BBV: Drip...drip....drip..drip..drip.drip.drip.dripdripdripdrip

[BevHarris]

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/6739336.htm

Another day, another story.

More on the way, through my grapevine, and they are turning into a gusher.

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) - The strange case of an election tally that appears to have popped up on the Internet hours before polls closed is casting new doubts about the trustworthiness of electronic voting machines.

<snip>

Programmers say the March 2002 incident casts suspicion on any election system that depends on computers -- even the relatively low-tech optical scan, which relies on paper ballots and uses computers only to store and send data.

<snip>

March questioned why San Luis Obispo County's server connected to a Diebold server at all -- particularly if it dialed out while polls were open. He said the ``phone home'' incident could have been the work of an incompetent or malicious Diebold insider, or an outside hacker. Any astute campaign manager could have profited, he said.

[CatWoman]

1. a kick for Bev

good work

:kick:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BevHarris]

63. I love it -- a masterpiece

what are you doing with this? -- great stuff!

Bev

[hedda_foil]

2. Here's the AP link on YAHOO. Please RATE it at 5!

We need to get this to the top of Yahoo.

[Room101]

5. Link for AP?

?

[Clete]

6. No link hedda_foil.

Could you try again, please?

[Clete]

7. No link hedda_foil.

Could you try again, please?

[BevHarris]

9. HERE'S THAT LINK

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting

Rate it a "5" to kick toward top of page

[dmr]

46. Currently this is the 5th highest story

Yup, drip, drip, drip ...

[never cry wolf]

48. How do you check on that?? I don't do yahoo normally...n/t

[althecat]

56. Click Here to vote for story... Currently No. 4 on Yahoo Top Ratings...

Click Here to vote for story... Currently No. 4 on Yahoo Top Ratings...

Rate it a "5" to kick toward top of page

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting

Click here to view progress... there are two stories on 4.6 at present and one on 4.7...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index&cid=1760

[Andy_Stephenson]

78. #3 on the list

clear the cookies folks.

[never cry wolf]

81. How????.....n/t

[never cry wolf]

11. er, um, link???

great job Bev!!!!

[frank frankly]

3. kick

right on!

[Trajan]

4. Bev ....

The San Luis fiasco will be Diebold's Waterloo ...

If it can be UNEQUIVICALLY proven that THAT file was present (certified Time/Date stamp) on Diebold's site, AND it contains what is provably 'valid' interim or final results ...

Their goose is cooked ... sauted, and flambe'ed ....

Your a dream .....

[sandnsea]

13. Mobilize voters angle, I like it

"If you're at the state party headquarters and you know how the vote is going in a county, you can allocate scarce resources to the county where you're losing by a close margin," said Jim March, a computer system administrator from Milpitas who examined ballot results that ended up on a Diebold site without password protection. "This data is incredibly valuable to a campaign manager."

Excellent!

[TacticalPeek]

27. Love the way the universe arranges atoms sometimes.

These jerks' most obvious defense would be "Well, that time and date doesn't necessarily mean its really that time and date." Heehee. Likewise, "Just because it says that county and those votes, doesn't necessarily mean its really that county and those votes". I cannot say it any better, haha.

Oh wait! They've already said it!

snip

Deborah Seiler, Diebold's West Coast sales representative, said Diebold engineers may have published the results as part of a test -- possibly days, weeks or months after the county primary, regardless of the time stamp.

snip

Whoopsie!

Binary states of trillions of bits of charged, sequencing matter functioning perfectly?

Or paper?

[Bush_has_Parvo]

8. This may be the geyser we're hoping for!

Now that the AP has it, if we can just get it on the nightly news next, Diabold and all the other theives may have to pack up their little voter froud machines and go home! Congrats to all you hardworking BBVers--looks like it is finally hitting the big time!!

[Boom_cha]

10. Kudos to you, Bev

You very well may have altered the course of history by unleashing a cascade that will thwart the BBV scam. Who says one person can't make a difference?

[BevHarris]

12. And there is another geyser on the way.

Yes folks, we are now dealing in "Perry Mason Moments."

Think I'll save it. Read this, reporter said to give the next one a week. I'll keep you posted. Several more to go, folks.

(gingerly picks up gun. curls nose at the acrid smell of smoke)

[Bush_has_Parvo]

17. OMFG!! You mean--

that we could actually toss out that slithering piece of human garbage Saxby Chambliss out on his ass!?!! If you could pull that off, you deserve to be martyred!! Or a medal!! :wow:

[calimary]

37. ANYTHING that would throw out that slithering piece of human garbage

Bush, too, would be worth it! But it ABSOLUTELY applies to Saxby Chambliss! In fact, if you look up "slithering piece of human garbage" in the dictionary, I believe it's Chambliss's picture you'll see in there, too.

Although, actually, you are insulting slithering pieces of human garbage everywhere...

[eleny]

44. I would love it!

I haven't been able to get over the "election" of Saxby Chambliss - and I don't even live in Georgia. It was a disgrace!

Kudos, atta-girls and hugs -o- plenty to Bev! What a wonderful, talented and dedicated person. We are all indebted.

[TacticalPeek]

30. Sweet.

[nostamj]

14. this is a STUNNER

Perry Mason (with the witness' shoes): You claim you never met the victim. Is that correct?

Witness: Yeah, never met the guy. (Squirm.)

Perry (turning to the jury): THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN HOW THE VICTIM'S BLOOD GOT ON YOUR SHOES?

(Witness breaks down and confesses, Perry winks at Della.)

CUE MUSIC

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

on edit: 'Sqrirm' is not a wirrd

[cosmicdot]

15. kick

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting

Rate it a "5"

12 people had rated the article
4.82

[nostamj]

18. just did 4.85 now n/t

[Eloriel]

35. 4.76 with 57 votes

not bad.

Eloriel

[Robbien]

16. Just checked Google

ABC has this and it has been covered by stories in these states: KS, TX, WA, AL, FL, IN, OH, MO, and a least five papers in CA. Wired News is also running a story on it.

Drips all over the place.

[BevHarris]

21. Another wire service, another story:

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/coughlin091003.html

Newhouse News Service, a different story.

We've made the fall lineup as a mainstream news series, folks.

And then there's Miami-Dade, who now says "maybe we do need a paper trail":
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-locmachines10091003sep10,0,3756326.story?coll=orl-news-headlines

Voting machines in Dade may get printed backup
When South Florida voters cast ballots on an electronic voting machine, they are relying on technology -- and accepting on good faith -- that their votes were registered.

But for some voters, there is reason to doubt, particularly when they think of last year's disastrous primary, when thousands of votes went uncounted.

That's why Miami-Dade County commissioners will consider a measure Thursday that would order the refit of the county's 7,200 iVotronic machines with software and equipment that produces a paper printout of all votes.

[Bush_has_Parvo]

25. Gee, I didn't know you were a "gadfly", Bev!

But, the article does touch on some important points, especially the CEO of Diabold being a huge Bush* supporter.

[BevHarris]

28. Yes, Cathy Cox calls me a gadfly.

Therefore I wear the title proudly.

(Cathy Cox = intransigent Georgia Secretary of State)

[Eloriel]

40. Intransigent. Hmmmmm, I think I've got a few other words

for her.

:evilgrin:

Eloriel

[dusty64]

86. Me too.

This is great that it is finally hitting the mainstream.

[Eloriel]

39. Diebold lies

I really hate being lied to. Anyone else?

That report was based on old code, and ignored election "checks and balances" that restrict access to voting machines, said Diebold's Michelle Griggy. She said Rubin's tests were run on a PC, even though the code was designed for voting machines.

"They're never networked to anything, so they can't be hacked," Griggy said. Diebold is cooperating with Maryland's security review, she said.


Eloriel

[Zhade]

83. I want her email address.

We should all email the liars every time their lies are exposed, just so they know that we know they're lying.

No quarter for the liars and traitors to democracy.

[Bushfire]

45. Is this really true about HAVA?

"That's why Miami-Dade County commissioners will consider a measure Thursday that would order the refit of the county's 7,200 iVotronic machines with software and equipment that produces a paper printout of all votes.

The resolution is intended to bring the county into compliance with the federal Help America Vote Act, enacted shortly after the disastrous September 2002 election.

The law requires that all voting equipment have the capacity to audit election results."

My impression is that what Rush Holt's legislation HR 2239 is all about.

[RedEagle]

55. Yep

HAVA calls for a permanent paper record with audit capacity.

Election officials and vendors have been calling a print out after the election the audit trail, or the tally stored in another storage medium on the machine.

But that is redundant storage, NOT audit capacity.

The only way to get that is through a voter verified paper ballot.

[althecat]

64. At last a county that has bothered to read the law...

While the coverage on the SLO story is rather phenomenal... in many ways this is more significant. It has universal application, and could quickly lead to a cascade of counties suddenly realising that they are not in compliance with the law.

I have always been at a loss to understand how any legislature could have legislated for a system that eliminated recounts. How could that be legal?

So perhaps that is part of the reason for the stalking horse HAVA amendment.. to fix it so it says what they thought it said.

[Eloriel]

71. Al, if they pass a law essentially banning recounts

then having no recounts is LEGAL. Get it? (wink, wink) It's been working fairly well for them, actually. "Oh, you wanna recount? Good. Here, let's use the machine again."

Eloriel

[punpirate]

80. I wonder if there's anyone in Nebraska...

... who might want to ask their election officials about Nebraska law, which effectively prevents an audit trail and mandates recounts be made on the machines which originally counted the vote, what they think of Miami-Dade's resolution, and whether they think their laws are still in compliance with HAVA, as Miami-Dade interprets it.

Might be an interesting conversation....

Cheers.

[gristy]

100. What HAVA says about "audit capacity"

HAVA calls for a permanent paper record with audit capacity.

Election officials and vendors have been calling a print out after the election the audit trail, or the tally stored in another storage medium on the machine.

But that is redundant storage, NOT audit capacity.

The only way to get that is through a voter verified paper ballot.

redeagle, this is an interpretation of HAVA I have not heard before. Can you expand on this? Do you have the specific section of the law that leads you to this conclusion? Have you received any confimation of this view from others?

This could be a powerful tool/weapon in our fight, IF it's true.

[RedEagle]

104. HAVA Act

Basically, you should become a bit familiar with the HAVA Act. Google HAVA Act and look for a federal type link.

Title III covers the voting systems.

I'm only going to quote fragments here because I don't have all night to type. Go look up the act so you can see everything in context.

Sec. 301, (a), (1), (A), (i)&(ii)-
...permit the voter to verify (in a private and independent manner) the votes selected by the voter on the ballot before the ballot is cast and counted; ....proivde the voter with the opportunity (in a private and independent manner) to change the ballot or correct any error before the ballot is cast and counted (including the opportunity to correct the error through the issuance of a replacement ballot if the voter was otherwise unable to change the ballot or correct any error): and...

(2) AUDIT CAPACITY-
(A) In General.--The voting system shall produce a record with an audit capacity for such system.
(B) Manual Audit Capacity--
(i) The voting system shall produce a permanent paper record with a manual audit capacity for such system.
(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter with an opportunity to change the ballot or correct any error before the permanent paper record is produced.
(iii) The paper record produced under subparagraph (A) shall be available as an official record for any recount conducted with respect to any election in which the system is used.



iii calls for a paper record in A. That record must have an audit capacity. ii says the voter must have a chance to correct that AUDIT record. (ii does fall under the audit capacity rules) iii says the paper record is official used for recounts.

I just got a good argument that goes like this:
There must be a voter verified copy for an independent audit and also because the computer can only produce an unverified COPY of the vote and a copy cannot be an audit record. something like that.

There is also the article by an attorney, Wold, that should be somewhere on the BBV.org site, that explains audit.

[punpirate]

108. This is why the Ensign amendment...

... as modified by McConnell is a problem--it very subtly alters the relationship of audit record to the ballot. With the changes made by Ensign and McConnell, the printed tally sheet can be considered the audit record, because they fuzzed the language.

The easiest way to take this out of the hands of the courts is to amend the language further, so that there's absolutely no opportunity for confusion, intentional or otherwise: "(A)(i) Definition: The record with audit capacity (hereafter referred to as "permanent paper record") shall be the paper ballot produced by the voting machine, and which may be examined by the voter for accuracy prior to submission to the polling place."

Cheers.

[dmr]

49. This is one time I wish I still lived in Miami

I'd be at the commision meeting and have my VCR taping at the same time. Anyone who lives in Miami-Dade County and has cable can watch and/or tape the meeting - which can go on all day and well into the night. I use to watch the meetings for hours - the fur can really fly down there when there's a hot topic on the agenda!

[RedEagle]

51. Did you catch this?

"The resolution is intended to bring the county into compliance with the federal Help America Vote Act, enacted shortly after the disastrous September 2002 election.

The law requires that all voting equipment have the capacity to audit election results."


This is the FIRST time I've seen an acknowledgement that the HAVA act, which requires audit capacity, requires a voter verified paper ballot to be in compliance!

[BevHarris]

54. Isn't it interesting? They spun the meaning, now reversal of spin

back to what it was supposed to mean in the first place. What a chess game this is.

[ConsAreLiars]

74. Opening another move

based on the natural reluctance of most local election officials to have to re-do the time-money-aggravation "upgrading" when HAVAish requirements become mandatory. I get the impression that much resistance to VVPB is the "extra" work required if they don't just simply follow the easy path paved for them by D Lewis & Cohorts.

"If you approve these unauditable systems you'll have to do it all over again."

[Emboldened Chimp]

19. kick

[Skittles]

20. *KICK*

I am convinced BBV is the last resort of these thieving bastards.

[frank frankly]

23. the pharoahs wanted to bury us in their tomb

way to go, Bev!

these old dinasaur men (no offense to dinosaurs) are the last of their kind. they wanted to take us with them.

way to go, Bev!

[hunter]

22. Nope, don't know what we're talking about....

"These activists don't understand what they're looking at," Seiler said...

Heh, I'm imagining this:

Memo to: Deborah Seiler
from: Diebold Corporate Offices

Urgent! Do not talk to press. Lock doors, do not answer phone.

[BevHarris]

26. Heh heh. I imagine your imagination is a fact.

Don't you?

I also imagine this:

"Damn, anybody got a shredder? Look through your e-mails, have your delete key ready..."

[TacticalPeek]

34. "What date and time should I change this to?"

"Now, where is that list of all the disgruntled ex-employees?"

"The computer ate it."

"Oh damn! Why didn't you print it out, fool!"

[graham67]

66. Disgruntled ex-employees....

Have you all found some of those yet?

[BevHarris]

67. yup.

Been awhile since I've had conversations about "vaporware" but have had a few lately.

[graham67]

68. Heh

I should've known ;)

[Occulus]

98. which, Bev?

Or is that part of an upcoming 'surprise'? :)

[Pobeka]

24. This is great!

Programmers say ...
---

If your doctor told you you needed brain surgery to remove an obscure tumor, and you asked 100 brain surgeons and 99 out of 100 said "it can't be done, you'll die on the table", you'd be a fool to go through with the surgery.

Your doctor, in this case is Diebold and election officials. The 100 brain surgeons are the legion programmers who know better.

[Timefortruth]

42. Unless you are going to die if you don't have the surgery.

In which case you might say, what the hell?

[Pobeka]

50. So, how would you improve the analogy?

Note that in this case you aren't going to die without the surgery.

[Christian73]

31. Can someone tell me

what BBV is?

I'm still a newbie here but I went to the story and rated it a "5"

I'm also going to email it to my friends.

[DEMActivist]

32. BBV=Black Box Voting

Read all about it. There are 2 sites up on it:

http://www.blackboxvoting.com

http://www.blackboxvoting.org (activism and information arm)

[BevHarris]

33. Black Box Voting

.

[Robbien]

36. Emailing it to your friends is good.

Better yet, email it to your county clerk. I sent it to mine and also to the suburban paper here.

[calimary]

38. Welcome to DU, Christian73!

Man, we seem to be doing a lot of welcoming lately. DU has picked up lots of newbies! Welcome - glad to have you here!

[Christian73]

41. Thanks Guys and Gals

Good job you're doing Bev.

I've been on here for a couple of months but I don't post too much. I come here to find what other people like me are thinking and talking about. This has been a great resource.

I'm also open to cool Lefties for hanging out in Brooklyn, NYC. You can PM me if you're inclined.

[Zhade]

85. Hi Christian73!

Welcome to the forums!

:hi:

Black Box Voting is a deviously unConstitutional attempt to do nothing less than control the voting process and remove our right to elect our governing officials.

Dig in, it's a lot to read but it's vital to know. Glad you're on DU!

[ibegurpard]

43. Someone posted an article similar to this in LBN that ran in Houston

Chronicle. I imagine that it was the wire story others have mentioned. Why is this NOT going away if all of you who have worked on it "don't know what you're looking at?" Keep up the good fight, folks! :toast:

[RedEagle]

47. Did You Catch the Story on Windows at the Yahoo Site?

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/prevnext/prev/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_security&e=1&ncid=528

Let's see...Diebold + Windows = some sort of negative number?

[althecat]

52. Very good stuff..... the story is now rating 4.55 with over 150 votes...

Kick

[Capn Sunshine]

53. kick

things are moving fast tonite

[BevHarris]

57. Psst -- althecat -- check your PM

you'll like this one...

[althecat]

58. Click Here to vote for story... Currently No. 4 on Yahoo Top Ratings...

Click Here to vote for story... Currently No. 4 on Yahoo Top Ratings...

Rate it a "5" to kick toward top of page

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting

Click here to view progress... there are two stories on 4.6 at present and one on 4.7...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index&cid=1760

(Given that two of the stories above it at present in ratings have only been rated by a few people... someone might see an opportunity.)

[RedEagle]

59. More dripping please!

Kick!

[arcos]

61. It is #2 now!!

:D

[althecat]

62. The weird thing is that the top rating story ...

This one..
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/congress_education_dc
Actually says on the bottom of it..
Avg Rating: 2.77, 13 votes

SLO STORY Currently...
Avg Rating: 4.51, 197 votes - Your Rating: 5

[Bushfire]

60. Newshouse News prints BBV story

on edit: Dupe from earlier Bev post

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/coughlin091003.html

Having never heard of them before, it does seem like they compete with AP/UPI and other news services. Maybe this article will spread to other papers hopefully. It quotes Rush Holt, David Dill, Avi Rubin, and mentions Bev amongst others. Anybody care to comment on Newhouse News?

[grasswire]

77. newhouse news...

...owns 26 newspapers including the Portland Oregonian and the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and is also a news service covering technology, cyberspace, and other beats.

http://www.newhousenews.com/newspapers.html

[frank frankly]

65. kick

[angka]

69. bump

or should i say, drip

[4dog]

70. Wrongdoing, however they spin it. (n/t)

[althecat]

72. Votes still coming thick and fast... 4.49 on 212 votes cast...

Someone must be voting at under 5... Perhaps this is being freeped...

[BevHarris]

75. Hey Althecat -- get your New Zealand buns to the month and year

I recommended you to in PM -- or call me. We need to put our heads together on this new one. I don't think it will hold for a week.

Bev

[MoonRiver]

73. Great news, but, but, but.........

will California and/or any of the other states considering widespread use of these machines back off before the 2004 elections are fait accompli??

I only ask because our country will be permanently screwed if we don't stop this ongoing rightwing coup. :scared:

[Bushfire]

76. The movement is gaining legs

OH and MD are having an independent review as we speak using a well known defence contractor, SAIC. No conflict of interest there I assure you. Sarcasm off.

It is picking up legs though, but much work needs to be done. Feel free to join the movement, and write letters to the editors, urge your congressperson to support HR2239, call your county clerk to find out what machines your districts is using, and what are their future plans. Make as much noise as possible, and email your friends about this. Some won't care, some will. Those are the people we want to help.

[MoonRiver]

79. Good points. We don't have computerized voting machines are in my state

but, I am voicing my feelings loud and clear to all who are able to hear: HELLO, IS ANYBODY HOME!!??

Yet I have liberal relatives in Texas who are still too dense to get it. :wtf:

I'll keep trying because I CANNOT STOP. Too much is at stake.

[BevHarris]

82. I think you are mistaken -- bet you do have computerized voting

computerized voting is anything that uses a computer program to count the votes. It includes optical scan, punch card and touch screens. Almost all states have some form of computerized voting.

[MoonRiver]

84. Kansas?

n/t

[DEMActivist]

88. Johnson Cty, Kansas

Was an unmitigated disaster in 2002. It was so bad, Bob Urosevich himself flew in to solve the problems and never could figure out what went wrong.

Of course, one must ask how old Bob fixed the problems without determining the cause, but since MS Access was handy, I'm sure we can all figure out what his "fix" was can't we?

[MoonRiver]

91. Ya!

I was here then but such a newcomer I hadn't a clue. I remember being in an incredible rage that damned night. I believed the Dems had given it all away by not standing up to BFEE. On this very board I read posts expressing the same fury I felt. I now believe we were, partially, wrong. That repuke machine has penetrated so far and wide that the Borg would be jealous of it's invasive tactics. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[gristy]

87. computerized voting

computerized voting is anything that uses a computer program to count the votes. It includes optical scan, punch card and touch screens. Almost all states have some form of computerized voting.

The danger is not computerized voting per se. It is any voting system that fails to use a voter-verified ballot that cannot be altered once cast.

With proper ballot-handling procedures, paper ballots are difficult to alter once cast, and the count of votes is also difficult to corrupt (again, with multiple sets of eyes and proper procedures). And with paper ballots, corruption of the vote is difficult to accomplish by any individual or small group on any widespread scale.

With no paper ballots, fraud on a massive scale becomes possible.

[MoonRiver]

89. Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. So, a paper ballot is necessary

to stop fraud in virtually every state in this country. Maybe we should all vote absentee. I believe that would be a good solution if we can't get this issue resolved before '04.

[Bushfire]

90. Absentee votes aren't always included in the official tally

unless there is a recount. Open source coding, and voter verified ballots are the solution we need.

[MoonRiver]

92. They are not always counted!! REALLY??

OMFG!

[gristy]

96. Absentee ballots are counted in MN in each precinct.

It depends completely on the state. Here's one paragraph in the MN Election Judge Guide concerning absentee ballots:

"Election judges at the polling place receive absentee ballot envelopes through the county auditor's office or through the designated clerk's office. From the start of election day until the last mail delivery of the day, judges at the poll can "accept" absentee ballot return envelopes, remove the inner ballot envelope, and place it in the absentee ballot container. After the last mail delivery of the day, the election judges may open the inner envelopes and deposit the ballots into the ballot box with the normal election day ballots for counting after voting ends. (M.S. 203B.12, subds. 1 & 4.)"

[never cry wolf]

115. There is a problem with the language here

judges at the poll can "accept" absentee ballot

the election judges may open the inner envelopes and deposit the ballots into the ballot box

The words "can" and "may", in legal usage, to not compel the party to take that action, it implies an option. The correct word should be "shall" which means that they have to take those actions.

[gristy]

93. Voting absentee doesn't solve the problem, though

Maybe we should all vote absentee.

It is a moral action, but far too few people will take it to have an impact. It's kind of like walking to the store instead of driving (or better, going to the store in a car with a neighbor). It might reduce the total CO2 in the atmosphere, but if you're trying to solve the global warming problem, and you're trying to do it by next fall, it has virtually no effect at all.

[MoonRiver]

94. Gotta get to bed, but how can we spread the word and how do

computer challenged folks like moi do that intelligently?

[BevHarris]

95. Beg to differ: Unless you USE the paper ballots, they do no good

Most states do not have provisions for comparing the paper ballot to the machine tally. The SLO case in this thread has paper ballots -- but in California, they only spot check one-half of one percent of the votes (and none of the touch screens.) This means that if you rig an optical scan or punch card system, your chances of getting away with it are 99.5%

In some states, your chances are 100% because they do not do even a tiny spot check.

The optical scan systems are quite risky, the way the current system is set up. However, it's simple to correct the problem, simply by comparing the paper ballots against the machine.

Don't assume that optical scan systems are safe. This AP story shows one reason why we should not accept them as safe -- the safeguards (proper auditing) are not in place.

Bev

[gristy]

97. Yes, I agree.

Unless you USE the paper ballots, they do no good

The paper ballot has to be your master record. And you have to have procedures that are followed to not only ensure that this master record is not corrupted, but that the COUNTING of the votes on that master record is neither corrupted (say, by a software hack in the optical scan machine) nor bypassed (say, by a DRE machine that prints a paper "ballot", but the votes recorded on that "ballot" are not counted - only the electronic count is used).

[Eloriel]

101. From my perspective -- and I'm not the expert -- paper isn't

enough. I can still see, all too easily, where the "results" could be not outrageous enough to raise questions.

Hell, you can look at what happened in Georgia in 2002 and see exactly what I'm talking about. The Nov. 1 poll-to- Nov. 5 actual swing was 165 points for Barnes and 13 points for Cleland, and Georgia "elected" the first Republican governor in 130 years.

AND YET NO ONE VOICED ANY CONCERN ABOUT THE RESULTS, despite how shocked so many people were. At least, if anyone suspected fraud or mischief or errors, they didn't voice that in public. All the Dems just took it like good little sheep.

And with no exit polling, we've lost another check on the elections.

Paper ballots do one thing: they make it possible to do an independent recount. They do NOT prevent fraud. They MIGHT discourage fruad. Russ Holt's Bill (H.R. 2239) calls for 0.5% automatic random recounts using paper ballots. That might not be enough to do enough discouraging.

If a whole state is computerized, the "preferred results" could be spread over enough different jurisdictions to seem not all that unlikely, to call no real attention to themselves, to raise no flags. 10% or so across the board could do some serious damage and probably not seem, except in the MOST Democratic of precincts, unusual.

The longer I look at this problem the more I'm personally sure that open source code is the ONLY way to go -- along with VVPB, of course. However, I'd settle for VVPB to start with, as long as we don't give up on open source code fight. Really, though, as DEMActivist puts it so eloquently, what we've got to do is get corporations completely out of our voting processes. (She says it much better than I have.)

Eloriel

[Pobeka]

102. What if there were some measures that allowed demanded hand-recounts?

Where candidates could call for a hand recount, if the vote was either close, or defied polling numbers by a given amount? I would like to see that as well as the 0.5% automatic random recount.

[ConsAreLiars]

105. random validation checks

By randomly auditing precincts any discrepancy between hand-counts of paper ballots and machine numbers would trigger a manual recount for such races county-wide. No 0.5% trigger is needed or even relevant. That rule was based on the assumption that close races were the only kind affected by human error in counting procedures, and that counts witnessed by reps of both parties would be human-audited for accuracy, even though a small number of mistakes were still possible.

If the machines do not provide accurate results in randomly selected precincts, this is indicative of machine failure, not random human accidents, and is proof that the machine numbers are not honest.

[Pobeka]

110. But the this does not handle the fraud case

As Bev points out, if the votes were purposely altered in only a few key precincts, they would slip through the random test about 99.5% of the time. There needs to be another "threshold" event calling for manual recounts...

[FlaGranny]

113. I think that a mandatory

comparison of perhaps 10% of the paper ballots with randomly chosen voting machines, would help a lot to prevent fraud. The printed, voter verified ballots should have a code that matches them with the machine the votes were made on.

[jimmynochad]

119. Would open source solve the Georgia installation problem?

Let's assume that there is open source available for review before an election...

The way the story has been told about last minute installations of last minute changes to the software and/or ballot, then how would there be enough time for a review? If I show you a good code, insert my bad code during the final install, then hand you the good code for you to review, how much time is needed to catch the switch in time? The story about Georgia claims that procedures were not followed correctly. How would open source change the incorrect following of procedures?

People are asking me these devil's advocate questions. Any thoughts?

If I took my tin hat off for a minute. Could this wild change in voting patterns have anything to do with the fact that Georgia spent a lot of money to get voter's out to vote? Has anyone looked at the turnout data to see if 2002 was unusually high for infrequent voters. If this is so (I call the "let's see this new fangle equipment" phenomenon), then what kind of voters showed up? Is there are way to explain this. I feel that polls only get a sense of the hard core voters. I have been called a couple of times in the past for opinions but I never give them a minute of time just because I feel that most poll questions are terribly slanted. Maybe the undecided voters finally showed up? There has to be data to say either way?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

99. You activists don't understand what you're looking at!

ahh, but I am afraid we do. all too well! :hi:

[BevHarris]

106. Okay, so let's make a list of what we activists don't understand:

1) Well first of all, the Hopkins/Rice researchers didn't understand that flawed software is not the issue, it's the election procedures and security around the machines that counts.

2) Then I didn't understand that if you go in through a back door in Microsoft Access, which is configured for multiuser and allows you to rewrite pretty much everything in the vote database, "the election supervisor would know it." (I see. How?)

3) Then we don't understand, apparently, that when election procedures and security around the machine are what protects us all from the flawed software found in the Hopkins/Rice report, well:

About those procedures (can't tally the votes before the polls close) somehow went away when a vote tally at 3:31 in the afternoon appeared on a public web site

and

About that physical security (ONLY Julie Rodewald and the elections registrar are allowed access to the locked room with the GEMS computer) -- but neither of them put it on the web site, or even knew it was put on the web site, but somehow it got there anyway...

You're right. I don't understand what we're looking at: A voting system whose security is BROKEN, BROKEN and BROKEN again. What I don't understand is how this can be.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

114. I don't understand either- it's incomprehensiblity on a colossal scale

but (unfortunately) I can understand the motivations of democracy-loathing Republicans.

[ConsAreLiars]

103. Well

I went through the considerable (for me) trouble of un-disabling cookies for Yahoo, making up answers for the intrusive questionnaire, getting my account email-validated, and suppressing my bile at these requirements in order to give a vote for this story:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030910/ap_on_hi_te/electronic_voting

Happily, it gave me the opportunity to kich this and a couple other worthy news stories, and the voting story is now #8 of the most highly rated stories and at number 18 in terms of most frequently rated, and it seem it also has the highest rating of the stories on the 20-most-frequently-rated list.

Go through this PITA registration process. This is another tool for us to use. And, by the way, the rest of the top-rated are not good news for the Straussians.

[oasis]

107. Booostamante

:kick:

[althecat]

109. Good Ole AP... The SLO story is now officially everywhere!!!!

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&scoring=d&q=diebold+San+Luis+Obispo+&btnG=Search+News

Wired, Ohio, Florida, Denmark, Detroit, NewsDay, Texas, Alabama, Seattle, San Diego and even the ole ABC..

Jim March deserves a medal!!!

[DEMActivist]

111. Stop by BBV forum and congratulate Jim!

BBV Breaking Story of the Day

[punpirate]

112. Getting "Not Found" notices...

... for every forum and for the link you provided. Hmmm.

Here's the page it says is missing, if that's a help:

The requested URL /blackboxvotingcgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID15&conf=DCConfID3 was not found on this server.

Cheers.

[RedEagle]

116. Punitrate- are you using an old favorties address?

In my system, I had to delete mine, type in bbv.org again, and then save that, because bbv.org is on a new host now, different address information, etc.

Oh, and KICK!

[DWright]

117. kick for Bev and DemActivist

"You have given the news article Gaffe Casts Doubts on Electronic Voting a rating of 5. Its current average rating is 4.30 with 370 vote(s)."

[DEMActivist]

120. Hmmm, punpirate....PM me

I'm not getting any other reported problems and the forums are working for others.

Maybe we can figure it out.

[Terwilliger]

118. kick

[RedEagle]

121. Stay There

Kick

[hedda_foil]

122. Whoops!

Can't let ya go slip-sliding away on us!

[alfredo]

123. From the Village voice, answers to a question.

they posted a question about Diebold and conflict of interest.
Here is their answers:

http://villagevoice.com/question/?a=20030908


Oh and uh


KICK!!!!!