Do the rich move around in a different world from you and I?

[Goathead]

A parallel world that only meets where the service industry intersects with elitists lifestyles. Please cite instances and examples if you agree with this. I am starting to believe this more and more but I have some philosophical problems with this assessment.

[K-W]

1. Oh Certainly

Without a doubt they live very different lives and it gives them a very different view of reality.

[mhr]

2. Is This Not Obvious

- They Live In Gated Communities
- Fly Private Aircraft
- Chauffeured in limousines
- Have butlers, nannies, and secretaries handle the scut work
- Never worry about money or livelihoods
- Vacation anytime or anywhere they want

Anything else

By comparison, I live on less than $1,200 per month. You can imagine the limitations.

[Goathead]

3. Yes but the physicalities of "our" world

and "their" world are the same.

[oregonjen]

4. but the perspectives are different

[mhr]

5. Hardly, They Have The Best Of Everything

All my possessions are old and worn.

My physical world and their physical world are miles apart.

[Piperay]

74. Different possessions but

they are going to end up breathing the same poisoned air that the poor do, that is the physical World that rich and poor alike share. It's going to make it hard to enjoy that sea-air while cruising on their yachts when it is unbreathable from the pollution that chimp's regime allows to be pumped in. x(

[mhr]

77. They Plan To Exterminate Enough Of Us Through Benign Neglect

That it won't be a problem for them.

That is how insidious and evil these people truly are.

The best of human nature ends where greed begins.

Radix Omnium Malorum Est Cupiditas

The love of money is the root of all evil!

[K-W]

6. Tell that to my butler.

Heh.

[ReverendDeuce]

7. I believe they call people like you "Lucky Duckies"...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002937

[Disturbed]

11. We are their servants.

The elites in Govt. also feel that we are the servants. Amerika is a Fascist nation ruled by the rich elite. The Pres. and the Junta are all millionaires and so are most of the Senators and Reps.

[SmokingJacket]

86. Yeah, real lucky...

it's so great not having any money to tax!!!! Whew! I get to keep every penny left over after my medical bills and the rent on my trailer. All $12.

Thank god I don't have three million dollars coming in every year. Then I could only keep like two million!! Wouldn't that suck???

That op-ed was chilling, btw.

:scared:

[Coastie for Truth]

13. Some minor changes

I agree with
- They Live In Gated Communities
- Fly Private Aircraft (could be their company's or customers')
- Chauffeured in limousines (only the old money, super-rich)
- Have butlers, nannies, and secretaries handle the scut work
(I will go along with nannies and secretaries, and "administrative assistants"; my mom, a retired surgical nurse - would have some additions about how the little deities - surgeons - treat all of the non-MD medical professionals)
- Never worry about money or livelihoods (they worry at a different level, not subsistence - but yield, return, capital gains, tax preferences, etc.)
- Vacation anytime or anywhere they want

===========================

The real thing - they have significant "dividends, interest, and capital gains income" to meet their "needs" and therefore do not worry about "wages, salaries, or profit of a sole proprietorship"

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. The private plane part is the key

How many average Americans know someone who owns their own airplane? Perhaps quite a few but how many know someone who owns their own JET airplane? Or a boat over 50 feet in length? Or a vacation home in a resort area? There are millions of such individuals in this country but they DO NOT SHARE OUR LIVES The system is set up so that those with wealth find it very easy to increase that wealth but those without have great difficulty trying to amass it

[Zynx]

26. Vacation home isn't too bad, boat and plane are

Particularly plane. Even most movie stars don't own their own plane because they don't like paying for gas.

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. Agreed but i should have added that if you have enough disposable

income to purchase toys and luxuries that cost more than $100 grand then you are one of the folks we are talking about - yes?

[Blue_In_AK]

56. A LOT of people own planes up here

because it's the only way to get anywhere (no roads), but still, not many jets.

[Zynx]

62. Well, there are planes and there are PLANES

Lear jet ain't much good to someone in the Alaska bush.

[Blue_In_AK]

72. You got that right.

Most of the ones up here are tiny little things that seat no more than four people. You can land them on a lake or a gravel bar. But Lear jets -- nah....

[SammyWinstonJack]

87. Lear Jet or in John Travolta's case

A 747 and access to a Qantas' Jetliner both parked at his mansion in Florida. Yeah, he needs a tax cut.

[Cleita]

16. I once worked for the Trust Department of a very big

bank in Beverly Hills. The concentration of obscene wealth in this area made many of our accounts some of the most wealthy in the world. One of them, a major stockholder and chairman of the board of a well known drugstore and supermarket chain, took me to lunch every now and then.

It always ended up the same. After three martinis he would get maudling and start crying about how he had nothing left to live for. I often made suggestions as to how he could spend his money, but no he had done it all, traveled everywhere he wanted to, bought everything he wanted to own.

One day I suggested that he give money to the needy. He almost went into shock. After that, he never took me to lunch again, and was very cool and businesslike from then on.

[Warpy]

20. They don't live in gated communities

They don't actually live in communities, at all. The super rich live in isolated areas, in compounds with gates and guards, invisible from any road used by ordinary people.

They travel in cars with tinted glass to private airports when they need to travel.

They are whisked in an out of exclusive shops that do not cater to the walk in trade. Most of their purchases are arranged through catalogues that you and I will never see.

When they are ill, they go to big cities where major hospitals have VIP wings (I worked in one of those in Boston).

I've actually had the experience of meeting a handful of these people. I found them affable but utterly clueless as to how human beings without trust funds and portfolios survive from day to day. They simply had no idea of what it did to people when they decided to cut some company loose from their control so it could go bankrupt without affecting their other businesses.

[Goathead]

25. American Express Black Card

I think I saw something about American Express having a "black card" that has no credit limit. Really what is the point? I guess it is just one more thing to make their lives just that much more simpler.

[Zynx]

27. Yep - Celeb credit card

If you have to ask for it, you don't deserve to have it. Really.

I fail to understand the point of super-rich people using credit cards anyway. They can pay cash for anything.

[serryjw]

45. 30 days for FREE

is a long time to grow interest.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

67. Maybe they need credit cards to buy stuff online or

over the phone.

[kendall]

71. Why would you not want to use a credit card always?

I use a credit card whenever possible, who wants to carry any cash on you at all when anything now (incuding McDonalds) can be bought with a small square of plastic?

I imagine it's even easier when you don't even have to worry how much you are charging.

Sure very rich people could spend cash for anything - but they're also probably not going to want to carry backpacks full of cash around everywhere.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

81. Must use credit cards, can't pay cash, must get frequent flyer miles

and using credit cards lowers your automobile insurance, it ought to be illegal, but they base your auto insurance on your credit score.

[BlueStateGirl]

51. That card gets you 24 hour concierge service, access to private jets

and all sorts of really extravagant things.

I have had a few customers use them in the bar. Really shitty tippers, for the most part.

[ObaMania]

28. Take the * daughters for example...

.. the bar they go to in DC used to be one you could go freely in and out of, but from what I understand is now invite only. I'd say that's sheltering them from the common folk.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

82. The Drunken Shrub Bitches need a bar? Don't they need a private

rehab facility instead? Or a tour of duty in Iraq? That'd be just right, if you ask me, if Iraq is so important, The Drunken Shrub Twins should go, and right away!

[Hizzy]

95. which bar?

which bar is that?

[MountainLaurel]

103. Smith Point

in Georgetown.

[Hizzy]

108. thank you

[MountainLaurel]

110. De nada

The only reason I know this is because the gossip writer in the Washington Post frequently mentions it, and I like to read his column to see what shit the wingers have been in this time. (Was a great snippet about Paul Bremer's security detail harassing a woman who was parked next to him at a grocery store, preventing her from getting to her car when her child was inside it.)

[serryjw]

44. Funny story....

When I moved back to NYC in 1983 I met my cousin whom was 24 and while we were at lunch she asked me whom I used for my 'asset management' account? At the time I didn't even know what that meant......needlessly to say..i had no assets

[Hizzy]

49. not always a choice

Quite often they travel separately and secretly out of necessity and not choice. The super rich are often viewed as a brand of celebrity. They don't always want to be isolated, but sometimes they have no other option.

[alittlelark]

60. Very,very few fall into that category.... most are unknown to us.

The society pages dissappeared from papers for a reason. Common folk knowing how these people live on 4th and 5th generation inherited wealth might get, well, upset.

[Hizzy]

109. a secluded lifestyle isn't appealing...

It's not about the poor knowing the wealthy... it's about the moderately wealthy knowing the wealthy. They have a society within our greater society, just like poor people do. Not to mention, many of them work long hours in demanding businesses which may not be physically strenuous, but sure as hell is emotionally draining. Some of them have jets so they can move around the country or the world in order to do their jobs. For some big business men and women, having a jet isn't much less practical than having a car to get to and from work... Not that I'm condoning making and stockpiling wealth, but if we're going to discuss this, isn't it important to see these "extravagant" items from both perspectives?

Seeing how they live may make the less wealthy mad, but what does that solve? Being angry isn't a solution.

Condemning people who were born into money doesn't make any more sense than condemning someone who was born into poverty...

[tralfaz]

68. I agree

but the sad thing about it is that you just described the politicians at the top of both political parties. It almost makes you think of whose interests they are really looking out for, huh?

[kwassa]

8. yes they do .. that world exists inside their minds

I went to college with some very wealthy people. My neighbor would go buy herself an Yves St. Laurent dress when she became depressed. I had a part-time job driving a cab.

Having money often goes hand-in-hand with a sense of entitlement. "I am rich because I deserve to be, which is because I am inherently better in some way."

The flip side is that those that aren't rich have something a little bit wrong with them.


F. Scott Fitzgerald: "the rich are different from you and me"
Ernest Hemingway: "Yes, they have more money."

I agree with Fitzgerald.

[kwassa]

12. A full Fitzgerald quote

Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. They think, deep in their hearts, that they are better than we are because we had to discover the compensations and refuges of life for ourselves. Even when they enter deep into our world or sink below us, they still think that they are better than we are. They are different.

Fitzgerald, F. Scott
Riches

http://www.borntomotivate.com/FScottFitzgerald.html

[serryjw]

46. The difference between OLD & NEW money

Trumps kids are all highly educated and work as hard as he does..I'm sure Gate's kids will when they get older.

[natrat]

89. there is something to be said about rich people who are cool

Although kenedy wealth came from bootlegging it seems that some of them are in touch with the rest of the world. The exception to the rule is really beautiful i think; the rule is pretty gross

[Goathead]

17. Yes, in their heads

We all live in the same world. If I get from L.A. to New York in coach or first class it doesn't matter to me. It is the experience that counts. For somebody that flies from L.A. to N.Y. every day that experience is nothing special but for me to do it would be fantastic experience. I know it sounds trite but the best things in life really are free and the rich will never truly know that. I guess it is all about access, however how many of the ultra rich would go to Hawaii and do work trade on an organic farm, living on next to nothing. That is something that most rich people will never experience, however it is an experience that I cherish.

[Djinn]

33. yes and no

yes it's true that money can't buy happiness and that the best things in life are free but they both have limits.

if you're talking about entertainment etc then cheap is fine but sometimes it's a bit more serious - if you have a serious or long term illness having that money makes a HUGE difference, even the difference between living and dying, if you're charged with a crime it can also mean the difference between life and death.

and while money can't buy you happiness neither can poverty - beleive me it's possible to be poor and miserable too!

[Hizzy]

50. what we don't see

I feel like this world has been blinded by Paris Hilton... I know SO many people whose parents had enough money to support them, their grandchildren and great grandchildren quite comfortably, but who still chose to get jobs, whose parent's forced them to get an education and who support themselves for the most part. Sure their gifts are larger and vacations are more extravagent... but that doesn't mean they will never spend a summer living hand to mouth or work for their money. Open your eyes. This attitude is making the gap bigger... not smaller.

[grilled onions]

9. Indeed They Do

"Average" people worry over basics like food,shelter,healthcare,what they will do if they lose their job. They find ways of how to stretch a pound of hamburger for several meals. Fashion goes out the window as covering your behind is more important then whats trendy. The family car needs to run but doesn't require to be loaded with extras. They learn to stretch,to make do or do without. They know they can't just get more cash whenever it suits their needs. On the other hand the wealthy often have no idea what economizing is. Some live so detached from basic thrift. Many have never had to balance a budget. Never did without and when money seems in short supply they can either cash something in like stocks or give themselves a raise( some have this perk). They live above the rest and often think the peons are poor because they "mismanage" their minimum wage income. Little wonder when they turn to politics they feel they have access to an unlimited piggybank.

[Art_from_Ark]

19. There are the "old money" people, and there are the nouveau riche

The "old money" people, I believe, are mostly as you describe, while the nouveau riche sometimes abandon their less wealthy roots, and sometimes hold on to them. Sam Walton and Benjamin Spock were two examples of the latter. Walton, even when he was rolling in the billions, would still drive his old pick-up through the streets of Bentonville, Arkansas, and it was not uncommon to see him around town, for example, getting his hair cut at the $5 barber shop. Benjamin Spock came into the money with his famous baby book, and he and his wife had a nice house out on Beaver Lake near Rogers, Arkansas, but he would still go to the local shoe repair shop, on the other side of the tracks, to get his $25 shoes mended.

[Goathead]

32. 1 lb. hamburger, two boxes Mac 'n Cheese, half onion, four cloves garlic

equals two dinners for two and a couple of lunches.

[LiberalFighter]

10. How often do you have occasion to socialize with the rich?

How many of them would be worth the time and effort to know?

Would there be any consequences?

[Coastie for Truth]

22. Went to grad school with some very rich kids, several categories

1. The H. John Heinz types -- great wealth demands great public service. These are the wealthy who actually teach in the public schools, go into public service etc. My 9th grade history teacher was the daughter of one the wealthiest families in Pittsburgh.

2. The majority of the old, inherited money types -- we moved in different worlds. They had a sense of entitlement.

3. The nouveau riche - just like us - but on an elegant grander scale (like I had a VW Bug, and this buddy had an MB 300 SLS with the gull wing doors - but he was a nice guy).

4. Mafioso Kids - like the nouveau riche - but even more down to earth. I had one Mafioso kid as a classmate (his family's "business" went "legit" - but he is still a down to earth guy; nothing fancy, red wine and pasta). Just a weird sense of humor - when we would leave he would say "Check the rocker panels on your car before you turn the ignition key - only kidding."

[ultraist]

23. How wealthy?

What do you consider wealthy? (net worth)

[LiberalFighter]

29. At least 200K but think 500K more likely or more

Revised above... I was thinking annual income but...

have to be 500K net total income or more period.

[ultraist]

39. It depends on how they spend it

Income is not net worth. Net worth is what you have in assests. Income is what you produce off of your work or off of your assests.

There are loads people in our area that have incomes in the $300,000 and $400,000 range but piss it all away every year on huge houses, cars, vacations, etc. and have zero in net worth aside from a little bit of equity in the home they live in. I do not consider these people wealthy. Yes, they have large disposal incomes, but they do not invest, thus have no wealth.

Yet, I know people who I consider wealthy, (have net worths in the several millions) and live more modestly. And then of course, there are those that have multi million dollar net worths and live way over the top. I think that's what most people think of when they consider the wealthy.

The majority of people who earn over $100,000 voted for Bush. What does that say?

[Zynx]

64. "The majority of people who earn over $100,000 voted for Bush."

They would be voting their own economic self-interest. Bush cuts their taxes.

It's really not a hard calculus for most people who don't look beyond their nose.

Now the $35,000 a year Republicans, those are the real problem.

[natrat]

92. oh no no

average rich these days is 2-500 k a year
real rich starts at 2million a year at least me thinks;;;not that any of it makes awhole lot of difference

here in the bay area i was surprised to learn the other day that a middle class hosehold has to pull in 90k a year to be middle class

[Redleg]

15. I agree. That's why I refuse to kow-tow to wealthy.

I am a humble college professor.

[Tace]

18. The Wealthiest Person I Know Personally Is Absolutely Miserable

She's all alone, dying of a dozen different diseases caused by her unhappiness. Nasty and neurotic. She didn't earn a penny of her huge estate. She inherited it from her parents, whom she lived a block away from her entire life. She's in a hell of her own making.

[Cleita]

30. Many seem to be unusually unhappy.

Little things that ordinary people take in stride seem to eat away at them.

[Swede]

21. They only think they're happy.

A co-worker always says this with phaser set on sarcasm.

[Zynx]

24. Hey, don't hate the rich.

My family is rich and heavily supportive of the Democrats and progressive values in general.

Take the class warfare elsewhere. :)

[ikojo]

36. Thanks for the RW talking point....

There IS a class war...look at the Republican agenda of privatizing social security, making it even more difficult to unionize and their goal of tort reform (lawsuits are the only way that average Americans have to hold corporations accountable).

I call it like I see it....

There has been a war on workers since the beginning of capitalism.

[Djinn]

37. who's hating?

she asked do they live in a different world and they do. Do you think that many of the rich (and it's obviously a subjective term) understand the anxiety involved in knowing you could loose your job at any time, the anxiety involved when all your bills have FINAL WARNING stamped across them, etc etc etc

As for class warfare, I'll let Al Franken speak for me:

In her book, A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, Barbara Tuchman writes about a peasant revolt in 1358 that began in the village of St. Leu and spread throughout the Oise Valley. At one estate, the serfs sacked the manor house, killed the knight, and roasted him on a spit in front of his wife and kids. Then, after ten or twelve peasants violated the lady, with his children watching, they forced her to eat the roasted flesh of her husband and then killed her.

That is class warfare.

Arguing over the optimum marginal tax rate (or whether the rich see things differently) for the top one percent is not.

if we get to the point where people are marauding through Beverly Hills slaughtering folks and cheering while the blood of the capitalists runs in the streets THEN talk about class warfare

[cali]

41. I disagree

and I also come from a wealthy family. The rich are different, and yes, there is often a sense of entitlement. My parents are dems, and my father repeatedly said the greatest problem in this country is the growing gap between the rich and poor. Still, even with that fairly enlightened point of view, it was an insulated life. Country day school then east coast prep schools for all of us. My mother always had a full time housekeeper and gardener. No jet, but a plane and sailboat. Homes in different parts of the world. Of course, that type of wealth effects everything. It doesn't mean everyone who comes from wealth is unable to relate, but I don't think the majority of those who are wealthy do. And if there's class welfare, and I believe there is, it's perpetrated by the greedy mentality of many wealthy people. In this country, we worship the rich and loathe the poor.

[Zynx]

66. I agree with the increasing gap.

My father is in the investment banking business - how we have enough to qualify as rich by just about any standard - and it is his opinion that the US is either at, or sliding quickly towards, a system where 5% of the people have real wealth and 95% of the people are either living heavily in debt to try to act rich, or are heavily in debt and still not rich.

The issue is that most people don't have a concept of what real money actually is. I went to public HS - we have extremely good public schools in this part of Wisconsin, so why bother with private - and I would be in classes with guys who acted like jackasses because their family made $120K a year and had a bunch of stock market paper money in the late 1990's and three leased BMW's.

The difference was that our family income was closer to seven figures per year than just into six figures like theirs was, and when the stock market tanked, we just lost some money. We didn't have our savings wiped out. Part of this is because we know how to invest, but a bigger part of it is that our money had been around longer than theirs and was much larger than theirs.

If people actually got it through their heads what *real* wealth is, you would see much less support for Republican tax agendas. Yeah, sure, they help the guy making 100K and owning a little stock, but they *really* help people like us.

The estate tax in particular is a good example. Most people, when you subtract debts from the value of an estate, have nothing at all to be worried about if the estate tax exemptions were raised a little and indexed for inflation.

My father, OTOH, is sick of the planning he has to do to avoid the family estate being decimated if he and my mom got killed in a car wreck tomorrow and left the three kids. At this point, we would still be hit hard.

If my parents both live to a natural old age, the three kids in this question are going to split something in the mid-eight figure range, just due to 35-40 more years of compounding investment growth.

For reference, NONE of this money is inherited. My father grew up in a rough blue collar neighborhood of Detroit, went to Michigan on an Evans Scholorship (golf caddy) and he and my mother pretty much had a couple hundred bucks when they got married.


I'm pretty sure he'd deck someone who would say he doesn't deserve to have the money that he does as he earned every last bit of it, but we also generally don't live like assholes, in large part because of this background.

[walldude]

43. Sorry but your family is the exception not the rule

and this is a class war. Since Bush has taken office he has stepped up the class war. Any cuts in government aid the wealthy and supress the poor. Education, welfare, medicare, social security. They talk of the American Dream and then do everything in their power to keep the dream away from "the common folk". After all if everyone were rich who would do all their work for them? Who would build their homes, fix their cars, cook their meals, clean their houses, take care of their kids? While there are exceptions to every rule, like your family, don't doubt for a minute that there is a class war.

[earth mom]

75. Exactly-Great Post! And don't forget God favors the Rich...

not the middle class or poor...so most of the rest of us are on Gods shit list and not worth the paper that list is printed on. :eyes:

[mhr]

52. But It Is Class Warfare - I Have Been Unemployed for 57 months

I hold two college degrees: BSEE, MBA
15 + years of professional work experience
Served as a Naval Officer and was honorably discharged
Also a commercial pilot

I have absolutely no tolerance for ultra wealthy and the mess they have made of our economy.

They can take their tax cuts and shove them where the sun don't shine.

If they present their derriere to me, I will personally shove it for them.

[ultraist]

61. LMAO!!!

It's despicable, I agree. We are pretty fortunate compared to a lot of people, but we certainly are not the ultra wealthy. Very few ultra wealthy people vote Democrat. I think that says quite a lot.

Selfish greedy bastards!

[ikojo]

31. I have friends who would qualify as rich....it's not that they move

in a different world (although some do), it's that they encounter the world differently than you and I. I don't think they tend to worry about public services such as cops and such because they can afford private security and good security systems. They tend not to worry too much about medical care and access to it because due to class based connections they tend to know doctors and other health care providers (such as dentists) and they may receive free or reduced care. The same goes for lawyers, if they need legal services they may know lawyers or have one in the family and have access to free or reduced legal services.

They don't worry much about public schools because they can afford to send their kids to the best private schools. I know a lot of people who send their kids to John Burroughs or Country Day (two very expensive private schools in St Louis).

The one wealthy person I am close to does not worry about a job because if this person is laid off, they can live on interest earned from a trust fund. This person really does not understand when I worry about being laid off.

What I have noticed is that the farther up the income scale one goes the more things one gets for free.

I am sure there are worries when one is rich, worrying about how to pay the bills is not one of them or at least not high on the list.

[mtnsnake]

34. I know some rich people with yachts & huge homes, and it doesn't mean

a thing if they have no friends to share it all with. Many of them are lonely and discontented. Not all, but many. Think about it.

[Acryliccalico]

35. The rich do have

a different perspective on life but there are different types of rich just as there are different types of poor.

Some of the rich have been raised to use the poor and some have been raised to feel obligated to help the poor. Some have a sense of obligation, to better human existence and some feel a sense that, somehow, they are better than the poor and deserve to be wealthy.

Some rich will use their wealth to help society and some will use their wealth to just accumulate more wealth.

People are people. I am poor but feel wealthy. I imagine that there are wealthy that feel very poor.

They aren't different than we are they just don't realize it.

[Liberty Belle]

40. Yes, definitely. I've interviewed many wealthy people in their homes.

The level of decadence is astounding. These people squander money on gold-plated bathroom fixtures, gilded ceilings and mink bedspreads, appeasing their consciences by donating money to their favorite charities--usually the Opera, the Symphony or an Art Museum that they frequent, while turning a blind eye to human suffering.

I've heard many a rant about unfair taxation from those with six luxury cars in the garage and live-in help to keep up mansions of 10,000 square feet for a family of four.

The rich are getting richer, while the rest of us struggle to meet ends meet. Bush sped this process along by getting rid of the inheritance tax and cutting other taxes for rich people and corporations.

Our country would be in much better shape, with plenty of money for most important programs, if the wealthy had to pay their fair share.

[oneold1-4u]

69. Russian history

Gaining knowledge from just reading can give a lot of insight to the differences, being ultra rich and extremely poor. A lifetime of endeavor to be content is not a bad life, but when one has no means of end ever then the poor become changed to one who can rob or fight.
Hunger creates the hunter and when those who cause the hunger have all of everything on the table, that is where the hunter will go.
Russian aristocracy created their way of life with the use of the poor and massive credit. The Bolsheviks created communism to enlist the poorest to share in the wealth of the aristocracy. That wasn't too hard, and the revolution was great, but they never were able to recover from debts of the nation even with the walls of the cold war that they used for perpetuation of the working class.
Where is this nation going today? What route is being used for total socialism under a dictator who resembles many of those of the past?
Where do we go when America cannot see the dream that was Democracy?

[Liberty Belle]

96. I wish I had the answer.

Thanks for the historical context. There are clearly some parallels here, and also to the French Revolution, when the wealthy and pampered aristocracy was so out of touch with the suffering of ordinary citizens--until the guillotine fell, of course.

[bvar22]

42. I've always found graphics useful in this situation.

This should help in visualizing the Difference:

[bvar22]

47. Bill Moyers calls it CLASS WARFARE!

Bill Moyers is one of the last of a dying breed, Journalists with Integrity. The following was excerpted from a remarkable Bill Moyers Commentary.

What happened is the rich declared class war and spent what it took to win.

<snip>

The rich buy the laws and loopholes they want from Congress, and from the White House, they buy executive protection of their privileges.


Then there's the new farm bill that will give more than $50 billion in new subsidies to the richest and largest farms in America.

And the new energy bill that takes your tax dollars and transfers them to the richest energy companies in the country.



Remember our recent story about how Enron used stock options to avoid paying taxes in four out of the last five years?
Well, even as we talk, the White House and business lobbies, with Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman as their point man, are working to block reform of stock options.

Yes, the rich declared class war and won.

All that's left is for politics to divide up the spoils.

Read the Rest

[ultraist]

53. The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer

It's true. The numbers don't lie. The gap is increasing.

Inheritance taxes are due to be terminated in a few years. I don't think people realize how much money will be taken out of the tax base when this happens. It's obscene.

When CEOS are raking in 20 million a year in an income and taking deferred bonuses to skirt out of income taxes all while we have children going without heat and proper medical, there is something terribly wrong.

[mhr]

55. If The Wealthy Are Taxed Too Much And The Poor Are Taxed Too Little

Then why is the income gap between rich and poor growing?

'nuff said - case closed.

Class warfare - BRING IT ON!

[Hizzy]

48. It's all about what's around you...

Just because someone has money does NOT mean that they isolate themselves from the rest of society or think they're better than anyone else. I grew up in an area with extremely rich and extremely poor people, yet very little social stratification is evident. It may be an exception to the rule, but the fact that the exception exists should be enough to make us question the rule.

[bvar22]

57. Very little "stratification"

Extremely rich...extremely poor....very little stratification....


I would love to see the pictures from the last Black Tie Dinner Ball!

or the last Stone Soup Rent Party!

What DOES a rich man bring to a Pot Luck Rent party?

[ultraist]

58. That is amazing! No social stratification?

So the extremely poor lived in houses just as nice, attended private schools, had the best doctors, went on luxury vacations, drove luxury cars? WOW! Where was this?

[Hizzy]

94. thats what you have

those things are posessions.... not how you behave or interact. my point is that all rich people aren't snobs and to post message after message about how wrong they have it about life is NOT the answer. How many people on this thread actually have rich friends? make some... they aren't evil. If you could afford to give your children the best, you wouldn't?

[NAO]

54. They genuinely believe they have "earned" their wealth

...that they fully "deserve" it; that "anyone" who tries can "make it" because of our wonderful free country.

They systematically ignore all the money they inherited, all the advantages they were given, all the connections that helped them. They systematically ignore all the screw ups they have made that would have put people without a family money safety net into deep, lasting abject poverty.

They fail to see how little they actually produce in relation to how much they own. They fail to see how grossly out of proportion their earnings are to their output compared to even well paid workers in their employ.

They focus only on what their advantages have allowed them to do - never taking the time to realize that they would never have had the opportunity to do those things in the first place if not for their inherited wealth.

They see the poor as being poor because they are lazy and/or stupid. They do not see that many poor people are more intelligent and more industrious and more creative and more persistent than themselves, and that the only reason for the vast difference in outcome is the starting position.

They are quick to point out failures or screw ups or bad judgment on the part of poor people, and attribute their poverty to these factors, but they never see that they do the same things yet remain wealthy and insulated from economic insecurity and the fear of destitution.

I could go on and on and on...

[ultraist]

59. That's why they vote for Bush!

They don't believe in social programs or fair taxing so that the wealth is distributed more equitably. They think it's fine that a small privileged few rule over the rest of us.

Why should they pay a very small percentage of income they make off of one of their investments to cover medical care for needy children? Those children are undeserving but their children should have THE BEST of everything.

For fucks sake, why should someone forgoe another eyelid lift so that a working class child can have cancer treatments? That is absurd! Is this a democracy or what?

[sweetheart]

84. In all fairness, wealthy people are just as likely to vote democratic

I find your stereotype facile. There are indeed "some" who fit your
wide brush, but as well, there are those who don't.

Wealth is a state of mind, one without fear. In this regard, what you
discuss are materialist hoarders perhaps, who have spent so much time
gathering together a hoarde, that the need to dust it all off, turns
them in to shrews.

You can only stand in 1 room at a time. Wealth and enlightenment are
orthogonal, in the sense that there is no correlation. That also means,
however, that enlightenment can be materially wealthy or poor, and
certainly enlightenment fits none of your childish stereotypes.

Those who are wealthy, do not obviously hang out with people who make
such ridiculous value judgements based on their material lifestyle,
as were they to, you'd be wiser to your miscalculation.

[mitchum]

63. Sure, but one can still spit in their food...

if one is so inclined

[ConsAreLiars]

65. The movie "Roger and Me" by Moore is a nice case study.

A few scenes at a lawn party with top management at GM. See it if you have not. And even these folks are only the lower tier of "the rich." From my limited personal experience with that lower rung of "the rich," they are not normal. They have very little compassion because they have never suffered. They have very little respect for others, because they measure worth by things and power rather than character.

That said, of course there are exceptions. Many who have been born with or earned great wealth have used their wealth toward altruistic goals.

Beyond and at the top of the vague category of "the rich" are the ruling class. They are the golems created by the laws of capitalism, and they operate according to completely non-human rules. They call the extension of corporatism "freedom" and mean it.

[hfojvt]

70. two anecdotes

One was when Henry Kissinger visited Milwaukee. His limo broke down and he had to ride in a pick-up truck. This was a huge novelty to him. He may as well have been on the back of a camel or in a rickshaw.
Second, in Howard Fast's autobiography "Growing up Red" he talks about having dinner with a socialist candidate who happened to be very rich. They had an ice cream desert, about two bowls out of a gallon or so. The candidate, who was very progressive, thought nothing about just letting the rest of the desert melt whereas Howard was aghast.
That is why I am not a big fan of Hillary. She may have a progressive voting record, but I do not believe she pumps her own gas, does her own dishes, goes grocery shopping, cleans her own toilets, cuts her own grass, etc. In Lincoln's lexicon of "of the people, by the people and for the people," she is not one of the people. Supposedly, Kerry was hurt by the same perception.
But Somerby assures me that the incident with Bush and the grocery store scanners was media hype.

[ElectroPrincess]

73. Yes, even fellow Democrats who are wealthy are a mystery to me ...

I met a gal and her son at the polls (you know the presidential race last year, lol).

We really enjoyed each other's company and she asked me to come to a Christmas Party she was having just for her friends up near D.C.

OMG, when we arrived at their house we realized that they were "filthy rich." I'm talking artwork displays that I've never seen in any other home of friends and family.

We stayed for two hours and talked at length with a retired Navy Captain since and a couple of other folks who lived near DC and were part of the Beltway Bandits.

The bottom line is that although they were "very intelligent" and enjoyable people to converse with I felt out of place. There's something about accumulation of expensive items to display in one's home that does not settle well with me.

It's hard to acknowledge, even to myself, but I was raised lower middle class (and now, just mainstream middle class). Therefore, I continue to harbor a certain amount of innate resentment for both liberal and conservative Upper Class folks.

Although a wealthy democratic gal I met at the polling place is still the same person as before I knew her finances, I can't remain her friend. Specifically, I can't get over how, to me, the fixtures and artwork dripped of old money wealth and IMO seemed gauche and ostentatious. I thought about how "all that worth" could pay for other more important items - for others and even for their family.

It's weird and prejudiced - but I don't like RICH PEOPLE very much regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum.

[Disturbed]

76. The U.S.A. is an Oligarchy

Ruled by the wealthy.

"I'll give you one other thought. Let me just leave you with one other thought about taxing the rich. You know how that works. A lot of the rich are able to get accountants, so they don't -- they're able to dodge. You've seen it before. We're going to tax the rich, and then they figure out how not to get taxed. So guess who ends up paying? You do. And we're not going to let him do it to us. We're not going to let him wreck that economy by running up our taxes. "

Who said this?

[Goathead]

101. It is a plutocracy as well.

Governed by the wealthy. Has it always been this way through out the ages? I know that Native Americans and other tribal peoples aren't like this.

[ms.smiler]

78. I had the occasion to attend a dinner cruise in Newport, Rhode Island

with numerous wealthy individuals. I was raised in a working/middle class family and taught to be polite and mannerly. I strive for ladylike behavior and unwittingly expected this to prove valuable in the company of wealthy individuals. The cruise commenced and a fellow at our table, who knew everyone on board, told us about those in attendance - their wealth and how it was amassed. Most had assets in the 50 million dollar range with the least wealthy person having 11 million in assets.

The cruise continued, the music played and I enjoyed my wine and the stories about the multi-millionaires who were seated at other tables. Bread was served to our table but dinner was delayed. An announcement was made finally, with an apology, explaining that the chef was not accurately informed about the number of persons on the cruise and that they were unable to serve everyone dinner. Understandably, the ticket price of this private club function would be refunded.

Oh my goodness, what an onslaught! I thought I was witnessing a mutiny. Surrounding me were miserable rich men and women now sporting angry faces. They converged on the staff people and waved their arms. They raised their voices and verbally abused the staff. One tuxedoed man darn near physically assaulted a waiter. This behavior erupted from folks who last ate at lunch time and who could easily dine after the cruise. I can’t begin to imagine how they would have reacted to a need to abandon ship.

Meanwhile, I viewed missing dinner as a disappointment and an inconvenience, but certainly not something that should noticeably alter my behavior. I maintained my smile and remained seated at my table while these folks continued their nasty campaign. I ate my bread, drank my wine, conversed, and when I heard that dessert was available I took my coffee cup and saucer over to the dessert table.

I said, "Excuse me" to the waiter and the poor young fellow flinched. He haltingly said, "Yes." I asked if I could have some coffee and he smiled and excitedly said "yes, certainly." He poured coffee for me and I said, "thank you." He remarked that I was very polite. I offered my observation that perhaps not everyone had been polite and he responded shaking his head, "no, no they haven't been polite."

I grew up thinking the value of ladylike behavior was to ensure my ability to move in different circles or to gain acceptance in society. My upbringing actually had nothing to do with such things; instead, it was a matter of character. I had wrongly assumed the wealthy were well bred, well raised, and well versed in social activities. I came to see that wealth afforded no more than a veneer of nicer clothing, automobiles, homes, etc… Wealth can’t even indicate the suitability of dinner companions.

I wasn’t raised by a family that owned banks, rail roads or coal mines. Thankfully, I was raised by the daughter of an immigrant from the Ukraine who was a coal miner.

[H2O Man]

79. Yes, but ....

it's important to remember that "service industry" refers to a large group of jobs, many of which qualify people for inclusion in the wealthy elite. "Service industry" includes doctors as well as convenience store clerks, for example.

It would be silly to think that the multi-millionare politician who is registered as a democrat has more in common with the working class democrats, than with multi-millionare republicans. One need only look at the residential patterns in the community/city in which they reside. Rich folk live in neighborhoods with other rich folks. They don't live next door to the working class, and they sure as heck don't have neighbors who are on public assistance.

Rich folk often have business(es) that employ and involve the wallets and pocket books of the middle- and lower income people. But take a look at who they employ in the summer months, etc. It is usually other rich people's kids. They take care of their own.

It's high time that we take care of our own. Sometimes that means looking at things in economic/class terms. Here's a real good example: by some funny coincidence, on the very day that Howard Dean announced that he was running for DNC chair, Chris Heinz came on DU to advocate for his friend Simon Rosenberg. Now, Simon is a firm supporter of the Bush military aggression in the Middle East.

The truth is, people in Chris Heinz's position don't need to worry. They'll never face a draft. They can afford college without even considering the military as an avenue to further education. They don't need to worry about unemployment, because they can coast without a job. I asked Chris about the fact that his buddy is pro-Iraqi War, but of course he never answered.

Sometime soon, we need to show the rich folk that they can't take for granted that we'll vote for them. Our votes aren't for sale. And that's one concept rich people don't tend grasp, because in their world, everything has a price.

[Goathead]

102. Look at how many trees there are in a neighborhood

The rich live in nice park like settings with large trees. Not always, but it is a pretty good indicator.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

80. They sure enough do, and that's why American's are putting up with

molestation at airports, because, it's only us middle class slobs who have to tolerate it, the "owner class" have their own private Lear jets, and it's no bother to them.

[ElectroPrincess]

83. Oh and guess what, there will be more conveniences for the WEALTHY

in the years to come. You only have to pay more.

Here in D.C. there's talk to turn the car pool lanes into a toll road. Therefore, only those workers who can afford the hefty toll will be able to make their meetings. After all, the wealthy's time is so much more important than the average beltway slug worker. :P

[sweetheart]

85. Material wealth comes from geography

A study by some professors of geography in the UK, confirms something
i know innately about material wealth, that it is related to geography.
In this sense, if you live in a poor area, you will more likely face
crime, rape, people wishing you ill, people paranoid about material
wealth (as several on this thread confess), and destructive states of
mind that one must eschew to become wealthy.

So wealth then, buys geographic space in the places where the earth has
the most powerful aura. Those that live and dream in those places are
more likely to have their dreams empowered. Thus, wealth is indeed
about the allocation of land per a previous discussion about chavez's
land reform... just specific areas of land.

In a highly advanced culture, those areas, would be set aside for all
the people, for universities and public places that all people might
be able to have access to the dimensions of power.... and VERY powerful
places have indeed inspired that very thing, one you can see at the
campus of most large universities and national parks... that someone
stood in that place and had an inspiration that the land be put to the
benefit of ALL people... the inspiration itself, a powerful dream from
the land and its dharma.

So to monopolize wealth, one must monopolize land, prevent mixing,
and prevent the "poor" from living in a wealthy area, even in a small
room in the cellar, as any franchise in a power place is just that.
Even the wealthiest can only live in 1 room at a time... and all
artwork is just paint, metal and appearance at the end of the day.

Manhattan is a place where the very wealthy share space with the
less fortunate, and you'll find that if you wish to change your
franchise in life, living in manhattan can be a way to do so, more
so than being coralled in to a trailer park in san antonio texas.
The social wealth comes from mixing, and where there is no mixing,
the poor stay poor, and the rich stay inbred.

So the rich only live in a "different" world if you let them that
power in YOUR mind. Otherwise, they live in this world, and are
lonely behind their gates, as much as anyone else is lonely behind
their curtains. They fear death, just like all people do, and no
amount of pleasure cruises and "firing" people changes that. Material
power is not enlightenment. Don't give it that stigma.

On the wheel of birth and death, all people will experience wealth,
and all people will experience loss, and death. I feel incredibly
rich to be able to roll in our bed with happy dogs. In this regard,
wealthy experiences are those in private, and material wealth buys
one the space to have a private life.

To not be famous is great wealth, as then one can be incognito and
enjoy the smell of china town at midnight, of having a friendly chat
with the cash register person at the supermarket. All around us are
rich and wealthy experiences, and what seems the difference are that
those who value their state of mind (wealth), take the time to be
kind to their waitress/waiter, and they tip well. Those who are full
of arrogance, even the arrogance of poverty, ignore the waitress,
and treat other people like wood.

[dryan]

88. I grew up in....

Winter Park, Florida (proper - not just the zip code number either) which is one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in America. My mother managed a local dry cleaners. I was never made to feel uncomfortable because my mother taught us that people treat you the way you allow them to. (I think Eleanor Roosevelt said that first.) The only thing I ever noticed about wealthy people is the sense of entitlement. I used to be the receptionist for one of the wealthiest men in Central Florida (name withheld). His bank used to send someone out to the office to pick up his deposit so he wouldn't be "bothered" by having to wait in line at the bank.

I have been to parties and affairs at the homes of many wealthy people and never felt uncomfortable. I have had many events in my home where wealthy people were invited. They didn't feel uncomfortable either.

[natrat]

93. i think you hit the nail on the head

very thoughtful

[Goathead]

105. "...and all your money won't another minute buy."

I like the analogy that even a Picasso is really only paint and canvas in a frame of wood and metal. Humans can assign wealth to anything that they want but in the end it is just material and you can't take it with you. If the rich started seeing baby shit as a sign of status you better believe that would solve the world's population problems.

[CrispyQ]

107. "He who dies with the most toys wins."

Yeah, but he still dies!

My husband & I have experienced economic slumps now & then, many times at our own choosing, as one or the other of us will take some time off from working or accept a lesser paying job that is less stressful or more in tuned with our values. Our philosophy is: "You can always make more money, but when your time is spent, it's gone for good!"

I am fortunate to work for a man who is worth about $100 million. This is his 3rd start up company & he hopes it will make him a billionaire. He is a very decent man to work for, pays all of us very well & picks up 80% of our medical/dental for the entire family. He drives a Prius & his wife & child will be left a decent amount of money when he passes, but most of his estate will be left to charitable foundatioins. He also votes Democrat! However, I do believe he is in the minority as far as the ultra-rich go.

[Blue_Tires]

90. don't forget the unforgiving contempt the rich have

for unions....god forbid something trivial like workers' rights get in the way of a fat 4th qtr financial report

[Yavin4]

91. HBO Did A Documentary on The Heirs of the Super-Rich

It was done by an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune. he interviewd other heirs. Most of these kids are clueless people. If they lost their money tomorrow, they'd literally die in the streets.

[MountainLaurel]

106. I'd pay to see that n/t

[newportdadde]

97. Rich is like a lot of things in the eye of the beholder.

If you make 60k you may seem rich to someone making 25k. If your the 60k guy 120k may seem rich etc. But as you do go up the scale it gets more obvious, for instance over 200k not many people step over that regularly as a percentage of the population of the US as a whole.

If you listen to Dave Ramsey(financial guy) he had a lady call in one time trying to decide what to do with her husbands huge Porche payment(they owed like 90k on it). Her husband make something like 300k and they had NO SAVINGS of any kind it was unreal. I could pay of my house in 3 months with his income. But they like so many others spend it all.

ow and on weath and voting, the polling pretty clearly show that once you hit 50k voters turn to Bush and go to 2/3 to him past 100k.

[Rebel_blogger]

100. It's about self preservation ...

The rich HAVE to vote for Bush to keep getting richer.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hangemhigh]

99. Yes, but not all of them are self absorbed assholes.

My boss is a self made zillionaire and he and his family enjoy the benefits of his years of work and sacrifice. He is also a chimp hating dem. Just last week he told me that the chimp tax cuts certainly benefit him, BUT IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. It's about what's right and what's wrong. Of course, his dedication to reality and doing the right thing are exactly what made him so successful in what is otherwise a ruthless business. I would add that he gives generously and anonymously. I know this having seen him do it and having been the beneficiary.

[MountainLaurel]

104. Add in

Things like private banking, where they get to miss the joys of federal money laundering and other laws.