They All Died in Vain

[gristy]

Some interesting comments from a Mr. Cutter from the Magic City News in Maine. And some biting criticism for Senator Boxer.

www.magic-city-news.com/article_2901.shtml

They All Died in Vain
By Charles Cutter (www.cuttersway.com)
Jan 27, 2005, 19:24

<snip>
In the final analysis, it is another comment from Senator Boxer that sheds a clarifying light on the nature of war itself: Referring to our "brave, incredible soldiers" in Iraq, she said, "not one of them died in vain because when your Commander in Chief sends you to fight in a war, it is the most noble of things to do that."

This statement is as disturbing as any of the deceptions attributed to Dr. Rice or Mr. Bush. Nobility, according to Senator Boxer, is conferred through blind obedience to obvious lies and deception. Nobility can be conferred by killing, and being killed, in the course of an illegal war.

"Not one of them died in vain?" They all died in vain.

George W. Bush and Condoleezza Rice may start wars, but the glorification of wars starts with the attitude expressed by Senator Boxer - and the editorial board of the Washington Post - that every soldier is a hero, a noble creature of courage and patriotism deserving "undiminished honor."
<snip>

A soldier's medals are merely seeds for the next conflict.

[cry baby]

1. I disagree with Mr. Cutter. Sen. Boxer has it right in my opinion.

How do you think it would make you feel if your son was killed in this war and someone said that it was in vain? No matter how a parent feels about the war, (and I know some parents of soldiers that hate this war) I'm sure they would tell you that no soldier that dies in the service of his or her country dies in vain.

[purduejake]

3. Tell me how the war is a success...

or what we got out of it, if it's not all in vain. Hell, we aren't even getting the cheap oil we wanted. It's incredibly harsh, but true.

[cry baby]

4. No where in my post did I say that the war is a success. BTW, the

success or failure of the mission is not what makes the sacrifice valid. These brave people are fighting on the orders of their commander in chief (POS that he is) cause they took an oath to do so. Just because I hate this war and believe, like you, that it is an illegal war, doesn't take anything away from the soldiers that are fighting for their lives.

[Lerkfish]

8. The idiocy of the CIC does not diminish the valor of the troops,

In fact, IMHO, they are even MORE the heroes for continuing to make sacrifices, EVEN THOUGH they are being sent on a fool's errand.

I wish to GOD they were not sent, but for the majority of soldiers*, its perhaps the ultimate act of honor.

(*not every soldier acquits himself honorably, but you get my drift)

[purduejake]

40. I never questioned the valor or bravery or heroism of the troops...

but they are dying in vain. There is absolutely no reason for them being there other than to cause problems. That is not their fault and they are very admirable in following orders. However, it is in vain.

[Lerkfish]

41. sorry, I was speaking to the topic in general.

no slight intended.

[SemperEadem]

36. to wit..

The average soldier that Boxer is talking about doesn't make the policy to instigate the war.

[gristy]

5. But your point is that they didn't die in vain

because if it was said they did, their parents would disagree? That's not a valid reason at all to be able to say they did not die in vain. For a soldier to have not died in vain, his/her death would have to have been in the service of an honorable and noble purpose.

on edit: clarification of argument

[cry baby]

10. I understand what you are saying. I just disagree. We agree that

this war is not reasonable (an understatement). However, I have a different definition in my book of what is considered "dying in vain". I don't believe the soldiers in Viet Nam died in vain, either. That is just my opinion.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I know parents of soldiers and it would break their hearts for them to hear that their sons and daughters died in vain. (None of them have lost their children, thank God, and I hope with all my heart that they don't)

[Itsthetruth]

11. They Have Died In Vain.

You tell the parents who lost loved ones in Iraq or Vietnam the truth. Their son or daughter died in vain.

They did not lose their loves on behalf of some noble cause or great democratic purpose. They were simply used.

[cry baby]

12. No, I won't tell them that. If you get a chance to come face to face

with a parent or loved one that lost someone in the war, I hope you won't be heartless and say that, either. Besides, that is your truth, not mine, and probably not theirs.

[TankLV]

38. The truth simply is.

Whether one chooses to accept the truth is up to them.

Sometimes the truth does hit hard - especially when you've been lead to belive a lie.

I would never initiate such a discussion with such a person who has had their loved one give the ultimate sacrifice.

But if that person began to espouse and proclaim the lie that their loved one died for a noble purpose, I would certainly, gently, contest that lie.

Maybe if more persons were told that their loved ones have and are dying in vain, maybe then we could build their justified anger and direct it to stop this madness.

[TankLV]

37. They ALL died for a LIE - THEY DID DIE IN VAIN!

That's what I would tell her.

Just like when a loved one is murdered or struck by a drunk.

THEY DIED IN VAIN.

The truth is just the truth. How it is perceived can be painful, etc. depending on the recipient.

Any thinking person would understand that there is no insult to her or her loved one that was killed.

It is a simple statement of truth.

The dead on was innocent. Perfect. Doing their job well. Doing their job honerably, I hope (assuming they were not involved in any of the countless atrocities being committed by many of our troups).

The sole fact that it was all for a pack of lies, by CHICKENHAWKS, should be the object of anyone's anger. The anger should not be at the person expressing the truth, but the ones who enabled their loved one to be killed FOR A LIE!

THEY ALL ARE DYING IN VAIN!

[babylonsister]

2. A cop-out for the writer.

He has many opinions, but everyone is wrong. So basically, NO opinion.

[bvar22]

6. That was the ONE statement made by Boxer where

I felt she copped out, but I understand why she had to say it.

All of our soldiers have died in vain in Iraq.

[Burma Jones]

7. This has been bandied about for centuries............

From Shakespere's Henry V. Act IV, Scene 1


BATES
He may show what outward courage he will; but I
believe, as cold a night as 'tis, he could wish
himself in Thames up to the neck; and so I would he
were, and I by him, at all adventures, so we were quit here.


KING HENRY V
By my troth, I will speak my conscience of the king:
I think he would not wish himself any where but
where he is.


BATES
Then I would he were here alone; so should he be
sure to be ransomed, and a many poor men's lives saved.


KING HENRY V
I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
minds: methinks I could not die any where so
contented as in the king's company; his cause being
just and his quarrel honourable.


WILLIAMS
That's more than we know.


BATES
Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
the crime of it out of us.


WILLIAMS
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of
subjection.


KING HENRY V
So, if a son that is by his father sent about
merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the
imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be
imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a
servant, under his master's command transporting a
sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in
many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the
business of the master the author of the servant's
damnation: but this is not so: the king is not
bound to answer the particular endings of his
soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of
his servant; for they purpose not their death, when
they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to
the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all
unspotted soldiers: some peradventure have on them
the guilt of premeditated and contrived murder;
some, of beguiling virgins with the broken seals of
perjury; some, making the wars their bulwark, that
have before gored the gentle bosom of peace with
pillage and robbery. Now, if these men have
defeated the law and outrun native punishment,
though they can outstrip men, they have no wings to
fly from God: war is his beadle, war is vengeance;
so that here men are punished for before-breach of
the king's laws in now the king's quarrel: where
they feared the death, they have borne life away;
and where they would be safe, they perish: then if
they die unprovided, no more is the king guilty of
their damnation than he was before guilty of those
impieties

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

13. WRONG. As a CURRENT ARMY OFFICER

I strongly suggest you READ THE OATH soldiers take before you post such total incorrect garbage.

LTD's Husband

4th ID

[cry baby]

15. Please use your "big letters", Lynn. Are these that say that these

brave people die in vain heartless or what?

Edited to make sense of my thoughts

[LynnTheDem]

18. hi cry. this is Gary, Lynn's husband

She gave me hell already for using big letters in a post to some idiot already tonight lol.

If you died still believing you were doing the right and just thing for your country, then to you you didn't die in vain. But as you're dead it doesn't mean much.

Yes we're dying for nothing in Iraq. Yes we're dying in vain.

And those who died in Vietnam have now died in vain twice over;

The soldiers who died in Vietnam had a chance to have NOT died in vain; they could have died for PREVENTING troops from being lied into war ever again.

That didn't happen, so now they've died for double-in-vain.

Maybe third time's a charm. Maybe the troops now dead, dying & who will die in Iraq will down the road have died to prevent soldiers from ever again being lied into war. Right now, they're just dead & dying & will die needlessly for greedy bastards who couldn't allow the UN weapons teams the 90 days to finish their work.

When did impatience become a justified reason for war under the United States Constitution?

[merh]

26. Bless you Gary!

May I use your quote "When did impatience become a justified reason for war under the United States Constitution?"

Thank you sir for your service to our nation and for these very wise words. :hi: :hug: :loveya:

[LynnTheDem]

34. hi merh

The quote is all yours lol.

Thanks, and you are welcome. It's people like you who bring any light into the darkness, thank you.

[cry baby]

28. Hi Gary - I guess I see this in a more personal manner rather than

a "big picture" thing. I have not been in the military, but I heard something on Lou Dobbs show tonight that touched me. One soldier there said that they are really fighting, on a daily basis, to keep each other alive. That is, that they are trying to make sure that they and the guy or gal next to them make it home alive. I believe that there probably have been many, many soldiers that have given their life to save the guy next to them. So I choose to see this in a limited way, a personal way, and to give your life for that cause is noble.

[LynnTheDem]

33. That's always the case in war other than for some who lose themselves

You have no time to think about anything during battle when you realize there ar epeople with guns and they are trying to kill you. They want to kill you.

Then you are not thinking well of course they want to, look what we're doing to them. All you can do is try to stay alive, that's all you want to do, that's all that matters. Try to keep your men alive.

This is what too many people who have never seen war just can't comprehend.

As a human being, I sit here now and the thought of killing a young child is as abhorent to me as it is to you, to anyone with any humanity. But in war you don't have that luxury. You kill or you risk being killed and it does not matter to you if that person coming at you or firing at you if young or old, male or female. You don't even have time to think about it you just pull the trigger or die.

And then you come home and everyone around you is carrying on as usual, as if nothing has happened and to them nothing has happened, you're home, forget about it, "get over it". But to those coming home from war, you're no longer living on the same planet. You can't kill people and then come home and carry on with life as it was.

You come back a murderer. When you take someone's life, you are a murderer. Whether it's by accident, by sickness, or by war, it's murder. When the State executes a prisoner, the cause of death on the certificate is "murder". Some murders are deemed lawful; but they're murders just the same.

You just don't send America's kids to war to murder other people's kids, not unless it's a beyond-doubt dire imminent do-or-die threat. To send people's kids to kill others based on nothing but lies is the biggest betrayal possible.

It's not the soldiers, they themselves aren't dying in vain. Those who sent us to war for lies, they're the ones killing us in vain.

[cry baby]

35. I agree with everything you say here, it makes me sad to read it.

"It's not the soldiers, they themselves aren't dying in vain. Those who sent us to war for lies, they're the ones killing us in vain."

It's walking the razor's edge, but you say it clearly and I agree.

Thanks for your service to our country!:yourock:

[TankLV]

39. When you state it that way, then I can see how someone fighting in this

unjust immoral war can take that unjust and immoral thing and make their personal sacrifice a noble and honerable thing. In that case, I totally agree with you, that such a person, if killed in action, would not have died in vain.

There are so many individual experiences, that sometimes one has to step back a bit to see another view and listen to that view.

[stopbush]

14. Saying they didn't die in vain doesn't make it so.

I really don't care if they're soldiers or what their loved ones have to endure, the TRUTH is that they died in vain. Nothing good has been gained from this war, an illegal war founded and instigated on lies. Illegal is as illegal does. One may as well argue that some "good" comes from committing murder or disobeying traffic signals.

If one of those same soldiers was driving a jeep down a country road in the USA, ran off the road and hit a tree and was killed, we would say it was a needless, senseless death. No one would attempt to put lipstick on the proverbial pig by averring that "he died nobly advancing the cause of freedom." If a well-trained, patriotic soldier comes home from Iraq and dies via a heart attack shoveling snow, we wouldn't say his death was a "meaningful sacrifice" for the country. We would mourn the senseless waste of a life that was meant for something better.

Nothing good has come or will come from *'s illegal war. Our poor troops are pawns in the giggling ghoul's attempts at self-aggrandizement. Their ordered actions are not making the world safer. They are not advancing the cause of freedom or democracy. In fact, they are doing quite the opposite. It's not their fault, but it is their reality.

Senior citizens will be the next pawns in *'s obscene SS "privatization" scam. When they start dying, it will be just as senseless and just as pointless as were our troops' deaths in Iraq. No one in the country will be safer. No one in the country will be better off, except for *'s cabal of war and HMO profiteers.

That's the truth. What's so difficult about admitting the glaring, blatant truth of *'s Iraq mis-adventure?

[cry baby]

16. That is your version of the truth. None of us want soldiers to die,

but if they die, I will chose my version of the TRUTH, which is that a soldier that is fighting on orders of their commander in chief, they do not die in vain.

BTW, these guys aren't taking a drive in the country or shoveling snow. They are serving their country.

[stopbush]

19. Your "version" of the truth aligns quite nicely with *'s version.

That alone should give you pause.

[cry baby]

20. It also fits nicely with Boxer's version.

[stopbush]

23. That should give Boxer pause. n/t

[Starlight]

21. I agree. Pretending a noble cause exists doesn't make it true. n/t

[signmike]

29. "Ours not to reason why, Ours but to do or die..."

600 soldiers of the Light Brigade died for a mistake their commander would not admit to.

Died in vain? Some say no.

[JohnLocke]

32. LOL

We had the same thought (see my post below).

[JohnLocke]

31. Charge of the Light Brigade

Read by Robert Byrd on the Senate floor. Very relevant to today

"'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
--Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of death
--Rode the six hundred."

[rowire]

17. Soldiers Are Humans

To ascribe supenatural traits to soldiers is riduculous. However, I served with some great guys as well as some slugs. The military is a cross-section of America.

We cannot forget, however, that our ability to sit here and type anything we wish is in some part due to the Veterans who served. It is a noble calling that is sometimes used by political leaders for immoral purposes. It is not the fault of the men and women serving.

[stopbush]

22. I couldn't agree more. We owe much to our vets. We owe much to

the peacemakers, as well. Yes, we sit here and type from the safety of our homes due in large part to their sacrifices.

But does any of that relate to the illegal war in Iraq? They were no threat. They had no WsMD. Are the sacrifices being made in Iraq *right now* insuring my freedoms and my ability to sit here and type this? In truth, those actions may be doing the opposite. When we finally pull out of Iraq, will it be "over?" Or will we have decades of terror to look forward to, blowback aimed at our country and its citizenry in response to *'s crusade du jour?

Maybe *'s Bible brigade should be a little more concerned about the sins of the father being visited upon future generations than the sexual preferences of a cartoon sponge.

[LynnTheDem]

24. (Gary here again)

I can tell you who I blame. I don't blame the US government. Politicians lie. They all do. All the time. We all know this and it's a standard well-known joke; how do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving.

America was founded on BY THE PEOPLE. It's the people's duty to monitor everything the government does. If we want to sit back and let the government do whatever they want, we are a dictatorship not a democracy.

I blame the citizens of America. All those, right and left, who supported this invasion.

I'm supposed to die defending Americans, but Americans couldn't be bothered to ask questions of a bunch of politicians. Couldn't be bothered to make sure my men had enough rifles. Or body armor. Or even bullets. We ran out of rifles, had to use confiscated Iraqi AK-47s. And when this made headline news we were ordered not to use them any more; it "didn't look good". Sure we'll just use sticks no problem.

Because many of my fellow Americans couldn't even be bothered to fully and openly debate and discuss, in an adult manner, the facts before launching an invasion, or give the UN the 90 days to finish their weapons inspections. They armchair warmongered and told everyone else to just shut up.

They didn't give one shit about my life and the lives of my fellow soldiers. They still don't.

Moore asked "will they ever forgive us".

Me? No. Never.

[ashmanonar]

27. well put.

if bush and his cronies have taken america, it's bc we've given it to them on a silver plate. same concept as with the japanese buyout of the 90's. they couldn't understand that we would bitch about japanese nationals buying american land and business when we were selling. bushco seems to have the same mentality: if you're selling, we're buying. and, of course, the "no news is good news" mentality: if they don't hear from anyone, or if they don't listen, they don't have to worry about us.

for right or wrong, this is our mess to clean up. not the republicans, or the democrats' mess. OURS. everyone's.

[Lexingtonian]

25. Cutter is wrong

These people- American and Iraqi and such- have not died in vain.

They have died for vanity's sake, though. So far.

[Lisabtrucking]

30. They did die in vain. They were sent too fight a lie, a lie is a lie.

Bush has our soldiers blood on his hands, so they did die in vain. They should never have been sent there in the first place.