send a story like this every day, and over time, you will change many minds among your conservative friends who think they can trust Bush or that Bush is a good person trying to do his best. Story after story like this paint a far different picture, revealing Bush as someone who only cares about protecting big corporations that made hefty contributions to his campaign. -- LB

Disgusted Over Bush's Dismissal of Patients' Needs, Injured Ohio Patient Demands Meeting Again

Contact: Joanne Doroshow or Laurie Beacham, 212-267-2801, both for the Center for Justice & Democracy


NEW YORK, Jan. 26 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Judy Mays, an Ohio woman whose life was forever altered by the devastating effects of medical negligence, said today that she was strongly disappointed to learn that President Bush (news - web sites) is returning to Ohio on Thursday without even bothering to respond to an earlier request to meet made by her and two other women. Mays, along with Lisa Vitale and Deborah Rayburn, submitted that request seven months ago. Judy Mays is sending a second meeting request today.


"It is unacceptable for President Bush to campaign for a law that would protect HMO's, drug companies, unsafe hospitals and the insurance industry, while failing to meet with the very people who will be hurt most by his narrow-minded and harmful legislation," said Mays.


Bush plans to come to Ohio to discuss his health care agenda, which includes limiting compensation to most catastrophically injured patients. While campaigning last year, President Bush came to Ohio several times to attack those who use the courts to seek compensation and improve patient safety by holding accountable in court hospitals, HMOs and other heath care providers. Mays, Vitale, and Rayburn, all devastatingly injured patients of one particular doctor whom Bush brought on stage, demanded a meeting in a letter sent June 22, 2004. The White House still has not responded, as it has refused to respond to numerous other requests to meet by injured patients.


Mays stated, "Bush's failure to respond to us is cold-hearted, and a reflection of his apparent priorities -- profits over patients. We are good citizens who have lost a tremendous amount as a result of negligent health care. President Bush needs to listen to our stories."


For full copies of both letters and further information, please see http://centerjd.org.


http://www.usnewswire.com/


-0-

[Liberal In Texas]

17. Interesting leap of logic:

The card said: "We are both concerned about the direction our world seems to be headed in, particularly in this country which just elected a man we wouldn't trust to mow our lawn, but you make do with what you have."

Your friend reacts: "What makes people think that it is okay just to say this....How am I supposed to feel about this? Discounted..."etc.

Therefore:
Bush and I are Christians > You think Bush is bad > You therefore think I am bad too.

No sport, we think you're gullible.

[MissB]

22. Exactly.

Plus, the fact that he thinks it is not okay to question the President because he is "Christian" gives me the shivers.

[geniph]

18. Do you want to change his mind, or be his friend?

If you want to change his mind, then you're going to have to back off a little and let him initiate political discussions, because if you push too hard, he'll close his mind to your views altogether.

If you want to be his friend, then agree to disagree and drop politics altogether.

Either way, don't push this guy. This one could be brought over from the dark side with gentleness and calm reason, never by force. I actually don't think you can convince anyone with force, it's just a way to shut up the really obnoxious ones. Don't use guerrilla tactics on the reasonable ones, it just alienates them. Guerrilla tactics are only for assholes who use them on you.

I have yet to meet a hardcore right-winger who can actually continue to articulate their views when met with a barrage of facts. They all seem to flip out, and either they respond like this guy, retreating behind "I feel I have to have my argument reasoned out to the nth degree" or they resort to childish name-calling. I have yet to find one who can continue a civil discourse when you point out the cognitive dissonance of many of their firmly-held beliefs. I am beginning to think it isn't possible.

[callous taoboy]

23. Thanks, Geniph-

I am not one to be pushy about my politics, but after November I could not even look at this friend at work. The whole team he works with, save for one member, is pro-bush, and I don't think that they spend much time thinking about what is going on in the world. I live in a small, very conservative town (pop. 11,000 with a dozen churches
and no book stores) that had a ridiculous amount of Kerry sign vandalism. A liberal member of his team would share with me how during their breaks the rest of the team would sit around making stupid comments about Kerry and Theresa, and when she would counter with something intelligent they would look at one another and roll their eyes etc. So in this tiny town the election had all of the aires of a Texas high school football game, and this is what drove me nuts. His whole team knew that I was extremely disappointed by the outcome (I looked like hell for weeks afterward). Slowly, some members of his team began to approach me with, "So how's it going?" I would respond, rather acidly, "I think we're heading down a long, dark path, thanks."

So about a month after the election I found a nice piece written by a fellow DUer that wasn't antagonistic, but rather heartfelt about how he felt like we are losing the USA. I sent it to the author of the e-mail I posted. A few days later he came down to my room to chat and we had our first conversation about the election. He ws really trying to see it from my POV, but he couldn't understand why "we" are always choosing to look at the dark side of things. That's where I said that questioning is our patriotic duty, and that I refuse to look at elections as though they were football games. He tried to claim that the media is left-biased, as he implies in the e-mail. I did bring up PNAC (he'd never heard of it, no surprise).

I don't think I'll pursue trying to convert anyone. I'm not the right person for that job because I can't keep facts in my head and I tend to get pissed easily so it would defeat the purpose. Besides, I'm not motivated to send this friend anymore Bill Moyers pieces only to have him claim it was offensive just because it doesn't jibe with his POV. This is exactly what the bush admin. has done and will continue to do. Weird that his faithful do the same thing.

BTW, one irony is that this colleague's brother is gay. I don't know how my colleague squares that with a bush vote.

[knitter4democracy]

24. I would back off too.

There is hope, though. My husband was a dyed-in-the-wool Freeper-wannabe when we started dating, and he's as liberal as I am now. Many things started opening his eyes when he was ready (oh, we had many arguments before he was ready to see the truth, but that's all they were--arguments and nothing more). He saw so much suffering in med school due to our broken medical system, he saw how the evangelical church we were members of (went to one of its colleges, even) was heading down a dark path and agreed to change churches, he started talking and listening to people who disagreed with him, and slowly, his eyes opened up to what the Republican Party really does and stands for. Of course, his parents haven't changed and most likely never will, but he changed--on his own at his own pace.

Your friend sounds like he's on the path. He genuinely likes and respects you and so has to square that with his beliefs. Back off and be gentle for awhile. It sounds like he'll come around.

[SmokingJacket]

21. He seems like a nice guy.

There **ARE** nice Republicans, though it's easy to forget that on DU. (I think they're rare... but that's my personal bias.)

I keep my politics out of my personal life because I don't want to hurt people in my family I disagree vehemently (violently) with. I agree with him about the remark in the Christmas card -- if you're friends with someone, you don't dismiss their values and what they care about.

I understand those DUers who believe in proselytizing for progressivism at every turn, but I don't do it.

I'd send him a similarly kind and respectful note back. Why not? (I do see the temptation to send him a picture of a screaming Iraq child, but who knows... if you're nice you might be able to drag him back from the Dark Side. You catch more flies with honey, ya know.)

[Nadienne]

25. It seems to me that

some religious people have a hard time distinguishing between doing what Jesus would do, and using religion to further personal agendas.

I don't know how I would respond to your friend. He reminds me of one of my sisters, who is a pretty nice person, and usually fairly reasonable, but when we get on the subject of religion, there is nothing I can say that doesn't eventually result in her telling me that she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. (This usually happens right around when she starts contradicting herself and I point it out.)

I can kinda sympathize. I am criticizing what she thinks is the very foundation for who she is. It must feel like a personal attack. It must feel like I'm trying to convince her that she is evil for supporting prayer in public schools (etc, etc). But I know she's not evil; just deceived.

I don't know if this is true of your friend, but it is true of my sister. The opinions of others hold a lot of weight with her. She doesn't want anyone to think she's a sinner, and so she doesn't sin. But because of this, she lets her peers decide what's a sin and what's not. For instance, if her peers thought it was a sin to vote against Bush, then she wouldn't vote against Bush.

If this is true of your friend, maybe you should point out that Jesus was hated by his peers. When Pontius Pilate brought Jesus (and Barabas) before the crowd, the crowd wanted Jesus crucified, and Barabas spared. If someone came before the masses and said, "Prostitutes and tax collectors (and g/b/l/t, etc) are people, too, and by the way, rich people need to shed all their money before they can enter heaven," the masses - prompted by the corporate, conservative media - would cry for that person's death. Or at least some of the masses would...

[Jacobin]

26. Typical RW crap

Instead of talking about issues: failed IraqNam, idiotic conquest of world neo-con bullshit, destroying economy, loss of dollar's value and on and on and on.....instead, he goes into this long diatribe about how he feels offended by the tone of the discussion.

Well, fuck me. I'm offended by RW policies that kill, maim, steal and destroy this country. If he expects a 'thank you very much for fucking the country' from dems, he's fucking delusional.

[callous taoboy]

33. I know-

What you're saying, this also raises my hackles.

[yella_dawg]

27. Just an observation

You label him a "Me"-publican. I think that is very appropriate. There is a strong current of "poor me" running through his message. That will be difficult to counter, if everything is assumed to be an attack on "me".

Second, his defense of Fox and identification of PBS, NPR, et. al. as liberal news indicates he's swallowed a lot of Kool Aid. Until he realizes the difference between National Petroleum Radio and a real liberal slant, you are not going to reach him. That might be the first place to start. Making sure he knows the difference between the whole story and the slanted, often missing, news available through MediaCorp.

Good Luck!

[izzybeans]

29. If his faith is the centerpiece of his existence

then ask him to pay attention to what Bush does and not what he says. Professions of faith are one thing but living rightoeously is another. Ask him to dig out of the bible the passages that justify his policies and those that do not. Sit them side by side and reflect upon what has happened in the past four years. Does this person (B*s*) really believe in the teachings of the bible-especially those they believe to be of Christ? He needs to have a comprehensive list of policies and their impact though. I bet this person will get there all on his own armed with those things.

[DireStrike]

31. Exactly - * is clearly unchristian.

[mitchum]

30. May he soon be with "his creator"...

since he does seem to be a nice guy

[DireStrike]

32. "Just drop it casually in"

I wonder how he thinks non-christians feel when * just casually drops his religious beliefs into his speeches. How are non-christians supposed to feel? Discounted, because they obviously picked the wrong religion?

[callous taoboy]

34. My sincere thanks

for all of your feedback. I am in the middle of a lengthy reply to my friend. I am borrowing a lot of the info posted in this thread.
Again, thanks. Maybe we can convert this guy.