Dean: My Enthusiasm is Waning

[clar]

He's making me a wee bit uncomfortable. I may go back to undecided. First, I think he does equivocate on issues. It's not a discrete issue, it's many things. Campaign financing, fine, change your mind, but I didn't like how he said he'd hold others accountable for changing their minds. Israel/Palestine. His views are closer to AIPAC'- then they're not. His mispeaking stuff, including the stuff last night that Edwards rightly took him to task for. The "If we can do it in a small state like Vermont" line. I'm not sure that translates. It seems to me that it's easier to do the things he did in Vermont because it is such a small state, then it would be to do it on a wider scale.

I really appreciate that he's spoken out, and broken a kind of invisible barrier re going after bush. I like the 'open source' campaign model, I'm glad he spoke out against the war, but due to the issues above, I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[WilliamPitt]

4. This is whining?

:eyes:

[BurtWorm]

6. No, THIS is whining

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=313746#313772


As a Dean supporter and parent of a 7-year-old, I feel qualified to judge.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. hahaahahahah, nice post

eom.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. 7 seems kind of old to me.

But I guess that memory of earlier years serves just as well.

[haymaker]

10. Yeah, it's incessant

around here. Whaaaaaaaaaa! I'm worried about how Dean will look about whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! He shouldn't have said that whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! He holds his chin in whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Is Dean smart enough whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Dean is against Isreal whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Jesus Christ, those of us who like Dean or want to give him a chance, just don't give a shit about these petty grievances that some of you MUST post EVERY goddamn day.

GIVE IT A REST!

[XanaDUer]

9. This is not whining...

Jeez, touchy.

Clar, I used to support Dean. I found out a lot of stuff about him, here and in other places, and I lost my interest in him. He is a clever politician, I'll give him that. But I don't like the way he changes postitions. The latest was when he was asked about the money Bush is asking for Iraq. He dodged the issue, stating that he did not cause it, so he did not want to talk about it. This is not the way a future President should present himself.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[clar]

19. It's my post, I can whine if I want to

Actually, I don't think I was whining. I was expressing some misgivings. It may not have been the most eloquent post, but it can't be categorized as mere whining.

[WilliamPitt]

23. "I was expressing some misgivings"

How dare you!! Whiner!!!

:)

I thought it was a thoughtful post. Never mind this crap.

[clar]

29. LOL

or at least a slight smile. Thanks Will. The crap amuses me more than it troubles me. It's kind of interesting to see the responses.

[haymaker]

37. Here a response for you,

Please, please don't go back to the undecided column. Oh, god, NOOOOOO! Not the undecided column. Bush will win for sure if you do. OK, if you won't re-enter the undecided column, I promise to pretend like it matters.

[WilliamPitt]

41. Who peed in your Wheaties today?

I'll bet a million bucks you don't speak to people like this when you have to face them.

[knight_of_the_star]

113. That was clever

I've never heard THAT remark to refer to someone being pissed before. Very clever. Can I use it?

[bearfartinthewoods]

63. ignore the attacks.....

sometimes some people forget that this is a discussion board which means we get to discuss things.

[Octafish]

105. Are all your posts attacks?

The way you slam everyone who thinks Dean's shit stinks reminds me of the people who see things in terms of TV or not TV.

FYI: clar is a Dean supporter. The poster lives in Vermont. Check out this thread from P&C (Politics and Campaigns, for the feeble-minded) where clar explains why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=23393&mesg_id=23393

PS: DOn't worry, haymaker. I won't hit the "Alert" button on you. Your own words are proof of your "Democratic" perspective.

[StandWatie]

2. I'm somewhat more hopeful

So far he is running mostly on people money, he just might feel it's necessary to dance with who he came with and if elected would remember who his backers were.

[Spoon]

3. I thought your subject line was a quote from Dean for a second.

EOM

[Starpass]

5. Heard a Democratic Strategist on CNN today

He said Howard's appeal was to a certain group of people who felt passionate about opposing the war, etc. However, now is when people are looking for answers in handling the problem over there and the world situation in general. He said in this regard, Howard is not ready for "prime time".

[DemLikr]

11. Isn't that an argument easily rebutted though?

I mean, all Dean's supporters have to say is "yeah, well, this administration claimed to be ready for prime time, it claimed the grownups were in charge, and look where we are now."

Any one of the Dem candidates is more ready NOW for "prime time" than Shrub will ever be.

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. but, we still get to ask which one of our candidates is most ready now.

a cynical person might note that dragging bush into an arguement in this way could be an attempt to distract from the issue at hand.

[chimpymustgo]

12. Dean's big fat lie last night should have his supporters rethinking him.

That was such an outrage - to LIE - about an issue that Edwards and others have made the CENTERPIECE of their campaigns.

What an ass. Dean is a liar who will say ANYTHING to get elected. I am really furious over this one.

[StopTheMorans]

21. yeah, I'll rethink him as soon as your boy Edwards

takes back his vote on the war resolution (I'm even giving you a free pass on the PATRIOT Act). They all make mistakes, Dean's is not excusable, but I'll take that over voting for the war any day (yes, I know he wasn't in Congress and so didn't have to vote) :) They all have warts, and their respective supporters deal with them unless they are of a very grievous nature (I don't think this fits, it was a f*ck-up, but not of monumental proportions, as long as he doesn't keep saying it).

[haymaker]

24. Save it.

Faux outrage. Give us a break. Maybe Dean hasn't heard Edwards speak, nobody else has either.

[clar]

25. I appreciate your passion for Edwards

but I gotta say, I think you get way too upset about Dean's real or perceived misdeeds. I'm not comfortable with some things, but Dean is not the enemy.

[poskonig]

62. We haven't heard a PEEP from Edwards in MONTHS about this.

And Edwards is going to play the victim now? Perhaps he thought his millworker poppy would fight his battles for him.

[PurityOfEssence]

86. It's the first time I noticed it

I've seen all of the debates so far, and it just jumped out at me this time. My first reaction was just how reckless a thing such an absolute pronouncement is; it's a question of judgement in speaking that first hit me. Then I was disgusted by the lack of truth and the extreme pomposity of such a statement. I mean, who the fuck does he think he is, a SURGEON?!

Your "expecting daddy to take care of it" line is not just unwarranted, it's unfounded. Are you deliberately using the word "poppy" to draw some parallel with Bush Sr., or is this just sloppiness? That's a highly-charged word around these parts, if'n ya didn't know...

It seems perfectly reasonable that if this is the first time that line was used with such resounding prominence it would be attacked; if it has been used before and repeated, it is necessary to not let it slip. Perhaps he was being gentlemanly about it before.

[DemBones DemBones]

110. Does Dean's poppy being a Dean at Dean Witter count for more

than Edwards's poppy being a mill worker, or did you have something else in mind?

[tjdee]

117. Smith Barney, Smith Barney, LOL!

And what an asinine thing to say about Edwards' mill working father (not you).

Does EVERY Dean criticism have to turn into attacking of the messenger?

[markus]

14. And Bush is?

There isn't a single candidate out there with the sort of real vision or foriegn policy expertise to clean up the mess were in.

Unless the guy's on Clark's payroll, I don't understand his comment. Lieberman's a slave to AIPIC. I don't see where any of the other have particular foriegn policy bona fides.

What was his point, I wonder?

[diamondsoul]

26. "There isn't a single candidate out there...

with the sort of real vision or foriegn policy expertise to clean up the mess were in."

Wrong. You need to do some looking into Kucinich's foreign relations experience. It isn't widely publicized but it IS vast. I'll come back after I do a bit of hunting for the info and links, but I did want to reject the dismissal of Kucinich with regards to foreign policy and vision.

[chimpymustgo]

35. Dean has clawed his way to the top by scratching and kicking

and lying about the other candidates. He is cravenly political. It's laughable that he's calling himself a straightshooter.

This is the same guy who, when asked about whether the Confederate flag should fly over SC - got that deer in the headlights look, mumbled a bit, and said "It's a state issue."

What a load. Edwards, Kerry, Gephardt - everybody else took a moral stand. Though perhaps Howard "would you like syrup with those waffles" Dean has...

evolved. Again.

[StopTheMorans]

40. what is it with you and Dean?

he showed leadership when he opposed the war that now a full 45% of Americans believe was wrong (and the number is growing monthly). What did Edwards do? Enable, that's what. I like Edwards, but you really should stop the pettiness, it's irritating, and only alienates people (like me) from taking a real look at your positions. When is Edwards going to make his move, btw:)?

[Cha]

61. kerry edwards and gephardt did Not take a moral stand when

they voted to give chimpy the power to do the invasion at his "own descretion" and that's what counts with me.

[DemBones DemBones]

111. So Dean said the same thing Bush did on the Confederate flag

issue? I hadn't heard that. Have you got a link? Was it in the debate last night?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Kerry is light years ahead of Dean in this regard

the comparison, to put it most charitably, is unfavorable.

[haymaker]

28. Kerry has done NOTHING

that is any different. Sure, NOW he is talking about the war and the patriot act and the 87 billion, which he will surely vote for, but when the chips were down, he folded like a card table.

He could have made a stand back then, but he didn't. He could be the front-runner himself now, but he caved. Way to little, way too late.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

54. Wow, So Kerry's career began Oct. 2002?

whatever....:shrug:

[haymaker]

20. Jesus, another one.

Who gives a fuck what some asswipe thinks about whether Dean is ready based on one question.

It's enough to make one puke.

Go find us some other nimrod to give us his opinion why Dean is "not ready", for fuck's sake. We haven't had enough of that around here. Give us some more. We haven't left DU yet.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. In the spirit of your responses

DEAN SUCKS.

Not really, but come on, people are allowed to dislike him.

[haymaker]

39. Sure they are, and I'm allowed

to tell them that their petty little grievances are complete whining, suspect, bullshit.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Cha]

65. I find haymaker's passion as a Dean supporter poignant.

And I can see why he/she would get so upset with all the vitrol around here concerning our candidate.

I've seen some posts by supporters of other candidates that make his/her's look tame!

So haymaker's reaction is not so unique!

[clar]

74. You've always struck me as a passionate

but reasonable person. I don't understand how you can defend Haymaker's vitriol, and just because others do (and I know they do) doesn't make it OK.

[Woodstock]

82. I can understand haymaker's frustration

That is what you are seeing.

It gets tiring seeing an endless parade of criticism for the same guy. And yes, there are criticism threads for the others, but no where near this many.

What I'd love to see is more threads pushing people's candidates. Tell me why Kerry is the one. Tell me why Kucinich is the one. I've got it down pat why you guys feel you have "have reservations" "are disenchanted" "your enthusiasm is waning" yadda yadda yadda about Dean. So why not tell me why your guy is better.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

27. This is silly

People looking for a candidate who passionately opposed the war -- as their main issue -- are largely for Kucinich, in my opinion. This is what first drew me to Kucinich, in fact; he was the most vocal about the war and why it was wrong. And that whole Dept. of Peace thing.

I leaned toward Dean for many other reasons; his opposition to the war is important to me, but not the only reason I support him.

As for "handling the problem over there", jeez, Dean has as good of any idea as any of them how to get us out of this damn mess. You can bet it will be a whole lot messier by the time our new president takes over.

[chadm]

30. I agree

I wanted to like him, but everything I see him or hear him speak I just don't. He doesn't come across as trustworthy, likeable, smart, or even honest, in my opinion.

[GreenArrow]

67. Trust me, I'm a doctor

Doctor knows best.

Nurse, you can shut up.

[Woodstock]

84. Fine, then don't support him

Sounds pretty simple to me.

[I Lean Left]

103. That depends

on whether you feel we should just get out of Iraq, or we have to finish what we started (even if you didn't agree about going). A sizable percentage will feel we have to finish, and for that they're going to want to see more.

I think Dean started to talk about that last night. I think the hard-core anti-war will go to DK anyway.

[Brucey]

8. No one is perfect, no one can please everyone.

Dean may not be perfect in every way, but he broke the mold and made lots of ground early in the campaign, and we are thankful to him for that. I will support anyone who gets the nomination because I think Bush is so bad. We've got to win this thing, we can't equivocate over every detail. I like Dean because early on Rove and company laughingly said they wanted to run against him. I want them to get their wish, and pack their bags. But if it's Kerry, that's fine, just so he can beat Stumphead. Joe is last choice, of course, but he'll never be on the ticket. Gephardt, IMHO, has the least chance of winning, but I will be sending him money, marching in the streets, writing letters, and going door to door if he is the nominee. There's a long way to go. Let's stick together.

[idontwantaname]

13. dont forget KUCINICH...!

YEAH!

[MoonAndSun]

34. Brucey is right on, once the nominee is picked, we must all come

together.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. We will.

Happens every election.

[ulysses]

16. fwiw - just bear in mind

that we're not going to make up the ground we've lost over the last twenty years in one or even two administrations.

Dean won't - can't - be the savior of the Democratic Party and the nation. He *can* be a start.

[diamondsoul]

17. Not to offend Dean supporters, but I say Good!

Not because I want you to back Kucinich, but because I think it's a good thing for you to question Dean's actions. I think it's important that we ALL do that no matter who we support. Don't just sweep aside or dismiss something that bothers you about your chosen candidate. Question them on it! Force them to answer to US because we're the ones they have to represent.

Clar, that's the healthiest post I've seen from a Dean supporter in weeks.

There are a lot who want to excuse or defend the comment that Edwards objected to, and that to me is appalling. He outright stood there and stated a falsehood to the whole of America. Even if he thought it was truthful, that was one HELL of a leap to conclusion he made. How would he know if he's the only one to discuss race with white audiences? Does he attend every other candidates appearances? Hardly. He had to know it was false and that makes it a lie.

[clar]

43. Thanks,

I think there are quite a few Dean supporters who haven't abandoned all reason, and there are definitely supporters of other candidates who go overboard in their zealous support of their favored candidate.
It's just that there are so many Dean supporters.

[Eloriel]

114. No, FALSE makes it an untruth

LIE means it was intentional, which you can't know.

Eloriel

[gully]

22. I don't think Dean flip flopped...

I've followed him closely and when these rumors surface about him changing positions, I research. I have not found Howard Dean to be the flip flopper others claim he is... He's prudent, and at one time said he is willing to change his mind based on fact, not on polls. So what? I find him refreshing, and his open mind a plus.

Deandefense.org

[VermontDem2004]

31. What does being in a small state have to do with anything

it is about equally the same, the bigger the state the more money you have to work with but you have more people to work with, the smaller the state the lower the population but you have less money to work with. His line that you are referring to is that a small state which is 26th in income which can afford his health care plan and balance budgets at the same time, he is referring to why can't the biggest country which is #1 in income in the entire world adobt his health care plan and balance budgets. You must not be much of a Dean supporter if you do not know what he is trying to say.

[clar]

47. I'm enough of a supporter

to have voted for him 5 times. And as a Vermonter, I think I have a better understanding of who Dean is than most folks. BTW, I don't think problems/solutions follow a linear trajectory, and yes I think it's simplistic to imply that they do. Having said that, I'll freely admit that I understand that campaigns can't afford too much complexity or subtlety.

[VermontDem2004]

52. not really

if understand the basis of economics handling the budget in a small scale and a large scale are very much the same. On a small scale you don't get as much money but you don't have as much needs to fill as a larger state, but you also can't spend a whole lot of money because you have to end up with a balanced budget at the end of the year. It would be hella easy to balance the budget in a small state if you were getting as much income as a larger state. In a larger state you get more money but you also have to fill the needs of the people and come back with a balanced budget. It is very hard to explain, I hope you got the point.

[clar]

79. That was both condescending

and a poor argument. You're wrong, it's not the same. I may, for example, be quite capable of managing a bookstore, does that qualify me to run Borders?

[VermontDem2004]

83. You gave me a very poor response

and you clearly missed the point. If you are able to manage a bookstore and turn in a profit you are much about to manage a larger bookstore.

Look at it this way, you have a small population but the needs to the people need to be meant but not in the same way as a much larger population. You have large population amounts of income flowing in you have absolutely no problem meeting the needs of the people and balancing the budget. Now in a large populated area you have more income flowing in but the needs of the people need to be meant in a much higher scale then a small population so you cannot spend to much money but you must be able to meet the needs of the people and balance the budget.

Now a bookstore, in a small somewhat unknown bookstore you don't have as much customers coming in like a larger bookstore so you don't have the money flowing like you would owning a larger bookstore, but you have enough money to buy books, magazines, advertising, stuff a bookstore would have. If you save enough money you can buy a larger bookstore and buy more supplies and more advertising venues and you will see more money flowing in. I took an economics course for half a semester, I am right, maybe you should study economics.

[DemBones DemBones]

112. This is absolutely priceless!

"I took an economics course for half a semester, I am right, maybe you should study economics."

Boy, I'm not messing with anybody who took an entire half a semester of economics!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Cha]

85. I read Vermont's post and I don't think she was trying to be

"condescending"...and yes I think you could run "borders" with the experience of a smaller book store".

[VermontDem2004]

91. She!?!?!

perhaps you might want to click on my profile

[dean4america]

32. well...

my enthusiasm is growing :)

[Woodstock]

88. MINE TOO!!!

:)

[uptohere]

33. that was the danger he accepted by starting too early

it got him noticed but it also boxed him in.

[benfro25]

38. the real dean

i think this article has some legitimate criticism that enlightened me a little about Dean. what do you think?

Presidential candidate Howard Dean styles himself as the representative of the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party," and rakes in money from attacks by the right- wing Democratic Leadership Council—the same DLC which Dean himself praised as, "At the beginning ... very good." Dr. Dean also describes himself as "a fan of the HMOs." He admits he was a strong supporter of NAFTA in 1995—although you would never guess it from his response to the "free trade" question on the AFL-CIO's website candidate questionnaire. Dr. Dean was the leading proponent of electricity deregulation in Vermont—the same policy which bankrupted California—and Dean, unlike others who have wised up, is still all for deregulation. The documentation below shows he's good at lying about these positions. He wants energy independence from oil-producing nations—by increasing wind and solar power to 15% of the U.S. energy capacity by 2010, and conservation.

It is no surprise when Dean explains that Jimmy Carter is his role model. One-term President Carter destroyed what productive capacity remained in the U.S. economy with deregulation, anti-nuclear hysteria, and 20% interest rates. The other President whom Dean cites most frequently is Harry Truman, the small man who wrecked the great Franklin Roosevelt's post-war vision for winning the peace, ending colonialism, and economic development for all nations.

Where does Howard Dean stand on the life and death question of the day, dumping Vice-President Dick Cheney? Dean has failed to call for Vice-President Cheney's resignation, despite the clear, published evidence that it was Cheney who demanded intelligence be shaped to launch a war on Iraq. And now Dean, falsely portrayed as the only candidate to oppose that war, is already giving credence to the next wars being planned by the same Cheney cabal of Leo Strauss followers. Dean told The Forward, "The United States has to ... take a much harder line on Iran and Saudi Arabia because they're funding terrorism," He has spoken of "the very real nuclear threats emerging in North Korea and Iran." In fact, it is Cheney and his cabal who are the threats, and the solution is to force them out now.

Howard Brush Dean, III, is the "proud patrician product of Park Avenue and 85th Street, the son, grandson, and great- grandson of investment bankers," Meryl Gordon wrote in his New York magazine feature, "The Unlikely Rise of Howard Dean." The Dean family summered at the Hamptons and belonged to the exclusive Maidstone Club, while Dean attended private schools, and then Yale University. Dean was a freshman when George W. Bush was a senior at Yale. There is a family connection: Bush's grandmother was a bridesmaid at the wedding of Dean's grandmother. Although an "avid outdoorsman," Dean was classified 1-Y by his draft board during the Vietnam War. After graduating from Yale as a political science major, Dean worked on Wall Street before deciding to become a doctor and enrolling at Albert Einstein Medical School. Dean and his physician wife, Judith Steinberg, moved from New York to Vermont in 1978, where Dean ran successfully for state representative in 1982, and lieutenant governor in 1986. He became governor when Republican incumbent Robert Snelling died of a heart attack in 1991.

Dean pronounced himself "a fan of HMOs," in an interview in Medscape with Christopher Gearon. As the "best aspects" of managed care, Dean cites: "ot having hassles over billing payments, since you have capitated payments up front. The other positive aspect is the notion that there is a single payment, and doctors—at least in the better health plans—are left to their best judgment ... First of all, I think it's very important to have gatekeepers. Too many people can go to their specialists in fee for service, when a specialist is not appropriate ... does definitely decrease use of the emergency room." Managed care "has in fact, begun to squeeze out some of the waste in the health care system" and "begun the process in the medical community to begin questioning some of the prescribing and practice habits that drive costs up."

Consumers should not be allowed to sue HMOs, but be limited to arbitration, Dean believes. For doctors who object to far-away lay supervisors telling them how to treat patients, Dean advocates behavior modification: "Send a check to those who meet the practice profile and demonstrate appropriate pharmaceutical prescribing habits that are cost-effective; those whose practices are not as cost-effective and up-to-date in terms of their methodology don't get a check."

Dean has boasted that 95.8% of all Vermont children had medical insurance when he left office. Sounds impressive, but, in fact, the first survey taken after Dean assumed office (by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation in 1993) found that 93.2% were already insured, with an error rate of plus-or-minus 1%.

Howard Dean, Then and Now
On Fair Trade/North American Free Trade Agreement:

NOW (AFL-CIO Questionnaire to candidates, posted on www.aflcio.org):

Q: What will you do to ensure that global trade and international economic development promote workers' rights, good jobs and workers' well-being?

Dean: I support fair trade. I would not negotiate trade agreements that do not include meaningful labor, environmental, and human rights protections. I would not pursue trade policies that undermine important U.S. laws and regulations, especially those that protect American workers. I will vigorously enforce anti-dumping laws.

THEN: (A Conversation with Howard Dean, with Moderator Joe Klein, at the John F. Kennedy Library and Foundation, March 26, 2003, at www.jfklibrary.org):

Moderator Joe Klein: Now, let's move on to one last area ... trade. You were on record in '95, and I think for many years after, as being a very strong supporter of NAFTA. And, in fact, it has had very positive economic impacts on the northern border. However, I saw you in Iowa in October, and you said fair trade is more important than free trade. And I heard you speak against NAFTA at that point. What caused you to change your mind about it? And in general, how do you feel about the notion of free trade?

Dean: I haven't spoken against NAFTA, but your quotes are right. NAFTA was a big benefit to Vermont. We got—

Klein: I've got to say, the union audience I saw you saying that to, thought you were speaking against NAFTA.

Dean: I still think NAFTA was a a good thing. I think the President did the right thing. But the problem is, now, 10 years into NAFTA ... e should go back and tell the WTO that "you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards..."

On Cutting Social Security to Balance the Budget

NOW:

Dean: "I go back and forth on ... I'm not ever going to cut social security benefits ... Maybe you look at the retirement age going to 68. Maybe you increase the amount that get payroll tax—I'm not in favor of cutting benefits. I think that's a big problem.

THEN ("Meet the Press" Interview with Gov. Howard Dean, June 22, 2003, and Moderator Tim Russert):

Inteviewer Tim Russert: Well, in 1995, when you were advocating that position , you were asked how you would balance that budget if we had a Constitutional amendment ... and this is what Howard Dean said: "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. It would be tough, but we could do it."

[Starpass]

46. benfro--and THAT's WHY Dean scares me as much as Bush

and the republicans (particularly your last paragraph) and I do not feel that way about any of the other 8 running for office. I'm scared that this guy would just finish the job Bush is doing to all of us. I don't need this; I really don't.

[blm]

55. That's the real Dean.

Thanks for your post.

[benfro25]

58. guess what

the funny thing is i pulled that from Lyndon LaRouche's website.
that conspiracy theorist crackpot is apparently very adept at pointing out contradictions and hidden agendas in his opponents' platforms

[blm]

59. He has good book on Sun Myung Moon, too.

And I do appreciate his vigilance on the Moonies.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

78. That's two.

:think:

[TLM]

73. Not funny at all considering what a hack hit piece it is...

"the funny thing is i pulled that from Lyndon LaRouche's website"


Gosh, imagine that a hit piece filled with half quotes, convenient rephrasing, and attacks on guys like Jimmy Carter came from that nut bag LaRouche's site.

When you're digging up attacks on Dean at LaRouche's site, you're not scraping the bottom of the barrel, you've already gone through the bottom of the barrel and are digging a hole in the mud.

Amazing who suddenly becomes credible in the fevered frenzy to attack Dean, but I guess the Dean bashers will take what they can get.

[PurityOfEssence]

93. Is that why Dean made that snotty crack about LaRouche last night?

You can hear it very obviously in the wide shot when someone says: "Where is LaRouche?"

Dean responds, chuckling: "Probably in jail."

To me, as I've already posted elsewhere today, another example of derisive and dismissive personal humor that never sat well with me.

[E_Zapata]

95. Dean really said that?

Is that a rumor? Or did a lot of people hear that?

That's Dubya's style of petulance.

It is strange how much in common Dean and Junior have.

Dean quite drinking because he didn't like the way he was when he drank. 1 week after he got married. Wonder what happened on the honeymoon?

Are we in for another dry drunk? But this time, a guy with short man's syndrome?

The guy played football. Football. The next year he gets a medical deferrment because his health wouldn't allow him to run long distances. He goes skiing for an entire winter after that? I don't think he was on the bunny hill skiing, was he?

Dean lost a sibling and, according to Dean, is still pretty broken up about it. (Jr. losing his sister no doubt impacted Jr.). Problem is: it was Dean's little brother who was killed during Vietnam in Laos. I would guess there is a guilt factor (not rational, though) that if Dean had gone to VN, maybe he brother wouldn't have had to die.

And Bush Jr. and Dean are both from NE banking money.

Both Yalies.

They are so much alike - no wonder Dean can call Bush on his shit.

[PurityOfEssence]

97. It's VERY obvious on the tape, and just as I characterized it

Yes, your points are very well taken. There's a feeling of privilege about this man; he now deserves to have no rebuking from anyone. The structural source of humor is often based on derision and dominance, and those are warning signs.

The last thing we need as a nation is another autocrat telling us what's good for us. When he said recently that he'd go to the world community to talk with them and engage them because that's his style, I almost laughed. I smell a rat. Maybe he'd be good overall and really would be a team player, but my instincts are on edge. Having hired and cast many people over the years, I'm pretty decent at assessing personalities, and this one is troublesome to me. It's one thing to be forthright; it's another to continually make sharp and stinging denunciations of people, often with thin facts or lumping different individuals together to tar them all with the guilt of the few. That's disturbing.

Personality is not everything, but it's a lot.

[tjdee]

100. I heard it.

And thought "What a smartass". That's his enlightened contribution.

[E_Zapata]

94. Hey - what's not to love about all that?

(if you are a staunch republican, that is)

[CMT]

42. Clar, you are entitled to your views and don't let anyone

stop you. I almost supported Kerry way back when Gore got out. Then he voted for the war and has been inconsistent on it since. Despite a generally liberal record I felt I couldn't support Kerry--so I read more about Dean who isn't perfect and lord knows he doesn't share my position on guns but overall I think the man is a breath of fresh air.
There is a lot of time to go until the first votes and people are entitled to change their minds or air there misgivings. I hope you stick with Dean, but if you don't it is because you have done an honest reappraisal and that is your right.

[clar]

50. Thank you

I dig civility and graciousness (Is that a word?) and thoughtfulness.
You exhibited all of those in your post. I appreciate it, not just personally, but because those qualities are essential to community. Isn't that something we all want?

[CMT]

51. it sure is

and it is something we need more of here. The bottom line is to get rid of Bush. I know whoever I support or you support in the end we will be united.

[Wetzelbill]

44. Dean would get my vote no matter what

were he to get the Demo nomination. Dean has been on fire, it's only natural some people who jumped on the train in excitement might lose a little steam somewhere along the way. It is unclear whether he can keep up the movement until the big dog primaries come around. I like the idea of questioning and searching. In the end, it gives a voter more conviction to search and learn about all the candidates and finally settle on who they like the best. Personally, I like much of what all of the candidates say. My belief is they are all going to set the bar for each other. Dean and Dennis have always been outspoken about Bush and the war, now the others are catching on and Shrub is getting hammered daily. I love these guys/girl. DK has my vote, but I'm pumped about the whole lot of candidates and all of their potential. I even don't mind Lieberman all that much when I consider the Neo-Con alternative.

[WindBreak]

48. Dean is in over his head.

It is going to be an "establishment" candidate. Kerry, Gephardt, Liebermen. My money is on Kerry with Gephardt as veep, maybe Edwards.

[stickdog]

57. My enthusiam for establishment candidates has waned. (NT)

[Eloriel]

115. My contempt for

establishment candidates has grown. Dean has spoiled me BIG time. I basically can't see myself going back. I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK, and some of the people I want it back from are running for President.

Eloriel

[helleborient]

49. And Bill Clinton was graceful when his campaign began?

He was a governor of a small state...and was dealing with "bimbo eruptions" and Hillary was on 60 minutes with her "I'm no Tammy Wynette" speech...this was graceful and "ready for prime time"?

If I went back in time I would probably think Bill Clinton was not nearly so ready for prime time as most all of these candidates...that's why they work on honing their image over time.

Who among the candidates is "ready for prime time"?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. I think it is unavoidable that candidates will change their mind or

clarify issues from time to time. I think many of the issues they address are more complex than a sentence or two on the campaign trail will allow.

Clinton came from a very small state and was able to manage the country to prosperity so that doesn't really concern me. Bush comes from a large state and has done the opposite.

I have no linear response to the I/P conflict so I cannot address that...granted AIPIC is a political force but they are promoting their views on an issue America is GOING to have a policy about. I trust Dean far more than Bush on this issue.

So far, he has done an excellent job of energizing folks that would not commit. He has gotten the Dem campaign going early to his credit which will help us in the long run.

For that, he deserves my respect.

Now, if he were to nominate many of the DU'ers in his camp to his cabinet, that might cause me some concern but the likelihood is nil. They ruin him for me much the same way some evangelicals ruin Jesus Christ for many reasonable people.

[clar]

80. Now that really did

make me LOL

[stickdog]

56. My enthusiam for Dean-bashing is waning.

It's pretty lame when no better alternative is even mentioned.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

60. "I may go back to undecided."

To go back to undecided
or not to go back to undecided...

[w4rma]

64. This election isn't going to be one big rally. It's going to be hard work

I haven't seen any equivocation on any issues. If he can raise enough money to pass the $45 million limit for campaign finance that makes me want to back him even more. We might be able to get a Congressional majority back with that kind of fundraising.

On I/P, expect him to deal with this much like President Bill Clinton. Clinton was supportive of Barok's policies over Sharon's and supported Barok over Sharon in the election.

Both Clinton and Carter were from small states. Reagan and Bush were from large states.

If you want him to keep speaking out then folks need to strongly back him, IMHO.

[bearfartinthewoods]

92. how is it possible to declare no waffling and then go to campaign

financing in the next paragraph?

[gully]

66. When did you 'support' Dean?

I know you've defended him on certain issues, but I thought you were un-decided?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=23188#23220

Perhaps being 'enthused' does not make one a supporter, but I mis-understood your OP then, I guess?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

71. Maybe he was enthused about being undecided. n/t

[kwolf68]

68. Dean Done

I'm tired of this guy. So many think hes the 2nd coming of JFK, Truman or FDR...He's just another in the long list of ultra-politicians who is on every side of every issue.

For all the anti-war pablum we hear about Dean, he rebutted Dennis Kucinich's idea to cut Pentagon Spending during a town hall debate in Iowa and now Mr. Anti-War himself rejects the idea we need to bring the troops home.

For you people who are all about "the war" and where a candidate stands, there is only one candidate worth a crap and this nation of nitwits won't elect him. He goes by the name Dennis.

[JohnKleeb]

72. Thanks for mentioning Dennis

Another thing about Dennis I think we should acknowledge especially if the war is our issue at hand, Congressman Kucinich worked hard to get people in the house to vote against the war resolution and above all although a congressman he spoke at an anti war rally. I am pretty sure he has been against the idea ever since Bush started talking about it. Kucinich I truly admire him, for doing whats right, and also proving the American dream does work, Dennis grew up in a poor household that often times wasnt a house at all but a car yet hes the guy who first ran for politics at 21 and first won at 23. Theres something magical about Dennis J Kucinich, and I just wish more could see that.

[TLM]

77. Kucinich is behind Dean because Kucinich only seems to appeal

to a very small out of touch group that is a minority even within the left.

"For all the anti-war pablum we hear about Dean, he rebutted Dennis Kucinich's idea to cut Pentagon Spending during a town hall debate in Iowa "

As he should. Dean has not ruled out cuts, but simply refused to make proclamation about cutting X percent from the pentagon, without first looking at the numbers to see if we can do so safely.

Dean's position is based on reason, not zealotry. Ask DK what he is going to cut that %15 out of and suddenly he has no real answers.



"and now Mr. Anti-War himself rejects the idea we need to bring the troops home."

Bullshit. Dean has said and continues to say we need to phase the US out and bring the UN in, but we can not abandon Iraq as DK would do, because that will allow the country to fall into the hands of the fundamentalists and extremists.

[JohnKleeb]

81. Gee you ought to mock

Out of touch? excuse fucking me I am not out of touch. On those cuts I am pretty sure he has talked about the nuclear weapons and the like? tell me you think those are needed. Dont call me out of touch, you know I dont want you to support my candiate but hell try to at least respect where we were are coming from jeez. BTW I bet before your guy's campaign set off they called your people out of touch. BTW he appeals to labor, anti death penalty people, and etc. Please dont call us out of touch again. I know you were being defensive and I realize thats hard not to do but out of touch? I think I will as an opponent of the war have respect for this man.

[blm]

87. Kucinich can start cutting the budget

with the same plan that Kerry has. Cut out the tactical nuke program and Star Wars. That should be a good chunk of change.

[JohnKleeb]

90. part of his plan blm

That bushite Kerry ;) wants to cut em too and good for him. All serious. I do not appreciate being called out of touch one bit.

[diamondsoul]

108. Total balogna, got some bread to go with it maybe?

"to a very small out of touch group that is a minority even within the left."

You'd be mistaken, by a very long way. Most of Kucinich's supporters are the farthest thing from "out of touch". We know what's going on and we're fed up with it, ALL of it. People like you claim to be sick of it and then point fingers at the one guy calling for fundamnetal change, and accuse us of being out of touch. I am at this moment, MORE informed about politics and the state of the country and world than I have ever been before, and it's because of Dennis J. Kucinich.

"Dean's position is based on reason, not zealotry. Ask DK what he is going to cut that %15 out of and suddenly he has no real answers."

Nonsense. Kucinich has said repeatedly that we don't need to be developing this pathetic "Star Wars" program, nor do we need nuclear weapons. We absolutely do NOT need to be developing any weaponry to be deployed in space, period. Now given that he's on the Ways and Means Comittee, you don't suppose that some of the programs he'd cut can't be openly discussed at this point do you? Or gee, how about removing that missing trillion from the Pentagon budget and see how fast they can suddenly account for it. If you don't think there is plenty of room to cut 15% out of the DoD budget, I'd have to suggest YOU might be the one who is "out of touch".

"Bullshit. Dean has said and continues to say we need to phase the US out and bring the UN in, but we can not abandon Iraq as DK would do, because that will allow the country to fall into the hands of the fundamentalists and extremists."

Once more for the record, Kucinich HAS NEVER ADVOCATED "abandoning" Iraq. He will NOT send more US soldiers into harms way for a war that should never have begun at all. He will not continue to thumb his nose at the millions who opposed it, the Iraqi people who now despise their "liberators" or the United Nations. What he WILL do is walk into the UN with some previous standing with the members of the UN under his belt, and some previous negotiating experience, and convince them to take over the reconstruction of Iraq for the good and the peace of the entire region. What's more he will do so without compromising the needs of the American People.

[AnAmerican]

109. Correction time

Dennis wants the US out, the UN in....hardly "abandoning Iraq."

Dennis has mentioned in speeches various (and specific) weapons systems that he would press for cutting...hardly "no real answers".

If you took the time too actually read DK's paltform you would not so quickly marginalize him as you have attempted to do here.

Nice try but no cigar.

[Julien Sorel]

69. Apostate!

Thou shalt be struck down by a bolt of lightning hurled by a wrathful Dean! Hell hath no fury like a Dean scorned!

[gully]

89. That's because DEAN is bashed 'daily' and it's tiresome. n/t

[Pepperbelly]

101. as someone whose candidate has been ...

bashed and bashed and bashed here, I find it extremely amusing when I see posters wearing the same avatar as most of the ones bashing of my favorite cry about bashing.

And yes, it is tiresome. Perhaps you should speak to some of your allies as well.

[Pepperbelly]

76. Gee! Is Dean support a 'blood in, blood out' kind thing?

:crazy:

[deutsey]

96. Dean: My Enthusiasm is Growing

I met him yesterday and saw him speak at a breakfast meeting in DC (the one where he announced afterward the news about six DC City Council members or so endorsing him).

He was very relaxed, poised, confident, funny (he did a hilarious impersonation of James Carville), honest (even when he was saying something he knew a few in the crowd might not like, e.g., his gun control position), and very articulate and passionate about what he wants to do to make 1600 Pennsylania Avenue a Shrub-less White House.

If I had any doubts about supporting Dean, they all vanished after I this experience.

[chimpymustgo]

98. Stick a fork in Howard the Duck.

He cannot bear the slightest of scrutiny. Lies, lies, and damn lies. What a joke.

[Forkboy]

104. How's Edwards doing?

[ScreamingMeemie]

106. can we stop the stupid posts, please?

[gully]

99. Wow, it would be good for you to start a thread...

[KaraokeKarlton]

102. Maybe you should let him be human, clar

Dean has done so well that a lot of us who support him expect perfection from him. Being from Vermont, you know what kind of leader Dean is. You also should know that there are going to be times you aren't going to agree with him. When that happens, you just need to think back to the leadership he showed here in Vermont. Everything he does, he does it because it's what he truly feels is the best thing to do. Yeah, he's going to say a few things that he shouldn't, but that's just Dean. Thankfully, he possesses the ability to smooth things over when he does that. I trust him to always do what he thinks is best for the people, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense all the time. He's a good man. Maybe you need to turn off the tv and computer for a few days and just take a break from all the political stuff. I find I have to do that once in awhile when I get overload. You aren't whining, in my opinion...I think you just hold Dean to a higher standard than you do the others.

[Nicholas_J]

107. Dean is simply aping:

Kerrys Global Secrurity speech of January, 2003:

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state. Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace. I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process. American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism. When I visited the region last year, in meetings with King Abdullah of Jordan, President Mubarak of Egypt, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, it became clear that September 11th had changed the imperatives of these countries. The Bush Administration has missed an opportunity to enlist much greater support in the peace process and needs to focus on this urgent priority- now.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030123-kerry01.htm

But he simply flubbed it. His understnding of international affairs is so limited that he could not get out what Kerry stated clearly and succinctly in January.

All Dean knows is that he wants to say whatever whover he is trying to get to vote for him to hear.

This does not indicate any deep thinking on Deans part.

[suzeli]

116. Enthusiasm is for Amateurs

Enthusiasm blinds you to the facts.  Sure, it's fun, but it
doesn't put your guy into the White House.  Do you think
Smirk's Pioneers are enthusiastic?  Hell, no!  They write
their checks, lean on their business associates, employees and
golf buddies to do likewise, and get on with more important
things.  Enthusiasm is for people with too much time on their
hands.

Enthusiastic people get disillusioned if their guy loses. 
They've invested so much of themselves in him that they take
their ball and go home.  The GOPs didn't get where they are
today by staying home in a funk when Clinton beat their guy. 
They hounded him every day of his administration, and kept
looking for someone who could win.

All you need to ask yourself is whether Dean is most likely to
beat Smirk next year.  If you think so, support him.  If not,
find someone who can.  Save the enthusiasm for your own life.

Me, I appreciate Dean for his willingness to say that Smirk
has no clothes, but I don't see how he's going to improve on
Gore's totals from 2000.  Which additional states does he plan
on winning?

[ErasureAcer]

118. I was a Dean fan many months ago as well.

I somehow looked beyond the pro-death penalty(high on my list) and supported him because he had some rousing speeches...but in the end...the guy isn't even a liberal(his words)...and when I found out how he stood on Israel/Palestine...I thought I was listening to LIEberman.

Dean is a flip-flopping p.o.s. who's only claim to fame is his anti war rhetoric...and he isn't even anti-war.

Really now...

Kucinich is the answer. www.kucinich.us

read his views on the issues. anti-death penalty. even handed I/P. Departments of peace. funding the schools preK through college, with a focus on early childhood programs....and my favotire stance of his...cutting the wasteful pentagon budget 15%...the only candidate who said he will cut the damn thing. Social programs aren't where the tax dollars are going...all the money...400 billion dollars annual(plus more thanks to Iraq) is going to the Pentagon. Really now...everyone should support Kucinich just to fucking cut our pentagon budget...it is out of control...we have no money to do anything else.

So please...go to his website, give him $10 or whatever you have laying around. Kucinich is the real deal...the media just doesn't give him any attention.