Positive aspects of humanity's looming "death spiral"...

[IrateCitizen]

Yesterday, Beetwasher posted a thread lamenting humanity's "death spiral" -- what with the spectres of endless wars, ecological collapse, global climate crisis, peak oil, and all. As a contrast, I'd like to take a moment to focus on some of the positives of this (and yes, I'm being completely serious here).

Many of us here on DU are on the front edge of this, simply because we recognize the convergence of all of the warning signs approaching at breakneck speed. Therefore, we might be in a better position to deal with it when it does happen.

First off, as someone who hasn't started a family yet (outside of getting married and having a dog), I fully sympathize with the dread that many feel toward the thought of bringing children into a world such as this. To that I say, times were tough in the Dark Ages, but people still brought children into the world. Times have been tough in places like Rwanda recently, but you still have people bringing children into the world. If anything, it is MORE important that those of us who understand the need for a true shift in "values" raise children to be reflective of that. Life is not meant to be easy, and we shouldn't let looming difficulties prevent us from experiencing some of the greatest joy that people can experience -- the raising of children.

Second, while the potential for life becoming shorter and more brutish is definitely there, so is the possibility of life becoming more fulfilling. Imagine a world in which there is no longer electronic mass media, and where we actually have to base our recreation on activities that involve interacting with others. Imagine a world in which the acquisition of wealth suddenly becomes a lot less important than cooperation and a spirit of community. While I can't say I look forward to the more difficult aspects of life in such a scenario, I DO look forward to the possibility of getting back to a more fulfilling existence.

Finally, expanding on my second point, I have to say that there will still be the little things that bring us joy in life. We'll still have beautiful sunsets. We'll still have songbirds singing on a cool spring morning. We'll still have dogs to welcome into our homes that give us a neverending source of affection and entertainment. We'll still have mountain vistas and rolling rivers. And perhaps, we might just be able to NOTICE all of these things a little more, without all of the distractions.

Remember, we really have little control over the future as individuals. The best we can do is to do the best with the time we're given. Lamenting over its hardships will accomplish nothing. Preparing for it, and looking for the instances to enjoy what life has to offer and living in those moments -- that's what the journey really is all about.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Or this:

The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement



"May we live long and die out"

http://www.vhemt.org/

[mattclearing]

Thanks for this.

I think it is important to find the positive in obviously difficult times.

Thanks.

[bryant69]

2. Imagine going backwards

Hooray. The Republicans want to build a bridge to the 1900s and you want to build a bridge to the 1300s. Great! Is anybody interested in going forward?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Me.

[bryant69]

4. I looked at that website

That's not a futre, that's a grave.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. Just posted as an FYI.....I thought is was funny.

OHOT, unless humanity really changes its behavior, we are going to seriously fuck this planet for ALL lifeforms.

[IrateCitizen]

6. What an utter mischaracterization of my statement, Bryant...

Where did I say anything about "going back to the 1300's"? What I said, rather, was that if we DO find a relative collapse of a great deal of what we have come to know as "civilization", that hope is not lost. Personally, I see my proposal as a way of moving forward in the face of what many seem to see as a cause for complete despair.

Please tell me how our insatiable thirst for consumer junk is currently moving us forward. Please tell me how our longer working hours and less time spent with families and friends is moving us forward. Please tell me how our current ravaging of the environment -- to the point that some ecosystems, such as the North Sea, are on the verge of collapse -- is moving us forward.

If you have something substansive to offer, especially thoughts on a positive future in the face of possible calamity, then by all means -- let us know what it is. But if all you have are simplistic platitudes meant only to disparage others while failing to offer anything positive of their own merit, then don't expect to be taken seriously.

[bryant69]

7. I don't think it's all that off

But to be fair I'll let you pick any century prior to the 20th.

You say in your initial post "Imagine a world in which there is no longer electronic mass media, and where we actually have to base our recreation on activities that involve interacting with others. Imagine a world in which the acquisition of wealth suddenly becomes a lot less important than cooperation and a spirit of community." That sounds a lot like looking backword to a mythologized pre industial age to me.

No electronic mass media? No TV no Internet no Radio no Music Industry. Do we get to keep the technology to publish books? It's easy to forget but electronic media has provided positive things along with negative things. Like, for example, Democratic Underground. Or the Chemical Brothers (don't see how they are going to fit into a society without an Electronic Mass Media (and their latest album is hella tight)). Or Taxi, the Simpsons, Sienfeld and Cheers.

People are going to be just as greedy in this new society as they are in our society, although in a small community where everybody knows everybody else, there will be some brakes on how freely they can express their greed. Of course there will be brakes on a lot of other behaivors too. Like, say, Homosexuality. Look at how that flourished before our Mass Media and modern world.

Of course it seems unlikely that any of these new small tightnight communities are going to offer much in teh way of Fusion Cuisine.

As for the environment, I'm not going to argue that we don't need to make some serious changes there.

I'm sorry, I just think the hassles of living the society you seem to envision are worse than than the hassle of knowing that a lot of people are buying junk.

Bryant

[IrateCitizen]

8. OK, let me ask you this...

If we DO experience a significant ecological crisis, coupled with an attendant collapse of many of the systems and frameworks of modern civilization that we take for granted (i.e. electricity generation and distribution), how do you suppose there will be an electronic mass media? I'm not talking about rejecting these things -- I'm talking about a possible future in which they are no longer a possible reality, given the technology available to us.

Please don't do the disservice to everyone else on this thread by condescending to me about "allowing me to pick my century before the 20th". I'm not asking to go back in time. Hell, if I had my way, we'd move in the direction of becoming better stewards of the environment, moving away from "things" so much, develop greater community bonds -- while still seeking to improve and expand modern technology and communication (but in a much more earth-conscious manner). Somehow, though, I don't think any of us will be given the luxury of picking such a future.

As for the "greed" question, it's largely a reflection of the values that society places in higher regard. Since Western civilization places more regard on material wealth and power, then greed is a natural outcome. In societies that place more regard on altruism, wisdom and respect for elders, greed does not hold nearly as much sway. It WILL always be there, but there's absolutely no reason its status can't be seriously diminished in the heirarchy of values.

I wrote this thread as a corollary to Beetwasher's one that centered on despair. I apologize for attempting to approach the same topic from a perspective of guarded optimism.

[Old Mouse]

13. Don't dis pessimism

it is really the highest form of romanticism, a constant belief that things could have been better than this.

To address your question, the technologies we are creating today are so powerful, compact, and in some instances self-contained that I believe communication will stay somewhat intact as the rest of our infrastructure begins collapse. Much of the Internet will remain intact as shipping of real goods, food, building supplies, becomes more difficult.

Airplane travel will be the first thing to go.

[bryant69]

17. IF society is doomed, than it is doomed

I agree that in that case we will have to make the best of what's still around.

Could you give me an example of a society that places more regard on Altruism, wisdom and respect for elders? But at any rate that argument sounds a lot to me like "If everyone would repent of their sins and giver their hearts to Christ, imagine what kind of world we would live in." I agree that might be very nice, and I hope it does happen someday--but i don't expect to happen any time soon.

Your apology at the end is more condescending than my comment. The society you are describing to me sound a lot like a romanticized version of past societies, as I stated.

But at the end, you would probably like to live in a small town with little contact with the outside world where the values you hold dear are enshrined in the hearts of the community. I personally am a city person, I always have been, and I always will be. So the idea of civilization collapsing holds no hope for me.

[IrateCitizen]

18. Our mutual condescension aside...

And I readily admit that my final comment in my last post was rather snide -- but then again, so were your posts about "rolling back to the 13th century" followed up by "to be fair, I'll allow you your pick of any century before the 20th". Granted, we each consider the other's jibe to be more condescending because we are on the receiving end of it.

The closest society that I am describing here is essentially what the Iroquois Confederation had prior to the settlement of the Eastern Seaboard by white Europeans. Is some of this romanticism, a longing for a past that never really existed? Of course. But I prefer to view it as a hope for the future (hope, by its very nature, tends to be utopian) based on a viable lesson from the past, a lesson from a culture that was decidedly different than the Western European culture we live in now.

To dwell on "altruism" a bit longer, perhaps that isn't the correct word. I prefer the term "enlightened self-interest", because it reflects the reality that as we help our neighbors do better, we can do better as a result. And as for what you said here: I agree that might be very nice, and I hope it does happen someday--but i don't expect to happen any time soon. I too hope it some day becomes a reality. I don't honestly expect it to during my lifetime. But that hope for a better future for generations after I'm gone is what will propel me in this direction. Otherwise, that hope is useless, if all it does is compel us to gaze wistfully on an alternative future that we spend time regretting we will likely never see.

But at the end, you would probably like to live in a small town with little contact with the outside world where the values you hold dear are enshrined in the hearts of the community. I personally am a city person, I always have been, and I always will be. So the idea of civilization collapsing holds no hope for me.

Well, you're correct on me, except for one thing. I would certainly want contact with the outside world. As for you, if you refuse to hold on to hope no matter what the future holds for you, then all is certainly lost, anyway....

[el_gato]

9. You obviously don't understand what IC is talking about

[bryant69]

14. Thank you for contributing

[el_gato]

10. Conerning peak oil specifically

Can you imagine a world where people don't ride around wrapped in thousands of pounds of steal? Where people actually get out and
begin to know thier neighbors. Where tons of plastic junk can no
longer be shipped from China just so people have something to spend
money on as a way to fill the empty void that is due to living an alienated existence.

I can and it does not sound so bad to me.

[IrateCitizen]

11. I recall the quote, I believe from Einstein, at the first atomic bomb test

I think it was along the lines of, "It has become painfully apparent that our technology has vastly outpaced our humanity."

As much as I don't relish the thought, perhaps the only thing that can really save humanity would be a situation in which our technology was vastly reduced, and we were forced to concentrate equally upon our humanity.

I dunno -- just thinking out loud here. I just wanted to add that disclaimer before any other posters accuse me of wanting to go back to the 10th or 11th century.

[Old Mouse]

12. A story of human nature

From memory, so the facts may be somewhat Dan Rather-esque, but the message is genuine.

Global fish stocks are down some 75% over the last decade, with overfishing and pollution major reasons for the decline. As a result, many nations quickly enacted fishing quotas to allow ocean stocks to replenish before particular species became extinct.

Cod has represented this problem more than any other fish.

If harvesting of this fish continues unabated, it will be gone within five to ten years. Yet cod fishermen, from all over he globe, aggressively protest, sometimes violently, all governmental attempts to place quotas to protect the stocks. These fishermen are not stupid or cognitively impaired people, yet they are DEMANDING the right to destroy their industry and put themselves out of work - to protect their JOBS.

This stubborn, short-sighted selfishness, even to the point of total self destruction, is part of human nature.

[Terran]

15. I think it's clear

that our current mindless consumer society is just as bad in its way as whatever may result in the near future from ecological and economic collapse. There's a middle ground in there somewhere, and if it ever comes to pass it will likely only do so after a long long time of great suffering and mass death, the end of our civilization birthing a new one. If the happy medium is achieved, that'll be a good thing...but no one here will live to see it, and neither will our children. And in that interim, examples of human good and cooperation will be hard to find.

[Taxloss]

16. I don't see a death spiral. We are spoiled children.

I see difficult times. But no death spiral. We are the most privileged, the healthiest, the wealthiest and the best educated generation yet to walk to face of the planet Earth. We smell better and live longer. Our forebears had polio. We have iPods.

Yes, times will get worse, a lot worse, for a while. But it will NOT repeat NOT be the end of the world. We will just have to learn to live more simply and to work harder. Our lives will still be appreciably better than those of our great-grandparents.

And then things will get better again, and we will be better, and society will be better, because we will have survived together, learned together, worked together and recovered together and we will not entrust our society to the robber barons again.

[Beetwasher]

19. True, Thanks For Posting

What?!! No TV after Armageddon???????!!!!!! :evilgrin:

I'll never give up trying. But I'm also too much of a realist to deny the possibility that it may all come to naught...I ended my post w/ smell the roses for a reason...Do the best you can with the time you've got and try to enjoy it...That doesn't mean stop trying to do good, but rather do good, pay attention and appreciate what you've got, because if the "end" is near, we have been very fortunate as humans to have experienced what we have...Some of the heights humanity has achieved are truly wonderous and we should appreciate them, because, if we're entering a dark ages, it may be some time before humans reach this level again (if at all)...

[Tace]

20. IrateCitizen -- I'm Kicking This Thread Because I Posted A Reply...

To Beetwasher's post, and it seems like these posts complement one another, although each actually is essentially positive. Cheers