For those of you who think DUers want failure in Iraq, here's the deal:

[Bouncy Ball]

It seems that some posters on DU this morning think that DU wants Iraqis to die, want more bloodshed, and want the whole thing to fail.

That is disingenuous at best, extremely dishonest, and I have noticed a narrowing of scope sight (excuse the pun) among these posters, to the point that they are ONLY seeing THE ELECTION and NONE of the events that have led to this day. I think some reminders are in order.

(Other DUers, please feel free to jump in and add any events I have missed. So many mistakes were made in this FUBAR situation, it's hard to keep track of them all.)

1. Justification for the war was that we were THREATENED by Iraq's WMDs. Turns out they have no WMDs. That ALONE makes this war immoral and unjust and every drop of blood spilled unnecessary. That fact ALONE is a crying shame.

2. We created the monster that was SH. That was never acknowledged by the bush administration (and many of the same people giving him money, weapons, and shaking his hand are the SAME people who constructed this unnecessary war). That fact might have been lost on a lot of American sheeple, but NOT on the rest of the world and not on too many Iraqis. They aren't stupid.

3. Not enough troops were committed to be successful by any definition of the term, thus endangering both the troops and the Iraqis.

4. Power and security vaccuum was created shortly after the invasion and has never been properly rectified, especially the security vaccuum. If anything, it's gotten worse.

5. Troops were not properly equipped from the word go. Another crying fucking shame.

6. bush declaring victory in May of 2003 only angered and emboldened Iraqis AND the foreigners who had flooded in (thanks to our security vaccuum). Which leads me to...

7. Iraq is now FAR less stable and far more dangerous than it ever was under Saddam Hussein. Of course we think of SH and automatically think of an evil man, but try to see it from the everyday Iraqi's point of view. Stability, then no stability. NOW, they have to not only contend with the US troops, but ALSO with foreigners who know a good opportunity when they see one and have flooded into Iraq. SO instead of just having to deal with ONE boogeyman (SH) they HAVE TWO NOW. Good for the Iraqis, eh? Oh yeah, they're just LOVING this.

8. All the fuckups with the provisional government--too many for me to even list right now. Chalabi ring a bell for anyone? Geez Louise.

9. Again on the Iraqis aren't stupid note: they KNOW this election is a sham. There might be a tiny percentage who honestly don't think it's a sham and then a few more who know it is but hope for the best anyway, but most of them can read the writing on the wall. They know an occupation when they see it and so would you if you were in their shoes. They didn't ask for this.

10. You CANNOT spread freedom and democracy (remember, NOT the goal of this war in the first place!) at the end of a gun barrel. It JUST doesn't work like that.

11. I should have put this higher up, but remember when the bushies said the Iraqi oil revenue would pay for all this? Uh-huh. Wonderful how that worked out, isn't it? :eyes: Besides, how crappy is it to say "We're going to attack this country, but don't worry, we'll take their oil profits to pay for our attacking them?" Oh my GOD. Imagine if another country said that about us. We'd be fucking up in arms. And justifiably so.

12. ALL Iraqis have been characterized as insurgents/terrorists by the US media and bushbots. Which is just fucking wrong and unfair. Some of them ARE fighting the US troops in their country. And you know what? They have every right to. Some of them are from other countries. We left the borders wide open.

Given all these fuck-ups that have already happened (and believe me, I'm leaving out a LOT I'm sure other DUers will remind me of), WHAT IN THE WORLD MAKES ANYONE THINK on a MAGIC day, January 30, Iraqis are just going to wake up and find someone has sprinkled peace dust over the whole country and everyone is going to take their shiny smiling faces down to the polling places and elect their OWN soveriegn government (ahem, bullshit on the sovereign part)????

Please. No one here wants Iraqis to DIE. No one here wants US troops to DIE. WE WERE THE ONES IN THE STREETS, marching against this fucking immoral war. We were the ones writing letters, holding up signs, CRYING, praying, BEGGING the fucking government NOT TO DO THIS. I can't tell you how many candles I lit with tears in my eyes. I can't tell you how many times I've cried in the morning to hear of MORE deaths, MORE misery. I look at the pictures from Iraq late at night and can't sleep. My brother in law was hurt in this war and is now hoping he can someday use his leg again. DUers have LOST FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS in this fucked up war. So SCREW anyone here who thinks we WANT bloodshed in Iraq. My bushbot neighbors were too busy watching the latest "reality" show on TV to give a shit, they were too busy lecturing me on how I should support the troops by shutting my mouth and letting bush do whatever the hell he wanted to do. They were the ones telling me the "Iraqis deserve it for what they did to us on 9/11." Mother FUCKING lies.

WE. NEVER. WANTED. IT. IN THE FIRST PLACE. Got it? We were called a "focus group" by bush. Told he doesn't listen to focus groups.

But we are realistic. We know a FUBAR situation when we see one. We know a sham election when we see one (believe me, we do). We know the Iraqis are getting used like a $5 whore. We know there's war profiteering going on OUT THE ASS in Iraq, all for the fattening up of Halliburton's bottom line. Blood for money, isn't it lovely?

You want to find some people who REALLY don't give a shit about the bloodshed? Who really don't care if Iraqis die? Look no further than the White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC.

Look not here.

[DrWeird]

1. The people who are happy with the election today...

are the same people who were saying "just nuke the sandniggers" yesterday, and they'll be saying it again tomorrow when the fighting continues.

Nobody who actually believes this "democracy" bullshit.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Aint that the truth

Thanks for cutting through the crap.


http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=194


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Bouncy Ball]

5. Exactly.

People like my mother in law, who voted for bush in November because (and this is a direct quote from her) "he'll use nukes and wipe Iraq off the map if it gets bad enough. And good riddance."

Yeah, today she's probably sending out mass forwarded emails about the "beauty of democracy" and what a "beacon of freedom and hope America is under bush."

Not that she actually gives a shit about any "ragheads" as she calls them. She just wants her Annointed Jesus Boy to go to heaven and sit at the right hand of God.

[ComerPerro]

8. So true

I feel the exact same way.

[blondeatlast]

Note how many of them self-admit to "avoiding" DU since the

election, too.

I'm sure it's just koinkidinks...

[springhill]

12. Only those Iraqi's who have lost a loved one...

in this war even have a right to say whether it was worth it or not. As for myself, spreading democracy to other country's is not worth my son's life my any stretch of the imagination.

[gollygee]

46. That hypocricy is really bothering me

People who have been extraordinarily racist are now talking about how great it is that the Iraqis have "freedom" . . . .yeah right.

They don't have freedom, they have OCCUPATION. Not the same thing.

And people who are talking like that don't care if they have freedom anyway.

[Bouncy Ball]

49. They need to just go back to watching their TeeVee 12 hours a day

and not bother their beautiful little minds with it.

I hate that, too.

Dishonest isn't even a strong enough word to describe bushbots and the vile creatures they follow, is it?

[mhr]

2. #13 - The Sham Election Virtually Guarantees A Sunni, Shia Civil War

eom

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Thank you.

Good one and a BIG one I failed to mention.

Yeah, THAT'S good news for the Iraqis, right?

My prediction is (and I make it with a heavy heart, just as I do EVERYTHING where concerns this fucking war) is that things will now, believe it or not, get WORSE in Iraq. Not better.

[havocmom]

21. And begs for Iran to jump into the fray, giving the junta a reason

for more shock & awe.

There is a pipeling route to consider!

[Bouncy Ball]

24. And there's #14!!

Iran eyeballing Iraq and saying "Heyyyy, looks pretty good to us!"

:cry:

These poor bastards. What the hell have we done to them?

[havocmom]

32. We took the cradle of civilization and flattened it

all the while, assuring there is enough (justified) hate and anger to assure decades of terrorism, wars, increased violence and BIG PROFIT$ for the Carlyle Group, who bring the world things such as robo-soldier and anthrax vaccine!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=102259

[Peak_Oil]

44. It's not the cradle of civilization anymore

I think I almost laughed when you said that. Cradle of civilization indeed. It's a total disaster over there. I read that in a world history textbook at some point, but it's just out-of-date now.

That place was pretty flat when we got there. We just continue to flatten it a little more every day.

[Bouncy Ball]

45. It's actually concave now, didn't you hear?

And by the way, haven't seen you around in a while. How are you doing?

[Peak_Oil]

57. Yeah.

Things are good, school is progressing nicely. I'm heading to the library in about fifteen minutes to grind away on a little more Chemistry. It'll be a long day today, but should be productive.

How's things by you?

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Good, good.

Back in school myself, grad school. :hi:

[Warren Stupidity]

74. actually we literally trashed babylon.

We are such arrogant incompetent fuckwads. Tore down stuff, crushed shit up for sandbags, wrecked the place. Oh never mind it was just an irreplaceable world treasure.

http://talk.workunlimited.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1391042,00.html

Babylon wrecked by war

US-led forces leave a trail of destruction and contamination in architectural site of world importance

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad, and Maev Kennedy
Saturday January 15, 2005
The Guardian

Troops from the US-led force in Iraq have caused widespread damage and severe contamination to the remains of the ancient city of Babylon, according to a damning report released today by the British Museum.

What makes us different than the lunatic taliban blowing up the ancient giant buddhas?

[KharmaTrain]

82. Just Sets Up The Next Saddam

First, this was a great post that covered all the major points, and it's nice to know I'm not the only one who is as outraged by all that has gone on and can understand the nuances here.

That said, this regime loves to use the Germany/Japan analogy for this misadventure. They use 1945...let's try another Germany...the one of 1921. Here, just like Iraq, the country was under occupation by foreign forces and had and, in the Wilsonian altruism of the time, figured they could just force a democracy on the Germans. The subsequent Wiemar Republic led to resentment among Germans and opened the door for a "stronger", more "German" ruler. I think we all know what happened next. Anytime I hear some wingnut rant with that 1945 picture, I ask them if they know about the Marshall Plan...most think it's a layaway plan at a clothing store.

The Sunni's have long held the real power in this country...from the Caliphate times and they're not about to accept the backseat lightly. They'll lay low while 150,000 American troops run around their country, but in due time they'll organize and rise up and another Pan-Arabist or some other form will emerge...taking this whole misadventure full circle. Well, that is unless you've got a nice defense contract or provide services to the military...then you're golden.

[louis-t]

4. Well said

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

I just couldn't take this "we want more bloodshed" dishonest bullshit I've been seeing here any longer.

[blondeatlast]

6. How do we define "failure" and "success," anyway?

Excellent, with precious little to add:

Just that I would guess most Iraqis would like to see a day when they are not threatened in their own homes and their children can go out and play, and

that there are a darn lot of small US children who would love to see mommy or daddy again as soon as possible.

[Bouncy Ball]

9. Yep

And good question. What is failure or success in a country that posed no threat to us? In a country we had no business bombing and killing people there?

I daresay success to a lot of Iraqis will be defined as getting the US troops the hell out of their country, long may they wish. (14 permanent bases)

[greatauntoftriplets]

10. Extremely well said....

And nominated for the front page. Elections or not, the Iraq situation is still a train wreck.

Bravo!

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Heh. You said what I was trying to say in so fewer words.

I swear, conciseness is NOT one of my strong points. That's exactly what I was trying to say--Iraq is a train wreck of global proportions because of what WE have done, and no pretend election is going to magically change that.

I can't stand hearing anyone accuse us of wanting bloodshed. We never wanted a DROP to be spilled. I sat on my bedroom floor and sobbed my eyes out the day we invaded because I KNEW IT WAS A LIE. knew it. And I knew thousands would die for fucking LIES.

This is one of the most immoral things I have witnessed in my lifetime.

[Lisa]

83. I think you summed it up VERY well ...

Emphasis over conciseness is no weakness, given that Bush's supporters seem to need to have things explained more than once, anyway!


Personally I would be thrilled if the elections went without a hitch, the insurgents turned to each other and said, "now what were we so upset about -- clearly this is an improvement, so let's throw down our weapons and start rebuilding the country this instant!" -- and the troops were able to go home, wreathed in smiles.

Unfortunately, I fear that there is more chance of George W. whipping out a magic wand and sprinkling the entire region with "peace dust" (while fluttering through the sky on butterfly wings) than of things neatly falling into place. And that still wouldn't address the issues you raised so eloquently, about the self-serving lies and deception used from the beginning of this war.

I always thought it was conservative thinkers who were so hard on "sloppy liberal logic", or pointing out the abusive side of measures taken by left-wing dictatorships claiming to be striving for the perfect classless society. Acting as if everything is okay because Saddam is in prison and there's been an election -- this is like someone who messes up your house and then expects to be praised and rewarded for "cleaning it up".

Gods help us if the end "message" from this war is -- "it's okay to launch an immoral and illegal conflict, as long as you can find a way to pin it on a good cause after the fact -- like "elections", or "girls going to school".

[givemebackmycountry]

11. Bouncy - You never fail to amaze me

Excellent post and valid points, each and every one of them.
Especially the one about all Iraqis being terra-ists.

Sadly, the average 'Merican is more interested in "American Idol" than the misery and murder we brought to a country that did nothing to us.

[Bouncy Ball]

28. I totally agree. And thank you.

[Old and In the Way]

13. There you go.....popping the RW fantasy.

How are they going to fool themselves if you go posting the truth like this?

:-)

[blondeatlast]

18. The same way they always do, by going into hiding until the next

"crisis" emerges.

Note how many of them have "avoided" DU by their own admission since the US elections...

[Bouncy Ball]

22. Yeah, right.

Like they were big DU posters before. :eyes: I never knew Sunday was the big day of the week for this kind of shit.

[Misunderestimator]

Nice Rant!

:thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

31. Thanks.

[uppityperson]

14. Yup. Good writing.

These elections are a fraud. The whole invasion is fraudulant. We care and are capable to thinking and seeing beyond the advertising and fear mongering and this is why we are so upset and hate this situation. There is no good resolution to this situation. People have died. More people will die no matter what happens now. How to minimize this is the problem. NOT how to not give a shit.

[Clark2008]

16. Bravo

and :kick:

[havocmom]

17. And it is NOT a victory for democracy when areas of a nation don't vote

That is true there and it is true here.

Bravo Bouncy Ball! Nice rebuttal to the twits who suggest things are fine in Iraq now and we dissenters are the problem. They can peddle their propaganda elsewhere.

The junta broke Iraq and now they are slapping a bit of paint on and calling it all fixed.

IT IS NOT OK.

[hfojvt]

19. as far as pont #7 goes

"Stability then, no stability now."
According to Riverbend, an Iraqi blogger, they do not even have running water now, much less stability.

[Bouncy Ball]

27. I've read Riverbend for quite some time.

It just makes me cry. Yep, no running water (not consistently and for some of them, not ever) no consistent electricity, basic medical needs have to be neglected. Sanitary conditions in hospitals? Forget about it.

Kids are DYING from dehydration and malnutrition. And in FAR greater rates than they ever did under SH. It's been ALMOST TWO YEARS since we invaded. This SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING.

WE are the reason there are parents in Iraq RIGHT NOW watching their children die a slow, preventable death.

That alone should make the US bow its head in shame.

[mike_c]

20. kicked and nominated for the home page....

Most excellent post!

[Bouncy Ball]

43. Thanks Mike.

[AndyTiedye]

23. The Iraq War is ALREADY a Miserable Failure!

It seems that some posters on DU this morning think that DU wants Iraqis to die, want more bloodshed, and want the whole thing to fail.

What's going on over there sure looks a lot like death and failure.

We want it to stop.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Yet another DU says it in far fewer words than I did!

Thank you, exactly my point. It's ALREADY fucked up beyond belief.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

26. Excellent post! Thanks for saying what I've been thinking.

(and yet another nomination... My first)

[ulysses]

33. same here.

:thumbsup:, Bouncy.

[killbotfactory]

30. With a track record like Bush's, how can one not expect failure?

It would take a deus ex machina to get us out of this fucking mess.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Heh, you said it.

And how much do I love your sig line? A hell of a lot. I have to remember that!

[ultraist]

35. Standing ovation Bouncy Ball!

Any request to lie and step in line with the Bushie propaganda should immediately raise a red flag.

Let's not forget that Iraq was NOT a threat to us and Sadaam was contained. We could have taken him out later or in such a way that the US did not slaughter thousands of innocent Iraqis.

The *election* was a sham, it was NOT a success because there wasn't a huge massacre. A sham does not translate into a success because a massacre didn't occur.

The ones who hope for more deaths are those who support BUSH.

END THE VIOLENCE
BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW

[Bouncy Ball]

38. I love the first line of your post.

I know so deep in my soul that this war was immoral from the very beginning that ANYONE who attempts in ANY WAY to get me to agree to ANY of it being "ok" or even "good" raises immediate red flags for me.

NONE of it is good. It is ALL fucked up. Even IF something good comes out of this someday (ie: Iraq is a stable democracy and safe again), it will take years and years and years and far more unnecessary bloodshed, when, like you said, the same thing could have been accomplished more humanely and in less time. Attacking and invading is all bushies seem to understand.

And don't think, lurking freepers, that it's been lost on us that at the very base of it all is an AMAZING hateful prejudice that you have for people in the Middle East. I'd be hard pressed to find a single bushbot who has ever shed a single fucking tear for an Iraqi life lost because of what we have done there.

Hell, I'm not even sure they think enough about US troop lives lost to be all that upset about them, either. As long as they've slapped that magnetic ribbon on their car and sat rapturous listening to their Jesus President, they think that counts for everything. Slurping up that Kool Aid as fast as they can get it, because it KEEPS THEM FROM THINKING.

And they can engage that secret dark little part of them that takes pleasure in any foreigner's death. There, I said it.

[ClayZ]

58. "Your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more"

Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

[Bouncy Ball]

61. Those are GREAT lyrics.

Wonder if I could send them around in emails if I used the copyright information.

[ClayZ]

66. Blood out of Rocks

If they sue me!

[hangemhigh]

90. John Prine is the best. Thank you. nt

[MissWaverly]

36. never said I wanted failure

I think that this war has created the problem that we went in there to "correct." A large active islamic terrorist movement has been energized by the conflict. What can we do that we get us through this, does the current administration want a resolution to the crisis or do they just want a "perpetual" war to cover the plunder of Iraqi oil. How do we make progress, if the administration is "secretly undermining" the war so that we are not given the supplies or the troops to win; it does not matter how long we stay or how much we wave the flag; we are creating another Vietnam.

[Bouncy Ball]

42. I have wondered that myself.

This administration has made so many huge fuck ups, I wonder if they aren't intentional. I mean, they've made mistakes any civilian with a passing knowledge of history or warfare would have known were mistakes, for crying out loud.

And yeah, the ultimate irony: they've CREATED the very situation they claimed they were correcting. My God, it boggles the mind. If you think about it too long, you can feel yourself wavering on a tall precipice, looking down into a dark abyss of insanity.

[KissMeKate]

37. a successful nation building excercise doesnt make war worth it.

its like picking and choosing verses out of the bible- its hypocrisy, and its obvious.

[Bouncy Ball]

40. And they're pretty damn good at that picking verses out of the Bible

to use them how they want, too.

Hmmm, coincidence? I think not.

[Individualist]

39. Excellent post, Bouncy

The motives of those who are trying to imply that we want failure are quite clear to most of us.

[Bouncy Ball]

41. Yep, and I didn't want a single one of them to

think it was lost on us what they are actually doing and saying.

"Sit down, shut up and accept the bloodshed. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen."

Screw that. And screw anyone who advocates bloodshed in the name of religion, too. (While I'm at it!)

Thanks.

[Greylyn58]

47. Very Well Said...

can't think of anything to add.

And you are so very right. The killer and his posse are squatting in OUR White House.

:grr:

[Bouncy Ball]

48. I need to remember that.

"The killer and his posse are squatting in OUR White House."

So so true.

Thanks!

[tnlefty]

50. I see that you forgot your Kool-aid. Everything is truly fine in Iraq

'cause of this election 'cause Great Leader said so!

[Bouncy Ball]

51. I know, dammit.

I don't like Kool Aid. Never have, never will.

I am one of the "great unwashed" who just can't unhinge my jaw enough so that the big huge wad of lies can be crammed down my throat.

[Kahutec]

52. BS

Any Iraqis who voted put their life on the line! If that is a sham, to hell with all who have died for the cause!

[Ms. Clio]

53. What cause is anyone dying for in Iraq?

Halliburton, oil, global domination?

What did Iraqis "vote for" today? Do you know?

[Bouncy Ball]

55. Elaborate on that.

Immediately. How exactly is the election in Iraq legitimate? Go on, tell us.

And what "cause" have they died for? Elaborate on that, as well. Did you even READ my post?

(Oh goodie, I got one!)

[gollygee]

60. They died for a sham

They're still occupied. Tomorrow they will be occupied. Next week they will be occupied. Next year htey will be occupied. Someday Bush et al will find someone they want to lead the country. That person will be appointed, or "elected" in a sham election, and then perhaps we will leave. The Iraqui people will wait until someone topples that government and sets up another dictatorship. Will we go back into Iraq at that point? Or will we just leave things as they are?

Either we occupy them forever and they are never free, or we leave and they are free for a short time until another dictator comes to power. Either way, lasting freedom is not coming to Iraq.

[Bouncy Ball]

62. Good post. Which makes all those who died today trying to vote

even more tragic. Killed trying to vote in an election that doesn't mean bumpkis anyway.

I wish it did. I wish Iraqis were left to be happy and peaceful. But bushco has already screwed the pooch. Fucked up too many times and on too many things.

[Bouncy Ball]

73. So, Kahutec?

No rebuttal? Nothing to say? Hit and run?

[Dangerman]

54. I agree.

[Bouncy Ball]

56. I like the animation in your sig line.

Scary, but.......

[Dangerman]

64. Thanks.

And the guy after Hitler is none other than Prescott Bush, George W's granddaddy, for those of you who were wondering.

[deadparrot]

63. Thank you.

Same shit, different name.

People are still dying over there in massive numbers, still living in crushing poverty. THAT is not going to change, and it doesn't matter who's in power.

Anyone who thinks this was a free and fair election, and that Iraq will morph into a brand-spanking-new first world democracy is delusional.

The ethnic tensions still exist, the racism and violence and conflicting ideologies still exist, just like they did before and during SH, and after the US invasion. In the Middle East especially, old grudges are not forgotten. As one of my religion teachers said, "They'll talk about the Crusades like it was last Saturday."

As much as I want to hope for the best, I'm a realist. I don't believe these groups will get up and sing and dance, and hug, and everything will be happy.

I think there will be more chaos, destruction, and death. I think there will be fraud, assassinations, riots, bombings, etc. Like there has been for years. This so-called "democratic" election doesn't change the one thing I care emost about: the well-being of the Iraqi people.

[qanda]

65. Good post and...

How many times are they going to declare "Mission Accomplished" before the American people wake up and realize that the situation in Iraq is way more complicated than we were ever made to know? I just got off the phone with my mother, trying to explain to her just how complicated this whole mess is. Only time will tell just how much of a mess we have created in Iraq.

[RetroLounge]

67. Nice list

Don't forget what's going tohappen when the Kurds up north decide they want their own "demecracy" and country too. Turkey will NOT just sit around and watch that happen.

WWIII -> Caused by bush**

RL

[Bouncy Ball]

68. Yikes.

Yes, that was quite a biggie I left out, wasn't it? I knew there was a lot I wasn't thinking about. Shnikies.

:scared:

[kendall]

69. rebuttal on some points

1 & 2 - yes there were no WMDs, and that was stressed far too much at the start. However I feel #2 is related. Yes the US did help create Saddam. But I have never understood the argument that because we have helped to craft a monster, we can have nothing to do with the defeat of said monster. Should we instead go around creating monsters and just say "Whoa! Someone else's problem!" when they run amuck? Do we not in fact have an even greater responsibility than others to clean up the mess in that case?

Instead of being concerned about wether or not we should clean up our own messes, I would put energy towards making sure new Saddams are not created.

3. Not enough troops. I don't see how this is the case when there was obviously a very low level of violence in this election. If there are enough troops to hold a relatively peaceful election that involves many thousands of poling stations acting as juicy fixed targets, then claiming troop numbers are far to low seems unreasonable.

4 & 7, security situation now. Not sure if it's worse or better. Baghdad looked very peaceful indeed on the fixed live HDNet feed I watched most of the night. If you believe CNN then half the map of Iraq was labeled "safe"... Ask the kurds how safe their areas were under Saddam. A lot nicer to worry about a car bomb than random and massive death from above,

10. You cannot spread democracy at the point of a gun. That's very true, but were any of these people forced to vote? It seems you are confusing democracy being spread at the point of a gun with democracy being supported by the point of a gun (as most have been to start with). I believe when Saddam held elections with a Yes or No option and an unpleasant surprise behind door #2, that was a sham of a democracy being held at the point of a gun.

11. How to pay? You have a good point there is no way you are paying for this all through oil. But I have to say that a free Iraq (even with a government that disagrees with the US) is something I don't mind my tax dollars going for. If women can vote and have more freedom through some small sum of my taxes, I am all for that. As I said above I have to think that if we helped create Saddam, we have the obligation to free the people trapped by him.

12. Who has characterized all Iraqis as insurgents? I guess you meant only the Iraqi insurgents, some of which you wish to label as freedom fighters. Ok, though I don't agree. I would however strongly object to anyone from other countries being blindly labeled as "freedom fighters" as it is just as incorrect a notion, since obviously some of these fighters only have the interests of their homelands at heart in not allowing a democracy to take hold in the middle east and possibly spread to other regions. Some of them may well be fighting only to help remove the US from Iraq but to claim all foreign fighters are there for that reason with no ulterior motives that may not be right is naive at best.

[gollygee]

70. I can't get past your point #3

Low level of violence? If that many US troops had been killed for one event, it would be a catastrophe.

[Bouncy Ball]

72. I doubt he or she is even aware of what happened today in Iraq

with regards to violence. Too busy sucking up the glorious lies on Faux.

[Solly Mack]

79. it would be called "the deadliest day in Iraq" had 44 soldiers died

but since it was "just" Iraqis...it's "low" violence.

I don't know about other people, but 44 dead is 44 too many for me.

44 comes from:
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=1&theme=&usrsess=1&id=67108


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_THE_VOTE?SITE=AKFAI&SECTION=HOME

[Bouncy Ball]

71. It's pretty clear you are on the wrong website.

You might want to re-check the posting rules for DU for clarification.

No one is calling the people streaming in from other countries freedom fighters. Point that out to me to back that claim up.

It's also pretty clear to me you support this immoral war, these unjustified deaths.

You have nothing whatsoever to say about the lack of WMDs, the entire reason we attacked Iraq?

"mushroom clouds"

"he could have biological agents here in 45 minutes"

"thousands of liters of sarin, mustard gas....."

THREAT THREAT THREAT WE WERE UNDER GREAT THREAT FROM IRAQ!!! A GRAVE AND GATHERING DANGER!!!!!!!!!!

And it turns out they weren't even a threat to their neighbors, much less us.

Makes all the rest of this pretty academic, doesn't it?

As for troop levels, we used over 600,000 troops just to get Iraq out of Kuwait in 1991. We used less than HALF that to take over and "secure" the entire country and topple a regime. How much fucking sense does that make to you? Huh? NONE. It makes no sense at all. Rumsfeld was and is a dumb fuck who put our troops unnecessarily in harm's way by trying to carry out this immoral unjust war ON THE CHEAP.

Address the WMD issue or put a lid on it, because it all comes down to that. They could hold another election tomorrow and one the day after and the day after. Commentators on FUX News could jack off perpetually on TeeVee about the "glorious elections, reminiscent of 1776 in America" to their heart's content and IT STILL WOULDN'T ERASE THE FACT THAT WE INVADED AND ATTACKED THAT COUNTRY BASED ON A PACK OF LIES. WE caused the unnecessary deaths of thousands, the destruction of homes and businesses and infrastructure, for NOTHING.

Stop peddling your cloudy-eyed bullshit lies here. No one's buyin' what you're sellin'. We resisted drinking the Kool-Aid.

[sunnystarr]

75. yep you're sure right ... "Mission Accomplished II" and we all know what

happens next ....

[Lisa]

87. if the point is that Saddam was "created" ...

... by the US (and yes, other countries too, to be fair here) ... and his regime was basically imposed on the Iraqi people ... I think one of the arguments BouncyBall is making is that more meddling isn't guaranteed to help.

An analogy here -- the British did serious damage to Washington DC during the War of 1812. Now, afterwards, if the British had sent one of their architects over uninvited, who promptly started knocking holes in what remained of the White House, explaining to everyone that "we created this problem, so now we're going to build a whole new set of government buildings for you, using our own blueprints -- and while we're at it, we're going to suggest some changes that will really sex-up this clunky "Republic" of yours" -- I wonder how many Americans at the time would have welcomed that? Some of them might have said, "okay, the British can help, but they have to do what we tell them, not just start putting things in."

Even when ideas and suggestions may actually be rather useful, the way in which they're being presented can have a big impact on whether or not people accept them. This comes up a lot with democratic reforms. People are a lot more eager to go with changes to voting systems, etc., if they or a group they feel represents them have come up with the ideas, rather than a bunch of "experts" -- or worse, outsiders. (Canadians, for example, are wary of "US-style" changes to politics, education, or health care -- yet left to their own devices they will quite happily pick some of those options.) And if Iraqis see this as a US-installed government, fairly or otherwise, it'll be that much more difficult to get support.


and re: #12, while I agree that people from other places are coming into Iraq for a variety of reasons (including not wanting a democracy in that country) -- note that earlier US administrations didn't see this as an obstacle to supporting the anti-Soviet Afghan "freedom fighters" (including bin Laden) in the 1980s. I just think it's kind of ironic that some of the same administration experts are now condemning this new group of fighters for doing the same thing. (Somehow I doubt it's because they're finally listening to the peace activists who criticized the funding of rebel groups in Central Asia, Latin America, Africa, etc. over the past 20 years.)

[Cronus Protagonist]

76. Great rant!

:kick:

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=194


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[immoderate]

77. How is it different from previous elections?

Saddam had elections. Yeah, nothing was determined by those elections, but that's the point. What is the result of these elections. Some convoluted process that leads to more elections. That today's outcome could have been worse for Iraq does not make it a "turning point" but, I fear one day that US forces dodged a bullet.

Good stuff, Bouncy.

--IMM

[sweetheart]

78. If we learned anything, then let's see that with IraN / Persia

Now the iraq crime is "poland" and barbarrossa is gearing up for the
next invasion. The way to measure our concern is to rate how scathing
we are about current administration crimes of deception to threaten
and forment war with a nation that poses no imminet threat.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

84. No worries, mate

Iraq is by no stretch of the imagination a "success."

[gollygee]

86. I would love to see Iraq be peaceful and truly free

even if Bush got the credit.

But the way he's handling things, and has handled things, and will continue to handle things, there is no . . chance . . in . . . hell of that happening.

Very sad.

[Lisa]

88. I personally would welcome him with flowers and candy ...

... if I thought his policies were actually helping. Yeah, call me a softhearted liberal, but IF people weren't getting killed or maimed, and the environment was healthy, and everyone was prosperous and contented ... I wouldn't hesistate to apologize to Mr. Bush for not believing in him.

And under that scenario, I'm sure that Mr. Bush would be mentioning DU in his next State of the Union, as an example of American values and citizen action, and saying how happy he is that people are making valuable suggestions on how he can be a better leader.

I also hope I'm wrong about global warming, and that the economy is doing much better than I think it is, and that in a few years things will have settled down as the extremists decide that blowing people up is really a bad idea.

Sigh.

[Bouncy Ball]

91. DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST????

Did you just kinda scan the title, look at some responses and type that or did you actually read it?

My God.

Your question is MOOT. That's the point I am trying to make here!!!! You'd have to be a fucking IDIOT to think there is ANY CHANCE OF success in Iraq given the current trajectory.

And that means MORE lost lives, MORE destruction of property, MORE money spent on this ill-fated war.

It's not a matter of getting or giving credit. Credit for WHAT? I would never want to take credit for turning a country into a hellhole far more dangerous than it ever was before I touched it.

:eyes:

[HumblePiRSquared]

94. Maybe Saddam was best for Iraq in your mind but I respectfully disagree

Things can only get better from here (I hope).

[Bouncy Ball]

95. Um, we NEVER should have been there in the FIRST PLACE.

Regime change WAS NOT THE REASON GIVEN FOR ATTACKING IRAQ.

No, read that again: regime change was NOT the reason we were given for attacking Iraq.

In fact, attacking another country for the purpose of regime change is AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Also, that reason was introduced AFTER the US realized there were no WMDs. AFTER. That reason was RETROFITTED onto the war.

In other words, you were lied to. And not just little lies, either. Big FAT fucking lies. Piles of 'em. Mushroom cloud. Here in 45 minutes. Tons of liters of biological and chemical weapons. A NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

Remember all that?

No Saddam was NOT best for Iraq, but that DOES NOT GIVE US THE RIGHT TO LIE ABOUT THE REASONS FOR ATTACKING IRAQ, ATTACKING IRAQ, then retrofitting this whole "regime change" dishonesty on top of it. You may have swallowed it whole, but thank God I haven't.

What we did violated international law. And lying to get us to go to war is a war crime.

I hope you like your little weecowboy war criminal president.

[Rockerdem]

81. A great big thanks, OP

Slander about how DUers wanted to see bloodshed on election day in order to stop the voting was spreading around the internet. One of them linked to DU. Thanks for putting that LIE to bed.

[malaise]

85. Great post

In this weekend of KoolAid celebrations, it was timely.

[Bouncy Ball]

92. Well I hope I did put it to bed.

Not fifteen minutes after I posted this thing this morning, I saw yet another thread in here about how DUers want failure in Iraq.

How the hell can we WANT failure when it is ALREADY THERE? When we didn't want this to BEGIN with?

And of course, this is all just a ruse. The bushbots KNOW they are wrong. Classic deflection, but that shit just doesn't work on me.

And it doesn't seem to work on most DUers, either, just verifying my perception that some of the smartest people on the internet are right here.

Thanks!

[hangemhigh]

89. You bounce, you rock, you are homepage bound.

I will be plagiarizing the hell out of your post tomorrow when I start seeing the stupid email shit that I invariably get from the bible bangers back home. Thank you.

[Bouncy Ball]

93. Thank you!

Plagiarize away, doesn't bother me a bit! Improve it if you want to. It's not perfect by any means, I was rather het up when I typed it.