I am purposely posting during the "MOMENT OF SILENCE"

[Tyler Durden]

I feel like a coward. I should be standing in the aisle of the factory SCREAMING what about the 10,000 plus civilians we've BOMBED in Afganistan and Iraq?

What kind of people are we?

[Brucey]

1. What kind?

Apparently the average 'Murkan is a warloving freak without a conscience for anyone outside their way of thinking. Too much TV, too many Hollywood movies.

[Q]

2. We've become what we pretend to hate...

...

[arwalden]

4. Ouch!

Sorry to say that you're probably correct.

[ithacan]

3. thank you

nt

[heidiho]

5. Unfortunately, we only seem to care about the deaths of Americans

Each and every human being that the world loses to war and terrorism is just as important to their families and loved ones as any other.

I grieve for the entire world today.

[AmeriCanadian]

6. Well, maybe except for those responsible for ...

... the killing

[Atlant]

27. It's even worse. We only seem to care about how much money...

> Unfortunately, we only seem to care about the deaths of Americans

It's even worse. We only seem to care about how much money it's
going to cost us. Notice how "Gung-Ho" Americans were with regard
to Bush's various invasions until he finally started talking about
the money and the next $87B that his political-advertisements-in-disguise
are going to cost everyone. Now, they're all anti-war.

I'm disgusted.

Atlant

[Stephanie]

7. The two thoughts are not mutually exclusive. You can honor those lost

on 9/11 and still express outrage about those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq by bush's perpetual war machine.

There's no reason to disrespect the innocents lost in NY, DC and PA. They did not choose to die that day to advance bush's political agenda.

Have a heart.

[ikojo]

8. Iraqi and Afghani children also did not

choose to die at the hands of US bombs. They also did not choose to die as a result of depleted uranium used by the US in Iraq.

I mourn for all the dead regardless of race, creed, color or national origin...

[Stephanie]

9. Agreed. But mourning for all does not mean you need to disrespect

the American dead. It's not their fault.

[maha]

10. Thank you.

I'm an eyewitness to the collapse of the WTC towers, and September 11 is a hard anniversary for me. And although I am outraged at Bush's War in Iraq, I still need to mourn September 11.

Anyone who doesn't "get" that needs to grow up.

[Tyler Durden]

18. Careful with the "...needs to grow up." shit.

The WTC was no more or less of a tragedy that the collapse of a train bridge in Louisiana drowning passengers in a swamp. Where is the outrage for the Murrah Building? Are "terrorists" and their victims less because there were fewer of them and a citizen did the bombing?

Grow up my ass. We lose less that 2800 people of which 800 were firefighters (the ONLY heroes of the day) which is about .1% of the loss in RWANDA during the latest round of genocide, and this is supposed to be some sort of Global Mourning Day?

Fuck this and Fuck us for our egocentric and insensitive bullshit. If you lost some friend or relative, FINE. THEN and only THEN do you qualify to be in the "MOURNING GROUP." Otherwise, YOU grow up. I have no personal connection to the WTC other than the connection I have as a HUMAN BEING, and I'll tell you that I feel much more agony for the WAY over 3000 killed in the West Bank than I do for the WTC: ours was by MADMEN, theirs and so many others around the world, INCLUDING Iraq and Afganistan were PLANNED AND ORCHESTRATED BY SUPPOSEDLY LEGAL AND SOVERIEGN GOVERNMENTS.

There will not be any peace on earth until EVERY Nazi and Fascist DIES, and that includes US if we stay on this road.

[maha]

19. Fine

C'mon down to lower Manhattan and say that, 'bro. Say it real loud.

Observe the interesting reactions.

The terrorist attacks broke the heart of a great city. Maybe you needed to be here to appreciate what that was like.

Mourning is not zero-sum. Showing respect for the dead of September 11 does not mean dissing every other death. Many family members of September 11 victims are working against the Bush Regime and its wars; probably working harder than you are. I suspect they are mourning today.

Sorry, but you do sound like a 12-year-old. Grow up.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maha]

25. I'm older than you are.

If we're comparing numbers, I've got you beat by a couple of years.

So, Mr. Self-Righteous, do you want to know a little of what I've been doing the past couple of years in regard to the Bush Regime?

Go here and here and here and here and here and here.

C'est moi. Want to tell me again that I should go write speeches for Bush?

[Tyler Durden]

33. Then you should know better than to cast epithets frivolous eptithets.

I've been a Union Organizer, a Delegate to the Socialist Party, a founder of the Rainbow People's Party, an SDS organizer, worked on many campaigns, and run for public office. ..

I've been published on the web, written articles here, and founded forums...

So fucking what? You don't need to see my resume, and I don't need to see yours.

What I objected to was your "GROW UP" dismissal. We are ALL supposed to be "Grown ups" here. I was merely insisting that you act like one and respect me as an individual.

I repeat: grow up my ass.

[maha]

36. Respect you as an individual?

Is it so hard, then, to respect the dead of September 11 and the people who grieve for them? Are these not individuals?

You can't have it both ways. You want respect? Give respect.

[Tyler Durden]

39. Their grief is not mine to own.

"The Nation Mourns" is just more jigoistic nonsense.

Sure I feel bad for these people WHO HAD LOVED ONES IN THE WTC, PENTAGON, MURRAH BUILDING, UN HEADQUARTERS IN BAGDHAD....

But they weren't my loved ones. To "own" their grief is in my opinion pretentious. I am FURIOUS at the Bush Administration who either LIHOP or MIHOP.

As a long time activist, THAT is where I direct my rage, and I feel the "crocodile tears" of the rePUKES I work for and their "Moment of Silence, now let's get right back to making plastic parts for cars" IS BLASPHEMOUS.

I am allowed my personal rage. I respect whatever you fee, but I do not respect your "grow up." That is a minimizing comment, and you still don't recognize it.

[maha]

42. Here's the thing...

Had you been properly socialized, you would feel empathy for those who mourn. Clearly, you don't.

No one is saying that you have to love George Bush or accept what happened on September 11 without question. What we're saying is that there is no reason to diss the dead of September 11. That's inappropriate; an example of misplaced anger.

[Tyler Durden]

46. No, HERE'S the thing:

If you had READ my posts, instead of keying in on YOUR co-dependent need to join in the "Group Mourning," you would have seen that NOT ONCE did I show disrespect to any of the dead, their friends, or their families.

What I did show disrespect to, was people like you who feel an odd need to throw around interesting left-handed elitist disrespect ("Had you been properly socialized...") to people you need to feel superior to.

[outinforce]

51. "People Like You"

"people like you who feel an odd need to throw around interesting left-handed elitist disrespect ("Had you been properly socialized...") to people you need to feel superior to."

Hmmmm...

Would that "odd need" to "throw arounnd interesting left-handed elitist disrespect" to "people you need to feel superior to", include people who make comments such as this:

"f you had READ my posts, instead of keying in on YOUR co-dependent need to join in the "Group Mourning,""?

Where did you get your degree in over-the-internet psychoanalysis?

The truly sad thing here is that your message is being consumed by your increasingly vitriolic attack on those with opposite points of view.

[maha]

52. Sorry, you are mistaken.

> NOT ONCE did I show disrespect to any of the dead, their friends, or their families.

You did so in the thread title. Can you apologize?

Interesting that you diss mourning as a "co-dependent need."

[outinforce]

32. It May Have Broken the Heart

of a great city, but it will NEVER break the spirit of that GREAT city.

I live in Washington, DC, and I was in NYC for a week-end about a month ago. It was my first real trip to NYC since 9/11.

In speaking with some friends, I re-discovered the thing that makes NYC such a wonderful place -- its people.

Here in DC, I can take you by the Pentagon, and you will see a building that has been completely repaired. If you did not know that it had been attacked, you could not tell it.

But in NYC, the two great towers that used to be on the south end of Manhattan Island are gone -- and gone forever. Their absence is a constant reminder to the great people of that great city that they were -- all of them -- victims of vicious people who would just as soon have killed more than 3,000 of them.

Even more than ever, I love NYC. It embodies much of the BEST of the USA.

[maha]

35. Thank you.

I'm not a native New Yorker, but I've worked in Manhattan for the past several years. It was very hard to be in New York in the weeks after September 11. The grieving was palpable. Even dogs being walked look sad.

New York bounced back. People went on. But I think most of us who were there that day are ready to punch out anybody who steps on the grief that is still there.

[Atlant]

29. Tyler, I lost a friend on 9/11, and I'm *STILL* on your side.

> THEN and only THEN do you qualify to be in the "MOURNING GROUP."
> Otherwise, YOU grow up.

Tyler, I lost a friend (Peter Hashem) on 9/11, and I'm STILL
on your side. The 2800 who died were a calculated trade-off made
for vast political gain by a cynical administration.

Atlant

[maha]

37. Of course they were.

" The 2800 who died were a calculated trade-off made
for vast political gain by a cynical administration."

Yes, they were. So does this mean we should pee on their graves?

[Atlant]

40. I'm sorry, but I don't hear Tyler doing that.

> So does this mean we should pee on [the graves of the 2800]?

No, and I'm sorry, but I don't hear Tyler doing that. Go re-read
the first post. If anything, it's a cry that we should all be doing
something MORE ACTIVE to remember the dead.

Atlant

[maha]

43. Go re-read his other posts.

He's not exactly Mr. Empathy.

[Atlant]

48. Putting our loss of 2800 "in context" doesn't prove a lack of empathy.

> Go re-read his other posts; He's not exactly Mr. Empathy.

As you know, tens of thousands die worldwide every day, many of
them in gruesome and needless ways.

Putting our loss of 2800 into that context doesn't prove any
lack of empathy on Tyler's part.

Atlant

[maha]

54. We're all just grains of sand on the beach.

His premise is that INSTEAD OF mourning the dead, we should be fighting the Bush Regime. Mine is that ALONG WITH mourning the dead, we should be fighting the Bush Regime.

I feel genuine grief for the September 11 dead. Does that make me a dupe of the neocons? The thread title -- that he dissed a moment of silence ON PURPOSE -- offends me. Does that make me a jingoist?

What I'm seeing in Tyler is an emotional disconnect that is a terrible flaw in a lot of political activists, left and right. I'd rather be someone who mourns and fights than someone who doesn't.

[leftynyc]

64. I agree Maha

I too am an eyewitness to 9/11. I can't believe there are those who believe it is a disservice to those in Iraq and Afghanistan who died to merely remember those who died here. It could have been any one of us. What is wrong with remembering all the shattered lives and families? How exactly does this disrespect anyone?

[catmandu57]

11. I don't want to hear about 911

but, I know I'm not going to get away with that. The only thing I want to hear about it is that IT MAY HAVE BEEN PREVENTED had these idiots not been so damn busy chasing after lifestyles that offrended them, or if we had a president that actually read and responded to reports written by what is supposed to be one of the best intelligence
agencies ever.
I also would like to know why after two years we haven't turned that rock around and looked at all sides, top, bottom, sawed it in pieces to look at why.
Hopefully we'll know more about this before I check out, but I doubt it.

[Tyler Durden]

12. As to "Patriots" on "Patriot's Day"

A friend of mine not known for left wing thinking around here took me aside this morning, and told me something I'd heard shortly after the WTC:

"The people in the WTC were bankers, lawyers, and their support groups. The only 'patriots' were the people flying the airplanes."

Harsh, but true. "Pro Deo et Patria" is as outdated as the Latin it's written in. PATRIOTISM, the last refuge of the scoundrel, has outgrown its use, and nationalism should be exposed as the cancer it is once and for all. I personally think it's about time we started developing this attitude:

"We're in this for the SPECIES, boys and girls."

A marginally profound quote from an otherwise silly but entertaining movie.

If we don't get our SHIT together as the top aninmals on the food chain and protect the rest of the animal kingdom INCLUDING fellow humans from the ASSHOLES and BUSHITES, we will still be having this argument when the big rock comes sailing in from the asteroid belt and gives the Rats or the Roaches their shot at being top dog.

[OKNancy]

17. There were hundreds of maintenence workers too

blue collar people, people from other countries, middle management, Moms and Dads.....My sister is a banker and a good Democrat, but of course, she's not worthy of respect.

Your friend sounds like an asshole.

Oh, and the hijackers were not patriots, they were religious fanatics.

[Tyler Durden]

20. If you sister died in the WTC, then I apologize...OTHERWISE...

Why don't you pick a REAL tragedy to get pissed about?

The Comment was that these were just everyday people, and there is NOTHING patriotic about standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. You might as well call this "INNOCENT BYSTANDER DAY." You certainly wouldn't be wrong, and you could honor all of the innocents all over the world that get caught in the crossfire.

Ast to "RELIGIOUS FANATICS," WE live in that glass house, or haven't you been reading the news? They just mixed religion and politics, something that the Bushites do every day of the week.

I repeat, unless you're PERSONALLY involved, then you need to start mourning EVERY mass death of innocents from the Johnstown Flood to the Great Chicago Fire.

[OKNancy]

24. Oh, but I do mourn all who die

The innocents in Afganistan, in Iraq, and wherever there is injustice. That's the nature of this bleeding heart liberal.

I also mourn for those innocents in the WTC, and in Oklahoma City.

I dislike your condesending tone. I'm sure I read the news as much as anyone on DU, and I'm positive I hate Bush and the gang more than most. Your first sentence said why don't I get pissed..etc. I'm not pissed about anything but this whole horrible mess.

Hating Bush doesn't mean we have to devalue those who want to mourn their loved ones.

[Tyler Durden]

38. I am NOT condescending, I am ENRAGED!

Mourning the loss of someone from a tragedy is PERSONAL. If someone I knew or loved died in the WTC I can tell you this you would not BELIEVE my RAGE at ANYONE trying to "feel my pain."

We seem to have some sort of sick fascination with "joining together on the occasion of this 'national tragedy'". I personally am sick to my stomache over the entire mess, but in MOURNING?

May I be struck by lightning if I even attempt to make hay on someone else's PERSONAL TRAGEDY, which is no less personal because it happened to 2800 people all at the same time and was caused by a person, not a hurricaine or earthquake.

[maha]

41. Is this a Mars versus Venus argument?

I agree. I cried over Oklhaoma City, even though I've never been to Oklahoma City and didn't know a soul involved in it. But then I've also shed tears over photos of wounded Iraqis, as well as funerals of American soldiers, as well as African famine victims, as well as children killed in car accidents, etc.

Some people seem to lack emotional connection to other members of their species. Bad socialization?

[Tyler Durden]

49. What's the feminine for "Misogyny"?

So it's a "MALE" thing? Piss on YOU, and your "...bad socialization..." bullshit. I at least have never practiced Misogyny, as you seem to claim men cannot feel "empathy" and are badly socialized.

You don't know me; and your lack of knowledge makes your comments stupid. You didn't kneel with me at the banks of the Patomac while they pulled crash victims of the freezing river and weep uncontrollably while giving first aid. It's comments like yours that make us look like we look down on people.

[maha]

55. Just keep pilin' it on.

You're still acting like a 12-year-old.

[outinforce]

23. There was an Eleven-Year-Old Child

An 11-year-old child, a student at a DC public School, was on board the American Airlines Flight, along with his teacher, that crashed into the Pentagon.

I did not know either the teacher or the student. But neither one was, I would argue, a banker, a lawyer, or part of their support group.

Neither of them deserved to die that day -- and certainly neither of them deserved to spend the last few minutes of their lives on this planet in abject and total terror as they felt the plane they were on careen towards the ground.

Nor did any -- and I mean any -- of the people in the World Trade Center Towers -- deserve to die. Nor did any of them deserve to spend the last few minutes of their lives choking back smoke -- smoke so dense that it cause many people to jump from the upper floors of the WTC Towers.

I don't know if you ever contemplate your own death, but I would guess that if you do, you would not choose for yourself a death that is preceded by several minutes of terror-filled horror.

The moment of silence today is about remembering -- and remembering with sorrow -- the undeserved, terror-filled deathes of people who did not deserve to die.

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. It's 9-11 for somebody every day

In Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Palestine, every day has been 9-11 for quite some time.

What do you suppose it is like to be a Palestinian firefighter?

[ikojo]

14. AMEN DuctTape!

Not only to be a Palestinian firefighter (if any exist) but to be an Israeli or Palestinian trying to live their life amid terror.

[outinforce]

26. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine

Why, if you want to make the point that it is 9/11 everyday, did you omit Israel?

Acts of terror -- acts specifically designed to kill innocent Israelis going about their everyday existence -- take place there almost every day.

I might also point out that over 3,000 people -- Americans as well as people from around the world -- died as a result of terrorist actions on September 11, 2001.

It seems to me that to equate what happens in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine with what happened in New York , Arlington, and Somerset County, somehoe diminishes the magnitude of what happened on 9/11/01.

[ixion]

15. here here, TD...

I hope that someday the average 'murikan will realize what a mess has been made of the world in our name.

And why?

So a lousy, spoiled, ignorant, arrogant child of privilage can have his war.

The terrorists are among us, living in the WH, and I want to scream this to anyone who will listen. The 'official' story of what happened that day is a total farce, and people still accept it. It frustrates me beyond belief.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm

[emad]

16. I was going to go to the opening ceremony for the 'Garden of

Remembrance', opposite the US embassy in Grosvenor Square, London, that is the UK's commemorative gesture to the families of 9-11, until I saw that it was a spin job to be hosted by top shrubman at the US embassy Will Farish and his gargoyle wife, and the UK's No 1 Nazi Female, Princess Anne. It would have been like attending a gardening makeover at Auschwitz hosted by Hitler's personal investment adviser and his insurance company's saleswoman-of-the-year.
Bush/Blair knew and let it happen. All subsequent empathy gestures are an affront to human decency until these two are convicted of conspiracy.

[Drifter]

22. This is not a time for silence.

I am not being disrespectful to those who perished 2 years ago, quite the contrary.

The Administration wants everyone to be silent.
They wish to silence the American people.
They wish to silence the 9/11 investigation.
They silenced an EPA report which may result in the (early) deaths of thousands who were near Ground Zero.
They wish to silence the majority who criticise this administration.

This is not a time for silence. This is a time for outspoken dissent. You can not effect change when you are silent. We need change.

Do you think even one victim of 9/11 would want Americans to be silent, rather than outspoken and active in changing America for the better ?

Remember 9/11 ... Bush Knew ... Bush Failed.

Cheers
Drifter

[playahata1]

28. I teach an 8:00 a.m. class on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Today our class went on during the "moment of silence." No one mentioned 9-11, no one asked that we have a moment of silence, and no one complained when 8:46 passed without a blink. Business as usual. In fact, a student referred to * as a "dyslexic alcoholic cokehead." No rebuttals.

Except for the flag being at half-mast on campus, no one around here seems to give today a second thought. And if they are reflecting, they are doing it in their own way.

[BiggJawn]

30. The CNN Morning Poll...

wanting to know if I was gonna do something "special" to remember "9/11"...
I'm one of the 33% who said "No."...

Maybe I'm just cold, but 2 years+ mourning? Hell, even the Lakota cleaned you up and gave you a haircut after a year of grief....

[Blue_Chill]

31. So then the 3000 that died don't matter?

The 10,000 there dead do not make the 3000 dead here somehow not worthy of a moment of silence. People close to me lost loved ones there and I would appreciate it if you showed a little respect.

I'm sorry if your heart is unable to care for multiple groups of people but I mourn them all. I feel for families where ever they are that just want to live their FUCKING lives only to have everything destroyed by politics. They are INNOCENT and I'm getting sick and tired of this bullshit.

You don't feel the Americans lost are worthy of respect? Then stop fucking telling us and drive your ass NYC and tell one of the kids there that is crying and holding a picture of his father how you feel.

Your disrespect for the 3000 dead here is no different then the freeper disrespect for the 10K 30k 1 million that have died around the world. Both of you view certain lives as less worthy. It makes me fucking sick.

[Tyler Durden]

44. Are you a professional asshole?

Or does the language barrier make you misunderstand my point?

I did not ONCE disrespect ANYONE who died, I cast aspersion on people who join in the "Group Mourn" with no respect for the MILLIONS who have died elsewhere.

You as a Chilean with the legacy of Pinochet should be especially pissed: where is the "Group Mourn" for the disappeared?

Time to start losing the AMERICAN TRAGEDY bullshit, and start using this as a springboard to social change.

[Blue_Chill]

45. I was thinking the same of you.

People don't like being told we aren't mourning enough lives. Life is hard for many of us today man so just lay the fuck off. Give your fucking outrage a rest, because while your life may be great and cozy today many of us mourn. So if we aren't doing it the way you would prefer, tough shit.

[outinforce]

47. Disrespect

"I did not ONCE disrespect ANYONE who died."

"The people in the WTC were bankers, lawyers, and their support groups. The only 'patriots' were the people flying the airplanes."

Harsh, but true."

Sure sounds like some disrepect for the dead to me. (Weren't the people flying the planes hi-jackers??)

And, oh yes, this: "Are you a professional asshole?...Or does the language barrier make you misunderstand my point?", is not the most respectful comment I have ever seen posted.

[Tyler Durden]

53. Guess his "Blue"'s comments to me were designed to elicit brotherhood?

Sorry about the language barrier comment. I was mad.

As to the "patriots" bit, patriotism is passe in my book. Sorry if that makes you mad, but all countries pass away eventually, or evolve beyond recognition. I save my reverence for the entire planet these days.

[outinforce]

60. No need to apologize to me

I was attempting to give you a little bit of (I hope) friendly and useful advice.

It has been my experience here on DU, when posting on controversial subjects (one of my favorites is abortion), to tread very lightly on other people's emotions.

That is, if you wish to convey your message.

Otherwise, your discussion devolves -- and devolves quite qucikly -- into a dicussion not of your topic, but of how other people are reacting to your topic, and how you react to their reactions.

Better, in my humble view, to acknowledge the other person's feelings on the subject. To disagree in a respectful tone and manner.

And to let disrepectful comments directed your way simply bounce off of you, or to point out to the other person that you will not discuss topics with those who cannot keep their comments civil and respectful.

While I don't always succeed, those are my basic rules when posting on topics of great controversy.

Like this one.

Hope they help. Ignore them if you wish.

[Blue_Chill]

61. No they certainly were not meant to elicit brotherhood

They were meant to show outrage. I'm sorry if you don't like it. But perhaps today is not the best day to pass judgement on the victims of 9/11 or how people choose to mourn.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Why Is A Lawyer Or A Banker

anymore deserving of a violent death than say, a errrrrrrrrrr, school teacher or priest....

They are all God's children.....


If the inference is that some lawyers and bankers do nefarious things than let the crminal justice system deal with them...


I mourn a-l-l innocent victims whereever they are....

[Boudicea]

50. Hard to imagine a utupian society ...

where there are those treating others they way our friend Tyler does. P.S. Couldn't remember why I recognized his name so I looked it up. That explains alot.

[maha]

57. We're not zealous enough for him.

He strikes me as the sort of hotheaded asshole that you really don't want showing up at a protest.

[alcuno]

34. That's okay. I'm not wearing red/white and blue in the school

where I teach. In spite of the fact that Patriot's Day was encouraged.

[joanski01]

56. Well, if this administration is

trying to compare this attack with Pearl Harbor, they gotta have a special 9/11 day, like Pearl Harbor Day.

My main objection is to the Congressman and Senators who are making speeches about this. Rick Santorum's speech made me want to puke. So did Kay Baily Hutchinson's.

[maha]

58. When was the last time you observed Pearl Harbor Day?

I share your urge to puke. The GOP is still trying to capitalize on a national tragedy.

But who remembers Pearl Harbor any more?

For people who were alive at that time, Pearl Harbor was a punch in the stomach. For many people it hurt the rest of their lives.

My dad's brother was an embassy guard in Peking and taken prison by Japanese the day after Pearl Harbor. He remained a POW until 1945. One of my dad's cousins went down on the Arizona. I was born after the war, but the strain that event put my family through was still part of our lives, in subtle ways.

I try to remember December 7, but sometimes I forget. It'll be the same with September 11, eventually. Yet we should try to remember these things.

[tom_paine]

62. Imperial Subjects

That's what kind. And there are ALL KINDS of other shoes about to drop as we travel from Imperial Subjects Deluded Pleasantly By Twilight That They are Still Free to just plain old Imperial Subjects Who Know The Score.

These are the Good Old Days, and future Emperors Jeb, Ahnold, and George P. will make us long for the days of Tiberius*

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

63. I could give a Rat's Ass what you do or think

If not participating in a moment of silence makes you feel special, then that is super. Give yourself a big pat on the back, sport.

Personally, I did participate - I was dead asleep.

[EarlG]

65. Flamebait

Locking