Anybody else getting tired of "...democracies don't go to war with

[hector459]

each other?" Or as the dip-stick said on MSNBC " We all know that democracies don't start wars" to which Ron Reagan took exception, mentioning our invasion of Iraq.

Where have I been? I thought WWI and WWII were mostly democracies fighting each other and starting wars with other countries at will.

Is it that if you are a democracy it's ok to go to war or start a war as long as the people you start the war with are not democracies? WTF?
This is something that our new Secretary of State has said on several occassions and I never heard anyone call her on it. Now this is picked up by the FOX pundits and the blond dip-stick who sits opposite Ron Reagan on MSNBC. She has to have been a former FOX pundit because they all act and speak the same way.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[hector459]

6. WWI and WWII

They don't count?

[rockymountaindem]

7. As you'll see in my post below

Germany did not attack Britain, but rather Poland, which was a military dictatorship. This brought France and Britain into conflict with Poland, due to a treaty they had signed after WWI.

Furthermore, Hitler was only partially democratically elected. He was indeed elected to the Chancellory, which was the 3rd highest position in Germany at the time. However, when Hindenburg died, Hitler merged the offices of Chancellor and President (illegally) to make himself the dictator of Germany. Yes, most people weren't too upset, but it was illegal and non-democratic either way.

[Name removed]

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[rockymountaindem]

28. Yeah, little did I know.

I read that in my 20th Century European history textbook yesterday. Turns out that a general took over the country only 2 years after it was created, and his regime survived his death in 1935. I'd always thought they were a democracy too.

As to the "Hitler was democratically elected" claim, it looks like I was wrong. I'm pretty disappointed in myself. I looked it up and indeed he was given dictatorial powers by the Reichstag. For some reason I always thought the Reichstag fire was after he took power and needed a reason to consolidate his support.

[Djinn]

30. he got extra powers after the reichstag fire and Hindenburg's death

after consolidating 2 positions but he was STILL elected by a majority of the population, even if the Communists and Socialists parties votes were counted they still would have lost to the Nazi's.

It's really important to acknoledge the support Hitler had from within the German community, that way we can better understand that someone doesn't have to start off as a vicious, mass murdering, dictatorial, meglomaniac to become one. If we remember that perhaps we can do better at heading them off at the past.

[alcuno]

12. Welcome to DU, reichstag911.

Nice user name.

[reichstag911]

19. thx

It's the first thing I thought of when I heard about the planes crashing into the WTC, and I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Anyone familiar with the policy positions of the Project for a New American Century people knows what I'm talking about.

[Journeyman]

5. As of today, President Bush maintains. . .

that the Iranian democracy has designs on doing evil to the American democracy, plans which call for the American democracy to potentially wage war against the Iranian democracy.

Closer to home, the Confederate States of America (a democracy) engaged in extensive warfare over a span of four years against the United States of America (another democracy).

See, the juncture of history and reality can indeed bear fruit, even though it not be to the taste everyone wants.

[hector459]

9. How about what we did with the democracy Iran had before the Shah?

It is a well known fact that our government help to overthrow the democratically elected leader of Iran and put in place the Shah. One "tard" to another.

[reichstag911]

25. good book on point...

All the Shah's Men by Stephen Kinzer...see reviews at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0471265179/ref=dp_proddesc_0/104-3848061-9645503?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155 .

[HysteryDiagnosis]

Ahem.... how many democracies has the CIA helped to topple....

surely you must consider this a sort of covert war... happens all the time.. ask the Chileans how much they benefitted from our helping to overthrow Allende. Be prepared to get an earful. Evil is as evil does. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Democracy is fine, but another country's natural resources are better. Much much better.

[alcuno]

11. Germany was a republic in 1918, as I am often told that we are.

Weren't they at war with England, a parliamentary democracy, and everybody else in WWII?

Maybe you should read rather than call names. I'd welcome you to DU, but you've been rude and wrong on only your fourth post.

[Yupster]

29. Germany had a parliament in 1914, but

it also had a Kaiser who had the most power in the country. England in 1914 also had a king, but their parliament had the bulk of the power.

In 1939, Germany was no longer a democracy. Once the Enabling Act was passed, Hitler was a dictator.

An example of two democratic countries fighting each other would be the US Civil War though.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

2. LOL he is such a MORAN....bush*s democracy went to war

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[Djinn]

22. nope it's moran

it's refers to a particularly stupid freeper and his mispelt protest sign

[SmokingJacket]

24. Your English is fine...

you just need to brush up on your "DU."

"Moran" is the accepted spelling around here.

<img src="">

[Name removed]

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[alcuno]

27. You think the guy in the picture is a Democrat?

Wrong party.

[rockymountaindem]

4. WWI and WWII were not started by democracies.

WWI began with the assassination of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne (not a democracy). Then Germany, under the Kaiser (German word for "Caesar", not a democracy) pressured Austria to make life hard for Serbia (a democracy), at which point Russia (not a democracy) intervened on Serbia's behalf. Next Germany invaded France on their own accord, in order to try and prevent a war on two fronts. The problem was that their invasion had to pass through Belgium, which was a neutral country, prompting Britian to intervene on Belgium (due to a treaty signed in 1839) and France's behalf.

WWII was started when Nazi Germany (a fascist dictatorship) attacked Poland (a military dictatorship).

[hector459]

10. So "invading" a country doesn't count as "going to war with?"

Just want to know.

[rockymountaindem]

14. The point is that France was a democracy, but not Germany.

The saying is that "democracies don't go to war with each other". France was a democracy, but only went to war after hostilites were instigated by Austria-Hungary and Germany, and expanded by Russia, none of which were democracies. Therefore, no two democracies started a war with each other in WWI.

[alcuno]

15. 1919-1933 - "Weimar Republic"

Germany's first try at democracy didn't work so well.

[reichstag911]

16. repeating it won't make it so

Hitler was appointed Chancellor legally -- 72 years ago today, actually -- in the Weimar democratic system after the National Socialists won the most seats in the Reichstag in the July, 1932 elections. Hindenburg offered a nominal cabinet position; Hitler held out for more. When Kurt von Schleicher resigned 1/28/33, he got the chancellorship. After February's Reichstag fire, the Nazis/National SOcialists once again won a majority of legislative seats. On Mar. 5th, they used that majority to grant Hitler dictatorial powers...not unlike our own PATRIOT Act. He took dictatorial power legally, and with the (implicit) representative consent of the governed. Thus is democracy subverted.

Closer to home, of course, the US has been waging war aginst 3rd world popular democratic movements for the past century or so. Mossadegh in Iran, Arbenz in Guatemala, etc., etc., etc.

[Djinn]

21. I believe it's "fought" by not started though

the actual spark that sets of the keg isn't totally relevant in this context. WW1 would have broken out anyway without the Arch Duke's assassination.

Hitler's dictatorship wasn't so cut and dried, while Communists and Socialists were barred from standing for election after the Reichstag fire, people still voted for them - but not enough of them - the Nazi's got over 50%, the Communists and Socialists combined didn't even make up the Nazi vote.

Depending on one's definition of democracy and war there's the examples of:

* the first Indian/Pakistani war
* Lebanese Civil War - with Israel on one side
* Armenian - Azerbaijan (Nagorno-Karabakh conflict still going)

Then there's the other fun way of getting around an actual war, you just instigate a coup against a democratically elected government (surely has to be recognised as an act of violence if not technically war) as in Chile, Iran etc

There is justification for this theory but only if you specify Long standing, stable, wealthy, liberal democratic countries do not go to war against each other.

[ermoore]

8. Nah, it's true.

No democracy has ever gone to war with another Democracy.

The closest examples would probably be instances like the War of Northern Aggression (calm down, I'm kidding) or the Falklands War (I think my history is right here), which were rebellions.

Nazi Germany was not a democracy. Hitler was initially elected, but pretty much all democratic elements of Germany's government didn't even last till the War's beginning.

[hector459]

13. One point is that the original statement has evoled into "Democracies

don't start wars." It was done ever so subtley but it has been done ala today's show on MSNBC.

[bmichaelh]

18. History

History is full of examples of democracies declaring wars or behaving warlike...

During the war with Sparta, democratic Athens gave neutral Melos an ultimatum. Melos refused to take sides.
Athens killed all males of military age on the island of Melos and sold all the women and children of Melos into slavery.

During the 1800s, democratic US waged a war against the Plains Indians. Custer and his 7th calvary wiped out the camp of the Cheyenne peace chief Black Kettle on the banks of the Washita river.

During the 1920s, the British government authorized the use of mustard gas against Kurds.

This is the logic of the neocons. If all governments were democratic, then there would be perpetual peace. This is a lie.

[AG78]

23. My only response to that statement is always

What happens to all that money for the military-industrial-complex when every country is a "democracy"?

When you can answer that question without laughing, outside of a fear based laughter, you'll have the answer.