Scumbag Colo. Prof: Implies 9-11 Victims Deserved Their Fate

[UdoKier]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/education/article/0,1299,DRMN_957_3501617,00.html

CU prof's essay sparks dispute

Ward Churchill says 9/11 victims were not innocent people

By John C. Ensslin, Rocky Mountain News
January 27, 2005

A University of Colorado professor has sparked controversy in New York over an essay he wrote that maintains that people killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were not innocent victims.

(EDIT)

"As for those in the World Trade Center," the essay said, "well, really, let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break."

The essay goes on to describe the victims as "little Eichmanns," referring to Adolph Eichmann, who executed Adolph Hitler's plan to exterminate Jews during World War II.

And so it begins again. Idiot professor makes idiotic remark, and the right-wing media use it to imply that most liberals think this way. I know for a fact that not even most members of the supposedly "extreme left-wing" DU think that way...


Anyway, thanks Professor Churchill, for giving Limbutt 30 minutes of material for today's show!

[ck4829]

1. They were innocent

The only guilty parties are the terrorists and those who tried to take advantage of it in their campaigns.

[el_gato]

15. All of you go do a little research before you engage in knee-jerking

here is an essay of what he has to say on the matter.

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html

[Dhalgren]

61. You're right. There is much more to this essay than what is

being reacted to here. And I don't think you could label this man as a "liberal". He sees America the way he sees America - not the way Americans want to see themselves. I have no argument with his views. I may not agree with everything he says, but I understand why and how he arrives at his conclusions.

[clem_c_rock]

17. That is if you by the whole idea that PNAC and co didn't play a big part

in orchestrating the whole thing.

They were innocent victims sacrificed for a Strausian agenda...

[fudge stripe cookays]

2. Freeper logic

The Sept. 11 attacks were in retaliation for the Iraqi children who were killed in a 1991 bombing raid and for economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations following the Persian Gulf War.


Once again, WARD. The hijackers were Saudis. The children were Iraqi. No connection. Never has been, never will be.

FSC

[Dhalgren]

3. I don't think that this professor is necessarily "liberal"...

[UdoKier]

6. I doubt it.

But that's how he will be presented on Limbo, O'Liely, HANNITY & colmes, etc. etc.

[MindPilot]

10. Right, in the echo chamber...

ALL college profs are liberal commie anarchists who want to have abortions and practice witchcraft while recruiting our children into the gay lifestyle. Oh almost forgot; they love Saddam too.

[Canuckistanian]

9. Academic troll?

If this was a professor who wrote this, he was very uninformed.

You can take his point two ways - that Iraqis themselves did this (wrong) or that the Arab world was outraged at the bombing and sanctions against Iraq (again wrong, if you listen to Al Qaeda justifications for 9/11 attacks).

On the other hand, if he's risking his career on this to try to imitate a liberal and give the RW media more ammunition, he's finished in academia.

Either way, bad career move.

[Lautremont]

4. I don't see him saying they deserved it.

Much issue may be taken with what he says, but don't put quotation marks around something he didn't actually say.

[UdoKier]

7. Done.

nt

[Lautremont]

12. salut! n/t

[el_gato]

19. the article is intended to cause knee-jerk reactions like you see here

[rinsd]

24. The essay is worse....

He includes under his collective guilt umbrella even peace activists.

He then had an addendum where he cites that if it weren't the ghosts of Iraqi children it may have been the Japanese(among others cited) for our firebombing.

For a man into the concept collective guilt to give a free pass to a nation that built an empire and wholesale slaughtered millions, well you just have to shake your head.

[el_gato]

30. He's a native american

so i think he knows quite well how a nation that built an empire and wholesale slaughtered millions. thank you very much.

[rinsd]

42. Okay..

Because he makes the argument for collective guilt and if a people perpetuate death they should be surprised when death visits them. In fact they may deserve even if they acted against it.

In his addemdum to his remarks, he makes special note of the firebombings and of course the twin nuclear bombings.

Since the Japanese people supported the start of war in China and its expansion across the Pacific, wouldn't their suffering be a natural consequence according to his theory of collective guilt.

Sounds like a right wing bogey man to me complete with the Blame America only tag.

On Edit: I just realized that my subject line read "Then he's stupid as well" came on the heels of your subject line that "He's Native American". While I was refering to his collective guilt theory and how he later ignores it for the sake of ranting, I didn't realize the how bad the two subject lines looked stacked on each other.

[el_gato]

45. You totally missed the key point here

He did not say that the janitors or the firemen deserved to die. What he pointed out was the economic hit men like John Perkins were the targets.

"Basically what we were trained to do and what our job is to do is to build up the American empire. To bring -- to create situations where as many resources as possible flow into this country, to our corporations, and our government, and in fact we’ve been very successful. We’ve built the largest empire in the history of the world. It's been done over the last 50 years since World War II with very little military might, actually. It's only in rare instances like Iraq where the military comes in as a last resort. This empire, unlike any other in the history of the world, has been built primarily through economic manipulation, through cheating, through fraud, through seducing people into our way of life, through the economic hit men. I was very much a part of that."
John Perkins

Now getting back to your statement regarding China yes the suffering of those who were involved in the rape of China would deserve to suffer as a consequence of their actions. Did the innocent children of Nagasaki deserve to be incinerated in a nuclear blast? Fuck NO!

[rinsd]

47. Collective guilt for Americans is okay but not for the Japanese..,

Thanks for clearing that up.

[el_gato]

49. I did not say that but hey it's a good way to avoid the issue

thanks for playing

[rinsd]

No, you lionized some else who did, stating how right they were. (nt)

[el_gato]

57. exactly where?

[rinsd]

60. You started a thread casting the prof as a victim..

You've repeatedly stated that if people just read the essay there wouldn't be a kneejerk reaction.

Here's a a post stating that what the prof ranted about was the truth

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x30995#31124

You also made numerous statements of support of the collective guilt theory(at least applied to Americans) but alot of your crap got deleted on the original thread.

[UdoKier]

26. If so, it will be a resounding success.

So successful, it will probably result in the loss of his job.

Ah, but poking at the sensitivities of people like me who "just don't get it" will undoubtedly be well worth it.

[el_gato]

34. This came out right after 9/11 yet the Crocky Mountain news

just now reports on it with the idea of stirring up shit,

yea, no agenda there.

[UdoKier]

36. The report was done because his upcoming speech is being objected to.

It's a legitimate story.

Maybe he should be allowed to speak. He can clarify what he meant, and just exactly who he felt deserved to fall to a horrifying death, and who was innocent, and then he can take questions from the audience, hopefully packed with 9-11 victims' families.

[el_gato]

40. Well I guess as long as there is one degree of separation

we can all pretend our hands our clean. The real anger of the 9/11 families ought to be directed towards those who conduct U.S. foreign policy because they are the ones who have fomented this problem. But again, how long can the American people pretend the actions of our government are not our reposibility?

[UdoKier]

44. TONS of 9-11 families ARE angry with the gov't and Bush.

And a lot of them opposed this war.

But I suppose they should just nod in agreement that to some degree, their loved ones got what what was coming to them?

UGH.

http://www.villagevoice.com/books/0337,ferguson,46886,10.html

There are countless other examples.

[el_gato]

46. And rightly so

Churchill didn't say the janitors and firemen and police men deserved to die in this. In fact he said the opposite. But what he did say was that the targets on that day were the people exactly like John Perkins.
Those who help finance the corporate death machine. Whether you agree with that or not is one thing but you've got to at least acknowledge what he actually said not what you think he said.

You can listen to him actually say it here:
http://www.alternativetentacles.com/octopodes/789/rEg0yQb-lReo5ye6VPt/Ward_Churchill-Exemption_Is_Ove.mp3

[MindPilot]

5. that is so far out there, I wonder if it's real

It sounds so, so, Rovian. When "some people say..." just isn't good enough, you have to actually ceate a "some people".

[geek tragedy]

8. This is three years old.

Granted, the guy is still a hateful asshat. But, still.

[Democrats_win]

11. Wingnuts were looking for a cartoon character to bash.

The New Yorker has some great toons.

[AndECeasers]

13. What an idiot!!

[RuleofLaw]

14. Before commenting

Please do your self a favor and read the whole essay.

[el_gato]

18. oh, they can't be bothered with actually reading the whole essay

it's much easier to spew reactionary responses to an intentially incendiary headline. Don't you think?

:eyes:

[UdoKier]

20. I read it. It was claptrap.

Hemming and hawing about whether these people were innocent is a cop-out.

Those people in the WTC were INNOCENT. PERIOD.

Same goes for the 100K Iraqi civilians murdered by Dumbya in his invasion. The fact that Saddam was a thug who attacked neighboring countries DOES NOT MAKE THEM CULPABLE. Neither does America's foreign policy make every civilian living under it culpable.

Is US foreign policy partly responsible for provoking 9-11? Possibly, but NOTHING can JUSTIFY it.

[comsymp]

21. That's your opinion.

Mine is that there was a lot of truth in it and, though I didn't agree with all points, it was definitely a worthwhile read.

[WoodrowFan]

32. amazing

that gets the prize for most morally blind post on the Du in, I don't know, years maybe.

good job :yourock:

next up, explaining how rape victims "had it coming"!!!


bye bye

[el_gato]

37. it is amazing how you try to mischaracterize what was actually said

[comsymp]

39. Please elaborate

I'm interested in your explanation of how "a worthwhile read" = "she had it coming" (or is morally blind, for that matter).

And FWIW, I've been "on the Du" for years and have seen some amoral shite; as late as yesterday, in fact. No comparison that I can see... however, since you, as a member of the Prize Committee, have performed your notification duties I'll eagerly await my forthcoming prize!

[el_gato]

22. Let me ask you something Udokier

Are the people who make the bombs that are dropped on the iraqi civilians innocent?

After all, those bombs are made right here in the good ol' USA.

[UdoKier]

25. No. My mother is one of them.

She works for Raytheon, and I do have a problem with it.

The Janitors, cooks and firemen who were murdered senselessly in the WTC WERE innocent. If they had any connection to UD hegemony, I'm quite sure they were unaware of it.

If you are going to continue justifying that slaughter, I'd appreciate your not addressing me anymore.

[el_gato]

27. This is very interesting thanks for the response because

In the comments made by Ward Churchill regarding your original post he said the exact same thing you did, i.e. The Janitors, cooks and firemen who were murdered senselessly in the WTC WERE innocent. If you actually took out to time to investigate what he said you would have found this out but no you just went with the article and never bothered to investigate it further. In fact, he said that he didn't think those people were targets at all but they died in the process. I am not interested in justifying anyting but I am interested in making people understand why things happen.

[UdoKier]

33. That doesn't mean I think my mom should be murdered.

There is a big distinction between someone's hands being dirty (we have to feed our kids!) and being a soldier on the frontlines or a military leader.

I disagree that anybody in that building deserved what happened.

You're doing the same thing Ariel Sharon does every time he blows up a whole city block full of Palestinians or bulldozes people's homes. You remind me of the folks from "United for Peace & Justice", who conned a bunch of us in Miami into coming to a "Peace Protest" before the Iraq invasion, only to turn the whole thing into a huge anti-Israel "remember Jenin" rally. TOTALLY one-sided.

Murder is murder, no matter who commits it.

[el_gato]

35. I agree with you but

the "it's just my job" gambit was rejected by the U.S. during the Nuremberg trials. Don't blame me I'm just reporting the facts.

[geek tragedy]

50. He called murder victims "little Eichmanns." He's a piece of shit. As is

anyone who agrees with him.

[Touchdown]

16. He's got to be a RW plant.

CU was targetted by Gov. Bill Owens for Ideology cleansing he calls "political diversity" and has recruited former commie gasbag/snakeoil salesman David Horrorwitz to start blacklists of "liberal professors". He has a legion of brownshirt "students" to rat on anybody guilty of teaching individual thought.

[el_gato]

23. You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about

please go investigate a subject before you embarass yourself

[Touchdown]

28. Anybody that reads my post will know that this is

the first time I heard of this particular essay or professor. I was merely speculating and it was obvius to anybody who comprehends.

However, Horowitz and Owens have targetted CU for liberal witch hunting. I do know about that.

So why don't you criticize those you KNOW haven't a clue, and get bent!

[el_gato]

29. I am glad you admit it anyway.

as far as getting bent, well that's another story. :)

[Touchdown]

31. i admitted nothing.

My post was obvious, and because you didn't get it, I'm not conceding your lack of intelligence to your childish gotcha games. Bye.

[el_gato]

38. you admitted you didn't know what you were talking about

that's all

[Touchdown]

48. And, praytell what was I talking about?

[el_gato]

51. read your first post

:eyes:

[Touchdown]

53. I know what I said. I just want to know if you did.

I can do that too. :eyes:

And FYI. I do know what I'm talking about...

http://studentsforacademicfreedom.org/archive/2003/Denverpost100103.html

http://www.denverpost.com/cda/article/print/0,1674,36%257E53%257E1626482,00.html

http://newmedia.colorado.edu/silverandgold/messages/2424.html

[el_gato]

54. and what you said was as wrong as could possibly be

[Touchdown]

55. What was it that I said was wrong?

Go back one post rad the links if you think I'm so wrong.

[el_gato]

56. "he's got to be a RW plant"

I'm saying you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

[Touchdown]

58. Oh' so you take only ONE PART of my words, OUT OF CONTEXT...

and you then make a knowledge value judgement on my personality basing it on those few, out of context words...while at the same time catigating everyone else on this thread of doing the very same thing you did to me, did I get that right?

Wake up and smell your own hypocrisy, Pal!

[Arkana]

41. What an ass

By no stretch of the imagination did the 9/11 victims deserve what happened to them. Now this asshole has paved the way for Insannity and OxyRush to start bashing liberals about 9/11 again.

[el_gato]

43. yeah, after all we are not reponsible for anything

I only work here.

[maxsolomon]

52. Al Queda did not consider the WTC victims innocent.

So "They deserved it" is besides the point. A similar point is being made here.

I believe OBL's "letter to america" says, basically, that our taxes directly fund the oppression & murder of arabs, both directly & through our proxy army in Israel, and because we do not stop it, we share in the guilt. Our infidel army was stationed in SA, and we allowed that, too. The concept of the Umma allows OBL to claim that the death of an Arab child, Palestinian or Iraqi, is a crime against Arabs, so a citizen of SA could strike back in their name legitimately. Therefore, the WTC attack was justified.

The Pentagon was/is a legitimate military target. All iraqi buildings of similar use were. I think many americans know that, which is why the outrage over that attack is nowhere near as high as that over the WTC.

[donheld]

59. I think chickens may have been coming home to roost

but those people didn't deserve what they got. Innocent people usually do get hurt in the process of "chickens coming home." Most americans never seem to think we as a country will reap what we as a country sow.