What if ONE hijacker/pilot with ONE friend w/gun had killed 10,000

[ElementaryPenguin]

on 9-11 - by hitting one of the Twin Towers at a peak hour?? Let's say the hijackers happened to be of Saudi descent, living for many years in San Diego. Would it then make any sense whatsoever to pulverize an entire country - or even region - to avenge an apparent suicide killing - even if this one caused 3 times as many deaths as actually did occur?? Would it be any less ridiculous than bombing the entire state of Illinois, because of the actions of a handful of Mafia mobsters in Chicago?

Whether you're a LIHOP/MIHOP believer or not - BushCo's "war" on terror response to what was essentially a criminal act - is as patently absurd and ridiculous as it is unquestionably illegal!!
A "war" on terror is about as practical, winnable, and ultimately as useless as a "war" on lying!!!

Gee, hasn't Sharon's strategy of "avenging" suicide killings been proven tremendously effective at curbing violence in that region? You'd think by now they'd have figured out that every time you murder a "terrorist" (a killer without an expensive military uniform) you've probably created a hundred more!! Might it not make a wee bit more sense, and possibly be just a tad more effective for countries like the U.S. and Israel to actually ONCE AND FOR ALL ADDRESS THESE PEOPLE'S GRIEVANCES - THE CAUSES THAT PEOPLE OF THE WORLD ARE ROUTINELY WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES FOR???

A war on terror might actually be argued as a war on human nature - for through the ages, every time there's been a mighty "Goliath" dominating the scene, instinctively a "David" little guy is going to resort to picking up the nearest "equalizer" stone. It's really as simple and as basic as that!

[stopthegop]

1. nice job of equating

action against guys carrying guns with action against mothers carrying babies..
guess we disagree

[StandWatie]

3. it doesn't work

Check Russia vs. Chechnya for an example of an even clumsier and more brutal "War on Some Terrorists" for an example of the failure of this tactic.

[ElementaryPenguin]

5. What the f..ck are you talking about???

Do you care one twit about all the innocents murdered who had not any more to do with 9-11 than you or me??

[TheYellowDog]

25. I don't care one twit

n/t.

[ElementaryPenguin]

27. In that case, you've got a very appropriate user name...

And I find it hard to believe you're not a Repuke!

[Trek234]

62. Incredible!

I have several people on ignore, including the person you responded to because I suspect they are... well I don't want to break DU rules by making accusations.

I find it very interesting, however, that largely when I see an "ignored" there are posts under it upset about whatever the poster had written.

Guess I choose well.

[Sterling]

64. It seems these threads really attract the "patriotic" riff raff indeed.

I choose not to use the ignore feature as it shields me from the reality that there are morons everywhere even on DU. As long as DU allows them to stay it is up to the humans to make sure they are not allowed to spew their hateful right wing rhetoric without being checked. DU really does us all a disservice by allowing this kind of thing to go on in my opinion.

A small blemish on an otherwise wonderful place full of mostly wonderful people.

[arcane1]

2. there you go using reason again... what have we told you?

reason, logic, etc, were voted out in 2000, welcome to the funhouse

[ElementaryPenguin]

12. Sorry. Forgot again. Welcome to the Chimp House!

Reason, logic and the Constitution!!

[blondeatlast]

70. Constitution? I thought John Ashcroft sold it on E-Bay?!

[Blue_Chill]

16. So you think we should have done what?

When the Taliban refused to hand Osama over we should have done what? Said "thanks anyway, let us know if you change your mind?"

[bryant69]

4. Essentially a Criminal Act?

What do you mean by this, just out of curiousity? What laws did President Bush break?

Terrorists have organizations; al-Queda for example. They seem to be in teh press a lot. What's wrong with trying to elminate that organization?

There are grievances we might address; particularly in regards to the Palestinian situation. But others of their grievances I"m not sure we can; I'm pretty sure, for example, that we aren't ready to abandon modernity for a 14th century definition of Islam. At any rate it's not an either or situation. We should go after both those terrorist organizations and those conditions in the Middle East that make terrorism a good idea.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ElementaryPenguin]

6. You can't declare a "war" against an organization rather than a state!

And you can't preemptively attack a nation! According to the "official" Chimp House story - how many Afghans and how many Iraqis were among the hijackers?? Wasn't is somewhere around fucking ZERO??!!

[bryant69]

7. I don't know

what number "fucking ZERO??!!" is supposed to represent; I think that there were no Iraqis or Afghans involved in 9/11. I'm certainly not defending Bush's invasion of Iraq. But Afghanistan was being used as a terrorist training ground.

I feel like i've got metaphrical spittle on my collar; you aren't upset are you?

[ElementaryPenguin]

9. Pakistan is STILL used as a terrorist training ground - so why have

We not bombed them into oblivion?? I apologize for my aggresive tone - sorry to take it out on you. But BushCo's outrageous and shameless exploitation of 9-11 literally makes my blood boil!!

[StandWatie]

10. Don't know about Pakistan

I know there are Mujahedin-e Khalq camps in "New Iraq" that we allow to continue working in the War on Some Terrorists.

on edit: I actually don't give a piss if they do, but I'm sure Iran does care that we are harboring a "terrorist" (even to our state department standards) army on their eastern border while we accuse them of supporting terrorists.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Why?

Didn't the U.S. declare war against the Barbary Pirates in the 1800s? They weren't a nation, just a band of cutthroats.

[Sinistrous]

19. Reading comprehension 101.

The "criminal act" referred to was the attack on the WTC, not any thing bush did. Although bush is guilty of many criminal acts, Penquin was not referring to them here. He did say that bush's response to the criminal act was illegal, and that statement is correct, if one considers international and moral law.

[rock]

8. Not punishing the guilty but punishing the innocent

(as far as I can tell based on the evidence) doesn't make sense to me. Of course, I'm not a conservative.

[ElementaryPenguin]

11. Where is Bin Laden, where is Saddam, where is the anthrax killer

Where is Dick Cheney, for that matter? Are they all going to be miraculously apprehended the week of the election??

[kentuck]

14. Excellent question EP !

I think we need to answer tht question. Was it a criminal act by a few people or was it an act of war by a nation state? It is an important distinction. Since the majority of the hijackers were of Saudi descent, should we not attack Saudi Arabia? Where does the rationale end? The Saudis would seem like a more logical target than the Iraqis....but the Saudis didn't try to kill my daddy???

[ElementaryPenguin]

18. Clearly. if there is a state to be held accountable, it is Saudi Arabia -

And NOT Iraq or Afghanistan!

[Blue_Chill]

15. The Taliban were asked to turn Osama Over

I'm sorry but I don't see the injustice here. A state aided a terrorist that was involved with a attack on the US. When asked to turn said terrorist over to us they refused. Thus one must conclude they supported the attack and that my friends is an act of war.

Maybe next time a terrorist attacks us the goverment aiding him will have learned from this and avoid another war.

[ElementaryPenguin]

17. The guy representing us personally in this demand was found to

Have ordered the wiring of $100,000 to Mohamed Atta!! Sound just a bit suspicious??

[Blue_Chill]

20. Save the strawman for someone else

They were asked to turn him over and they did not.

[ElementaryPenguin]

23. So, if tomorrow we asked Russia to turn over Putin, and they refused

We would be justified in attacking that country?? No one offered the Taliban any evidence - and ChimpCo said there would be NO talks - "the time for talk is over!" I believe those were the exact words of the Evil Dictator War Chimp!

[Blue_Chill]

26. You think this was the first time Osama's name came up

That guy's been linked to terrorists for a long time now. This wasn't some name out of a hat that caught the poor democratically elected extremely liberal Taliban off gaurd. They made their choice and right now you are grasping at straws.

[ElementaryPenguin]

39. Than you explain to me, ChimpCo's justification for linking Saddam to 9-11

We'll see who's dreaming!

[Blue_Chill]

40. You are still dreaming if you think I support the War on Iraq

I thought then that removing Saddam would not help the US or the war on terror in anyway. I have been proven correct in what I see happening so far.

However I do not share this notion that it is illegal to remove a ruthless dictator. Coming from Chile I wish that some nation had come our way and bombed Pinochet the fuck out.

[govegan]

54. If you are truly from Chile, then you must know how Pinochet

got "the fuck in." Do you not?

CIA documents have been declassified revealing what many knew or suspected long ago, that Nixon and his thugs did not feel that a democratically elected socialist was acceptable to one certain nation. After its involvement in creating an environment conducive to a coup, the US pumped massive aid into Pinochet's military regime.

Conservative elements in the US have long been inimical, or downright hostile, to democracy when the results do not go their way. As today they cannot tolerate democracy in Iraq that might allow the true choices of the governed to have power.

How ironic that the coup in Chile was also on Sept. 11, thirty years ago.

[Blue_Chill]

57. Yes I am truely from Chile, born in Santiago.

got "the fuck in." Do you not?

Yes I am well aware of how the US's cold war cost us our democracy and many lives.

CIA documents have been declassified revealing what many knew or suspected long ago, that Nixon and his thugs did not feel that a democratically elected socialist was acceptable to one certain nation. After its involvement in creating an environment conducive to a coup, the US pumped massive aid into Pinochet's military regime.

You know these new documents piss me off. Did you know that in my junior year of highschool (95/96) I read that in my history book? Now all these angry liberals are waltzing arounf faking like this is new shit.

Just because many of you didn't know jack about it until you dicovered the 9/11 coincidence doesn't mean this shit is new.

And the irony of it is not lost on me however I suffer for it because I feel horrible for all involved. Did you know the RW in Chile want to celebrate today? They have the cops out on the street because the left has threatened to kill anyone publically celebrating. Amazing.

[ElementaryPenguin]

59. Exactly, G! Democracy is the last thing BushCo's fascist regime wants

Taking root ANYWHERE!

[notadmblnd]

60. Seems to me that I recall Clinton had issued orders to go after BinLadin

And when the little chimperor took office, the dogs were called off.
I also remember a country that had offered to turn BinLadin over to the US (might have been Iraq) and the offer was declined.

I think what really made this misadministration want to attack the taliban was not their refusal to turn over BinLadin but was the Unocal deal that fell through one month before 9-11. The words I recall that were reported used with the taliban were "We can shower you with money or we can rain bombs on you". Basically the taliban was given a take it or leave it option. They chose to leave it.

I'm off to do my homework now because I know someone is going to say there is no proof to my statements. So I'll be back to post the links when I find them.

[notadmblnd]

61. I'm back

I'm baack! Here's teh first link
http://villagevoice.com/issues/0144/gould.php

Snip: Osama bin Laden could have been in U.S. custody five years ago if Washington had accepted an offer from the Sudanese government. So says UN ambassador and major general Elfatih Erwa, who, as Sudan's then minister of state for defense, flew from Khartoum to Washington for secret negotiations with the CIA in 1996.


Heres the Unocal story.
http://villagevoice.com/issues/0144/gould.php
snip:

According to the French daily Libération, Khalilzad's $200 million project was originally conceived to run 830 miles from Dauletebad in southeastern Turkmenistan to Multan, Pakistan. Multan already possesses a link to Karachi. Partly on Khalilzad's advice, the Clinton Administration funded the Taliban through Pakistani intelligence, going so far as to pay the salaries of high-ranking Taliban officials. The goal: a strong, stable authoritarian regime in Kabul to ensure the safety of Unocal's precious oil.

In 1998, after Taliban "guest" Osama bin Laden bombed two American embassies in east Africa, Unocal shelved the plan. Chief consultant Khalilzad moved on to the Rand Corporation think tank. Considering the Taliban irredeemably unreliable, Clinton withdrew U.S. support. But as the newly-minted cliché goes, everything changed after 9-11. Now the Taliban are gone, replaced with a U.S.-installed interim government.


heres the shower money thing

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SilkRoad.html
snip:

When negotiations with the Taliban broke down in July, the Bush administration began to take a hard stance against the Taliban. According to French authors Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie in their book “Bin Laden: The Forbidden Truth”, during the last of the meetings with the Taliban in August, the U.S. envoy, Christina Rocca, head of Central Asian Affairs for the State Department, met with the Taliban ambassador in Islamabad, Pakistan, and told him to “accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs”.



In the months before September 11, President Bush ordered the FBI to back off investigations into Bin Laden family members.





“In the eight weeks since the attacks, over 1,000 suspects and potential witnesses have been detained. Yet, just days after the hijackers took off from Boston aiming for the Twin Towers, a special charter flight out of the same airport whisked 11 members of Osama Bin Laden’s family off to Saudi Arabia. That did not concern the White House. Their official line is that the Bin Ladens are above suspicion – apart from Osama, the ‘black sheep’, who they say hijacked the family name. That’s fortunate for the Bush family and the Saudi royal household, whose links with the Bin Ladens could otherwise prove embarrassing.” – Greg Palast, from a BBC Newsnight investigative report, which can be seen at http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/attack22.ram

Please read the links, google some of the key phrases, find out what all this is really about and determine yourself who is right and who is wrong. I'm afraid we reap what we sow and our government has been sowing a garden of weeds for a long time.

IMO The US Government and corporate entities have merged with this administration and every one of the SOB's should be tried for treason. I for one did not bring my son into this world to die for corporate americas greed and I will leave this country before I let that happen.

I replied to you with this post because I felt that we're both thinking along the same lines.

[ElementaryPenguin]

63. Really excellent work, comrade!!

Thanks for all your effort - and we are on the same track!

[ElementaryPenguin]

21. Under exactly what authority could the U.S. demand Bin Laden

be turned over by anyone?? What court had convicted him at that point? Where was the evidence? Where IS the evidence? Why were 150 Bin Laden family members flown out of the U.S. when all other air traffic was grounded - BEFORE they could be thoroughly be interviewed/interrogated by the FBI??

[Blue_Chill]

29. look if you want to go on living in dream land

fine. But when you are ready to come out from under that rock and accept the fact that Osama is a terrorist, then we can continue this discussion.

I'm not going to enter in tin hat theory wars with you.

[ElementaryPenguin]

35. Osama IS certainly a terrorist - but he's got nowhere near the power that

The world's most fierce terrorists have - Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, and Georgie Poorgie Bushitler!!!

[Blue_Chill]

37. Ok so what?

He is a terrorist and should have been turned over.

[ElementaryPenguin]

43. I guess I'm waiting for Bush to be turned over for his war crimes.

I hope someone turns Bin Laden in - it's not like I'm a fan of the ruthless murderous fuck!! But what precisely he had to do with 9-11 I don't pretend to know!

[Blue_Chill]

52. Don't wait for things that will never happen

In the real world the deaths of innocent people caused by politics are written off. Sad but true, perhaps one day that will change but I don't see it happening soon.

[ElementaryPenguin]

56. It may well be true - but it doesn't mean we have to accept injustice!!

No improvements will "happen soon" if we don't start kicking ass, demanding the truth, and working for change!

[Blue_Chill]

58. you don't have to like it

but you do have to accept it. The problem is in human nature. people want to ignore stuff like this because when it all comes down to it 99% of the world just wants to live their lives, raise their kids or what have you and not worry about everyone else.

[Sterling]

69. If that were true.

There would still be slavery in the US. Actually the list goes on forever throughout the history of mankind’s development.

If what you say was true we would still be in caves dragging women around by the hair.

[Sterling]

67. It certainly won't happen with that attitude.

Being complacent is not a virtue.

[Sterling]

66. I don't see where there is any tin foil

Facts are facts. We hustled the Saudis out of the country without questioning any of them. As long as you chose to ignore important elements of the story you will have uninformed opinions.

But I think it is great you post them here anyway. It gives objective readers a chance to witness how flimsy the PNACs version of events is.

[Sterling]

68. "Osama is a terrorist"

Maybe, maybe not. I would like to see some proof. Maybe it's just me but I believe in the American justice system we used to have.

All I can say about OBL for sure is our CIA considered him a valuable asset for a long time.

[Blue_Chill]

30. duplicate

.

[Blue_Chill]

31. Duplicate

.

[StandWatie]

22. Haiti asked us to turn over a terrorist

Namely, Emmanuel Constant. We told them to get bent. I'm really not sure if I'm arguing that Haiti should have bombed Washington DC over it or that the US should have been more tactful but we don't play by the same rules as everyone else and the hypocrisy sucks.

[ElementaryPenguin]

24. It certainly does, SW!

eom

[Blue_Chill]

28. I'd have to see what he did

but if he really was a terrorist we should have turned him over. However a mistake in the past does not mean you have to allow a terrorist that kills nearly 3000 people get away with it.

[StandWatie]

32. what he did..

http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/constant.htm

It's a long complicated story but he basically ran a machette-wielding death squad and led attacks on US Marines at CIA direction for reasons it would be hard to sumarize quickly.

The whole story speaks volumes about how much you want to trust the Government as it goes about "anti-terrorism" escapades.

[Blue_Chill]

33. Sounds like the typical CIA

I'm Chilean none of that shocks me. I agree the dude should have been turned over. Just like Osama should have been.

[0rganism]

42. The Taliban gov't asked for evidence against Bin Laden

They offered to extradite him if given evidence that he was behind the attacks. No evidence was provided, only an ultimatum.

Have YOU seen any evidence that Osama Bin Laden was the perp?

[ElementaryPenguin]

46. Thanks for the backup, O!

Right on!

[Blue_Chill]

47. No they offered to extradite him

to a Islamic nation. That is not good enough and they knew that.

Once again I'm not getting into the prove it nonsense. The man has been a known terrorist for a long time now, this was nothing new and certainly no surprise to the Taliban.

[StandWatie]

44. but would you agree..

That Haiti had a theoretical right to bomb Washington DC and unseat the government here because we didn't?

[Blue_Chill]

49. You have made your point

but I'm sadly going to have to point out that theory does not tranfer over to the real world. Nations that can demand do so, nations that can not do not. If Haiti was large enough to truely threaten the US I'd like to think that a democracy would not risk the lives of it's people for the life of a terrorist.

On the other hand a group like the Taliban would risk their people because they couldn't care less for them in the first place. In the end no matter where you stand a democracy is the way to avoid conflicts of this nature.

[ElementaryPenguin]

53. Having said all that - the Taliban is back - and the U.S. - Afghan war

Has JUST begun!! As has the Iraqi Chimp Quagmire!

[Blue_Chill]

55. I wouldn't say they are back

because they are not what they once were. But much like cancer if you don't wipe it our completely it will return.

[Pastiche423]

34. Where is the evidence

that a terrorist killed 3,000 people?

A few days after September 11, 2001, Powell promised a white paper (evidence) was forthcoming.

That white paper never came.

[Blue_Chill]

36. Ok so let me get this straight

The names of the terrorists on the plane, the video of them getting on, the pilot taining, all this is what? Perhaps you want a taped confession?

[ElementaryPenguin]

41. And it was BIN LADEN that had all the jet fighters stand down and not

Intercept?? Bin Laden that sent enough anthrax to kill 100,000 people to Patriot Bill opposition leader Tom Daschle - Bin Laden that told Bush and Cheney to start taking Cipro 4 weeks before anthrax is delivered to anyone??!! Bin Laden that told John Ashcroft to quit flying commerically, Bin Laden who told Bush not to employ any air marshalls AFTER being the hijackings were extremely likely?!

[Pastiche423]

45. Where did the names come from?

What about the named "terrorists" that have shown up alive?

No video has been shown of any "terrorist" getting on a plane.

What about the pilot training? whistle ass et al ignored it.

Perhaps I would like some real evidence?

I do not buy the official story. Do you? And if you do, why?

[Blue_Chill]

50. sigh

Where did the names come from?"

Intel agencies. Yes they dropped the ball on this one, that has already been established.


What about the named "terrorists" that have shown up alive?

Show me proof of a 9/11 hijacker is alive. Not involved mind you but one of the hijackers themselves.

No video has been shown of any "terrorist" getting on a plane.

That's only beacuse the cameras are set up point at the security section not the actual airplane door.

What about the pilot training? whistle ass et al ignored it.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

I do not buy the official story. Do you? And if you do, why?

Occam's Razor

[Sterling]

73. "I have no idea what you are saying here. "

It is clear you have never bothered to put the slightest bit of objective scrutiny to any of these issues.

May I suggest a trip to:
Cooperativeresearch.org

Your opinion on the matter is based on very little research and much "faith" in agencies you yourself admit have a proven track record of dastardly deeds.

If you had bothered to spend one quarter of the time you do arguing with people on this site reading up on the subject matter you would not have to say things like:


"I have no idea what you are saying here. "

[Sterling]

71. None of what you listed constitutes evidence that OBL was

involved. The "facts" you have eluded to are questionable themselves. They would not stand up in a court of law. Maybe that is why there is no court involved?

[ElementaryPenguin]

38. The Chimp House was hoping we'd forget!!

eom

[Pastiche423]

48. Ayup

And it's kinda hard to forget the other hundreds of thousands of unanswered questions, dontcha think?

[ElementaryPenguin]

51. All part of the Rovian Blitzkrieg!! BushCo attacking us on so many fronts

We can't possibly keep up with all of their outrageous crimes!!
:puke:

[MacCovern]

72. Bin Laden's videotaped confession....

You failed to mention the damning videotape confession of Osama:

"Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit, and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for," bin Laden said.


"We were at (inaudible) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. ... Immediately we heard the news that the plane had hit the World Trade Center," bin Laden said. "We turned the radio station to the news from Washington. The news continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end of the newscast, they reported that a plane had just hit the World Trade Center.

"After a little while, they announced that another plane had hit the World Trade Center. The brothers who heard the news were overjoyed by it."

That is enough evidence for me and most clear thinking people!

[Sterling]

74. Please provide a source.

For this claim:

"We were at (inaudible) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous
Thursday that the event would take place that day.

[MacCovern]

75. More on Bin Laden's videotaped confession

Here are a couple of sources for the videotaped confession:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.quotes/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/1709425.stm

If that video isn't enough to convince anyone, nothing will convince them!

[Sterling]

76. I think this deserves it's own thread.

I will start one. I followed the reporting on the video very closly as did most people on DU at the time but this is the first I have heard of these quotes.

Lets run it through the blender.

Thanks for the link.

As I recall the authenticity of this video itself has been questioned as well as the US government’s interpretation. I would like to bring some attention to it so it can be addressed again here. Maybe you can participate in the new thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=322991

[Sterling]

65. I would have a lot easier time buying the Afghan war if...

We had actually conducted it in a manner that would lead me to believe we were hunting OBL and his gang. But seeing as how we allowed several hundred of OBL's men to fly out to Pakistan I don't by it.

Even now they claim to "know where he is" within a 40 mile radius but we don't bother to go after him why?


I am just not that naive I guess.


Unlike Bush I really would like to see OBL brought to justice.