Buying of the President 2004 Report on Kerry: Center for Public Integrity

[seventhson]

This guy Kerry may be worth as much as EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS??????

Is HE one of us? The richest man in Congress? The richest Senator?

The guy who did not need Skull and Bones to get ahead? Did not need Yale, probably? Yet married a wealthy Skull widow and his top political advisor is Skull too?

His ties to his cousin's Billion dollar Vietnam real estate deal (where Kerry probably sold out the POW's and MIA's) is documented in this report from tyhe left wing site.

It is amust read for all of us. Sure it has some good with the bad. But it is only the tip of the iceberg on the bad and it can lead us to much more as all the details are there for those who care to be educated.

Here is the must read report:

http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=4

[JI7]

1. sure, why not ?

he has been senator of one of the most liberal states in the country for years. if he was so bad they would have got rid of him long time ago.

[Renew Deal]

3. He eats Cheese steaks daintily

j/k

[JI7]

6. and speaks french while getting haircut

from cristophe.

[Jim Sagle]

7. With Swiss Cheese, yet!

[bearfartinthewoods]

239. SWISS CHEESE????

SWISS cheese??? like from switzerland? aren't they, like, neutral or something? WOW, that obviously means he's weak on national defense and if he's elected we will all turn into neutral swiss cheese eating surrender monkeys and die.


typed with tongue planted firmly in cheeck and feeling that Kerry deserves a little kick for trying to pervert the traditional philly steak with whiz....:grin:

[seventhson]

14. Yah. And if Bush were so bad

Americans would never have elected him president.

Oops, I forgot. We didn't.

By your logic money does not buy power and people cannot be fooled by fakery of the elites who model themselves after the Kennedys.

Dude, its a facade.

[JI7]

26. so those fooled include barney frank, ted kennedy

and every other person who does not come out against him considering what you accuse him of. well, i guess he is doing a very good job of it. did you ever try to get anyone to challenge him in the senate or try to challenge him yourself if you live there ?

[Monte Carlo]

29. Do you know how patronizing you are?

He has been the Senator from my state for the past 20 years, and there is nothing he has done or said to make me think he is a phony. He has worked with the Kennedy family for years. I have listened to the local Murdoch toadies like Howie Carr and Jay Severn go on and on about the evil Mr. Kerry, and none of it has ever sticked or held up under scrutiny. So please, peddle your paranoia elsewhere.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. YOu sound disappointed that they said something good about him

[seventhson]

15. I'm disappointed they did not dig deeper and expose his coverups

for Bush et al. They DID however, scracth the surface.

[sangh0]

38. And I'm disappointed

at your repeated claims of a coverup without offering the details.

[blm]

42. YOU dug deep for 30 years and didn't find squat!

So now you only point to Bush crimes and attach them to Kerry through his college S&B association.

Geez, seventhson, anyone can paint Al Gore as head of the BFEE using YOUR standards.

[seventhson]

44. Not true. Kerry is a Member of the ORDER TODAY!!!

Not just thrity years ago. It is a lifelong membership and you KNOW that.

If he renounced his membership TODAY, I would be pleased and feel vindicated.

That is why last week he REFUSED to discuss this secret membership on Meet the Press.

You KNOW that BLM. Why obfuscate?

He is STILL a mamber and Skull is STILL a Criminal Enterprise IMHO.

[blm]

58. YOU dug for 30 years on Bush and Nazis

and never found any links to Kerry. When you thought Kerry was going to oppose Gore as the Dem nominee, then he became Satan to you and you found out HERE AT DU that Kerry was S&B in college. Now you attach Kerry to all crimes committed by the BFEE.

Sheesh, Kerry's mother's home was BURNED by the Naziz and Kerry's grandfather was Jewish, and YOU want to attach him to the Nazi-loving Bush family.

Dean's family was closer to the Bushes than Kerry. Wall St. financiers who were so close that their grandmothers stood up at each other's wedding.

[sangh0]

63. Kerry has done nothing wrong

which is why you can only point to people he knows, and then go with the McCarthy-esque "guilt by association"

[hang a left]

141. I want to be open minded on this but this

is what I am reading in a book called Rule By Secrecy by Jim Marrs

" A more recent example fo member's fierce loyalty was shown in the 1980's scandal of President Bush's connection with the criminal activity in the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) As the bank's illegal activities came to light--involving many prominent names--attempts were made by the Bush administration to block or blunt any meaningful investigation. Finally a formal investigation of the BCCI was launched by the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations headed by Massachusetts senator John Keery. Kerry was the chairman of the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee, which had received significant BCCI contributions, and he was also a member of Skull and Bones. The Kerry-led investigation foundered. Jack Blum, a special counsel to Kerry's subcommittee, stated, "I proposed a serious investigation of BCCI and was brushed aside....A high level cover-up of everything concerning BCCI was set into place after Customs stumbled across their money-laundering operation in Miami, and it's still in place."

[blm]

152. Kerry kept the heat ON...

even seeking indictments from NY state attorney when US Atty. refused. The Senate leaders kept Kerry OFF the Senate Committee on BCCI after his extensive investigations because Kerry was considered TOO hot.

BTW...Robert Parry knows more about that time than any other journalist and he NEVER found Kerry to be covering for Bush at ALL. Even Nader was working with Kerry to keep the pressure on Congress when they wanted to fold.

THE NORTH NOTEBOOKS
From Washington by Tim Wheeler
EXCERPT...

In Washington, at the request of Irangate special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, a new grand jury has been empanelled to consider evidence that Bush and President Reagan were very much "in the loop" on the criminal enterprise.
Also in Washington, Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), chair of the Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Terrorism and Narcotics, announced May 18 that he is examining thousands of newly released photocopied pages from Lt. Col. Oliver North's notebooks, which expose White House lying on the Noriega case. The National Security Archive and Ralph Nader's Public Citizen released thousands of the same pages at two press conferences on May 8 and May 18.

Senator Kerry declared, "The North notebooks confirm that high-level U.S. officials, including officials at the CIA and the NSC , knew about General Noriega's drug trafficking and corruption in 1986, kept him on the U.S. payroll and discussed helping him clean up his image in return for his help for the contras."

"The information was important because throughout 1988, while my hearings were taking place, the White House was denying that it had known about Noriega's drug trafficking." Kerry added, "There is something fundamental that is violated in a democracy when the White House can classify documents as 'Codeword Top Secret' in order to suppress politically damaging information in an election year." Kerry suggested that Walsh examine sworn testimony of former Assistant Secretary of State Elliot Abrams and Donald Gregg to determine if they committed perjury. Kerry said the documents also raise questions of whether NSC and intelligence officers engaged in domestic surveillance in violation of the law.

The North notebooks provide a wealth of new evidence. One page, released for the first time May 8, lists a "mtg w V.P." at 12 noon, August 6, 1986. North began that day by meeting with Israeli terrorist expert, Amiram Nir. According to North's notes, he then went to an extraordinary meeting at the White House with members of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. According to his later testimony, North "lied, lied, lied" to the lawmakers about the Iran-contra conspiracy. North then met with several other covert agents, including Gregg. Finally he met with Vice President Bush. Did the Vice President discuss with North his lies to an official oversight committee of the U.S. Congress?

Asked about this notation in North's notebook, White House Press Secretary Marlin Fitzwater declared, "The vice president's role in the Iran-contra affair was completely examined in the congressional inquiry and we have nothing to add."

CONTINUED...
http://www.skepticfiles.org/socialis/north.htm

[hang a left]

155. thank you and I will continue

reading. I want to not believe it, I was really hoping we had a savior in Kerry. I will continue my investigation. Any Skull and Boners make me nervous, as do members of the CFR and Trilateral Commission.

[sangh0]

158. And thank you for keeping an open mind

To emphasize something blm said, it wasn't Kerry that blew the investigation. Please note that your quote (repeated below) doesn't claim that Kerry was part of the cover-up. In fact, since it was the subcommittee's lawyer, hired by Kerry, that complained about a cover-up, it would seem unlikely that Kerry was part of the cover-up. After all, if Kerry wanted a cover-up, then why would he hire a lawyer that was a bulldog?

Jack Blum, a special counsel to Kerry's subcommittee, stated, "I proposed a serious investigation of BCCI and was brushed aside....A high level cover-up of everything concerning BCCI was set into place after Customs stumbled across their money-laundering operation in Miami, and it's still in place."

[blm]

163. Another point

is that Kerry became very UNpopular in DC, even in his own party. He instigated almost every major investigation of the 80s, and was joined by Joe Moakley in blowing the whistle on the illegal war in Central America. This drew the wrath of the DC powerbrokers in both parties, their complicit press, and the CIA and FBI who were involved in these actions. Kerry is lucky to be alive.

[blondeatlast]

49. Explain.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

4. Me thinks you need a little skull.

If you know what I mean.

[onehandle]

5. Wow! He sounds bad...

Obviously the richer you are, the worse you are.

Bush is worth a FRACTION of what Kerry is, so he get my vote.

Ha, ha...DUers can be a riot!

[seventhson]

16. Never said that

But the fact is that the Bush empire probably is far wealthier than Kerry's family. Carlisle and Halliburton control Billions in assets.

So your point is off the mark.

No - my primary beef is with Kerry being a fraudulent liar and cheat with respect to his medals thing and his reenactments of his heroism which he tries to pass off as super 8 films shot in real battle (how insane and political is that). AND the fact that his riches make him part of skull and bones most elite.

I'ds prefer someone a little closewr to the common man. Kucinich's speech about staying in a car in the inner city meant as LOT to me.

If you have never been there you have no compassion and no vision for how to change it.

How much money ddo the fucking rich NEED?

AND the biggest injustice in America is the facvt that the welathy do not pay social security on their upper tier income. Every poor shmick amongst us gives up more than 15% of our earnings just for social securtity and medicaid.medicare alone, The wealthy get away with paying as little as less than 1% because of laws designed to protect the rich from paying their fair share.

I say make everyone pay the same percentage and give everyone better benefits in old age AND prescription medical care.

But NO ONE wants to raise this issue.

It IS a war on the poor by the rich. But there are SOME rich who actually help us (Geroge Soros or even Ted Turner come to mind). But Kerry is NOT one of them.

[sangh0]

40. Keep repeating the lie

FOX is proud of you!!

my primary beef is with Kerry being a fraudulent liar and cheat with respect to his medals thing and his reenactments of his heroism which he tries to pass off as super 8 films shot in real battle (how insane and political is that). AND the fact that his riches make him part of skull and bones most elite.

Not one fact, which explains the lack of citations or links.

AND the biggest injustice in America is the facvt that the welathy do not pay social security on their upper tier income

And obviously, this is Kerry's fault. You know, it's that SnB thing again.

[KoKo]

8. Seventhson......I know how you feel about Kerry........so I hesitated to

post. But, I think my problem with Kerry is that I don't feel I know what's inside him......what he REALLY feels about anything. And, his performance in all the debates makes me think he finds it a "bore" to stand with "other Democrats" and have to answer questions which are beneath him. He has the most "patrician" credentials of anyone including Howard Dean of all the Candidates......and I can't get beyond his aloofness. I don't see a "fire in the belly to be President from him."

I find him.......odd.

[Forkboy]

9. For those who care to be educated?

Like you?

[seventhson]

17. Did You know Robert Mueller and John Kerry were Hockey Teammates

at their prep school, St. Paul's Episcopal School?

THEY not opnly became well educated, but they also were sociopolitically and sociologically integrated.

I noticed your logo.

I know that political education is spurned by most Americans (usually not here at DU, though, where folks I think enjoy learning from each other - though I guess the flame wars don't educate much)

But I thought folks who want to really KNOW Kerry's financial background etc might appreciate this link.

I guess you probably don't care?

[WilliamPitt]

69. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

"Hey Bob"

"Yeah John"

"I know we're only teenagers, but I was wondering..."

"What, John?"

"In twenty years, after I've gone to Yale and served in a war and gotten medals and denounced the war before Congress and made Nixon's enemies list, I was wondering if you'd help me start an evil enterprise to spread evil. Whadaya say?"

"Sure John. Pass me my skates."

[Forkboy]

176. You gotta be kidding me

LMFAO

You're special seventhson...in a shortbus kind of way.

[Jim Sagle]

10. CPI is one of those "progressive" institutes that hits Dems

twice as hard as they hit Pugs, then they wonder WTF happened to the public interest.

Earth to CPI: "Check out the Bush/Cheney/Rove/Carlyle money machine, then get back to me. Dumbfucks."

[seventhson]

11. Dems need to be hit hard.

They failed us in 200-2002.

Maybe now Dean will NOT fail us.

KERRY failed us.

Why?

I think it is because he is a superrich patricvian from the skull and bones mold.

So make fun of me. YOU vote for him. I think he's a creep.

[Mairead]

24. Kerry has a long, if also boring and conventional, liberal history

Dean does not.

That is a significant difference, I think.

[WilliamPitt]

70. "boring and conventional"????????????????????????

You mean defending the environment?

Defending women's right to choose?

THAT kind of boring?

I'll take that boring any day of the week.

Damn.

[Mairead]

236. Yeah. He voted liberal on virtually every issue, but

broke no new ground. Whence my characterisation.

[blondeatlast]

51. Fine. Vote for someone else then.

If you can't stand the heat, though, don't post flamebait.

[FlashHarry]

12. Jesus Christ. Give it a rest.

Not all rich people are evil.

Talk about class warfare.

[seventhson]

13. Ahh, such a Rovian/Liebrmanian refrain

It IS class warfare you ....!!!!

The exploitation of the poor and working classes by the wealthy class is the biggest threat to humanity ever.

The military industrial complex IS the rich and the powerful.

The WEALTHY control politics in this country.

I am not going to hide this light under a blanket of irrational fear of uttering the painfully obvious.

The tax cuts are for the RICH. The patriot act is for the RICH. The WARS are for the RICH.

YES, not ALL wealthy people are evil. I agree. But there is a war being fought by the rivh against everyone else here on the planet. I work in the inner city and I see the suffering of the poor every single day all day long. The suffering is immense.

YOU may spout platitudes and "Give it a Rest" to justify the horrors of poverty, alienation, and suffering caused by the ruling class in this country. Kerry is a MEMBER of that ruling class. In politics 101 they are known as the "Power Elites"/ They go to the same prep schools, the same colleges, belong to the same fraternities, they socialize together, they intermarry and they RULE the rest of us.

You can paternalistically dismiss this issue. But it is the (Rethuglican) Elephant in the Living Room. Those who ignore it or deny it serve no one any damn good.

[Mairead]

23. I think you're suffering from false consciousness

It's not 'the wealthy' we have to worry about -- there are many wealthy people who are on the side of good.

The ones we need to worry about are the elites, and especially the wealthy elites. The ones who think their money and privilege entitles them to rule over us, and exploit us for their benefit.

[seventhson]

32. I agree

That is why the elitist associations Kerry STILL maintians with the Bushes disturbs me.

[blondeatlast]

52. You need to fight corporate think, not individuals.

I'm no Kerry fan, but single issues just don't cut it for me.

Who's your current pick?

Why?

[Old and In the Way]

207. Are pickles and relish part of your definition of the military

industrial complex? God what a lame thread to start.

To recap, Kerry's evil because:

(1) he was in a college frat.
(2) he might have thrown someone else's medals over a fence.
(3) his wife is really, really rich
(4) Seventhson says he's evil.

Wonder how the guy you profess to support would characterize this kind of smear of a fellow Democrat?

[matcom]

18. so, if YOU were to lets say win $10 MILLION in the Lottery.....

which group would you give it all to to maintain your "integrity"?

i mean you just CANNOT be wealthy and a good Democrat right?

:eyes:

[seventhson]

20. Jesus Matcom

10 Million is NOT 800 Million.

at 1% interest (which some banks are giving( that is a gross income of 100,000 per year and after taxes maybe half of that ($50,000).

Kerry's INCOME, according to this report, is 15 Million dollars a year!!!

Now, as far as charity or benevolent works I would take care of my homeless relatives first (or those who live in dangerous housing). I would probably invest some in environmentally and socially responsible enterpirses such as solar or new technologies.

I would donate to soup kitchens and homeless shelters. BUT I would USE the money for socially responsible ends - i.e. education and organization of the people against corporate fascists.

My plan would be to use such funds for the good of humanity as well as take care of my responsibilities to my family.

But I almost NEVER play the lottery so this is pure bullshit baiting, anyway. matcom. And you know it.

[matcom]

25. hows it feel for a change?

:)

[blondeatlast]

53. Touche'!

Thanks, matcom--we all needed that!

[sendero]

19. good grief

Why should I assume that Kerry's wealth make him a bad person or a man who cannot understand what it is like at the bottom?

I could turn that around - since Kerry's so rich, he certainly isn't serving in Congress, not an easy job by any standard, for the money. In fact, you could easily ask yourself "why would anyone with that much money bother with that sort of difficult job?"

I'm a Dean supporter, and Kerry has annoyed me greatly with some of the pissy comments he's made lately - but I could care less if he is wealthy. I'm going to stick to the issues, the politics, and leave the innuendo out of it.

[seventhson]

22. Just plain Grief, Deseo

The reason I posted the link is NOT to simply complain about his wealth.

I posted the comments to be in complianc with the posting rules -- though I think I make a valid point.

I posted the links so that people could see that Kerry is one of the landed gentry, to elite of the elite of the elites: the richest of the rich.

I think it matters.

I suppose many on this board do not suffer poverty or live in the inner city.

This board, for all its merits, is pretty white bread and bourgeois.

Wealth does NOT automatically make one cruel, heartless or even inhuman (although some philosophies would argue that such surfeit wealth is sinful - Christianity for example definitley teaches that unnecessary excess wealth is a sin).

My point was to allow the folks here to follow the links of his wealth and find out where it comes from. What he owns. HOWQ he spendds his money. How he invests it. WHERE his wealth comes from.

Does he invest in socially responsible companies. Are they devoted to improving humanity? Is he just investing for the profit.

Well. The financial statemements are all there from past campaigns and disclosures. You can look for yourself. We can thereby maje educated decisions about how he uses his welth.

His waelth is TO ME an indicator of his status with the Bushes in a corrupt elite. That is what it means to ME.

But Americans, despite the fact that it is really a fantasy and a BIG lie, believe in the American dream: that one day you too will have great wealth if you are just really smart and work hard enough.

Wew calue individual wealth and property rights OVER our community's well being and collective economic security. We pray for the day WE will be rich and NEVER want to admit it is a pipe dream for 99% of Americans. And that this dream keeps us from having global health care and medicine and education and housing and employment.

That is why I made my comments, That is what I believe.

I work with the homeless in the inner city and the wretchedest treated people on earth. I see suffering every day that one one hundredth of Kerry's wealth could eliminate completely. I don't see Kerry volunteering at any soup kitchens as I have done.

Please. this righteous indignation at my being horrified by the fact that Kerry is almost a BILLIONAIRE and many of us DUers are falling all over sucking up to him as he sucks up to Bush is really really...

typical of the DLC and Lieberman types.

(Remember how Lieberman criticized Al Gore for the "class war" thing? Yalking point alert.)

[ShaneGR]

21. Didn't realize wealthy Democrats weren't worthy

I had no idea being a good businessman made people ineligible for higher office.

[seventhson]

28. Like Bush - there is nothing of a good business man in him

He was born rich and married into more riches.

You all are spinning the reason for the post.

Follow the links and see what he does with his money: THAT is what will qualify or disqualify Kerry.

I judge him by his actions and deeds and words.

I persoanlly think he is a liar, a fraud and a cheat.(Mostly due to the medals fiasco and the Vietnam Vets he betrayed in many ways - and his close personal associations with the Bushes as you know)

The fact that he is a stinking rich liar, fraud and cheat just makes him MORE despicable in my book.

But the point is to make his financial data accessible to Y'all.

If you choose not to read where his wealth comes from or what he does with it, that just makes you less informed.

I prefer informed voters (and debaters here at DU) and thus I shared the site. Okay? Jeez.

[Monte Carlo]

31. You are not interested in debate; you already have your answers.

So don't go on about how you are trying to create a thriving, constructive discussion about John Kerry, because you are not. If the Democrats didn't let people from rich and priviledged families into their party, FDR wouldn't have been President. JFK wouldn't have been President. I have read plenty of background of John Kerry, and I don't think he is any of the things you say.

[seventhson]

34. Not at all. I want the debate on this issue. Besides, you spin:

I never said the wealthy should not be democrats.

I posted the link so that we can see what he invests in etc. I have said this repeatedly.

Kerry is one of the wealthy elites, He was suckled by the Yale-Skull system and weaned onto power. THAT group of the wealthy is totally corrupt and incorrigible. They cannot be trusted IMHO.

YOU can trust them. BUT you do so to ALL of our peril.

[ShaneGR]

39. "You all are spinning the reason for the post."

The reason for this post is you have a favorite candidate and you choose to bash all of the other ones with whatever negative information you can find.

Spin that.

And I'm not even a Kerry supporter.

[seventhson]

43. Not true either

I usually only bash Kerry with the Truth about him.

I have said a few unkind things about Liebermam but like him better than Kerry and think he would be a better president.

I PREFER Kucinich's policy proposals to Dean but thiunkl Dean is the most viable candidte.

My favorite desire for 2004 is STILL Gore.

If you can point to any post that I slammed anyone but Kerry or maybe Lieberman, then posy a link. There are none.

[Monte Carlo]

27. Is there anything you won't believe about Kerry?

I have watched you post thread after thread of these paranoid articles and gross leaps to conclusions. You have produced nothing that either helps your case or doesn't make you seem like a raving loon bent on a narrow purpose.

If you expect to be taken seriously, you must stop with this useless, fanciful speculation.

[seventhson]

30. Not true

I post very few threads.

I do respond to the attacks and slings of the rabid Kerryites here.

But I will make a pledge here and now.

If Kerry is the nominee I will shut my trap about this stuff unless a good viable third party candidate emerges (not Nader)

And actually there is nothing I would nt beieve about ANy Bonesman if there was some evidence to support it. I put NOTHING past this group of degenerates.

I also work with sexuaklly abused children. You CANNOT rule out such conduct by anyone: priest or politicians. People are capable of almost anything. The Bonesmen are skilled at political assassination, coups, and murder. They know it is a life and death game because if they are exposed they would be held for capital crimes a la Nuremburg.

THAT is why I would put NOTHING past Kerry.

Kerry will lose in the primaries, I believe. Dean will win.

But THIS is very important for all of us to know: Kerry's sociopolitical alliances are NOT with the American people. They are with the Bushes and the other Barons/Pirates of Wall Street.

[Monte Carlo]

35. You've posted your share.

You know, you don't have to be a part of Skull n' Bones to be a violent sociopath. And many of those who are sociopaths were never in Skull n' Bones. Unless you post something specific, saying Kerry did this, this, and this at this place and at this time, you are just speculating and proving him guilty by association.

[seventhson]

37. Well, if you are a "made" member of the Cosa Nostra

then you are by definition guilty by association. It is racketeering. A criminal enterprise. And Kerry's eyes are wide open.He STILL protects their secrets as does Bush. he clams up if asked about it. THIS is why his loyalties must be questioned.


Skull and Bones is, in my opinion, a fully operatve criminal enterprise. ALL of its members are complicit in crimes great and small - whether it is the theft and possession of the stolen and grave-robbed skull of Geronimo or a Native American child or other stolen grave items which are kept under lock in its New Haven Tomb--- or the financing of fascist murderers and dictators and assassinations and coups of their democratically elected opponents. They are guilty by their association with members of a criminal enterprise if they HAD KNOWLEDGE of the crimes and remain silent. Kerry KNOWS what his fellow Bonesmen have done, what crimes they have committed and which continue and he remains silent and is thus complicit.

[polmaven]

171. Tell me, please, how you are so well informed

about exactly what Skull and Bones is and does.

Are you a member? That would seemingly be the only way you can possibly have such intimate knowlege of the inner circles of this "secret" organization.

Or, could it be that you are possibly just a little jealous?

[seventhson]

183. I am from an insider family

I am writing a book about it.

I have family members IN Skull and Bones and the other secret societies at Yale.

My father did intelligence work and worked with the antifascist underground in WWII.

He discovered that there were US financial interests (people from Yale, his alma mater, and Harvard, where he attended Law School) MANAGING HITLER and RUNNING THE NAZI OPERATIONS (financial and military).

He tried to expose this during the war and suffered a heavy price for it. His own classmates betrayed him.

But he schooled me on it.

I also attended school with these people. I went to a NE prep school. I had classmates and friends recruited into Skull and Bones and intelligence.

So I have spent years researching these issues.

Jealous? Because I'm not a rich ft ass fascist?

No way.

Pissed off and want to see them get justice, jail, and repay the American people (not to mention people from destroyed democracies around the world)? You bethchersweetass.

Justice.

And the prevention of more irrevocable horror by ONE MORE OF THESE KULL BASTARDS LIKE BUSH OR KERRY!!!!

AND IF I DISAPPEAR FROM THE BOARD YOU'LL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

Just remember what I taught y'all.

[polmaven]

224. You have family members on the inside

who told you all about the evil secretsocieties...and lived to tell you more? They are members of these evil fascist societies yet you believe every word they say?

I am a member of The Order of Eastern Star, a fraternal organization which requires a Masonic affiliation, and has oaths and some secrets. It is a private organization, and votes are taken to confer new memberships.

Am I a fascist out to destroy humankind as well?

Seventhson, I think you need to step back, take a deep breath, and chill. Your hatred of Skull and Bones is coloring everything you read or hear about Senator Kerry.

Until you show me an authenticated document, advocating the overthrow of the United States Government, and signed by John Kerry, or, for that matter, signed by G.W. Bush, or any other S&B member, I will not be convinced that it is anything more than a prestigious social club conferring social acceptance, and nothing more.

[oasis]

139. "If Kerry is the nominee, I will shut my trap".....I guess you will since

it is already in the rules. :-)

Hopefully you will use your considerable talent at negative research on Rethugs running for national office in your state and report it back to DUers.

[Old and In the Way]

211. Are you now inferring that Kerry is a child molester?

Man, you are really scraping the bottom of the smear barrel, Seventhson.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Always follow the money.

Are stocks evil, in and of themselves? No. But each voter should be aware of the possible conflicts of interest that may arise when legislation concerning those holdings comes to the floor of Congress. Let's take two candidates as an example. On the Public Integrity Center site, it shows that Dean is vested in 30+ stocks. Am I going to keep an eye on any legislation that may have an effect on the value of those holdings? You bet. Am I going to take an interest in Dean's support or non-support of that legislation? You bet. Kerry is vested in 550+ interests. Same goes for him. Now, when making a decision on two quality candidates, will the fact that one guy has $4M invested in 30+ different companies and the other guy has $400M invested in 550+ companies make an impact on my voting preference? It'll have some weight.

I think that this issue deserves to be looked at seriously and should not be tossed out on the basis of candidate support. All information should be looked at and accepted or discarded on its intrinsic merits. Our country and our politics is run by money. Always follow the money.

[seventhson]

36. Thank YOU!!! I was beginning to think...

that candidate's vested interests were irrelevent to the average DUer.

Of course I understand that the devotees of Kerry prefer not to habve anyone look at this issue.

But, believe me, if Dean has substantial investment in dirty stocks I will raise some sand about it.

Gore's MOTHER's trust, which had Occidental Petroleum in the portfolio, (even though it was only like $500,000 and did not BELONG to Gore) bugged the hell outta me. But it was his MOTHER's money for Chrissakes.

CHENEY got THIRTY MILLION from Halliburton when he ran for Vice President!!!

These HUGE amounts of money controlled by the top tier politicians is WHY this issue MUST be addressed.

It is not, to me, just the fact that he is filthy rich --- it is about WHY he wants to be president. Is it to help US and the WORLD or is it to protect the filthy rich elites?

THAT is the issue to me.


But PLEASE maybe some of the others who see through Kerry could say a word that such issues are NOT pure tripe.

[blondeatlast]

57. Of course wealth is important, but I find this info unreliable.

No link to the original document or where it can be found.

Remember doing bibliographies and reference pafges for your school reports? They are required for a reason, friend.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. The info is from their mandated campaign disclosures.

http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/

[blondeatlast]

231. All I'm saying is that I want the SAME information from a different source

Your guy made the allegation, it's up to him to prove his point.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. Imo, it may mean something or it may not.

But to dismiss this information as irrelevent is the height of self-delusion. The funny thing is that this issue is raised regarding Halliburton, Bechtel et. al., but is somehow irrelevent concerning Dems. Hypocracy.

[sangh0]

41. If you took your own advice

you'd see that most of that money is Theresa's, not Kerry's, something that was left out of the initial post.

[seventhson]

45. I have asked for links on that

do YOU know how much is HIS and HERS?

It still is their JOINT marital property unless proven otherwise and he was still filthy rich BEFORE he married her.

But unless you have links to prove me wrong then you have produced no evidence to support that claim.

Show me.

[blondeatlast]

55. Someone asked you first! (For links)

Find me abnother site that offers the same sort of information and I'll believe you.

[ima_sinnic]

56. seventhson, i pretty much agree with you

Kerry gives me the creeps. Somewhere up there KoKo1 says it well: something . . . "odd" about him.
He's a liar, noncomittal/wishy-washy, narcissistic, inaccessible, snooty, AND (apparently) greedy. Supposedly he's "wise to" BFEE/IranContra yet he pretty much sucks up to Bush's agenda. It's not "candidate bashing" to warn people of gut feelings: Kerry is Status Quo. I cannot picture him caring about the passions and needs of ordinary American citizens, only what is expedient and politically to his gain.

[disgruntella]

61. you forgot to mention

"Kerry has cooties" and "Kerry eats worms"

I don't deny anyone their right to express gut feelings about a candidate, positive or negative. But to present them as fact *is* candidate bashing, and I see a lot of that in this thread.

[sangh0]

66. seventhson, you are being disingenous

You claimed it's Kerry's money, so it YOU who have to back it up with some evidence.

The question isn't "Do I know how much is HIS and HERS?"

The question is "Do YOU know how much is HIS and HERS?"

[blondeatlast]

168. Precisely. It is up to the accuser to prove the case.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. And there's no connection between THK and JFK?

Chimp is no longer on the board of the Carlyle group, but Poppy is. So Chimp shouldn't be criticized? Please.

[disgruntella]

48. kerry kerry kerry kerry kerry

"I think that this issue deserves to be looked at seriously and should not be tossed out on the basis of candidate support. All information should be looked at and accepted or discarded on its intrinsic merits."

The problem is that the information about Kerry in this thread, particularly by the original poster, does not pass the "intrinsic merit" test. There is no solid evidence posted here that Kerry's elite background has influenced him as a politician. It's all based on the assumption that having money and going elite schools is instrinsically BAD and CORRUPTING.

Believe that if you want to, but it's not a serious argument for me without solid evidence.

[seventhson]

64. Oh Jeepers, Disgruntella

The evidence on Kerry is HUGE and Blatant:

1. He voted to give Bush the authority to go to war in Iraq.
2. He voted for the Constitution disembowelling Patriot and Homeland Security (sic) Acts.
3. He filmed reenactments of "heroic" deeds (where he shot a wounded soldier possibly in violation of the Geneva Convention) in Vietnam which he plays for the press to prove what a "warrior" he is.
4. He got discherged out of the military early to go into politics (shows he got special treatment)
5. Married the widow of a Skull and Bones opponent of Bush who died in an unexplained Plane Crash.
6. His top political advisor is a Skull and Bones Member.
7. He is STILL a member of a secret order with BOTH Bush I and Bush II and REFUSES to discuss it (as he took an oath to keepo its doings secret and to remain loyal to the order).
8. He LIED about throwing his Vietnam medals away in protest of the war (he strill has them).
9. He lied about the "reason" he did not throw them away: he said he did not have time to get them (on his way to the Wshington demonstration where the medals toss was planned) but , as it turns out he wore the medals during testimony the previous day in Congress reading a ghost written speech opposing the Vietnam War.
10. He quit the Vietnam Verts against the War a few months after getting national publicity speaking on their behalf.
11. He told close friends that he was supportive of the contras (see Brian Willson's Letter to Kerry from a Vietnam Vet)
12. He okayed a plan and Senate certification stating that Vietnam had no remaining POW's or human rightys abuses at the same time as his cousin was negotiating a BILLION DOLLAR real estate development deal in Vietnam that DEPENDED on the certification in order to be approved.
13. Kerry's investigations of Cocaine/CIA/Contra and BCCI/CIA failed to conclude or name the senior Bush as an active participant in criminal activities - and does not even MENTION Bush as a proposed target of future investigations in his conclusions cowritten with a Republican.
14. Has FAILED to pursue investigations of failures and wrong-doings of his hockey teammate and school chum from the prestigious St. Paul's Episcopal Preperatory School in New Hampshire- FBI Honcho Robert Mueller-- in either the Oklahoma City investigation or 9-11 or anything else
15. He STILL refuses to renounce his membership in Skull and Bones where he is currently a sworn current member with BOTH Bushes.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

81. Did I say there was anything fishy?

I just said that it merits keeping an eye on. But here's an example for you to chew on:

SBC COMMUNICATIONS INC Stocks or Bonds Candidate $1,001 $15,000
VERIZON COMMUNICATIONS INC Stocks or Bonds Candidate $1,001 $15,000
FAIRPOINT COMMUNICATIONS INC TELECOM SERVICES Stocks or Bonds Spouse $1,000,001 $5,000,000
http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDDET&CID=4#asset


Tel-Com Vote? Aye.

Does this necessarily mean Kerry was profiting from his vote? No. I'm just saying that it bears watching. Same for all candidates. Imo, it's a valid issue.

[styersc]

46. ZZZZZZZZZZ

Snore.

[HFishbine]

47. All I know is

if I becamse a multi-millionaire, my political leanings wouldn't change. Just because some rich people work to serve their own interests doen't mean that all do. The notion that if someone is rich they can't be a "real" democrat doen't hold water for me.

[Zolok]

50. Wonderful post

full of self righteousness and misdirection....
Let me note that Doctors, like Howard Dean make a good living-a very good living and it's been my experience that they can be good and clue-less aboutt he lives of average americans as well.
I mean as long as we are flirting with class warfare...
And while we are grousing about money it certainly didn't take Doctor Dean very long to spurn the campaign finance system when his own coffers started filling up did it?

I hate to do this, but this daily cut-Kerry dead on the DU thing is getting awfully tired.
It's a sign that the Deaniacs are worried about something, what I wouldn't know.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[blondeatlast]

54. Okay, I'm a librarian; I know how to tell good, unbiased research from

the bad.

This site seems to be overwhelmingly interested in bashing Kerry.

Every article seems to be anti-Kerry. That's fine, it they provide references to back up their accusations. All I can say is--this doesn't meet my criteria for BALANCED information, I wouldn't recommend it to a patron.

[seventhson]

73. Jesus, Librarian, it lists Kerry's financial disclosure statements

THAT is as objective as it comes.

Yes it has a critique of kerry -- but there are links to ALL the candidates and articles about, for example, how this is a "Millionaire's" race.

Granted THAT is American politics. Only millionaires need apply. But still to say it is completely biased when the disclosure forms are there to peruse is completely disengenuous.

I posted it for people to do their own research and to show what amazed me: that Kerry is worth damn near a BILLION dollars (and yes that is his joint worth with his wife).

I do not know what he was worth BEFORE he married her.

and the links won't load on my computer so if anyone has a link or details please let me know.

Thanks

[seaglass]

59. So which of his assets are bothering you?

I think if you looked at the listing of assests that it is clear to see that the majority of assets are Theresa's, I mean it says SPOUSE right in the file.

The first asset listed as JOINT is a painting valued 250,000-500,000

The first asset listed as CANDIDATE is US Treasury Bills valued at 50,000-100,000

The assets are listed from the most valuable to least.

So what is your point?

[seventhson]

65. Link for that info?

nt

Then I'll comment

[sangh0]

67. WHere's your link?

You made the claim that it's Kerry's money. YOU back it up

[WilliamPitt]

71. That's a hoot

YOU asking for a link is classic humor.

HIS link is YOUR link above.

[seventhson]

80. a link to the page, Will, not the site

I do not see it on the main page.


And I cannot seem to load some of the links.

I said that in another post so your rudeness is not appreciated.

Maybe it could just be posted but a link to the specific page where the info comes from would help as there are DOZENS of links at the site I linked.

SPECIFICITY, okay?

[WilliamPitt]

82. I don't give a wet damn what you appreciate

I don't appreciate you making shit up to serve your goals. I don't appreciate seeing you say he "sold out the POWs and MIAs" without a shred of backup.

You have no credibility, nor decency, nor truth. Whatever correct data you have is pissed away by your fantastically ignorant and obnoxious charges. Go ahead and hit alert, you victim. I call you bullshit, and I don't give a flying fuck if you appreciate it or not.

"Hey Bob"

"Yeah John"

"I know we're only teenagers, but I was wondering..."

"What, John?"

"In twenty years, after I've gone to Yale and served in a war and gotten medals and denounced the war before Congress and made Nixon's enemies list, I was wondering if you'd help me start an evil enterprise to spread evil. Whadaya say?"

"Sure John. Pass me my skates."

[seventhson]

104. Funny

I posted the links months ago and was "alerted" on because they were Vietnam Vets (conservative) I now post the link to a left wing site that confirms the fact that there was a controversy in which the Kerry cousins stood to make a Billion or so off of Kerry voting to "certify" Vietnam as okay on the POW and human rights issues.

The links I provided before (which were archived on the old DU) spoke of this issue and the tribespeople who were still being oppressed as well as the vets who were pissed off about it. I have a good friend whose uncle is still "missing" in southeast asia and he tolds me a lot of vest are still pissed at Kerry's vote.

I honestly don't know if there are POW's alive who were sold out or whether the stories of human rights abuses are true (hell we have human rights abuses here and guantanom and Kerry isn't foing Jack-doodoo about it. Not even claiming Congress isn't an ATM like Byrd did.

I think he is gutless and that vote was probably a travesty. He may very well have sold out vets and pows and mia's families. I believe he did for profit. The fact that it set up a Billion dollar deal for his family is the kicker and makes me wonder.

Anyway -- I tend not to hit alert on folks whom are not clearly freepers or dangerously violent or crazy. You are not clearly a freeper. Will, and I can take your heat and give it back too.

Sad part is I agree with you on just about everything except Kerry.

What school were you teaching at again?

[WilliamPitt]

106. You don't know shit

You fabricate and obfuscate and smear. Again, you ruin your genuine concerns with nonsense. Connecting your rabidly insane Vietnam rantings to the Center for Public Integrity link ("I gave one link and got attacked, and then gave this link and get attacked, waaaaaa") is bullshit of the purest ray serene.

You are transparent.

[seventhson]

126. Okay , Mr. Pitt: Here;s the "rabidly insane Vietnam rantings" PROOF

Direct quote form the site page linked in the riginal post here from the left leaning Center for Publ;ic Integrity



"In 1991 the Senate created the Select Senate Committee on POW/MIA Affairs to investigate the possibility that U.S. prisoners of war and soldiers designated missing in action were still alive in Vietnam. Acting as chairman, Kerry helped persuade the group to vote unanimously that no American servicemen still remained in Vietnam. In doing so, he helped begin the process of normalizing U.S.-Vietnamese relations.

"But Kerry’s participation in the Committee became controversial in December 1992 when Hanoi announced that it had awarded Colliers International, a Boston-based real estate company, an exclusive deal to develop its commercial real estate potentially worth billions. Stuart Forbes, the CEO of Colliers, is Kerry’s cousin."

I didn't fabricate this. I just reported it.

Vietnam Vets were furious about it.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[sangh0]

130. Proof of what?

It only proves that

1) Kerry's suncommittee determined that there were no MIA's still alive in VN

2) Kerry's cousin got a contract w/VN

There's nothing wrong with either of these two.

[seaglass]

149. it was your link from above, I looked at the asset detail.

On edit:

But just to be helpful, here is the link to the asset detail - on the same page as your link:

http://www.bop2004.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDDET&CID=4#asset

And one more thing, if it was a "must read" , why didn't you read it?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

72. Why make up reasons not to like Kerry? His vote, his "get over it"

are enough for me. When you dig for more, it gets suspect - like mebbe you are compiling files on...ALL DEMOCRATS?

[WilliamPitt]

74. But but but but but but

Kerry sold out the POWs and MIAs!!!! He was hockey teammates with Mueller in prep school!! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!

[seventhson]

78. That's right. And you love him for it.

You WERE a teacher.

Ever read "The Power Elites" by C. Wright Mills.

You demeean me and risicule me for pointing out the obvious. The way these prep schools and secret societies work is they create social bonds which make it almost impossible to "betray" your class peers.

When you have showered and told dirty stories and "fought" against your opponents together (as Kerry and Mueller undoubtedly did as Hockey Teammates) _ Won victories nd suffered defeats: these kinds of adolescent bondings make it damn near IMPOSSIBLE to take your "friends" and peers down later in life. Bush was at a competing prep school (Andover) withg St. Paul's. These schools were generally financed and run by the ruling elites for exactly this purpose.

Be dismissive with me if you want, Will.

But it betrays your ignorance or deliberate misinformation about the significance of these social networks.

but but but my Butt

[WilliamPitt]

79. Buckethead

I TAUGHT at a prep school, goodball. I know for a brass-bottomed fact that high school kids DO NOT plot to take over the world in the hockey locker room.

You're a fanatic, and fanatics cannot ever be reasoned with. Facts mean nothing to you. Only filth and lies. You're a sad case, pal.

[seventhson]

83. Do you know that the Intelligence community recruits in Prep Schools?

Well I went to one and they were.

I KNOW some of these guys Will.

Where did you teach anyway? Andover (Bush's alma mater) St. Paul;'s? Groton? St. Marks? Huh? They are all wall street opertions and you know that.

The initiations were usu7ally not in public places like locker rooms anyway. They were in weird subbasements and "crypts".

The point is that the bonding of peers in the wealthy elites is what causes them not to turn on one another in the halls of power.

Talk about sad cases, Will. You are DEFENDING Mueller et al and such activities of the wealthy elites.

So glad they taught you to use name calling as a last resort.

It won't work, though.

Whern Kerry renounces his Bushian secret society and spills the beans (maybe it will have to be on the witness stand or in the halls of Congress as a witness unless he pleads the fifth) -- THEN we will see if my perspective is true or false.

As long as Kerry keeps his oath to Bones and keeps its secrets he cannot be trusted.

[WilliamPitt]

85. I am defending their ability to play hockey together

and STILL waiting for any proof of this allegation, which I asked you for weeks ago, and was told you were unable to give it.

I smell you from here.

[seventhson]

119. Defend the teamates Kerry and Mueller all you want

Neither of them HAD to go on to become fascists.

Which Prep School did you teach at Will?

My own experience would require me to reveal my identity (and since I have had enough death threats for my posts already I decline to do that until I publish my book -- when I will have to take the risk in order to feed my children.)

I will state on my honor that I have first hand knowledge that such recruiting for secret socieites was done before the senior year of a very prominent New England prep school and that, according to the son of an intelligence officer who attended with me, he was told by his father that "the old intelligence guys were really pissed that it was disclosed" (that included his father).

There are links to such recruitment online and I will try to find them. But my evidence is my own first hand experience. Unless you were a member, you would not be aware of it. In the situation I was involved in I knew the people involved and they disclosed it publicly becuae the police were involved during the "initiation" which went afoul. Ot was discussed at school assembly and then buried. But those who knew about it talked about it and because my father did intelligence work I was close to these people, Okay?


That is probably not good enough for you and even telling this probably endangers me. But it is the honest truth.

Take it or leve it.

I think Kerry's a spook.

[blm]

113. Is that how Dean's brother

ended up in the CIA?

Oops...excuse me, he was only "on vacation" in Vietnam at the time. He wasn't really working for George Bush, so stop saying that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

167. Link?

I know the heresay, how bout some proof? Poppy was head of the CIA for a year, from January 1976- January 1977.http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/bush.html Unfortunately for you, Dean's brother was captured in 1974 and executed. http://slate.msn.com/id/2086440/


Bullshit!

[blm]

190. Poppy was ALWAYS big at the CIA.

ALWAYS. You want to believe he only came on board in 76, go ahead.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

202. That's a fair point. I have no doubt about it.

I do, however, have doubts that Charlie Dean was controlled by Poppy.

Call me sceptical.

[blm]

205. As silly as Kerry being controlled by Poppy?

.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

220. Yes.

Who's suggesting that?


edit: Keep me separate from others. If someone else believes it, it doesn't necessarily follow that I do.

[seventhson]

180. Maybe.

Maybe he did.

I am keeping my eye on that.

Hi Dad too in China after WWII worked for a CIA front airline.

I am on it.

But we are talking his borther and father NOT DEAN.

In Kerry's case I believe he IS the spook.

I do not believe that Dean is.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

181. See the post just previous to yours.

And ye shall look no further.

[seventhson]

189. Well Thanks...

But the CIA tie does concern me.

One of my specialties (I had to do this for federal litigation)is community netwrok analysis. Networks of communities whch indicate sociopolitical and other alliances.

The Dean family ties to Yale, the CIA as well as to Wall Street concern me. BUT so far there is no real DIRT there. Just being part of that community is too close for comfort and to not investigate and watch carefuilly. Dean, though, is unlike Kerry who was and IS an active member of the secret society with the Bushes (as far as I can tell).

Kerry may very well have played sports AGAINST the Bush brothers.

But as I recollect Dean's private school , while very elite, was not in the same league or circuit.

BLM's nice obfuscation on this issue was neat, though.

Thansk for proving it to be a falsity (hopefully).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

192. From what I've read, it concerned the Deans, too.

I think it's something that'll never be known. One has to be selective in which :tinfoilhat: that one is going to wear. I'll listen to anything, though.

[blm]

204. Bush was a major CIA player BEFORE 76

and if you buy that he only came on board in 76 then you buy Bush's OWN claim of noninvolvement before that time.

[seventhson]

75. I'm not making them up. I'm LISTING them

and Kerry is my only real concern. I can live with almost all of the rest of them

[WilliamPitt]

76. Baloney

You're making them up as you go. "Sold out POWs and MIAs" is only the most recent example.

[sangh0]

84. Words are funny things

And it's particularly funny the way seventhson thinks the word "fantasize" means "list"

[OrdinaryTa]

88. Kerry's Image Problem

I don't see anything appealing about Kerry that overcomes his negatives. His war record is unconvincing, and he voted for the invasion of Iraq. As far as I'm concerned, there's no need to reach further.

Maybe something appealing is really there, but I don't see it. Why is John Kerry running for president? If he were really all that concerned for the common good of humanity, why did he vote for the war? It's really unforgiveable.

Perhaps it's a case of "to know him is to love him". But he doesn't seem like the kind of person I want to get to know. That old-fashioned style of speaking is very off-putting. And there's that other matter - he voted for the war! It's very hard to overlook that.

No need to multiply entities. Tell your story walking, John. If you were truly Kennedyesque, you would have voted against the war.

[robbedvoter]

94. Kerry's your concern? Bush is mine. If Kerry is nominated

I'll vote for him, my good resons against it and your fantasies notwithstanding. PNAC beats Skull&Bones, Dem beats election thief any day. Even Lieberman.

[salin]

86. in a rare moment indeed,

words almost escape me. This thread is rather.... unbelievable. And not in a "wow!" sort of way.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. It's like being asked to rebut the WIZARD OF OZ as though it were fact

[salin]

89. while we could be talking about....

stuff like the myths told by the administration about nearly any/all policy they have promoted in 3 years - take your pick - lets take those myths that they market to the public and dispell them - because in these cases there is PLENTY of real concrete stuff to counter their pretty little wizard of oz tales they call economic policy, security policy, energy policy, foreign policy, environmental policy, etc.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

90. If only the thread starter would focus on that

it is a more worthy obsession

[OrdinaryTa]

91. Kerry's Four Month Tour in Vietnam

It's possible to overstate the case against Kerry, but there definitely is one. Because he's been rich and protected his entire life, he was able to pull strings and get out of Vietnam when the novelty wore off. He'd gotten the medals he came for; there were no other goals to accomplish. Lest his crew get pissed off at him, Kerry pulled strings to get them safely reassigned, too.

And ... let us not forget ... Kerry voted for the war.

[salin]

92. So, he only went to get medals

and he only faced danger (as did his men) to get medals? He couldn't have been fooled as a young man - as most of the country was - by the propoganda (like todays) about the necessity of the war? And wouldn't his later, public protesting of that policy, put him on the outs with those in power who, presumably, he would have been trying to impress if his only reason for going - and his only reason for putting himself in harms way - was to get medals?

In my opinion, this is a shallow interpretation, imo, and doesn't fit with the whole picture.

Now the war vote - I take that as a much more serious and legitimate issue to discuss.

[OrdinaryTa]

107. Kerry Didn't Stay Very Long, Did He?

I don't know any other interpretation to put on Kerry's odd behavior in volunteering for Vietnam and then staying only four months. Did he know what he was getting himself into?

Kerry used a chickenshit technicality to get out of combat. Why did he do that? He was healthy and able-bodied when he left, but he took advantage of a loophole that, strictly speaking, didn't really apply to him. My theory is that he came to puff up his resume, which isn't that as uncommon as you might think.

There are other possible interpretations for why Kerry used some bullshit excuse to leave Vietnam after only a third of his tour. Personally, I think he got what he was after, and he left. It's a bit irregular for an officer to do that, but it's not unheard of.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. yeah right..nevermind that he was injured..he pulled strings

[OrdinaryTa]

100. Trivial Injuries

Awarding the purple heart for trivial injuries distorts its meaning, but three times Kerry glommed a medal historically intended for disabling or crippling injuries. It's really disgraceful that this man is claiming to be a war hero.

Kerry's supporters compare him to draft dodgers, but they really ought to compare him with other purple heart recipients, guys who were really injured. Kerry's cheapo purple hearts make a mockery of the genuine sacrifices that were made. They also call into question whether his valor medals were truly earned.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. My father had a purple heart and wasn't "crippled"

DOes that mean I should go spit on his grave?

[OrdinaryTa]

127. Most Purple Hearts Are Legitimate

Most purple hearts are legitimate, but the fortunes of war are such that some guys get trivial injuries. When a guy gets a purple heart for a trivial injury, it isn't in the same category as a guy with a real one. Technically it's the same thing, but it's really not. In most cases it doesn't matter. But it matters when a soldier collects three cheap purple hearts and uses them to get out of combat.

Ordinarily it would devastate morale if an officer were to use a loophole to get back to the states. In Kerry's case, he pulled strings to get his whole crew reassigned.

[WilliamPitt]

95. "He'd gotten the medals he came for"

And he only had to get wounded three times to get them. Gosh, what a bastard.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. It's fucking laughable isn't it...but admin permits it

[sangh0]

116. Divisiveness

increases the # of hits. It's a good business decision.

[OrdinaryTa]

102. Kerry's Awards

Kerry got the kind of awards that officers get. Bullshit awards. Go out to a VA hospital and meet guys who were awarded genuine purple hearts. They're not merit badges.

[oasis]

114. "go out to a VA hospital" I dare YOU to do just that and repeat what

you have said here about "cheapo" purple hearts.

[OrdinaryTa]

122. Those Guys Already Know

The guys in VA hospitals know the difference between real purple hearts and cheap ones. Kerry got not just one cheapo, he got three of them! Even more disgracefully, he used the cheapo purple hearts to cut his tour of duty down to four months.

This is not heroic. Not a bit.

[robbedvoter]

96. And Gore had bodyguards and McCain was a traitor while POW

I never thought I'd defend Kerry, but you are playing this like a page from Karl Rove's little book. A chickenhawks wet dream! Take someone's best feature and turn it into a liability (Gore invented the internet - ha!ha!ha!)
What BS!

[OrdinaryTa]

103. Kerry's Best Feature

If Kerry's best feature is his questionable military record, he's in trouble. He got three purple hearts for trivial, non-disabling injuries. He's allowed to claim them on the basis of a technicality, it's chickenshit to do that. Guys can get away with one cheapo purple heart, but three? That's especially disgraceful for an officer.

The guy's a phony.

[blm]

111. Charge pushed by Nixon operatives, repeated in press for 30 years

and now by OrdinaryTa.

Colson, Segretti, Atwater and Rove did a great job.

[OrdinaryTa]

118. Guilt by Association

Putting me in with Nixon's people does not add a single day to Kerry's extremely short tour of duty in Vietnam. Since Kerry is positioning himself as a war hero, he really should explain why he returned to the United States after only four months. He exploited a loophole intended for guys who were wounded far more seriously.

After only 4 months in country, healthy, able-bodied John Kerry boarded the plane taking him back to safety. This is a matter of record, and Kerry has not addressed it.

[blm]

121. You and seventhson are pushing Guilt by Association.

And then have the nerve to accuse others of doing so.

You ARE repeating Nixon charges against Kerry. That's YOUR choice, pal.

[OrdinaryTa]

123. Kerry's Short Tour

Kerry is vulnerable on this short tour issue. Why did he leave country after only four months? He got out on a chickenshit technicality, and it doesn't surprise me that Republicans will take advantage of it. It's a definite weakness.

Kerry was healthy and able-bodied, but he left Vietnam much earlier than his original orders called for. It looks like chickenshit, and it probably is. The longer he refuses to address this, the more questionable it gets.

John, why did you leave Vietnam after only four months?

[blm]

125. HE WAS SHOT THREE TIMES.

Because he VOLUNTEERED for every mission they offered. Much to the concern of his crew even.

[OrdinaryTa]

128. He Was Not Shot At All

Kerry was hit with fragments, nothing as disabling as a gun shot wound. His record is very weak, and he knows it. You might ask John Kerry why he has refused to allow release of the medical records concerning those awards.

[WilliamPitt]

136. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

He was "hit by fragments." Oh how rich. Ever been "hit by fragments"? From a grenade or a mortar or an explosion near you? I'm sure you're tough enough to brush it off.

:eyes:

[OrdinaryTa]

150. Kerry's Wounds

We actually know very little about Kerry's wounds. I'm guessing there's a reason he's refused access to the medical records that pertain to them. We do know he wasn't disabled from his injuries, so it's possible that Kerry's "wounds" might have been trivial even in a civilian context. But it's not the cheapo purple hearts in themselves; it's the fact that he used them to get out of combat.

Kerry was so gung ho for combat, we are told, that he volunteered. Four months later he used loopholes to get out of combat. What's up with that? What changed Kerry's mind about fighting?

[blm]

164. That doesn't jive with what his crew said.

They said they were even mad at Kerry for volunteering for every mission that came their way. If he was so anxious to get home quickly, why did he risk his life so often and volunteer for missions to rescue others that were certainly dangerous?

[blm]

99. ROTFLMFAO!

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. People have been tombstoned for saying more truthful things about Clinton

go figure

[OrdinaryTa]

109. Kerry's Four Month Tour

"War Hero" John Kerry served only four months of a combat tour. He was able-bodied and healthy when he left Vietnam, leading to the speculation that there's something quite irregular about what he did.

Personally I'm not sure how to interpret Kerry's behavior. Did he find combat not to his liking? What did he think he was getting himself into when he volunteered?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. He was thinking "My Skull and Bones sponsor told me I would be president

someday so I better fake me some war medals"

:eyes:

Have you no shame?

[OrdinaryTa]

133. Kerry's War Record

It's not implausible that a guy considering a career in Democratic politics might want a war record. Kerry's original six-month tour wasn't very impressive - he might as well have been sailing in the Gulf of Mexico.

He might have outfoxed himself after applying for swift-boat training. The mission changed, and it turned out to be more dangerous than he'd bargained for. So Kerry exploited a loophole and went home. To make sure his crew didn't feel betrayed, he arranged to get them transferred to safe duty too.

It was hugely irregular, the kind of stuff that investigative reporters love to dig into.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. you've already posted about the military rather contemptuously anyway

Isn't it a bit contradictory to ask for clarification of valor when you don't regard it as valor either way?. If it were clarified for you, you would then accuse him of being a baby killing serial murderer.

Why not just cut to the chase?

[OrdinaryTa]

227. You Noticed!

It's true that I've posted about the military rather contemptuously, but not the entire military. Mostly just the officers, not the enlisted men. The military we have today hasn't won a war against a serious enemy in 50 years. The reason for that, in my opinion, is that the officer corps is corrupt.

Kerry's cheapo purple hearts and questionable valor awards aren't especially noteworthy. That's the rule rather than the exception. I don't know what Kerry did to earn a Silver Star; it's possible he chased a wounded man and shot him in the back. This wouldn't be all that unusual an event.

[blondeatlast]

172. No kidding--this is ridiculous. I feel like I'm reading a Rethug site.

[oasis]

98. I agree, we need more dirt poor, country lawyer Abe Lincoln types

in the Democratic Party leadership. I care to be educated in where Democrats will find such a person the 21st century.

[seventhson]

112. Both Kucinich and Edwards and Gephardt came from that background

I like them too. Blue collar or working poor or dirt poor.

I would prefer Kucinich in many ways and probably Edwards too. Gephardt is cool with me as well.

Dean's background makes him suspect to me. But I believe he is the most viable and worthy option -- and viability ios key.

I believe that Kerry is a viable candidate for President as is even Gephardt But I believe that Kerry is cut from the same cloth as Bush. They are almost interchangeable to my eyes.

If I am wrong then Kerry must prove it by renouncing his "ORDER"

[oasis]

134. Edwards, Gephardt and DK are far removed from modest incomes.

They come from working class backgrounds with varying degrees of finacial means.

BTW, Bill Clinton came from humble beginnings as well, but by the time he became president, he was able to salt away a pretty good chunk of change.

Clarence Thomas, Imelda Marcos, Arnorld Swartzenegger, Miguel Estrada and scores of others have demonstrated that there is no guarantee that a person coming from a poor background, once in power, will lookout for anyone but themselves.

Although you missed the facetious intent of my original post, I do believe that those who have punched a time clock and carried a lunch pail to work, have a better connection to poor and working class Americans. Unfortunately, this particular demographic hardly has time to get out and vote, much less run for office. We are stuck with being governed by the "well connected class" 99% of which will not hold up the to rigorous examination that many of the "governed" would put them through.

Kerry's actual record of accomplishments should be weighed against any misgivings about what his pedigree might indicate.

[OrdinaryTa]

115. And Not So Many Chickenshit Officers

Vietnam wasn't lost by the enlisted men, it was lost by the officers. (This is another topic altogether.) Kerry seems to have behaved the same as other officers in Vietnam - what's in it for me?

After four months in country, Kerry decided he had enough. So he took his cheapo purple hearts to his commanding officer and said, "See? I've got three of them!"

What a disgrace.

[oasis]

117. Was Kerry wounded in a war by enemies of the United States?

Seems he put his life on the line. How would he possibly know what the outcome would be? Please don't try to sidestep this question as you have previously done.

[sangh0]

120. Kerry hired those enemies to wound him

Never misunderestimate the lengths those Skull and Boners will go to get a medal! :-)

[OrdinaryTa]

129. What Are the Facts?

Kerry's supporters aren't offering any documentation; they use the fact of his awards as incontestable evidence in itself. But Kerry's purple hearts seem to have been awarded on the basis of trivial injuries. An able-bodied, healthy John Kerry left Vietnam after only a third of his tour.

[sangh0]

131. It's obvious you don't know what a fact is

That's why you have to ask. For example,

But Kerry's purple hearts seem to have been awarded on the basis of trivial injuries.

That "trivial" is an opinion

[OrdinaryTa]

153. Well, Here are Some Facts

Trivial or not, Kerry's injuries weren't disabling, and Kerry was healthy and able-bodied when he left Vietnam. He used his non-disabling injuries as grounds for skittering away from combat.

The facts suggest that Kerry's actions were irregular, especially for an officer. It is quite exceptional that able-bodied personnel return home after only four months. I'd question why the Navy allowed it! The early out from Vietnam isn't automatic, just customary.

This is the kind of situation investigative reporters like to dig into. Did anybody in Washington pull strings for Kerry? If he gets the nomination, people will be looking into it.

[sangh0]

159. Avoiding the issus is a sign of deceit

You said the injuries WERE trivial, even though the truth is YOU DON"T KNOW what his injuries were. Instead of admitting that, you went and told some more lies.

If you won't be honest about your accusation, why should anyone believe anything you say?

HERE ARE THE FACTS

1) You said Kerry's injuries were trivial
2) You said you don't know what injuries Kerry had

[OrdinaryTa]

165. A Matter of Scale

The historical intent of the Purple Heart was to honor the wounded, the real wounded, not guys who happen to get hit in the arm with a piece of flying debris. This kind of minor injury isn't trivial in the context of sitting at desk, the way the question was put to me earlier. But in the context of battle wounds, it certainly is trivial.

Kerry's wounds weren't serious enough to make him unfit for duty, a fact that suggests that in the ordinary understanding of battle wounds he was hardly injured at all. He used his three not-quite-earned purple hearts to get sent home from Vietnam, a voluntary action that argues against his claimed heroism. The fact that the Navy approved this irregular personnel action admits other interpretations. Perhaps Kerry used his connections to gain personal favors.

Kerry manipulated the regulations to his own advantage. The victims are guys who've genuinely earned the purple heart. Kerry seems to have been aware at the time that his actions would be seen by his own crew as chickenshit. To prevent them from spoiling his political career later on, Kerry arranged to have his crew members transferred to safe duty as well. The whole deal was hugely irregular.

[blondeatlast]

174. Prove this allegation. PLEASE.

[blondeatlast]

173. Reference, please? If it's a fact, show me and I will believe you.

Ex-HS English teacher here--I know how to spot it when I see it.

[OrdinaryTa]

200. Favorable Article

The facts from this article which sound favorable to Kerry are subject to different interpretations. Kerry's people have had a chance to rebut them. Kerry's early departure from Vietnam was indeed irregular, and his successful intervention on behalf of his crew is almost unheard of.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[blondeatlast]

232. Read the article, still no proof.

[OrdinaryTa]

233. Favorable Context

I selected this article out of a number of others because the tone is generally favorable to Kerry. While there's puffery about the circumstances, the article indicates that Kerry's combat tour was cut short on his own initiative. Kerry served only four months.

Even if you argue that Kerry's wounds weren't "trivial" the fact that he remained fit for duty suggests they weren't at all severe. He then used his not-quite-earned purple hearts to exploit a loophole in Navy regulations. After his short combat career, a healthy, able-bodied John Kerry accepted a plum job as an admiral's aide in New York City.

At issue is whether Kerry was heroic. As I interpret the undisputed facts, he appears to have received special treatment because of his connections. If Kerry is all that he claims to be, the case for his heroism could be made less ambiguously. Three purple hearts and no serious injuries, fergoshsakes. Yep, that sounds like an officer!

[Old and In the Way]

221. You are the one making stupid and groundless accusations...

where are your facts?

[OrdinaryTa]

230. Stupid and Groundless Accusations

The facts I cite are not in dispute. Kerry was not in danger as an officer aboard a carrier tender, and the injuries for which he was awarded three purple hearts didn't make him unfit for duty. He used those awards to exploit a loophole in Navy regulations so that he could go home early. Back in the states, he was an aide to an admiral in New York City.

I interpret the agreed-upon facts differently from Kerry and his supporters. For example, when he describes himself as "walking wounded", I think it's more likely that he wasn't hurt seriously. When he exploited a loophole to get out of combat in four months, he acts as though that were a common experience. Not so. Either he was incredibly lucky or he got his purple hearts cheaply. I don't know how he accounts for his transfer as an aide to an admiral in New York City, but it sounds like the deal Bush got with the Air National Guard.

I might be inclined to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt if I thought he really had the interest of ordinary Democrats at heart. But his inexplicable vote for Bush's war is a big turn-off for me. I'm not cutting him any slack; why should I?

[OrdinaryTa]

124. The Four-Month Tour

Kerry used a technicality to get out of combat. His purple hearts weren't in the same category as real purple hearts, and he collected them like box tops. When he had three of them, healthy and able-bodied John Kerry put in for a transfer back to the United States.

[oasis]

137. Max Clelend has enthusiastically endorsed Kerry. Max's judgement

on Vietnam veterans far outweighs anything anyone battling a computer keyboard has to say.

[OrdinaryTa]

145. Cleland Voted for the Iraq War

Cleland shares with John Kerry the responsibility of squandering an opportunity to inform the American people that the war on Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror.

At the time, Cleland was in a tough struggle for re-election in conservative Georgia. I don't accept this as an excuse for voting for the war, but Kerry can't even claim that.

[oasis]

156. This is about Cleland's judgment of Kerry's character. About "cheapo"

purple hearts. That's the issue. Why would a war wounded triple amputee endorse a "fake" hero? Are you a better judge of Kerry on this issue than Max?

Please answer the above question since I have asked it of you on two different threads now.

[OrdinaryTa]

160. Cosmetic Kerry

Officers get unearned decorations all the time; it's not rare. Max Cleland, who was himself an officer, knows this as well as anybody. Cleland is also unlikely to get upset about Kerry exploiting a loophole; why would he? It happens all the time.

[indigo32]

182. I am amazed

that you have the gall to sit there and talk about "Real" purple hearts. It blows me away. Have you ever seen combat? I thank God I haven't. Get real.

[XanaDUer]

108. Your post does nothing more

than convince me Kerry is the man who most terrifies Repukes and the BFEE.

[salin]

132. What I find interesting here - and on other threads

(against Dean and Clark in particular, against Kucinich to a lessor extent)... is how far out on a limb folks will go - getting wilder and wilder in accusations - without recognizing how doing so weakens the very argument that they were making in the first place.

I have yet to see a single example where an undecided voter was one over by any of these tactics. I also have yet to see a single example where a 'supporter' of the attacked candidate, changes their mind (to not be a supporter) of the candidate. Why? Because it the threads often veer into the absurd - making the entire argument (and at times those pushing the argument while they push a particular argument) appear to be cartoonish.

[OrdinaryTa]

135. Wild Accusations

Here's Kerry announcing for president by presenting himself as a Vietnam war hero. But he was there only four months, and left country by using a loophole in the regulations. That's not heroic.

Kerry makes a big deal about being a war hero, and if all he did is exploit administrative weaknesses, it hardly qualifies him to be president. It's not a stretch to say this guy didn't earn the purple heart the same way other guys did. His injuries weren't serious; he left Vietnam healthy and able-bodied. What Kerry did was chickenshit.

[salin]

138. tell me who you have convinced

with your ranting? Tell me how many voters this has persuaded who were supporters and no longer are. Tell me how many undecided decided now to look away from Kerry.

This is really unproductive.

[jcgadfly]

140. Shell fragments

The first thing I thought when I saw the "Kerry's shell fragments" debate was the scene where Frank got his Purple Heart because he caught some "shell fragments" in the eye. Turned out they were eggshell fragments that he got opening a 3-minute egg at breakfast. It didn't matter to the peeople who gave out the Purple Hearts. He met the requirements.

I'm not a Kerry supporter. I will admit, however, that he could be dead three months and still better than what we have in office now.

[salin]

143. nonsequitor:

:hi: Good to see you fellow hoosier!

[jcgadfly]

144. I know it was a non sequitor

Just trying to inject a little levity in what is becoming a very ugly thread.

[salin]

146. hehe.. what I meant

was that I was about to post a nonsequitor - was warning others before I said hello to you! :D

[jcgadfly]

148. gotcha

.

[OrdinaryTa]

147. Meeting the Requirements

He met the requirements

Kerry took advantage of a loophole that allowed guys who were wounded three times to go home. Technically, he was "wounded" but his wounds were so trivial he wasn't even disabled.

The point here isn't whether he met some kind of minimum. Kerry wasn't a conscript, he was an officer. Using a technicality to get out of combat was chickenshit. He is not a hero.

[jcgadfly]

151. Time to get serious for a change

I've never been wounded in combat so I don't know what that's like.

If I recall correctly, the only requirement for a Purple Heart is to be wounded while attached to a front-line unit. It doesn't say "disabled", "debilitated" or "disfigured", just "wounded".

In my opinion, Kerry is as much of a war hero as anyone who served because he served. That's more than can be said for the Unelected fraud and the majority of his advisors who only know war for what benefit it brings to their wallets.

[TreasonousBastard]

228. Jeez, I hate to stick my nose in here , but...

that's pretty much the way I remember it. You're bleeding or broken, and there's no minimum.

I hear guys in WWII got purple hearts for cutting their fingers on a can opener. Dunno how true that is, but it's pretty much what your CO allows. There's some guys in VA hospitals who may not think all that much about someone who got a purple heart for driving a jeep into a tree, but I doubt they'd think all that highly about some jerk on a computer talking about "cheap" purple hearts, either. Combat vets are funny that way. Ain't no "cheap" medals when you've seen action.

So, Kerry got hit with shell fragments? Not much different than getting hit by bullets, except there's a lot more of them and they can be a lot smaller and do less damage if you're far enough away. It's just too bad he didn't come back with a limp, colostomy bag, or plastic arm to show he was a real soldier, isn't it?

Seems even a wheelchair isn't good enough for some people, though.

[OrdinaryTa]

237. No Minimum

Good thing there's no minimum for a purple heart; otherwise John Kerry might have had to pull a normal tour like everybody else. Kerry used his not-quite-earned purple hearts to get back to his real life. Like Dick Cheney, he had more important things to do.

I wonder what the effect would be on combat discipline if Kerry's chickenshit behavior were more common. Three minimal purple hearts, and healthy, able-bodied John Kerry was outta there! It's likely that the VA paraplegics would forgive that, too. But how many of them were wounded late in their tours? Maybe if they'd gotten out in four months like Kerry did, they wouldn't have been injured at all.

The problem with minimal purple hearts is that they devalue the award. In World War II, nobody went home early. In Vietnam, everybody pulled a one-year tour, except for the wounded and the dead. People know what cutting corners is about. It's not heroic.

[oasis]

154. Kerry also met the integrity requirements of war hero Max Cleland.

I don't suppose you want to attack the judgement of Cleland, a triple amputee, who also was combat wounded in Vietnam.

[OrdinaryTa]

157. Cleland Voted to Support Bush's War

Paraplegic Max Cleland knows the horror of war from personal experience. Unfortunately, that did not prevent him from supporting Bush's unnecessary war on the people of Iraq - it should have. Cleland and Kerry and a number of other Democrats dropped the ball. They could have used their vote against the war to raise public awareness that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with September 11th. But they didn't do that, and more's the pity that these guys were once soldiers themselves.

[sangh0]

161. Trivial? What were these "trivial" injuries?

You keep claiming that Kerry's injuries were "trivial", but you've also said you don't know what his injuries were?

How can you know they were trivial if you don't know what they were?

Because they didn't disable him? I know a Purple Heart recipient whose injuries did not disable him.....at the time. He is now dying of those injuries.

Not so "trivial", huh?

[OrdinaryTa]

170. Fit for Duty

Kerry's wounds were not serious enough to make him unfit for duty. It's not simply that he got one such purple heart, Kerry got three of them! That's really pushing it, especially since he used them to cut his tour short.

I hope you're not arguing that purple hearts aren't awarded for trivial wounds. You're wrong about that.

[OKNancy]

169. Four months? He did two tours

are you saying that in his two tours he only did four months?.....and so what? He was in the Navy and sometimes Navy guys are on SHIPS..

[OrdinaryTa]

175. Four Months In Combat

Lt. Kerry did six months on a ship, far from any danger. Later, after specialized training in San Diego, Kerry commanded a "swift boat" close to the shore in Vietnam. After only four months in country, a healthy, able-bodied John Kerry exploited an administrative loophole to return to the United States.

A normal tour is a full year, and Kerry's "tours" combined are short of that. He simply isn't what he appears to be.

[seventhson]

178. Kerry did @eleven months in Nam. Less than 4 in country. Hardly two tours

just to be straight. He came home on assignment shipboard after six months and then returned for about 4 months in a gunboat. Usually it was ride around and shoot at things, I guess. I had a good friend who did this. Kerry's crew shot a baby out of its mother's arms and kerry shot and killed a downed and wounded VC.

Then Kerry got out of the military early (perk).

[OKNancy]

185. Bullshit

You are a liar

[OrdinaryTa]

206. Uncontested Facts

Kerry's war record is much less than it appears. It's really irregular for an able-bodied officer to cut his combat tour short the way Kerry did. After only four months in Vietnam, Kerry got a job as an admiral's aide in New York City.

Don't tell me that Kerry didn't pull strings to get that. Save your breath!

[blondeatlast]

216. Link! All I want is an effing link!

Is that really so much to ask???

[OrdinaryTa]

225. Link

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[Old and In the Way]

223. The Bush school of truth telling.

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes a fact. Sorry "no sale".

[Old and In the Way]

222. Here's my theory.....taking a 1/2 dozen covert RNC operatives

have them post banalities and trite for a year. Then each choose "their" candidate and then slam the shit out of the rest....they can get away with it because they have such a great and fervant desire to see "their" candidate elected.

Total bullshit...I've lost any respect I had for OT and Seventhson after reading thier totally unbackable bullshit on this thread.

[TheYellowDog]

162. Yeah, and Nader owns stock in Wal-Mart

What's your point? Do you even have one?

[curse10]

166. Skulls and bones!! Skulls and bones!!!

The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!! Homeland gestapo!! The sky is falling!!!

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

177. Make way for the Illuminati . . .

"Straight Dope" refeerence.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

179. Proof that dreams do come true

[SweetZombieJesus]

184. This is the stupidest, most asinine thread I've ever read here

And that's saying something.

I'm no Kerry supporter, far from it, but between your idiotic, baseless Skull And Bones crap and OrdinaryTa's cheapening of Kerry's service, you've created an epic of stupidity. Congrats.

[indigo32]

186. Amen SZJ

aint that the truth

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

187. There was a new term coined in the lounge today..Aluminazi's

Props to Blondeatlast

[SweetZombieJesus]

188. I'll coin a new term

Conspiratards. Like it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

191. Love it?

I just spit coffee all over my keyboard

[seventhson]

194. well since you are so sure knowing about Kerry's finances and

sociopolitical alliances is insignificant.

And you seem intent on belittling those who DO care about such things

why bother even responding unless you have something constructive to add?

To some of us here this type of issue is very significant.

C. Wright Mills "The Power Elites" is a must read. Most colleges taught it in Political Science or Sociology 101 or 102 in the 1970's.

It documents how the wealthyt elites, especially the wall street "families" interlock theri corporations and their military and energy and media investments and solidify them through the prep schools, universities and the "Social Register" (ever heard of it?)

Youy mst be on the inside to understand it.

I WAS on the inside and I am trying to expose it for what it is: Corrupt and Evil.

You want to believe it is inane and insignificant and paranoid?

Fine.

But look the fuck around you.

We are devolving into a total dictatorship. The Constitution was shit on by our government (inclusing Kerry).

We detain without trial. We torture prisoners.

We are in deep shit, my friends. You too sweet jesus mocker you.

We are all in deep shit.

So you can make fun all you want.

I am NOT giving in to pettyname calling and snide insults.

I am just telling you what I believe.

You be a sheep or a lemming or even a Capo if you want.

I am NOT giving in.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

197. Yes you are telling us what you believe. That is the most honest

thing you have said all day.

[SweetZombieJesus]

210. I'm sorry, did you say something? All I heard was incoherent ranting

All I got on this end was "I'm a crazy jackass with an agenda who's spreading innuendo and lies."

I'm sorry you're harboring delusions that you're a character in a John Grisham novel, but that's not my fault.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

193. Choose your poison..Illuminati's or ALUMINAZI"S

full credit to Blondeatlast

[blondeatlast]

195. Self-interested vote here!

Aluminnazi's!

Long as I can remember how to spell it, anyway.

[seventhson]

198. How about foe Kerry and Bush "Yale AlumniNazis"

or fo the nonbelievers disinfoirmationsists:

Deny-o-Nazis

You Kerry guys and deniers really can get into a feeding frenzy can't you.

I can take my hits.

I go aup against bloodless prosecutors and attorneys general ebery day in court. Heartless judges too.

I know what I believe and what I stand for.

Name calling demeeans you and vindicates me.

So keep it up Kerry fans.

You will see.

If Kerry gets elected you will be in for four more years of Bushit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

201. Oh please give me a fucking break...if you were a lawyer you would

have spent quite a bit of time on a distinction called EVIDENCE..something you have ZERO concept of. Not a shred of what you have posted but for the article from Center for Public Integrity would be admissible in a court room.

Yeah right..I just fell off the fucking turnip patch!

[fishnfla]

213. Aaer your fingerses getting thicker

or is did you haven mores beers than me?

[Raven]

196. The fact that this thread gets 190+ posts is disgusting.

We all have better things to do than to indulge in this crap. This thread was a piece of crap from the get-go and it has not gotten any better. IGNORE< IGNORE IGNORE...some folks don't deserve any better that that. I'm out of here and I'm not coming back until people can be civil and constructive. What is wrong with you folks!

[seventhson]

199. If you think a thread on Kerry's financial holdings is "disgusting"

you are in the wrong place lady.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

203. No this is not a thread on his financial holdings..it is a thread about

rumors innuendo and your opinion...there was an accidental article from a place with a bit of credibility thrown into the mix to offer up the pretense that since you posted a credible article, the rest of what you have to say is credible.

[Raven]

208. I haven't slogged through all of these posts but

I wonder if it has been mentioned that JFK was probably the richest man in the Senate in his time and FDR was not exactly hurting...but you probably hate them too...you probably hate anyone that was not raised in the back seat of a car. I am in the right place, by the way, you are the one who is in the wrong place. You have said absolutely nothing here of any substance...you are a paper tiger...and unless you take a shot at me, I don't ever intend to read anything you post again. I would recommend that to everybody here who has a brain in their head. Good luck, go elsewhere.

[WilliamPitt]

209. This is about his holdings?

Really?

Let's do a count of the posts in this thread about his holdings.

Let's do a count of the posts in this thread reacting to your vomit about "selling out the POWs and MIAs."

Don't bullshit a bullshitter, friend. And be very, very, very careful how you speak to my mother.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrdinaryTa]

214. Just Lucky, I Guess

After only four months in combat, John Kerry was transferred out of Vietnam to a soft job as an admiral's aide in New York City. His battle wounds - the basis for this fortuitous transfer - have cost him no lasting discomfort. He's just a lucky guy!!

How does he manage to be at the right place at the right time? Just lucky, I guess.

[Raven]

215. Gee, we should all wish that kind of luck on

everyone fighting Bush's war. Why do resent the fact that he wasn't maimed or killed?

[blondeatlast]

218. Because that would be one less Skull and Bones'er.

And one less player for the hockey team.

Where's your priorities? :hi:

[Raven]

219. God! I guess I'm really screwed up!

Anyone who went to "Nam" and got a hangnail is OK with me. :-)

[OrdinaryTa]

226. Bush's War

Kerry's not fighting against Bush's war, he voted for it. He continues to defend his vote and to claim - falsely - that no one could have known Bush was lying.

Kerry cut his Vietnam tour short to about a third of the normal combat tour. Just as he has not explained his vote supporting Bush's war, he hasn't really explained his incredible "luck" in getting three trivial wounds, or his equally incredible "luck" in being transferred to the United States as an admiral's aide in New York City. The facts as they appear strain credulity.

[blondeatlast]

217. Oddly enough, I DO care about the issue, dammit.

That's why I need more than one source for the information.

If the facts are there, let me see them. One source does not make for a fact--anyone who writes for a living will tell you that.

[ShaneGR]

229. Has seventhson become DU's most talented disruptor?

Just wondering.

[oasis]

235. Most "tolerated" would be a more apt description.

:argh:

[Fescue4u]

234. 820 mil?

Man that is a stack of money.

[seaglass]

238. Has anyone actually looked at Seventhson's link,

which, though he said was a "must read" he didn't even read?

He is wrong, look at the data, don't be fooled by the headlines.

[DrFunkenstein]

240. Rich Man Shaking Down Corporate Criminals (I'm Cool With It)

My favorite part:

He was am integral player in the Oliver North Hearings, having launched an investigation in 1987, know as the “Kerry Committee,” that exposed the diversion of drug money from counternarcotic operations to the U.S.-backed Nicaraguan Contras.

In 1992, Kerry coauthored a report for the Committee on Foreign Relations on the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), “an elaborate corporate spider-web” that defrauded depositors of billions of dollars, engaged in money laundering, arms trafficking, and allegedly facilitated the development of Pakistan’s nuclear arms program.

[Snellius]

241. Like those rich bastards John Kennedy and Franklin Roosevelt

.