America can't compete with other nations

[ErasureAcer]

America will slowly lose all of its people.

Why? Because the USA can not compete with other nations.

-Universal(Dennis Kucinich style) healthcare
-earlier retirement ages
-better social security, that will actually be there by the time he is old
and about another 3-4 reasons he listed off(Crime, etc...)

Don't believe me? My roommate(former military mechanic, now in college) is thinking of leaving to "Canadia" because America plain out sucks on everything.

We spend billions and billions of dollars on absolute shit(military) yet only one fucking guy is proposing pentagon cuts(Kucinich). Even my ex-military roommate agrees that the pentagon budget needs to be cut. AMAZING!

So what do we have...no hope at all....not even from the leading democratic candidates.

Sorry, but Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt can not restore the hope America needs. They can not turn the ultimate tide of investing in the people.

I tell ya, my roommate is serious on leaving the country...and heck, so am I. The USA has failed due to the Republican and Democratic parties settling for less than they deserve.

When other countries have universal health care, gay marriage, and governments doing things for the people(instead of cutting education spending...like the feds did to me), well then what the fuck is the point of staying here? the USA is not the land of opportunity...it is the land of gullible dorks who believe America is going to be better than Canada by electing John Kerry president.

I tell ya, I think this nation can do better...a lot better if we elected Dennis Kucinich president. We can than compete with the Denmarks and Canadas of the world. If America keeps up this act...what is even the point of living here?

[Character Assassin]

1. Don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out.

When other countries have universal health care, gay marriage, and governments doing things for the people(instead of cutting education spending...like the feds did to me)...

I take it you weren't studying rhetoric.

...well then what the fuck is the point of staying here?

None. No point whatsoever. None at all. Please leave.

the USA is not the land of opportunity...it is the land of gullible dorks who believe America is going to be better than Canada by electing John Kerry president.

Perhaps you'd prefer to cross the border in a whaaaaaaambulance.

We can than compete with the Denmarks and Canadas of the world.

'Compete' with Denmark? Oh, boy....

[ProfessorGAC]

7. For Once, C/A, We Agree Completely

The thread starter should win some sort of award for pointessness.
The Professor

[Character Assassin]

13. Indeed.

Perhaps a function of great utility here at DU would be to complement the 'number of replies' column with a 'relevancy meter' in regards to the original post.

[DealsGapRider]

9. Well said.

Let me help you pack your bags!

Last I checked, the country that people all over the world were literally dying to get to was...oh yeah, it was the United States.

[Bandit]

75. Well you better check again because that is just plain Bullshit

Propaganda and ignorance on display.

[Character Assassin]

76. Speaking of bullshit

It was just last week that it was reported in the news that a Polish woman drowned in the Rio Grande attempting to, yes, that's right, swim into the US from Mexico.

Now, then, what were you saying again?

[aneerkoinos]

80. The bullshit

US is not the only place people die trying to get in, that happens everywhere on the globe on daily bases. What is wierd is that I don't see anybody else but few USAns making the claim that US is great because people die trying to immigrate there, I don't see any Europeans or Australians boosting their national ego with similar claims. US maybe great or not, but I don't think that it is dying immigrants that make US great.

[rini]

65. Agreed

[DrGonzoLives]

2. Then leave

I'd rather not share the country with someone who considers me a "gullible dork." Especially one so spineless as to be unwilling to stay and try to fight to change things.

[sventvkg]

6. I considered leaving, but i'm a Fighter so I chose to Fight these Bastards

What he says in a lot of ways is true..We should be ashamed of ourselves for not DEMANDING that our people are taken care of FIRST AND FORMOST!!..Alot of what he said was over the top and out of anger and I can relate..I would submit that change is possible but we do need a Radical political and social movement to make it happen..Oh, and we need the average joe who doesn't follow politics to Turn the TV off and start to learn!!!

[IrateCitizen]

8. One small quibble from a fellow fighter...

We should be ashamed of ourselves for not DEMANDING that our people are taken care of FIRST AND FORMOST!!..

We should not be demanding that "our people are taken care of". We need to work hard to take care of each other, and in the process perhaps we could rediscover some sense of community that many of us are so lacking in this day and age.

[atreides1]

3. Why Not Fight, Instead Of Leaving

What made this country was the willingness of the people to sacrifice, to fight for what they believed in. Our founders tried to
go the political route, and only decided on fighting when it did not
work.

We now find ourselves in almost the same situation, we have taxation without representation, we have a president who acts more like a king,
and we have judiciary that bends over backwards for there lord.

We find ourselves taking the peaceful route, by speaking out against this tyrant and his cronies. But they have stacked the deck, with a
voting machine that can be manipulated, pandering to corporations that
have greed as their primary motivation.

Perhaps the time is coming when peaceful means will no longer work with these evil men and women. Whne that time will come is anyone's guess. But if it does, then this country will need those that are willing to fight, to sacrifice all for that most cherished thing


FREEDOM

"IT IS BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET, THEN TO LIVE ON YOUR KNEES"

Emiliano Zapata

[Blue_Chill]

4. adios amigo

This "gullible dork" will be staying. You have fun in Denmark.

[Township75]

5. So why do we have an illegal immigration problem...

if the other countries are so much better?

We still take a crap load of legal immigrants too...why do they want to come here and not go to say Denmark? Maybe they know something you don't.

Personally, I wish you and others would quit the trite line of "I'm going to leave America." because you NEVER leave. You stay here, which is one more reason no one buys the garbage you just spilled everywhere.

Maybe we will bump into each other somewhere in the US in a few years.

Till then, have a nice day:)

[TheBigGuy]

12. Actually this could be a real issue.

sort of a chain migration phenomenon.

The very skills-rich people, whos skills or expertise are in demand in other advanced countrys, could start leaving the US if the standard of living is higher there, and people from poorer, third worldish countrys would come into the US.

Sort of the brain drain combined with third-wolrdization.

I have to say, if I was a graduate from, say MIT or Sanford with an degree in some advanced scientific or engineering specialtiy living in Europe sure would be appealing.

[Township75]

15. I don't agree with this..

because the brain drain has been to this country.

First off, Austrilia with its socialized health care and other good stuff has recenlty launched a new iniative to bring back the highly skilled people that left for the US. They can teach and do research anywhere in the country they want to, and are guaranteed at least 5 years of great salary if they come back...but people are not biting. Why?

My guess is that if you are a skilled worker, you make a lot of cash, and can afford good health care and a standard of living already, so why move to Europe?

[IrateCitizen]

18. Afford good health care...

My guess is that if you are a skilled worker, you make a lot of cash, and can afford good health care and a standard of living already, so why move to Europe?

Health care is rapidly becoming unaffordable for more and more Americans, as costs climb at more than double the rate of inflation and more employers are demanding more employee contributions. This bubble may not have burst yet, but if things continue their present course, they are bound to.

Another downside to this system is that the employee is dependent on the employer for health care -- not a trivial matter if one has a family dependent on those benefits.

[Blue_Chill]

20. I disagree

If you are a highly paid employee odds are you don't ever worry about health insurance. It's provided by your employer. Hell I don't make much but mine is provided.

[IrateCitizen]

23. Do you ever stop to actually digest what others are saying, Blue_Chill?

I'm not talking necessarily about things "as they are now". What I'm talking about is trends. First, that the cost of health insurance has been increasing at an exponential rate the past few years. Second, that employers are beginning to pass this cost on to their employees.

While this may not be a major problem YET for most "highly paid employees", it IS becoming an issue for more and more people. Within the past year, my health insurance contribution more than doubled. While it may not be a big deal right now, a few more years of it will make it a big deal!

Secondly, in an increasingly "flexible" (meaning layoff-prone) job market, people are bound to become more anxious considering that their health insurance is provided by an increasingly unreliable source of employment -- especially those employees with children.

[Blue_Chill]

19. Agreed

If you get a good job in this country there is very little motivation to move. The low paid workers however do have cause to move. However xenophobic Europe does not want them.

[IrateCitizen]

21. That's a preposterous statement, Blue_Chill

If you get a good job in this country there is very little motivation to move.

Can you name me a country in which there is an incentive to move, in the event you get a good job? No matter WHERE you are, it's a reason to stay!

[Township75]

22. Well if it is a reason to stay, why is his statement preposterous?

I don't understand...it looks as if you agree with his statement and then expanded upon it to include all countries.

[Blue_Chill]

26. When did I say otherwise?

Can you name me a country in which there is an incentive to move, in the event you get a good job? No matter WHERE you are, it's a reason to stay!

I didn't even mention other nations. Don't put words in my mouth after bitching at me because I didn't "digest" your post in which you assume health care will become a problem.

[IrateCitizen]

28. Oooohhh... did I touch a raw nerve, Blue_Chill?

Perhaps I was incorrect in inferring that you were saying that the "good job" phenomenon is only applicable to the United States.

But there's no reason to get touchy when you either deliberately or mistakenly ignore plain points of my initial post, and I call on you to address those points.

BTW, what I am describing is not something that "may" happen -- it has been happening to more and more people over the past 5 years or so.

[Blue_Chill]

37. No you didn't touch a nerve at all

But you bitched at me and then made an fool out of yourself assuming all sorts of things I never wrote. I figured I would point it out. Looks like maybe I'm the one that touched a nerve.

[IrateCitizen]

41. No, you didn't touch a nerve... and the irony is duly noted!

I don't want anyone here to accuse me of not having a sense of humor -- and as infuriating as you can be to deal with at times, I would never accuse you of the same. :evilgrin:

[Blue_Chill]

38. No you didn't touch a nerve at all

But you bitched at me and then made an fool out of yourself assuming all sorts of things I never wrote. I figured I would point it out. Looks like maybe I'm the one that touched a nerve.

BTW, what I am describing is not something that "may" happen -- it has been happening to more and more people over the past 5 years or so.

I'm talking about hihgly paid employees. I've yet to here of 80k plus folsk getting their health care cut in large groups.

[IrateCitizen]

40. Then you're talking about a relatively small part of the population

80k a year places you solidly in the top quintile of wage-earners. There's still another 80% of the populace being affected, then -- hardly what I'd call a solid system.

[Blue_Chill]

45. I agree

It's not a solid system. point being?

[IrateCitizen]

47. Point being:

From post #18, Health care is rapidly becoming unaffordable for more and more Americans, as costs climb at more than double the rate of inflation and more employers are demanding more employee contributions. This bubble may not have burst yet, but if things continue their present course, they are bound to.

Another downside to this system is that the employee is dependent on the employer for health care -- not a trivial matter if one has a family dependent on those benefits.

The initial post, from Township75, was that the health care system here was good enough that many educated workers from other English-speaking countries (such as Australia) were emigrating to the US for work. Of course, English-speaking countries do have the greatest wealth disparities and worst health care systems when compared to the rest of the industrialized world, so this may not be a stretch....

[Blue_Chill]

51. Um perhaps you should stay in context

this thread within a thread we are in is responding to a claim in which low pay unskilled are streaming in and he claimed that high paid highly skilled workers are streaming out.

If Healthcare is bad then it will affect the lower level workers first.

[TheBigGuy]

32. Actually health care IS becoming a problem

They are going to be reducing coverage for my parnter from his workplace as a cost containment measure.

So, yeah, this IS an issue. The level of insurance coverage IS decreasing.

[sharkbait2]

42. Quality of Life

It isn't only healthcare... but quality of life. Even if many currently think it unthinkable that Americans would migrate elsewhere in search for better conditions, I think it will slowly become a growing trend if the market, specifically employment market doesn't improve.

The US has fast become an over-worked, over-taxed, over-regulated country with a shrinking middle class, practically no benefits for citizens given the rate of taxes they pay (federal, state, county, sales, luxury...etc.)

A skilled worker could easily move to Japan or Europe and potentially find an similar or slightly less paying position however with easily twice the benefits and vacation time, and much less work hours (not to mention better public transportation and equal entertainment and personal freedom.)

Also, as a sidenote regarding the general perception that everyone wants to come to America. Its true, but the trend the past 10-15 years has been for different motives than the jingoists would believe... excluding perhaps immigrants from war-torn or completely destitute nations.

I know many immigrants who come to America simply to earn dollars, many times under the table, only to return back to their country after they have accumulated seed money which could be easily twenty times the purchase value when converted back to their currency.

[StandWatie]

63. because you can actually get in here

it's harder than hell trying to immigrate to anywhere decent.

[DealsGapRider]

67. Oh, I see.

People emigrate to the United States because they can't get anywhere "decent."

[TheBigGuy]

10. Dont we periodically see threads like this...?

Where a bunch of posters chime in on how they are going to "leave the country" because its becoming too conservative or something, or if Bush wins in 2004.

This isnt the same thing, but the sentiment is sort of there.

But there is a point here. Maybe more skills-rich Americans WILL start leaving the USA for other advanced western nations that have a higher standard of living?

That is actually a good question.

[IrateCitizen]

14. It's not a "higher standard of living", but a more egalitarian society

That is the appeal of many of the countries of mainland Europe and, to a lesser degree, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Here in the US, we like to pretend that people are rewarded for working hard, and that if you work hard you'll do well. It still amazes me that people don't shatter this myth right out of the box. The reality is that a helluva lot of really rich people are rich only because they won the uteran lottery, and a helluva lot of working class people work their asses off only to tread water. It also can't be disputed that a system in which a CEO gets a raise and stock options for running a company into the ground and laying off 7,500 jobs (many of whom are undoubtedly hard-working, loyal employees) is inherently twisted.

One of the appeals of these countries to those who have the ability to move to them is that there is much more of a community ethos -- the belief that society as a whole does better when people take care of each other, and the major enabler of this is the government. While this approach is far from flawless, it does go a long way further toward alleviating the inequalities and isolation created by the mythos of the "invisible hand of the free market", while still being able to reward those who work hard and parlay their skills to get ahead a bit.

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. They why does everyone want to move here?

[Liberal Veteran]

16. There's another myth....

Everyone doesn't want to move here. Some people do, particularly those from countries that are very poor, but the idea that everyone in Great Britain or Canada or Sweden would jump at the chance to move to the US is just a damned lie.

[sushi]

74. That is correct.

.

[0007]

54. Who is everyone?

waiting......

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. 13.5 million in the 1990's

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,852492,00.html

[sushi]

73. Everyone?

Where did you get that?

[German-Lefty]

17. I left. I live in Germany now.

I get 30 days of vacation time, universal health care, the right to a roof over my head, a decent retirement system. I'm not 100% happy with the social system here, and yes it does cost something, but at least they're tring. I think Europeans tend to live better than Mericans though.

People here get pretty much free college and garanteed student loans. You show them your account is empty and they loan you a certain amount of money. There's a public transport system, so I don't even need a car.

There's no mutant genetically modified food. I eat healthier here too.

BUT, I miss America and I want it to get fixed. To vote with your feet, leave the country you don't like and find/make one you do. In Yugoslavia they had a dictatorship, but if you didn't like it you could leave, unlike in the block countries. Maybe the only way to prove these right wingers wrong(or right) is to let them have their space and you yours and let them screw it up an learn.

[DealsGapRider]

24. Not my idea of living

"I get 30 days of vacation time, universal health care, the right to a roof over my head, a decent retirement system....People here get pretty much free college and garanteed student loans. You show them your account is empty and they loan you a certain amount of money. There's a public transport system, so I don't even need a car."

Sounds like the life of a house pet. Sorry, I believe in a robust safety net to make sure the most vulnerable citizens aren't left on the street (as they often are in the US), but I don't like cradle-to-grave nannyism where the state does everything from feeding you to wiping your ass. Part of my dignity as a human being stems from the knowledge that I am not a burden on anyone and I don't need anyone to take care of me. The social welfare system you describe is too much.

[IrateCitizen]

27. Have you ever been to Germany, DealsGapRider?

I would doubt it. By and large, I found Germans to be some of the most pleasant and happy people, as a whole, that I had ever been around. And it's not because they live the life of a "house pet", but rather because they live in a much more egalitarian society that helps foster and maintain a sense of community -- as opposed to the dog-eat-dog competition and mistrust that our society breeds. Here in the US, we spend too much time wanting what others have and trying to keep others from getting what we have, rather than answering the longing for a sense of community and greater purpose that lies buried within each of us.

[TheBigGuy]

30. it IS an egalitarian society.

I know thats really tough for Americans to accept given the stereotypes about Germans and Europe, but the place does seem alot more middle-class and less poor than we are....based on my rather limited experiences with it.

[Yupster]

33. But doesn't Germany have its own problems?

I just read somewhere that its economy just sank back into official recession. And there is a move to reduce benefits, especially holidays as the country simply long-term can't afford what it currently offers.

I remember a couple of years ago the French government tried to change social security which it says it can't afford long-term, and there was a general strike. I'm not as worried about France. I figure it will be a Islamic Republic 100 years from now anyway.

PS - I went to college for a year in Austria and enjoyed it tremendously.

[TheBigGuy]

36. Well, since youve been therre..

...you probably know what we are saying about quality of life.

I will leave it to others to discuss the issue of possibly excessive benefits in Germany. But I would hate to see them sink to US levels.

[Yupster]

66. Biggest differences I noticed from Austria and USA

I lived in a provincial capital, but a smaller one - maybe 50,000 people (Bregenz).

The people were much more orderly and settled over there than over here.

Most families had lived there if not for many hundreds of years, then at least for many generations. The owner of the bookstore had it in his family for 100 years as had the owner of the carpet store (the family I lived with).

There were no minorities. I saw many Turks and Yugoslavs in Germany, and the ghettoes they lived in, but where I lived there was no such thing as a minority. I'm sure the homogenious texture of the population added much to the orderliness of the culture.

I'm sure any school superintendent in Texas would tell you that if every kid spoke english and had lived in town for five generations, the school could operate much more efficiently.

Standard of living was similar to the USA. The biggest surprise was that electricity was very expensive, and families were careful how they used it, including hot water. My showers were rationed so I didn't use too much hot water.

Overall, it was a wonderful year in the Alps. I should add it was 20 years ago -- doesn't seem so long ago, but the years are flying by.

[IrateCitizen]

39. I think a lot of it is the EU integration...

... not to mention the fact that West Germany's economy had to absorb East Germany with the re-unification, and there are still some details shaking out with that. The EU Constitution does not allow any member to run a budget deficit of more than 3% of GDP for, I believe, 3 consecutive quarters -- as an effort to control monetary policy. Germany and France are trying to circumvent this, in order to prevent making sizable cuts in social services.

I've also read about some of the problems with the German system, one in particular being the generous unemployment benefits sometimes being more than people could make working, thus providing a disincentive to work. But while the German system (like any) is not perfect, I consider it to be pretty damned good based on my observations while visiting there.

[Kellanved]

50. Yes. that is part of the problem

Germany is in trouble at the moment (although things are beginning to look better); benefits are cut and unemployment is very high; the social systems are strained; the deficit is bound to be higher than the 3% limit; the Universities are underfunded; many systems (schools among them) are in dire need of reforms. There is a huge disparity between West and East-Germany (most "old" states are doing OK; the "new" states are in real trouble).


The most accepted reasons for the current situation are the rushed reunification and the too-high entry into the Euro (the DM was integrated into the Euro about 20% over value)

While it is true that social mobility isn't as bad as the school system (three tied) suggest (there are ways to study despite not finishing a "Gymnasium" or one can finish in an afternoon-school), it was found lacking when compared to other countries (the Scandinavian for example).

[DealsGapRider]

43. Yeah

Lived in Landstuhl and Stuttgart for 4 years total.

[IrateCitizen]

52. And you still think that living there is like being a "household pet"?

I'll grant you that there are many restrictions in Germany that can prove to be frustrating -- one off the top of my head is building restrictions and zoning laws. But to compare living there to being a household pet just seems to me to be a bit harsh.

I found the cleanliness of German cities to be quite refreshing, along with the relative lack of extreme poverty. Perhaps one of the best things about it was the sense of community that was still there -- unlike the suburban enclaves we all live in here in the US.

But, hey -- different strokes for different folks, I guess.... :shrug:

[DealsGapRider]

56. Look, I love Germany

And of course, the country is beyond charming. Very clean, good transportation system, good people...

I just have a problem with the government providing so much for its citizens that they don't have to do much for themselves. I prefer the model in which what you have is determined by and large by how hard you work. To me there's something that robs from the human spirit when you just hand everything to people on a silver platter. It's the whole security vs. freedom argument. At the risk of sounding like a Repug, I prefer greater freedom (as long as I know that there's a safety net for the people who simply can't cut it). Provide the basic necessities, which we don't do enough of here, but 30 days of paid vacation and whatnot is too much. It's nannyism.

[IrateCitizen]

58. I'm probably the wrong person to talk to on "vacation time"!

Considering the fact that I'm going back to school as we speak to become a teacher -- 2 months off in the summer ain't bad, not to mention the breaks during the year! But I wouldn't be telling the whole truth in saying that it was simply that, as much as it is a desire to get involved in a field that allows me to make a real contribution to society. But, I digress....

But a lot of it comes down to a quality-of-life issue, as well. Here in the US, we have become a country obsessed with "more" -- more stuff, more productivity, more profits, etc. But in this neverending quest for "more", we lose a lot of happiness.

For example, why is it that worker productivity over the past 40 years has increased significantly, yet workers are put in longer and longer hours each year? Hell, we've even passed workaholic Japan in the average number of hours put in each week. Along with all of this, one in four Americans in clinically depressed. Not much of a quality of life, IMHO.

While there are certainly many problems with the German social services system, I would NOT say that vacation is necessarily one of them. In fact, in the modern world, I would argue more that it is a necessity -- to allow people to spend more time with their families, more time being able to travel, more time doing things other than WORKING -- because we shouldn't have to live in a world in which our work is the overriding definition of who we are.

[bloom]

59. 30 days of paid vacation and whatnot...

I get that at the (US) company where I work - I think it's great.

Are you self-employed? Why wouldn't someone want that?

[DealsGapRider]

62. I would want it.

But I wouldn't want the government to mandate it.

Shit, in France they have a 35 hour work week that is enforced by the fucking labor police. That's ridiculous. I don't like the idea of the government telling me that I can't bust my ass in my small business and work 80 hours a week. Labor standards are fine, but there is a point where it becomes ridiculous.

When I lived in Germany, I used to see road crews working, right. One guy would be working, three guys would be standing around watching him work. And they would stop every other hour for like a half hour break, complete with bread and beer. The whole idea of German efficiency is a myth. Everyone I knew in management used to bitch about how it was impossible to fire someone because of the labor laws. It was better to keep a lousy, piece of shit worker than go through the trouble of firing him. That's bullshit. The government should not create that kind of inefficiency in companies, and that's a big reason the Germans are going through their recession.

[German-Lefty]

70. They don't mandate my 30 days vacation, I earned it

It was part of the going contract at the time. They could have given me less. Personally I'd consider taking less money to get a bit more vacation time. I get paid well enough, and I'd like to get out and see Europe as much as possible. The point is that people here demand vacation time, and wouldn't trade it in for cash at a proportional rate. Employers also know people need vacation time for thier sanity, which makes them more productive when they're workign.

Shit, in France they have a 35 hour work week that is enforced by the fucking labor police. That's ridiculous. ....
They don't say you can't as an employee work more than 35 hours many managers and contractors do. They don't allow your employer to make you work more than 35 a week. I know a guy there that's working well over 40 there. He's getting paid a crap load!

When I lived in Germany, I used to see road crews working, right. One guy would be working, three guys would be standing around watching him work.
I've seen those guys in Texas too, and they didn't look like Germans:-). I'm sure you've seen 7 highway workers standing around and only one of em is really working. They only brought one shovel!

Everyone I knew in management used to bitch about how it was impossible to fire someone because of the labor laws. It was better to keep a lousy, piece of shit worker than go through the trouble of firing him.
You can fire someone in the first 6 months (Probezeit) with no strings attached, after that you have to give X months warning based on how long he's worked for you. So if you fire some guy that's been with you several years you may have to give him a several months to find a new job. If you really don't want him around you still have to pay him, but you can send him home.

Lookead-Martin locked up an entire building in the US. People came to work on Monday and were told they couldn't even go in to get their stuff, then some of them got phone calls to be transfered and some got nothing.

I know the German model leads to some inflexiblity and costs jobs, but it's basicaly making your employer save for you if he chooses to fire you. He does owe you something, but of coarse it will come out of your check.

[TheBigGuy]

29. I disagree, I think its great.

Having been to Germany a number of times I can verify that the place does have a better standard of living than the USA. They do have good food, too, and its fairly cheap.

In some ways their society could be a model for ours. Especially their approach to college and apprenticships. Germany, in some ways, has become actually more meritocratic and egalitarian than the USA

[IrateCitizen]

35. Not to mention the cleanliness and lack of destitute poverty!

I found Germany, Holland and Switzerland to be the cleanest countries I have ever had the pleasure of visiting. And one thing about Germany is the seeming lack of destitute poverty.

You also missed another great thing about Germany -- the fact that it is the birthplace of the "Green movement". Just about any innovative environmental policy you can think of (i.e. recycling) had its start in Germany. They are VERY environmentally conscious over there.

As for "meritocracy" and "egalitarian" -- I would argue that just about the only time that these words could truly apply to the US were in the years following WWII. And even that example could be questioned, considering the lack of opportunity to women and blacks. If anything, we've been on the path of reverting back to a plutocracy, as we were in the Gilded Age -- that utopia that so many conservative libertarians dream of!

[DealsGapRider]

48. Oh yeah, their education system is so egalitarian.

They divide their kids into the not-so-smart (Realschule) and the smart (Gymnasium) when they're scarcely past pubescence and their lot in life is cast from that point on. For someone like me who did very poorly in high school and then made excellent grades in college, I would have been stuck being a welder or something. Sorry, this country is far more egalitarian because it's the system that allows the most movement up or down the social hierarchy based on ability. In this country can arrive off the boat with the shirt on your back and in one generation your kids can be graduating from medical school. Happens all the time. And it doesn't happen much in places like Germany, where your social position is almost always what your father's social position was.

[TheBigGuy]

49. Actually their colleges are not as class baseds

You dont have this division into elite ivy league and expensive private schools and underfunded public colleges.

Also, what you are describing happens in the USA too, with tracking & moving people into vocational education.

And I disagree w. you about social position....i personally know of people whos parents where peasants and inkeepers who are now middle management and tecnical professionals.

[IrateCitizen]

53. That's diminishing rapidly here

Sorry, this country is far more egalitarian because it's the system that allows the most movement up or down the social hierarchy based on ability. In this country can arrive off the boat with the shirt on your back and in one generation your kids can be graduating from medical school. Happens all the time.

Not nearly as much anymore. While this may have been largely true during the post WWII period, the pendulum has swung back visciously. While state schools have remained somewhat affordable, the top ten learning institutions in the US are all private (except for one). Given the fact that tuition to private universities has increased at near double-digit rates over the past 10 years or so, along with cuts in programs like Pell Grants, this has priced out an increasing number of students from attending these institutions. And if they do attend, they are buried under a mountain of debt for the unforeseeable future, some emerging with $70K, $80K, even $100K in student loans.

But none of this affects the rich any worse, because they are not only able to pay for it, but to skate in on legacy.... While our educational system is not wholly class-based, it is rapidly returning to that status, as it largely was prior to WWII.

[German-Lefty]

69. German Education system

They divide kids up into about three levels (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium), the middle level winds up being non-college educated proffesionals like banker tellers, insurance case workers, secretaries ect. It did kind of bother me that they divide up kids so soon, but you can go to the next school after you finish the one you're in. I knew people that did this.

Compare this to the US. The impression I got when I was in school there was you either go to college, or you're a looser. Yes there was welding and autoshop in school, but most of the emphasis was on getting the upper 30% to college, getting the next 50% to read enough to pass the state tests for graduation, and just forget about the bottom 20% that drop out.

I personally got a great education in the US schools, but I was in the upper class. I got the feeling everyone else got out and then had to bumb around town trying to find a job in food services, that a high school diploma means "this man probably can read and do some arithmatic."

Compare this to a German where you've spent a couple years as an apprentice and are now a master chief, or a insurance case worker that's now got 2 years on the job experience as well as 2 years coarse work and a certification which allows you to switch employers.

My theory is that the elite run the politics in the US and they think about the people that went to college, because they and all thier friends went to college. America shouldn't turn into a class based society where people like Bush with help from Dad and can ascend to the highest office on almost no merit.

[German-Lefty]

72. Look I know where you're coming from

"I don't like cradle-to-grave nannyism where the state does everything from feeding you to wiping your ass. Part of my dignity as a human being stems from the knowledge that I am not a burden on anyone and I don't need anyone to take care of me."

There are definately problems caused by tring to do to much with your social system. Germany has room for improvement and I think they need to patch all the cracks they still have. If you loose your job here they pay you 70% of your old salary, it is expensive. Mostly they need to get rid of some of thier beurocracy; that's for sure.

Consider this though: if people are like you and they want to work, aren't they going to do it? It's a question of human nature.

Consider this: define some decent standard of living. Once technology allows an minority of the population to provide enough resources to provide this for everyone, does everyone work? If so how can they be motivated to? This is the big delima we face, new technologies allow us to ignore it in the shore term.

"working jobs we hate to buy shit we don't need" -- Fight Club

[ArkDem]

57. Yes, Germany has always been know for it's healthy foods

!!

[Yupster]

64. Bratwursts and Blutwursts

I'll take the lite Blutwurst bitte.

My favorite was the kasespattzler -- probably not too low fat there either, but it was good.

[bloom]

25. It's probably a natural thing -that people are drawn to whatever countries

are doing the best by their citizens. And that people who can offer the most to another country are most likely to be accepted.

If the US starts to really lose it in regards to the economy and the debt and all - there probably WILL be more people who leave if they can find better situations elsewhere. Of course that makes it all the worse on the middle class here - and all the more reason to vote for sane elected officials.
________



http://www.silverserver.co.at/nr/KIOSK/BauArt/04/noseda/engl/noseda2.htm

Central European countries are suitable countries for immigration

Until the 1980s, the phenomenon of immigration was ignored or fervently denied in Central Europe by overlooking it away and using the euphemism "Guest Worker". Even when it could no longer be ignored that many foreign workers and their families had permanently settled in their "Host" countries the politicians did not react. It is only since the end of the 1980s that, due to the almost uncontrollable immigration from Eastern Europe and from the so-called third world countries, the question of co-existence has become a political issue. In contrast to the foreign workers in the post war years the people now involved had not been summoned because workers were needed. They came uninvited as refugees or, due to sheer poverty, they decided to leave their native country in order to start a new life in affluent Central Europe.

The fact of the multicultural composition of our Central European cities became more and more obvious. In the 1980s this started a wide ranging discussion about living together with the new arrivals. The discussion ranged across a spectrum of various social concepts including segregation, assimilation and integration. Segregation stood for indepen-dence through demarcation and exclusion; assimi-lation for a general acceptance of the majority cultural values; integration for political and legal par-ticipation in the structures of the majority society.

One particular term and the outline of a new concept have established themselves at the centre of this debate: the multicultural society.2 This is regarded as a response to the head-in-the-sand policy of the political right wing which refuses to accept the fact of immigration and fantasises about a homogeneous German, Austrian, French etc. nation. An extract from the party programme of the West German "Republicans" from 1987 illustrates this: "The Federal Republic of Germany is not a suitable country for immigration. It must remain a country for Germans. Foreigners are guests. As in Switzerland, this status should exclude unrestricted work contracts and allocation of permits, permanent residency, bringing in families and claims on social benefits."3 < . . . >

[Maple]

31. I'd just like to point out

that illegal immigration, and massive amounts of immigration, are a problem in all western countries, not just the US.

[TheBigGuy]

34. Actually that is true in Europe.

From what Ive read it is a casue of social tension over there. In the US you see that tension expressed regionally, in things like that anti-immigrant ballot initiative in California.

[sexybomber]

44. Hey, if you want to leave, leave, but...

There is still hope for America. In the face of massive, massive public outrage and anger, in the face of overwhelming demand for the services you spek of, something would have to give. Something would change.

But you can't have the required radical political and social change if the angriest people among us are going to leave the country. Trust me, I know how you feel. When the war in Iraq started, I had a transfer application to the University of Toronto on my desk, filled out, and signed. But I never sent it in, and you know why?

I thought it would be that much more satisfying if I had a hand in the changes that brought the downfall and marginalization of these bullshit ideas we've had shoved down our throats. It's more satisfying to fight and win than give up right before the turning of the tide.

So that's why you might consider staying.

[stickdog]

46. I have not yet begun to fight!

Not giving up yet.

[MassDem4Life]

55. what country are you living in?

the country I live in had a waiting list ten years long with people trying to legally emigrate here.

and a further 2-3 million people streaming across our borders illegally every year.

Name one other country in the world that so many people want to come to to live.

Just one?????

If you hate America that much leave.
I am sure that France would love to have you. And you would probably enjoy it more than here

[IrateCitizen]

60. Why that's a nice little ad hominem!

I am sure that France would love to have you. And you would probably enjoy it more than here

Well, I visited France this summer, and I DID enjoy it more than if I would have stayed here! :evilgrin:

[aneerkoinos]

68. Couple numbers from EU15:

Illegal immigration estimated about 3 million/year

Asylum aplications about 400 000/year

Nymbers on migration between EU and US proved to be bit difficult to find, but it may be interesting to note that nowadays more people are moving into Ireland from US than vice versa.

Sorry to crash your myth.

[sushi]

77. I also read recently

that New Zealand had quite a few inquiries from Americans!

[MassDem4Life]

78. no myth at all

I am talking about any single country's immigration

You are talking about an economic coalition of what is it 22 countries now?

And Ireland - Us stat, is the best you can come up with?

Enjoy Paris

[aneerkoinos]

79. Well

It must have escaped you that I was spesifically talking about EU15 as I wrote, not about EU22 (thanks for showing your ignorance :D) or EU25 that will come about next year. Also EU is much more that "economic coalition", e.g. it has common borders and movement is free inside those borders. EU15 and US are close enough in size to make meaningfull comparisons even though EU15 has more populations.

To compare with any single country, as you insist, the meaningfull way to do that would be immigration comparisons related to population. Such comparisons with e.g. Spain, Italy and Greece would leave US far behind in illegal immigration.

And yes, Ireland-US stat was best I came up with a hasty google, and it would be interesting to see other stats about immigration between EU and US, Australia and US, Canada and US etc. Maybe you have something constructive to offer?

[bitchkitty]

71. Then move -

it doesn't sound as if you've got the stomach for this fight anyway.