What needs to be said about Iraq.....

[Dookus]

We're sorta screwed now over this damned war. We need help and we need it bad. Whether the idea was right or not is no longer even relevant. We're there and we need to fix it.

So..... SOMEBODY in charge needs to say:

Dear World:

I owe you an apology. After September 11th, 2001, you all came out to help me. You all stood by me and offered all the help you could muster. But sometimes, when people are in pain, they act like assholes, even... and especially... to those closest to them. I'm sorry. I acted like an asshole.

Now that the pain and shock have lessened a bit, I see that I treated you badly. I can't undo my mistakes. I can only apologize, ask you to judge me by my entirety, rather than just my pained reactions, and vow to do better in the future.

OK, World... can we be friends again?"

[Booberdawg]

1. What's this "we" shit

Got mice in your belly?? A turd in your pocket?

"WE" didn't act like assholes. G W BUSH did!! Him and his PNAC war mongers!!!

HE needs to grovel - BIG TIME!!!

:D

[Dookus]

2. hey grumpypuss! :)

I specifically wrote it in the first-person!

However, I know Bush will never express those sentiments. The next President, however, will have to. I hope he uses my words, but I doubt he will :)

What're you still doin' awake?!

[Booberdawg]

4. That's me!!

Not so grumpy today though. :D

I am really a lot more pissed about the war, the deficit, the bush* lies, et all, for some reason since the speech. Don't know why that is. Just so fed up. Something about it just dotted the i's, crossed the t's, and put a period on it for me.

Oh, I took a nap this morning - so I'm going strong now. Just now making myself some supper.

:hi:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

44. THEY SHOULD ALL BE PUT IN GITMO ...ASAP

[sujan]

3. I hope the world doesn't support the US

it's about time someone broke US's hegemony and hopefully Iraq will do it. And maybe that will fuel some sense into the voters next time they elect the leaders.

War is not free, it costs money.

[Dookus]

5. No, I hope the world does support us....

as long as we adhere to the values of the Enlightenment and constitutional democracy and use our position as the sole superpower to improve the world, rather than rule it.

[sujan]

6. surely you're joking right?

US's interest is in economic hegemony not 'values of the Enlightenment and constitutional democracy' and history proves it.

[Dookus]

7. no, I'm not joking....

economic hegemony is not a uniquely American ideal.

When I think of America, my first thoughts don't go to the excesses of our economic system. They go to the ideals of a liberal democracy; freedoms based on a bill of rights, a government accountable to the people, and a sytem of checks and balances.

If all the nations of the world had such a system intact, things would be a lot better than they are today.

Yes, we've done a lot wrong. But the ideas that created this country are still among the most powerful ever implemented by men.

[sujan]

8. without the economic hegemony

the US wouldn't have such power.

So choose your pick.

[Dookus]

9. choose my pick?

I'm not sure what that means....

but I'll venture a guess anyway. I guess you think that the excesses of capitalism are unique to the US. I don't agree.

I'll also venture that you believe the excesses of capitalism outweigh any of the benefits of a liberal democracy. Again, i don't agree.

I believe that as long as the tenets of a liberal democracy hold, we can FIX the excesses of capitalism.

And I believe we are on the very edge of that catastrophe.

Which is why I proposed that the US re-commit itself to the fundamental goals of the Enlightenent.

[sujan]

10. all the luxuries

you enjoy is because of the US being an economic power.

Liberal democracy and 'the Enlightenent' wouldn't give you such comfort, why? simply because it would have taken a lot of hardwork and time.

'I guess you think that the excesses of capitalism are unique to the US.'

You are right, it started with colonization by the European countries, with Spain carrying the banner at one time, Britain the other, France, Holland, Germany and now it's the US. But the consequences are all too familiar. It has never been about 'fundamental goals of the Enlightenent' because the colonized country that were pillaged and raped of their resources didn't need the 'Enlightenent' you propose. Because you can win over people's heart by building up on their beliefs and not by claiming how superior your ideologies are and by no means you could gain favours by bombing the hell out of a country and patching the wounds with band aid.

So the rest of the world says no thank you. The US will be taught a lesson.

[Dookus]

11. ok....

then I'm gonna guess you're not a Democrat. This is a forum for Democrats. Good luck getting somebody with your views elected into power. Usually they have to seize it.

[sujan]

12. ok...

you need to reread the guidelines and point me where does it say 'This is a forum for Democrats.' only or do you have the habit of skipping lines.

On the electoral process, good luck with your candidates because it's the same operation with a different cover, always has been, always will be. It is vital for American dominance especially in this Brave New World.

[Dookus]

15. LOL...

item #1 in the FAQ:

1. This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives

[sujan]

16. wow

didn't mention that in your little rant, did you?

[Dookus]

30. and yet again....

I'll express my confusion over what you mean.

What litle rant? What didn't I express? You asked me a simple question and I posted a simple reply. Then you came back with something I don't understand.

[sujan]

32. simply

because you stated that this forum was for 'democrats' without mentioning the other participants. This forum is not marked 'democrats only' and most democrats aren't progressives.

[Dookus]

35. well....

if your argument is: a site called "Democratic Underground", where the very FIRST answer in the FAQ is: "This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives " is NOT for Democrats.... then.... well.... you lose.

[sujan]

36. no my argument is

you dont need to be a democrat to participate in this website.

And hell you dont have any right to participate in this forum if you're a conservative even if you're a democrat.

So no I dont lose, it's simply that you're misinformed.

[Dookus]

38. LOL...

No, I'm not misinformed.

Nor am I conservative.

Have a great night....

[Dookus]

13. and let's look at the big picture...

my original post states that America needs to be exceedingly humble and apologize for its mistakes.

And you feel the need to argue with THAT?

What will satisfy you? Only an admission that our government deserves to collapse and our citizens deserve to be sold into slavery to the rest of the world? C'mon... If ANY President spoke the words I wrote, that wouldn't encourage you? If not, then why the hell do you even live here or post here?

I have hope for our country. Always will.

[sujan]

14. because

What will satisfy you?
> I have mentioned that clearly. End of American economic baiting.

Only an admission that our government deserves to collapse and our citizens deserve to be sold into slavery to the rest of the world?
> On the first count, I admit, the second count is not true.

C'mon... If ANY President spoke the words I wrote, that wouldn't encourage you?
> No. Because actions speak louder than words.

If not, then why the hell do you even live here or post here?
> Simply because I can. What the hell are you going to do about it?

[Dookus]

17. I'm sorry,

all I can do is laugh.

Honestly, I don't want to belittle you. But what I proposed in my original post is an extreme reversal of the current US foreign policy. But that's not enough for you.

Can you tell me what you think an elected (and electable) official should say?

[sujan]

18. "all I can do is laugh."

yes.

Can you tell me what you think an elected (and electable) official should say?
> reread the above post.

[Dookus]

20. well, that's a rather obscure answer:

you think somebody can be elected President using the quotes you give?

I disagree.

[sujan]

22. even Bush

said something to the effect that the US had to be a 'humble nation'.

[Dookus]

23. Yes he did.

And he lied.

I'm having a hard time understanding your point. Exactly HOW much should we humble ourselves in your view?

[sujan]

24. all i got to say is

'action speaks louder than words'

The length and breadth of the speech doesn't mean a thing to me.

[Dookus]

25. I'll ask again....

what do we do from here on out? We're already there. We need to get out. We need help. What's your suggestion?

[sujan]

26. save your hyde

US's presence wont help; at least with an occupying force raising hell anyway.

[Dookus]

27. I don't know what that means....

Can you phrase that in a couple of english sentences?

[sujan]

28. ok

- Save some lives on your side by pulling out completely
- Learn the lesson that invading a sovereign nation and bombing innocent civilians isn't a good way to uplift their condition
- American Troops in Iraq are trigger happy, that is, they kill/have killed civilians indiscriminately.

[Dookus]

29. and again, I'll ask.....

do you believe that's a winning Democratic Party platform?

[sujan]

33. why is that important?

most of the democrats running for presidency support this invasion one way or the other. They would win the presidency regardless of the Iraqi issue, all they need is a big money chest to propagate their propaganda.

[Dookus]

39. well....

again, if you hate Democrats, then perhaps this isn't the right forum for you.

[sujan]

40. hate democrats?

whatever you say...
because I dont recall stating that.

[scarletwoman]

45. I wish WE "had such a system intact"!

But we don't. We actually never had, despite all the fine sounding proclamations made by the Founders.

I dearly wish that the Republic they envisioned WOULD become a reality, but the fact is, the forces of fuedalism, oligarchy and plutocracy have battled against our democracy from the very beginning -- and have won more times than not.

We are now living in the culmination of the triumph of rule by the wealthy Overclass over "We the People". Barring a second American revolution, the road ahead looks extremely bleak. Corporate serfdom for all...

sw

[Solon]

19. U.S. needs to do better than that...

A formal apology is needed of course, and yours is good, however, the us needs to pull out of Iraq completely, putting it under U.N. jurisdiction, and then arrange with the U.N. to pay reparations to the Iraqi people for the suffering caused.

[Dookus]

21. yes....

of course. Nothing I posted precludes that.

[G_j]

31. please consider

this little rant I just posted on another thread. And remember how the abuser often comes slinking around saying "I'm sorry"

--------------
There are folks trying to argue that whatever mistakes were made WE need to fix Iraq by pouring billions (more) into the corrupt pockets of the Cheney/Rumsfeld cartel. That we need the UN, but under American 'experienced' leadership.

Nothing good can come from these people because their objectives have NEVER had anything to do with the good of the Iraqi people!

We can't fall for the newest version of the con!

We need to be out there now, as much as we needed to be out there before the invasion, demanding that all power be taken out of Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Halliburton hands.

I know this article has been posted recently, but If you haven't already, give it a read.

Jonathan Schell, The Importance of Losing the War

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/090903C.shtml

[Dookus]

34. well I'm not sure what your point is, either.....

I advocate a total humbling of the US. We need to make apologies and amends to our friends and allies.

And that seems not to be enough. Can you PLEASE tell me what's enough?

[G_j]

37. I thought it was pretty clear

I am saying, all the apologies in the world won't be enough if we let them keep their greedly little evil fingers in the mix. These folks still have big plans for the world.

I can apologise to the world for my countries wrongs, and I do! But the people who got us into this can't be trusted, that's why I used the analogy of an abuser.

[NNN0LHI]

41. And what do we say to the thousands of Iraqi's we have killed already?

And the thousands of others whos limbs have been blown off? Oops. Sorry, we made a little fucking boo boo. Sorry Dookus, but nothing less than Nuremberg type war crimes trials for those who caused this fucking nightmare and their supporters would be just the beginning of what needs to be done here. Otherwise all of the rhetoric that you suggest would do nothing bet make things even worse for us who did not support this madness. Nice try though.

Don

[G_j]

42. from the Nuremberg Tribunals, August 12, 1945

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which
their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the
war, but that they started it. And we must not allow
ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war,
for our position is that no grievances or policies will
justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced
and condemned as an instrument of policy."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert L. Jackson
Chief U.S. Prosecutor
at the Nuremberg Tribunals
August 12, 1945

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/jack02.htm

[ElsewheresDaughter]

46. Don...you are correct...these sludge maggots (bushco) need to be held

"accountable"

[ElsewheresDaughter]

43. i concur!...we need to humble ourselves, apoligize and get the fuck out

and pay for the damage we inflicted!

if that is even possible ..god what an ABYSSMAL FAILURE BUSH IS!!!! EVERYTHING HE TOUCHES TURNS TO SHIT!!!!