Dean is coming across as an amature

[jeter]

For the record I will support one of two candidates: Howard Dean or Wesley Clark. I remember writing posts favorable to Dean when no one else knew who he was.

He would appear on this talk show called "The editors" (when I lived in Canada) a Canadian/US panel discussion show which included Canadian and American editors as well as Canadian and American politicians. He was then the governor of Vermont.

I liked the things he said. He was liberal, like me, but not over the top tin-foil hat type of stuff. A plain spoken practical liberal.

Anyway, I would tell people "watch out for Dean." When no one knew who he was. And sure enough. He began to surge in the polls. I still like the guy. But he has made some stupid little mistakes. For instance, he is allowing the DLC and Lieberman to define his candidacy. This is the mistake Gore made. Allowing Bush to define him. He should be defining himself. Second, that stupid thing he said about being the only one to talk about Civil Rights. Now this whole thing with Clark being VP.

It makes Dean look bad. Every time I see Clark on TV, as I did yesterday with Bill Maher on HBO, he just appears confident and unapologetic. He is, who he is. I think Clark has the best chance against Bush. But I still support Dean more on the issues.

I still say a Dean/Clark ticket would be unbeatable. But Dean has to stop these stupid little mistakes. They are what will kill him. Remember "I invented the internet." I know it was taken out of context. But it was the sort of thing the GOP latch on to. We need discipline. Let Dean be Dean, yes. But he has to control his own message and not allow it to be distorted by others. That is his number one problem as of right now.

Just some thoughts. Not meant to be a flamefest.

[theboss]

1. I agree

Right now, my top three choices are Dean, Edwards, and maybe Clark once I learn more about him.

I like Dean. I like his energy. I like the fact that he has people excited. I like his bravery.

I don't like the fact that he keeps saying stupid things and has to keep correcting himself.

He needs to get on message well before he wins the nomination (if he does) because the White House will eat him alive if he keeps up the shoot-from-the-hip style.

I fear that his Vermont background is really a hindrance here. I mean, it's not like there was a pack of reporters following him around everyday and making a record of everything he said. He could slip up at a pancake breakfast in Burlington and no one would remember it by noon. That's not going to happen with CNN, Fox, and MSNBC.

He's smart though so I assume he will figure this out.

[StandWatie]

2. what did he do stupid?

I actually thought that last flap he handled pretty well and Lieberman and Pelosi came off as hysterical fools.

[AWD]

3. Dean punched his mother in the head

becasuse breakfast was late

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. She won't make that mistake again!

lol.

[SweetZombieJesus]

4. I'm sorry, I find it hard to discuss this seriously when you can't spell

"amateur" correctly.

[catpower2000]

7. LOL! STOP TAKING WORDS OUT OF MY HEAD.

How do you DO that??

Cat

[Pastiche423]

9. I thought he/she was trying to spell

"immature".

lol

[blondeatlast]

14. Me too.

[TahitiNut]

19. I thought "armature" ...

... and didn't know whether it was in the sense of a dynamo, ironic, or protective anatomical parts. :shrug:

[Woodstock]

31. I thought is was "a mature" presumed man would follow

:)

[Bertrand]

15. non sequitur

and a weak one at that.

[synthia]

16. that's sad to hear. you should work on your focus.

with time and effort you can overcome this disability and concentrate on ideas instead of just words.

[SweetZombieJesus]

21. It's called a JOKE

Christ, lighten up people. I didn't realize it was against the law to make fun of a spelling error now.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Section A, paragraph 5, sub-section 22, line 4

of the Patriot Act. I nearly missed it myself.

[synthia]

34. oh, a joke? my bad....

i thought it was an attempt to mock and discredit the poster or divert the discussion because it made you uncomfortable.

you are right, it's not against the law to make fun of a spelling error or a spelling cop either.

[Pastiche423]

36. It is difficult to focus

if one does not understand what word the poster meant. When I 1st read it, I thought he/she meant "immature". Not understanding which word it was suppose to be, makes the post unclear.

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. yeah.....right......

on seeing the sentence:

'Dean is coming across as an amature'

we'ew sooooo perplexed. what on earth could this sentance mean?

could it be:

'Dean is coming across as an armature'?
'Dean is coming across as an a mature'?
'Dean is coming across as an immature'?(slightly possible)

yeah....right...

[Cocoa]

5. no flames, but...

if you prefer Clark to Dean, fine, but doing it on the basis of Dean being an amateur really doesn't make sense. Dean has won elections and served as Governor. To this date, Clark has never even run for anything.

[synthia]

18. the poster didn't say he was an amateur

only that he comes off as one. not a minor concern.

[NWHarkness]

6. The Clark VP thing

may have come from Clark's people, it may have been made up out of whole cloth by the media. So how is it Dean's mistake?

All dean has done, at least publicly, is ask Clark to advise his campaign on national security issues.

If that's a mistake, it's one I wish the idiots running the Pentagon would make.

[chimpymustgo]

8. Clark as Dean's VP? Trippi at his worst.

But, it got Dean linked with a winner all day.

Planted story exposed and now over.

[StopTheMorans]

12. a serious question for you, even though all

you do is bash Dean b/c Edwards is doing so poorly. How will Clark's entry affect Edwards? Do you think it will help him or hurt him?

[TLM]

28. Huh where was this "exposed" as a planted story?

"But, it got Dean linked with a winner all day."


Odd and I thought Dean was the frontruner.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

11. How is it Dean's mistake?

Dean was asked about Clark during an interview (I think it was on MSNBC) and said that he spoke to Clark often and thought he would make a great running mate.

Granted, the rumors have only been fueled by Deanies and the media, but the idea of a Dean/Clark ticket WAS suggested by Dean himself.

So yeah, I'd say he's partially responsible.

[TLM]

29. How is that a bad thing? Clark is on Dean's short list for VP.

"Dean was asked about Clark during an interview (I think it was on MSNBC) and said that he spoke to Clark often and thought he would make a great running mate.

Granted, the rumors have only been fueled by Deanies and the media, but the idea of a Dean/Clark ticket WAS suggested by Dean himself.

So yeah, I'd say he's partially responsible."


Oh please that is like saying that Dean is partially responsable for our problems in Iraq because he said that we might have problems in Iraq.

Dean simply said that he thinks Clark would make a great VP, which he would. SO how does that translate into Dean being to blame for some spin from a CNN talking head?

[newyawker99]

47. Hi Jackhammer Jesus!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Woodstock]

32. Dean didn't disclose anything private they talked about

"Most of our conversations have been around my getting advice on defense, and sometime he asks me about domestic issues," Dean said in an interview yesterday. "This is a guy I like a lot. I think he's certainly going to be on everybody's list if he's not the presidential nominee himself." Dean declined to discuss their private conversations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57770-2003Sep10.html

[uptohere]

10. hes not amature, hes a single A player trying to look major league

and it shows.

[StopTheMorans]

13. looks like we've also got an

"amature" speller on the thread (it's "amateur"), and thanks so much for all the insight behind that vicious post you just made, it really helps people to see your point :eyes:

[uptohere]

20. I am a slave to spellcheck, sorry as to the rest...

... forgetting key policy position (SS age), inability to manage his emotions (admittedly improving but not to where a politician ought to be), patently false statements (black talk/white audience comment).

Come on, these things pop up frequently you must have heard.

Now, all major leaguers spent some time in single A and some who come up too early struggle, learn and adjust enough to produce and this is what seems to be happening to Dean. But he obviously has not had his political skills tested hard in Vermont and it does show.

Doesn't make him a bad person or unelectable but it does present additional challenges he has to overcome that he could live without.

Hey the original poster had him playing Legion ball. At least I had him in a professional league !

[TLM]

30. How does an Edwards guy question Dean's experience.

Edwards served one term in congress if I'm not mistaken.

Dean was governor of Vermont for 5 terms in a row.


Now onto your Dean bashing talking points...

"... forgetting key policy position (SS age),"

You mean forgetting his answer to a hypothetical question about the balanced budget amendment back in 1995?

You bashers act like this was some bill Dean pushed or some active policy he fought for. When all this is based on was a question in an interview almost 10 years ago that asked Dean what would have to be done to balance the budget if a balanced budget amendment was passed. Raising the SS age was one possibility he listed.

Since then he has stated dozens of times that he is not in favor of raising the age and would raise or remove the tax cap if it came to it.


"inability to manage his emotions (admittedly improving but not to where a politician ought to be),"

Now that's just bullshit... anybody who could be consistently and snidely attacked by Lieberman while standing right next to him and not haul off and bitch slap that little asshole, is more in control of his emotions than anybody who has ever held the office.

This who short temper talking point is being pushed by the candidates who are so boring that they put you to sleep, trying to spin the fact Dean is so much more exciting and engaging than they are.


"patently false statements (black talk/white audience comment)."

It wasn't false. Dean is the guy who has been talking to white audiences about race, as well as black audiences. And I notice that Edwards wouldn't even say the word race when trying to attack Dean on this. Instead Edwards claims that Dean said he's the only white guy who talks about "civil rights."

It just proves Dean’s point.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Hold up there. This bullshit about Dean "forgetting what he said

in 1995" needs to stop. On August 5, 2003, at the AFL-CIO debate, Dean denied he'd ever supported raising the Social Security retirement age. On August 6, he issued a statement saying that he'd misspoken.

The thing is that on June 22, 2003, on Meet the Press, Tim Russert brought up Dean's 1995 statement about raising the retirement age to 70. Dean said he no longer supported that. BUT he went on to say TWICE during the interview that he would "entertain" or "look at" raising the retirement age to 68. Check the MTP transcript and see for yourself.

You Dean supporters have been trying to spin that, saying he didn't say "favor" or "support" but it's clear from what he said that on June 22, he thought raising the retirement age to 68 was a good idea and something he might do. And in 1995 he supported raising it to 70. So he was WRONG when he denied it on August 5, since he'd been reminded of his 1995 stand FOR raising it to 70 and then TWICE said he'd consider raising it to 68, at least as recently as June 22, 2003.

Did Dean forget between June 22 and August 5, or did he lie on August 5? How could he possibly have forgotten an interview on national tv, with Russert grilling him and making him look not ready for primetime? Wouldn't you think he'd have gone over that interview to avoid making the same mistakes?

[uptohere]

39. thank you

n/t

[chimpymustgo]

41. Whaaaa??? TLM, your ignorance is showing.

Race relations is a centerpiece of John Edwards' campaign - something he grew up with, lived with, and now fights for - in front of very audience, in every forum, at every opportunity he gets.

Dean's claim that he's the ONLY one talking about it was an insulting LIE - and he knows it. That he would even say such a thing calls his judgement into complete question - and that his supporters would buy it underscores their ignorance.

This one really pissed me off. You need to get out more, read more. Get informed. Edwards will get more of the black vote than Sharpton.

[uptohere]

43. and thank you as well !

GO EDWARDS !

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Dean is also billed as THE anti-war candidate and the ONLY one

to speak out against Bush*. He has made those claims himself, too often echoed by the media and his followers.

Dean's the anti-war candidate who didn't speak at anti-war rallies and who, as soon as the war began, stated he would stop criticizing the" commander in chief" now that troops were in the field. Once the war "ended," he said we should send more of OUR troops over to help with the reconstruction. Now he's talking about getting UN troops in there. Another position he's changed a lot. And he would have supported Bush* invading Iraq if the UN had signed on.

Also, Dean SUPPORTED Bush* against criticism from John Kerry and Al Gore re: Tora Bora and Osama's escape. So much for speaking out against Bush*.

[uptohere]

44. OK try this

my very point is that if you want to be productive in the Senate then you had damn well better have debating and political skills. Major League v Minor League. Clearly the differences between VT and DC are great. Of course he had a career of honing those skills as a lawyer to facilitate this edge. Doctors have far less need of this.

The Social Security thing is addressed elsewhere. Same with the black comment.

While I did acknowledge that Dr Dean has gotte better at managing his emotions as they show up in speech, body language and demeanor, he cannot effectively manage any of that and while it may make him seem like a regular guy, do you want him getting his fur up when the poobah of Shitland says something offensive or do you want him to be able to seem as though nothing was said ? Its not presidential. There are times to turn it on and times to turn it off. YOu must be able to do that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

33. calling someone minor league is hardy vicious.....

you need a tougher skin. if you consider that vicious, what til rove starts in.

[uptohere]

40. and thank you too

n/t

[killbotfactory]

17. Yeah, having a huge growing grassroots campaign, rising in all the polls..

and raking in money hand over fist is the surefire sign of an amateur campaign.

Most people don't care about the petty crap the media and other candidates have been trying to harm Dean with.

[CMT]

22. how has he been allowing the DLC to define him?

He has stood up to them every step of the way. As he does so his support has only grown.

[Andromeda]

25. I think Dean just speaks off the cuff...

and he has admitted this about himself. Sometimes when he does that he gets himself in hot water. This doesn't discourage me from supporting him---in fact I think his candidness is appealing. In the beginning he was the most vocal in criticizing George Bush about the Iraq war while the other candidates, except for Graham and Kucinich, supported Bush on the war. He took advantage of this to gain national attention---then he expanded his views to include many other issues. The media likes a good horse race, so to speak, and to them Dean was the maverick like John McCain and he got a lot of news coverage.

I don't think Dean will let anybody define him because he continues to speak out in his own style which has gained more followers than detractors. When he is wrong he is not afraid to say so and I find that trait admirable.

Nobody says everything right and everyone has a right to change their mind. That is not a weakness--it just shows a critical mind and a mind willing incorporate new information and draw a conclusion based on current facts. When you talk to people all over the country you are going to get a smorgasbord of opinions and you have to be able to adapt to that. A person not willing to change their position on anything is just plain rigid and stubborn and we don't need that in our leaders.

[w4rma]

26. jeter, if you think there won't be more mistakes made by whomever wins

the nomination, you've got some disappointment ahead of you. As for Clark, the reason he hasn't made any obvious mistake is that he hasn't gone out an campaigned yet. He will and so will everyone else. For example, Bush makes huge mistakes everytime he opens his mouth.

No candidate is perfect. Don't ask them to be perfect, either, because that's impossible for any human being.

Dean is not God.

[Andromeda]

27. Another thought, Jeter...

Dean doesn't have any control over what others say about him but I don't think he will allow others to define him. He's a fighter and can usually stand up for himself in the face of scathing cricism.

The right-wing will be out to get ANY Democratic candidate so we just have to be prepared for that.

[CWebster]

35. It doesn't matter what Dean says or does

someone will be waiting to make an issue out of thin air.

The same goes for any or all of them. They aim for the target who gets the most attention to boost their own exposure. Clark's shinning moment will fade soon enough when others work to tarnish his star.

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. Dean will only get stronger the more he gets attacked

So the little minor mistakes actually will work in his favor. The harder things get, the stronger and better he will get. Just ask Ruth Dwyer. ;)

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Dean's "mouth problem" could cause problems if he were to

actually make it to the White House. We need a new Democratic president who will repair relations with other countries. A guy like Dean, who always wants to be the "only" one to do something, (the "only" anti-war candidate, the "only" one to speak out against Bush, the "only" one to talk about race) and who is known in his home state as one who publicly runs his mouth without engaging his brain, is not the best guy for the job.

Apparently, even in Vermont he'd say things and then deny having said them. Reporters started taping Dean so they could prove *to him* what he had said.