Do We Love America?

[bryant69]

This is a question we have to consider. Some of you will be offended that it is even asked; I am a bit offended that I am asking it, to tell the truth. We all know that there is a constant drumbeat from the Coulters or the Limbuaghs that Liberals hate their country and their countrymen. Most of their "argument" such as it is comes from pulling quotes from the extreme left and inflating them to reflect all of our attitudes.

However, you see similar attitudes expressed here on Democratic Underground. People who feel the need to dishonor 3,000 dead to remind us of all the evil that America has done. I'm not denying that America has done some bad things; nor am I saying we are better off forgetting those things. I am saying that I see little need to focus on those things during our moment of remembrance. It's both stupid and mean. Stupid because nobody is going to listen; the mean part is self explanetory.

My contention is that although we may at some point move past nationalism; we sure aren't there yet. America has terrible flaws; but it is still a beacon of freedom and hope to the world. As we enter a campaign season; we need to ask ourselves what vision do we have for America and for the American people. How are we going to make America better, safer, more just? What kind of America are we going to leave for our children?

Speaking to those United States citizens on the board (I'm aware that liberals from other nations post here; and of course it's different for you); if we don't love America than what is the point in trying to see that our guy becomes President of it? Of trying to get our guys in the Senate, the House, Governors Mansions, Legislatures and on down. If you believe the system is so corrupt that you can't love America, then leave the democratic party; leave politics altogether.

I love America; and I'm proud of it. I believe that America has great strengths and great compassion. I hope that we get a President next year that can unleash those strengths and take us back to the right course.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[sasquatch]

1. If I didn't complain then I wouldn't care

I would just say "ah screw it, I'm moving to Canada" or "I don't care about politics", then I'm not doing my job as an American.

[Blue_Chill]

2. I love this great nation

And that says a lot coming from a Chilean on 9/11.

[robbedvoter]

3. Must read: Franken's book on this

He says cons love America like a toddler would: Mommy is the best and can do no wrong.
We, OTOH, are more mature - we love her, but we can see things that she can do better than she does...

[bryant69]

4. Well part of that comes from how we are taught history

Particularly foreign affairs; it's a tragedy because it not only robs us of any understanding of why some parts of the world resent us, but it also robs of understanding our triumphs as well. There's no context either way.

[prolesunited]

5. I think that sums up

the way I feel. I am here and in the streets because I really do love my country and the promise of what it could be.

[salin]

13. My love of country

comes from an understanding of the 'noble experiment' that put into place this democracy, that took ideas from various intellectuals about putting the power of government into the hands of people, and took the strength of leaders to shape what that meant.

I recognize that even early on, the ideal and the realities were seperated (some people were not deigned people), but that through pain and - indeed people power, after many struggles - the system evolved to work to begin to correct those inconsistencies. The system that was created as an ideal, was able to evolve - though a civil war challenged that, such that our system has evolved without coups (though some believe that 2000 was a sort of bloodless coup), with the exception of the civil war - without revolution (and a change in the form of government that often accompanies a revolution).

I believe in the ideals set forth in this country, and while imperfect in actualization there is a structure for continued change/evolution so we may continue to grow to try to more clearly realize the potential. The potential that every citizen matters. That every citizen has educational and professional opportunities. That at a more basic level that differences of opinions, ideals, beliefs are allowed (if not always valued).

However none of the big changes that have allowed the evolution of our system have come without critique and without struggle. Changes in laws that create a balance of power between corporations and great wealth to the basic protections of individuals and workers, such as child labor laws, minimum wage laws, basic worker safety laws; changes such as balancing public resources/needs with the needs of corporations to generate enough capital to continue to grow and provide services - systems that evolved during the depression era that allow for rural electrification, regulation of private entities to provide utilities without gouging citizens/consumers who rely on those services for basic well being (and whose ability to 'cover' large "Market induced" swings is limited); The end of slavery, the end of Jim Crow laws, and federally enforced voter equality acts that ended the intentional disenfranchisement of African American voters (which, btw, seems to have found a new way of being reinstituted in Florida in 2000 and 2002).

America is a better country for these and many other changes. But they did not come without struggle, without critique, without painful change for some.

How can being a part of the historical process of critique and evolution of our country and government - to bring it closer and closer to the beautiful ideas espoused in its founding - be anything but stemming from a love of country?

[pansypoo53219]

26. Indeed,so....

I love the bastard, but i am REALLY pissed off at the shit he's been doing lately.

[maha]

6. Hell yes!

Don't let the assholes say any different!

Save America from the Bush Regime!

[chiburb]

8. LOL! 1st time I've EVER...

Disagreed with ANYTHING you've written!
I still love you though...

[maha]

21. That's OK.

I've been known to get misty-eyed when a band plays "Stars and Stripes Forever." But I've had ancestors here since about 1700, and I think of America as my dysfunctional extended family. Makes me crazy, but it's the only family I've got and I love it anyway. :-)

[Brian Sweat]

34. Recall Bush? Why the hell would I want to do that?

I'm doing my very best to forget the bastard.

[maha]

36. LOL!

Your worst nightmare?

[chiburb]

7. No.

I live here comfortably, pay the taxes required of me so that others may have a level of comfort too (not my fault those $$$ are being spent foolishly now), and don't desire to live anywhere else (though Canada is VERY attractive!).

"As we enter a campaign season; we need to ask ourselves what vision do we have for America and for the American people. How are we going to make America better, safer, more just? What kind of America are we going to leave for our children? "

Good questions. My RESPONSIBILITY to this country is to work toward those goals, but it isn't out of "love". Better, safer, more just yes... because those things benefit me and mine and the community I live in. What does that have to do with love?

As for the Coulters, Limpballs, etc. saying that liberals "hate" this country, why do you feel a need to prove that you love it?

As for being a beacon of freedom and hope to the rest of the world, I suspect our beacon is dimming...

As for the 3000 dead being dishonored by the evil DUers on this of all days, I have one question:
Why is an American life worth more than an Iraqi life? Rwandan life? Canadian life?

Sorry if this post offends, but yours struck me as too much of "my country right or wrong", and I went through all that in the '60s.

[Tyler Durden]

11. "My Country, right or wrong"... A burglar couldn't have voiced it better.

WHEN do we get to be the FAMILY of EARTH and stop this nationalistic BULLSHIT?

[bryant69]

16. I don't know what you mean by My Country Right or Wrong

Didn't I reference the problems of America that require fixing?

I feel the need to show my love for my country because I do love my country; there is a climate in our nation being purposely created that suggests that Democrats don't love their country; are at best indifferent to it and some hate it. Liberals like you and otehrs who have posted here feed into that perception. Maybe you should go to Canada; I hear it's very nice.

An American life means more to me because they are my countrymen; yeah this is not going to get a good response, but if I really believed that President Bush's Iraq plan was going to make life safer for me and my family, I'd accept some of the civilian deaths. I don't believe that, as it turns out--President Bush's war in Iraq appears more and more like a disaster.

[chiburb]

20. "Maybe you should go to Canada; I hear it's very nice. "

I rest my case.

[bryant69]

24. This is a fun conversation

Liberal 1 "I love America"

Liberal 2 "I sure don't. It's practically a fascist state; President Bush is ruining everything and the stupid American Sheeple are letting him. The American Dream is dead; America is just a nation of whores and hustlers who are willing to slaughter Forigners at the drop of a hat. Canada is a hell of a lot better than here."

Liberal 1 "Well maybe you should go there? You might be happier"

Liberal 2. "I can't believe a fellow liberal would stab me in the back and suggest that I leave this land of my birth that I, well, I don't love it, but I have feelings for it."

[chiburb]

28. I'm glad you're enjoying it...

Please point to where I've made ONE of those comments. You originally replied to my feeling that you were invoking a "my country right or wrong" attitude, with the comment "Move to Canada". Now you're having a conversation with yourself and attributing half of it to me.
Please stop.

[bryant69]

35. At this point

It might be helpful to point out a few points. ON a lot of the issues we probably agree (unless you are a revolutionist. Are you?). But assuming you are dedicated to working through legal means to end President Bush's reign, than we are largely on the same page.

I love my country; use whatever synonym for love you like. I think that most Democrats love their country and wish it well; and it's obviously frusterating that we are tagged with this description of being anti American, unpatriotic, and with hating America.

That may not bother you; perhaps you think the Democratic party out to be push an agenda that is not exclusively for America. But it does bother me on a personal level, and, I would guess, others as well.

On a practical level, I suspect a campaign built around explaining to America that she sucks would not be very successful.

Allow me to repeat the words of Dennis Kunicich, not my favored candidate, but he can turn a phrase; "I offer these brief remarks today as a prayer for our country, with love of democracy, as a celebration of our country. With love for our country.With hope for our country. With a belief that the light of freedom cannot be extinguished as long as it is inside of us. With a belief that freedom rings resoundingly in a democracy each time we speak freely. With the understanding that freedom stirs the human heart and fear stills it. With the belief that a free people cannot walk in fear and faith at the same time."

[Tyler Durden]

9. I've given this a lot of thought, and NO, I don't.

Love is an emotion I reserve for fellow human beings, my dogs, cats, and any other entity on Earth that lives, breaths, and expires with the possible exception of mosquitos, unpleaseant bacteria/viruses and their ilk.

There are no borders. We thought them up; they don't really exist, unless you count the vacuum of space and even that can be debated. We are no better or worse than any other group of people, taken at the level of the human family.

AND WE AS A COUNTRY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF WHAT IS DONE IN OUR NAME. If there is a future history, we shall be judged harshly, in the same category as the Spartans, the late Roman Empire, the Spanish Inquisition, etcetera, ad nauseum.

Countries and Nations ARE NOT IMMORTAL, and we should remember that. They are born, mature, grow old and die. The philosophy of freedom and equality is the only issue we should be pushing as GOD.

[piece sine]

39. No Borders!

Borders are very real, my friend. "Vermont" is a very different place from "Arizona." Heck....New York is quite different from Pennsylvania. Borders have a meaning and purpose; they serve emcompass the values of a particular region.

The UNITED States is a remarkable and unprecedent collection of different regional interests (states) collectively forming a strong bond. It's hard not admire the idealism of the American people and our ingenuity.

Without belittling the real problems attendant to being the World's only HYPER-power, I'd like to point-out we attained such pre-emminence because we in America respect the collective differences each state. Each state has a role to play within its borders.

Anyway, this is starting to border on the saccharine and the flowery so I'll knock it off now.

America rocks!

[chadm]

42. And love is blind

Blindness has no place in a Democracy.

[Fovea]

10. Toward a lovable America

Two years ago, I knew that we needed to become even more a part of a world community, with interconnections legally, economically, and environmentally with the rest of the world strengthening.

That was important because we were going to need cooperation dealing with international organizations like al qaeda. We were also going to be challenged by the implications of Kyoto to find another way to run an industrial economy than gas and coal.

Our current paradigm for power transmission, transportation, health care, and education quite frankly, suck. But rather than do anything about that, we charged into Iraq. Do not tell me that Bush did that.
We let him, like the Germans did Hitler, like the French did Napoleon, like the Cambodians did Pol Pot. And we sacrificed the whole decade of the '90 built up prosperity and international good will for a 'carpet of bombs.'

The Bush junta has been criminal from the Get-Go. Look at the people it draws around it. I can't think of a single upper level member of the RICO organization that doesn't deserve a stretch in the pen. And, as Dan Ackroyd says in 'Evolution', "...not the country club prison with the loose jump suits, but state pen, with the crotch-binders."


Back to Pol Pot, I mean Ashcroft. That money that should have created a real recovery is headed to the pockets of Bush and Co. It is headed to oil price subsidies in the form of infrastructure in Iraq, more weapons, more payoffs, more bidless contracts.

And it is even more cruel when you compare it to what a Gore administration would have looked like. With Gore we would have been heading toward parity with the Europeans regarding labor, health, and education issues. As it is now, we are having to steal from our grandkids to make weapons to fight the enemies we are making more of every day, and using a lot of oil that they have.

To have a lovable America is to have an America where none of the last two years happened. I do not think President Gore would have us where we are today, skateing not on thin ice, but thin air.

We realize that a sustainable, peaceful future for the world means change. We decided to continue guzzling oil. Do I love America?
Yes, but I also loved alcholic members of my family. I just didn't let them play bartender.

[Brian Sweat]

12. I love this country

It is the people who are trying to undo everything for which it stands that I loathe.

However, not everything that we do is right and when we do something that is wrong, as a true partriot, I must point this out so that we can do the right thing and become an even greater country.


Are there people on DU that hate America? Yes. They have said so, but it is a small discontented minority.

[bobd]

14. I DO NOT Like it Sam I Am

The US is in it's death throes. Collectively, "We The People" permit, encourage and otherwise assent to the cabal that is the culmination of everything that is bad about this country.

Reclamation is possible but, in my view, unlikely. Someone tell me how 200,000,000 minds can be changed without some sort of cataclism?

I've lost my faith in the goodness of the US.

[stickdog]

15. Hey hey, what can I do

Wanna tell you about the nation that I love
My she looks so fine
She's the only one that I been dreamin' of
Maybe someday she will be all mine
I wanna tell her that I love her so
I thrill with her every touch
I need to tell her she's the only one I really love

I got a nation, wanna war all day
I got a nation, she won't be true, no
I got a nation, stay drunk all the time
I said I got a big ol' nation and she won't be true

Sunday morning when we go down to church
See the menfolk standin' in line
I said they come to pray to the Lord
With my little girl, looks so fine
In the evening when the sun is sinkin' low
Everybody's with the one they love
I walk the town, Keep a - searchin' all around
Lookin' for my street corner girl

I got a nation, wanna war all day
I got a nation, she won't be true, no
I got a nation, stay drunk all the time
I said I got a big ol' nation and she won't be true

In the bars, with the men who play guitars
Singin', drinkin' and rememberin' the times
My little lover does a midnight shift
She followed around all the time
I guess there's just one thing a - left for me to do
Gonna pack my bags and move on my way
Cause I got a worried mind
Sharin' what I thought was mine
Gonna leave her where the guitars play

I got a nation, wanna war all day
I got a nation, she won't be true, no
I got a nation, stay drunk all the time
I said I got a big ol' nation and she won't be true

(Hey hey what can I do)

I said she won't be true

(Hey Hey, What can I say?)

Hey hey, what can I do
I got a nation, she won't be true
Lord, hear what I say
I got a nation, wanna war all day

[chiburb]

22. I Took A Walk...

I took a walk through the fields of America
I'll tell you what I saw in the middle of the garbage and erotica
I saw a man in pain crying to be free
Children in the rain, yelling out their glee
Singers on the plain, fused in harmony
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee


People I have seen in the streets and communities
Running in mortal fear of the violence and its companies
I saw a man in hand flying to the moon
Well, the rich man of the land dying all too soon
I say people in the bands you really ought to learn this tune
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee


I took a walk through the fields of America
I'll tell you what I saw, I saw a murder in a place called Attica
I saw a man called power who said you've got to fit my vision
I saw a man called Law said if you don't I'm going to put you in a prison
I saw a man called Peace who was shaking with the laughter of derision
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee


I took a walk through the fields of America I'll tell you what I saw
I saw the blizzards and the tropica
I saw mountain streams running free and clear, Lord
Creatures of my dreams so beautiful I shed my tears
You great and wondrous land
I wonder why you cannot hear me now
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee
Oh America, they want to love you, please be true to thee


America, America, America, America, America

Shawn Phillips

[kwolf68]

17. We all love America

But many of us have different reasons why we love it.

[bryant69]

18. I think it's clear

That we don't all love America on this board.

[Blue_Chill]

19. Stop saying that

We do not all love america, some here hate it just read the posts.

[salin]

23. I always find it when the freeps say that

given how many of them really hate a whole lot of aspects of this country. Many hate religious freedom (as suggested by their desire to impose a single, more extreme, view of their religion on us all through governmental authority (laws)), many hate public institutions that are designed to make America and democracy work (the debate of who 'rules' via who can vote goes back to our inception - with Jeffereson leading the - have the people vote - but educate them vs. the - only the elite should vote because others are too ignorant to understand the issues/responsibilities of self-governance), many hate our economic system that has led to a balance between corporate markets and some form of regulatory powers to protect citizens (they call all such programs as "communist" although those programs have nothing to do with centralization of economic means of production), many hate many Americans - from immigrants, to migrant workers, to people of other religious persuasions, to minorities, sometimes to women in general, etc.

One has to love the irony.

[Blue_Chill]

27. Extremes on both sides are similar

The extreme have similarities to me. For example these are the things you said about freepers compared to those far left on this board.

Many hate religious freedom

Mnay here don't care for reigious freedom either. They support the notion of religious freedom to impose a secular goverment. But if you want to test my theory ask them if they think any less of Castro for kicking the church out? Ask them if they think any less of China for forcing atheism on it's people? I've gotten many responses showing that my theory was right on target with some.

many hate our economic system that has led to a balance between corporate markets and some form of regulatory powers to protect citizens

More then a few here hate our economic system and blame it for all the worlds troubles.

many hate many Americans - from immigrants, to migrant workers, to people of other religious persuasions, to minorities, sometimes to women in general, etc.

I was in a thread about a month ago where a few DUers were telling me how they dind't mind that poor mexicans were dying in the desert. They said helping them would be a bad thing. I guess the idea of a world people' only extends to Iraqis, hispanics like myself are still treated as pests.

[salin]

29. That isn't my point

the folks saying that on this board - are not claiming that the Freepers "hate this country". It is the charge thrown in the other direction sans reflection upon their own sentiments that I find ironic.

[Blue_Chill]

31. I understand that

I was merely pointing out the similarities. The irony of accusations works both ways as well but we'll leave that for another time. For now allow me to say I realised the point you were trying to make and I agree with you. The freepers on the right that claim to be the most patriotic of them all are often the least. In fact most of the time they seem to be clueless as to what this nation reall stands for.

[Brian Sweat]

33. As an atheists

anyone who threatens your right to believe, threatens my right not to believe. As far as thinging less of Castro, I never though much of him in the first place. His opposition to religious freedom is just a symptom of his overall opposition to freedom in general.

Our economic system is the worse economic system in the world, except for all of the rest.

[Blue_Chill]

37. nice

just in case you misunderstood I didn't mean all atheists thought that way. Just some way out there left fielders who have odd similarities to those I oppose on the right.

[stickdog]

43. Don't forget. They also hate the system of legal liability. (NT)

[chiburb]

25. Which post espouses "hate" of America?

That is exactly what's wrong with the original post. It creates an either-or choice instead of the many flavors of affection, support, puppy love or numerous options that fall, perhaps, short of "love".
Fuck that.

[Blue_Chill]

30. excuses

A nation is not a person, and thus love does not mean the same thing. There is not a person in this country that sits awake waiting for America to call, or can't shut their eyes at night because they are excited that they will be seeing America again tomorrow.

So that sad list of emotions you listed is laughable. One could have answered I have mixed emotions sometimes loving it sometimes not. But to answer flat out NO. That says more then you think my friend.

[chiburb]

40. Yeah. It says...

I'm not confused about the definition of love.
Puzzling: Couldn't your "love" of America be looked at as worshipping a false God? Why wouldn't you choose a lesser emotion to describe your affection for this country?
You have a hangup on the word "myth" when used to describe your God. Even if you understand the context in which it was used, you find the word itself offensive. I have the same problem with "love". If by your own definition the word can't apply "with the same meaning", why do you object to my choosing to use a different word? I CAN love the people of this nation, the people of the world, the people of my family. I cannot love a country.

[Uzybone]

32. Those that disagree

disagree on the point that you cant "love" a country. In that vein they dont "hate" it either. I love the ideals that America is supposed to stand for, I love its constitution and bill of rights. I love its system of government. The reason we are upset is that none of the things I mentioned above work even close to thier ideals, and we (progressives) are fighting, and have been fighting since the dawn of this country, to bring us closer and closer to those ideals.

[sexybomber]

38. I f***ing love my country.

But I f***ing hate Smirky.

I'm more of a patriot than the right-wingers, to be perfectly honest. I wouldn't be so pissed about the state of the nation right now if I didn't love it.

[chadm]

41. Cute post

- Some of us refused to manufacture an aura of "rememberance" just because that's what the media tells us to do on this day. I feel the same way about things as yesterday, and I don't plan to limit my freedom of speech because of the date.

- America is not the beacon of freedom and hope, as you claim. If I were going to make a sweeping generalization it would be that it is a beacon of enslavement and fear. But what is the value of such generalizations?

- I love a lot about America and I'm not compelled to make a sweeping judgement about my overall opinion on the whole. I see no need to. I will go on talking about what I love and what I hate in specific terms, rather than making unsubstantiated generalizations.

But, I know, you're just after a "yea America!" type of response to make you feel better. But what will that accomplish, really?