There has been an accusation made here that Kerry cheated his way

[Bandit]

out of Vietnam early. That he only served four months of duty there. I have spent considerable time trying to find evidence of this. If anyone here knows of where I can find the facts of this please provide a link. I did see where he requested an early out from the military but all I can find on his Vietnamese service says he served two tours of duty there and was awarded numerous awards both for merit and for valor. Show me the evidence to indicate otherwise.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. Soldiers with 3 Purple Hearts don't "cheat" their way out

Yes, he got an early out, but of course, at the very, very beginning he requested an "early in".

Contrast this with G.W.Bush's engineering an "early out" by NEVER BEING IN!

[Devil Dog Dem]

4. Not to be pedantic, but Kerry wasn't a soldier

He was a naval officer (you can call him a sailor if you like).

Marines, sailors, airmen, and coastguardsmen are not soldiers. That title is reserved for members of the U.S. Army.

Semper fi.

[Devil Dog Dem]

5. Not to be pedantic, but Kerry wasn't a soldier

He was a naval officer (you can call him a sailor if you like).

Marines, sailors, airmen, and coastguardsmen are not soldiers. That title is reserved for members of the U.S. Army.

Semper fi.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. Serviceman

I'd say that shoe fits all, and captures the spirit of the matter- or esprit de corps, if you will.

Semper fi back at 'ya.

[OrdinaryTa]

11. Kerry Served Four Months

Kerry served four months, substantially less than a full tour. The issue has resonance now, especially among our soldiers in Iraq. They know what it means to exploit a technicality in the regs to get out early. It's barely tolerable when an enlisted man does it. But when an officer pulls a stunt like that, it's chickenshit.

[sandnsea]

14. He served two tours

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/ma__democrats_kerry_20031.shtml

John Kerry, who was wounded three times during his time in Vietnam, asked for and received a reassignment that allowed him to leave the combat zone in April 1969, six months before his second tour of duty was scheduled to end, according to a published report.

Commodore Charles F. Horne, commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served, said recipients of three Purple Hearts could make such a request under then-existing naval rules and it was "above board and proper."

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/ma__democrats_kerry_20031.shtml

[Mairead]

22. Didn't he serve his truncated second tour as cdr of a fugu boat, tho?

One of those boats that, if you got hit, one hit was enough? One of those boats that could be heard a mile away and operated in waterways so narrow that the VC could practically jump on board from shore?

Or am I confused?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

25. you are correct

It's almost pathetic how the Kerry-haters attempt to paint his service in Vietnam as a negative.
Post 9/11 this just won't fly.

[papau]

2. He was informed that he was eligible to leave if he applied - he

applied - it was approved - he left.

A brave - and an intelligent - man who followed standard procedures all the way, unlike AWOL who just said no.

[ComerPerro]

3. I don't support Kerry, but

I have to agree with you. I don't see anything cowardly about what he did. At least he was over there, and didn't just go through the motions (like Bush).

[OrdinaryTa]

12. Kerry the Finagler

I don't see anything cowardly about what he did

The troops in Iraq will certainly see Kerry's string-pulling for the chickenshit it was. The issue resonates with fighting men because it suggests that Kerry, a commissioned officer, shirked his duty.

After only four months in country, Kerry decided he'd been there, done that. Kerry's next duty station was in New York City as an admiral's aide. What an amazing streak of luck!

[Noordam]

21. 16 months in Nam with Three purple hearts is my count

I do not think any service people in Iraq would be upset at this once told this was his second trip over and on the first trip he did 12 months. no

16 months in country and 3 purple hearts is enough.

[sangh0]

24. That's a lie!!

Kerry served 16 months, not four, and you know that.

[w4rma]

15. What Sen. Kerry did wasn't just uncowardly, it was downright brave

1 and a half 365 day tours in Vietnam is not uncowardly. 1 and a half 365 day tours in Vietnam (combat duty, btw) is very brave. I can't think of a way to express enough respect for this man with words.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. AWOL never even waited to be asked.

He left the table before that hand was ever dealt. The slimy scumbag.

[OrdinaryTa]

10. Standard Procedures

... followed standard procedures

Actually what Kerry did was very irregular. It's practically unheard of for an officer to exploit a loophole in the regulations to avoid serving a full tour. Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry flew back to the United States after only four months in combat.

Kerry's amazing streak of luck also got him a plum job in his next assignment - as an Admiral's aide in New York City. On the surface it certainly looks like Kerry pulled strings, but who can say? However, if he gets the nomination, investigative reporters will be all over this.

Kerry seems to have pulled strings to get his crew transferred to safe jobs as well. Why did the Navy approve this irregular personnel request? It wasn't in the Navy's interest to do this - those men had to be replaced.

The facts, which aren't in dispute, suggest that Kerry used his connections in exchange for favors for himself and the sailors who'd squawk to the press later on. This is not heroic.

[sangh0]

30. More lies

It's practically unheard of

Is it? Really? Do you have any evidence that it's "unheard of"?

exploit a loophole

Loophole? What loophole? Or is "loophole" your word for "rules that apply to everyone"?

Healthy

Healthy? Did you give him a medical exam?

it certainly looks like

Ahhh, the "certainly looks like" ploy, as in "it certainly looks like Clinton "Wagged the Dog" "

pulled strings

Ahhh, the imaginary "strings" ploy, which doesn't detail one "string"

Why did the Navy approve this irregular personnel request?

What was "irregular" about it? Oh yeah, "it certainly looks like" it's irregular. There's no need to explain it because it CERTAINLY looks like it is irregular

The facts, which aren't in dispute

Nope. No one is disputing OT's "Facts". That's why he feels the need to repeat these "facts" daily. Because we all know what "it certainly looks like"

[blm]

8. Let's be practical about this...if Kerry had cheated

wouldn't Nixon have used it when Kerry was leading protests? Wouldn't it have been on the Nixon tapes?

Wouldn't Reagan and Bush have used it when Kerry was exposing BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning?

[OrdinaryTa]

9. Purple Hearts Aren't Adjudicated

Purple hearts aren't adjudicated but that's the likely effect of a policy making each such award count one-third toward a ticket out of country. Kerry's unit commander seems to have awarded these things somewhat carelessly, perhaps because he didn't think any of his officers would do what Kerry did.

Kerry didn't do anything illegal; the correct word is chickenshit. But it's not unusual. There were lots of chickenshit officers in Vietnam; there are lots of them in every war. Kerry however is palming himself off as a war hero, despite having exploited a loophole to avoid serving the remaining two-thirds of his tour. After only four months in combat, Kerry announced: Been there, done that.

It's not scandalous that John Kerry is less than he presents himself to be. That's a politician for you! But Kerry won't be able to hide his unheroic war record if he gets the Democratic nomination.

[Dookus]

13. I don't care if you're there for a day or a decade...

THREE purple hearts? Hero. End of story.

[CoffeePlease1947]

20. OrdinaryTa, Can I see your Awards for service to this country?

How many you you have? According to you they are easy to get so you should have plenty.

Mike

[blm]

29. If he cheated then Nixon would've been all over him.

And his army of thugs who promoted Kerry as a phony to the press. They would have eaten this up with a spoon. Segretti, Atwater and Rove would have made certain Kerry was exposed.

[blm]

41. Nixon was all over Kerry back then....

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml
>>>>>>
The White House feared him like no other protester.

Colson, in a secret memo, revealed he had a mission to target Kerry: "Destroy the young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader."

The effort by Nixon and his aides to undermine Kerry went much deeper than even Kerry realized. Yet it is this chapter in his life, as much as any other, that helped turn Kerry into a national political figure. By targeting Kerry, the Nixon White House boosted his stature in ways that still are having an impact.

But at the same time, many of the issues that Nixon and his aides raised more than 30 years ago about Kerry still remain. Echoes of Colson's words can still be heard in Washington: "He's politically ambitious and just looking for an issue, a phony."

Yet even Nixon described Kerry as an articulate and impressive spokesman. The Nixon White House began an investigation of Kerry. Who was he, the Nixonites wanted to know. What was his real motivation? And how could they stop him?
>>>>>

[Bandit]

33. You have been the most vocal about what it takes to be a war hero

I think by reading your posts to date you have not a clue what you are talking about. It is obvious you have some sort of axe to grind against Senator Kerry but you are making a fool out of yourself. I have no doubt that Senator Kerry did every thing that was required of him and beyond and that he is quite deserving of high praise and not your rancor.

[pbeal]

39. Must...Not....smack....moron....upside...head

Sen Kerry Sereved 16 months in Veitnam, not 4 months he also was awarded a bronze star, and a silver star to go along with his THREE purple hearts.

I think that may be enough ground combat for a Sailor its sure the hell enough for an infantryman.

Anyhow why dont you pull out YOUR DD214 and compare it to Sen Kerrys. He beats mine by a silver star, 3 purple hearts 13 months in a combat zone.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. Will this be an issue? Who's going to call him on it? Mr. Bush*,

who didn't finish his Texas Air National Guard tour of duty?

One of the other Dems? None of them are veterans at all. Two (Kucinich, Dean) had medical exemptions or deferments. I don't know why the others didn't serve.

[Bunny]

18. Well, Mr. Bush

impugned the reputation of John McCain, POW, by saying that he sold out his fellow POW's, was a traitor, etc. I have no delusions that bush will use any military issues he can about Kerry, true or otherwise.

[KoKo]

40. Gephardt served......that was a surprise to me but he did.......there was

a post about it here. My only problem is I can't remember......was it airforce?

[Shanty Oilish]

17. Try the freepers

Bet they'll have that info...true or not.

[CoffeePlease1947]

19. Some people are really sick--anyone that would attack Kerry on his war

record would also make fun of a mentally disabled person and push over people in wheel chairs. I pray to God they get struck by lightening and die. And I am a nice person. But this really really low, and lower than Chambliss. Leave the Democratic Party, you heartless sick bastards!

Mike

[Spentastic]

23. Black and White, Black and White

There are often shades of grey.

This is also quite funny

"I pray to God they get struck by lightening and die. And I am a nice person. "

as far as oxymorons go.

I don't have an axe to grind but I am interested to know how three purple hearts can be recieved for wounds that didn't keep Kerry out of action for more than two days. Selling yourself as a "war Hero" may not be wise if you're not.

[Bandit]

28. IMHO he is a war hero.

I have been to the Nam and have no doubts that Senator Kerry did all he was supposed to do and beyond. What, if I may ask, are your qualifications to make the assumptions you have? I think by your posts to date that you have not a clue of what you speak.

[Spentastic]

35. Er?

Sorry there appears to be a communication problem here.

I'm just asking questions. Since when has that been a problem.

Was it the norm for people to get three purple hearts that didn't keep them out of action for more than 2 days?

Was it the norm for people with three purple hearts to get released to easier duty?

What proof do you have to offer to support your assertions?

As I say I have no axe to grind. Personally, I'm not bothered whether Kerry served honorably or not. I would like to know if people are saying things about him that are not true either way.

[Eloriel]

26. Oh, please, Please

Get a grip, will you?

Should we also not attack a Lt. Calley on HIS "war record," or a Gen. Powell for HIS participation in that "war"?

There are actually other things about Kerry's "war record" that no doubt will surface in the months to come.

It's fine to support Kerry, even tho *I* certainly can't understand it, but don't be freeperish-blind, eh?

Eloriel

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. But Kerry stayed a liberal, as did Kerrey

instead of turning into right wing nutsoids, they remained liberal, and came back here to fight for their constituents.
Thank God for minor miracles. We'll take 'em!

[sangh0]

32. Oh please. Please

Get a grip, will you?

Should we also not attack a Dr. Dean on HIS "war record"?

There are actually other things about Dean's "war record" that no doubt will surface in the months to come.

It's fine to support Dean, even tho *I* certainly can't understand it, but don't be freeperish-blind, eh?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

27. heh

what a twit

[Octafish]

34. Boston Globe: Kerry is a war hero. And an anti-war hero.

John Kerry served two tours of Vietnam. He was eligible to leave after being wounded in combat three times and he requested to do so. He also asked to leave the military service early in order to do what he thought was best — become active in the anti-war community. He could not do so legally as an officer of the US Navy.

From the GLOBE:

EXCERPT...

John Kerry returned from Vietnam in April 1969, having won early transfer out of the conflict because of his three Purple Hearts. He asked for a cushy assignment - service as an admiral's aide - and was given precisely that job in Brooklyn. Kerry had thought about running for public office long before he had gone to Vietnam. But when he returned from the war, he wasn't greeted as a hero, like the soldiers of his father's generation. Kerry found that being a veteran could be a drawback, especially in Eastern Massachusetts, where he hoped to run for the US House.

"I just came back really concerned about it and upset about it and angry about it," Kerry said. "It took me a little while to decompress. I saw someone who said, `What happened to you? Your eyes are sunk way back in your head.' The tension and the trauma in your life took its toll."

When Kerry returned to the United States, the country's troop strength in Vietnam was at its height - 543,000. To that date, 33,400 Americans had been killed, and the number of protests was surging. But during this time, Kerry was still a naval officer and not publicly protesting the war.

It was his sister, Peggy, who was involved in the antiwar movement. One day in October 1969, Peggy Kerry was working in the New York office of a Vietnam War protest group that was planning a "moratorium" peace rally in Washington, which would draw 250,000 protesters one month later. A leader in the New York protest, Adam Walinsky, a former speechwriter for Robert F. Kennedy, said he needed a pilot and plane to take him around the state on Oct. 15. Did anyone know a pilot?

Peggy Kerry said she would provide such a volunteer: her brother.

CONTINUED...

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

Here's the best summation I've read on his service as a commanding officer in combat:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

The series main page:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/

[Spentastic]

36. That's what I 've been looking for

Seems reasonable to me.

Thanks

[Bandit]

38. Thank you ~ That is all I asked for ~ A link to address the issue

You are the best :bounce: :beer: have one on me :beer: