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Fascism Will Come to America Like the Chill of Autumn

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protect freedom impeach bush now Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:40 PM
Original message
Fascism Will Come to America Like the Chill of Autumn
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 06:41 PM by protect freedom impe
Saturday, Nov. 10, 2001. Page VIII

Global Eye -- Weather Report

By Chris Floyd

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2001/11/10/107.html


It won't come with jackboots and book burnings, mass rallies and fevered harangues. It won't come with "black helicopters" or tanks on the street. It won't come like a storm -- but like a break in the weather, that sudden change of season you might feel when the wind shifts on an October evening: Everything is the same, but everything has changed. Something has gone, departed from the world, and a new reality has taken its place.

As in Rome, all the old forms will still be there: legislatures, elections, campaigns -- plenty of bread and circuses for the folks. But the "consent of the governed" will no longer apply; actual control of the state will have passed to a small group of nobles who rule largely for the benefit of their wealthy peers and corporate patrons.


skip.......

Seem normal. Former special prosecutor Kenneth Starr predicts that the curtailment of civil liberties, including the use of torture, will be approved by "at least five Supreme Court justices," The Washington Post reports. (No points for guessing which five.) The Quiescent Quintet will gladly give "heightened deference to the judgments of the political branches with respect to matters of national security," says Starr.

Indeed, the Bush administration is now openly considering the use of torture to compel testimony from suspected terrorists -- or anyone designated as a suspected terrorist, Slate.com reports. True, a few girlie-men are still fretting about "constitutional rights," but the clever dicks in the Oval Office have that one sussed: Recalcitrant prisoners can always be exported to friendly regimes, like Egypt or Kenya, where they don't bother with such prissy concerns. Information "extracted" there can then be used in U.S. trials.

Wouldn't evidence acquired by such heinous and unconstitutional methods be thrown out by the courts? Ordinarily, yes -- under the old republic. But in America's new weather, the judiciary will no doubt "give heightened deference to the judgments of the political branches," etc. And if all else fails, a handy executive order can always "reinterpret" the constitution to accommodate the needs of "national security."

more.............
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good article...but I disagree with one point:
...It's already here.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Bingo, for every bit of ground-work has already been lain thoughout
the countryside as the media sycophants fawn in sickening sycophancy.
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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Agreed
It's already here. I just hope it is not too late to take our country back.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
2.  an observation...
1. We've always been ruled by an elite oligarch. Its just out in the open with this administration.

2. I can name at least 3 of the Supreme Court "justices" you talk of. Rhenquistasaurus, Scaliadachtal, Thomasadon. I use dinosaur endings as my own attack at these knuckle-dragging, cave-dwelling pond-scum of excuses for "Justices"

3. The masses deserve the government they get. Next time your in line to pay for groceries, look around at the others in line. These are the same morans waving the flag thinking invading Iraq was a just response to 9/11.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Overheard this at the grocery
3. The masses deserve the government they get. Next time your in line to pay for groceries, look around at the others in line. These are the same morans waving the flag thinking invading Iraq was a just response to 9/11.

Interesting you should mention this. Just this morning I was in line at the supermarket. Two women were behind me in line. One was probably in her early 70s and the other was maybe 40. They were not related but met in line. The older woman started talking to the younger one about our involvement in Iraq. They both were quite animated and the older woman exclaimed that it was all about greed. And that she was so sorry itt this was going to be handed to the young kids growing up right now.

I was floored by their discussion and didn't even chime in. I just nodded at them and paid for my groceries. I think I was in disbelief at their opinions being so spot on.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Hey. That was ME next to you in line at the grocery this morning
I mean, come on with that attitude you've got no defense when people accuse you of being elitist.

I was in the grocery store not long ago and the guy next to me in line started talking about the war and what a bunch of crap it was and how George Bush was a criminal. No joke.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. How do we fax this article to the Supreme Court Justices?
If they are going to be the ones to pull the trigger on Democracy and bring the fall of our nation, the least they can do is actually see the reality of what they will "accomplish",

and be enlightened on how history will judge them - as those who brought the fall of the USA.

Quite an honor huh?

How can this be blast faxed to our Congress as well?
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Having just finished "The Iron Heel" by Jack London I'd have to disagree.
When it comes, and it will, it will be harsh.

We've already made the transition to Oligarchy, perhaps always been that way, and eventually the Left/Labor/Workers/Middle Class will wake up and seek to remove the Oligarchic Power Structure and it will strike back.

And it will likely succeed in crushing those who oppose it for a good while. The power structure is already in place in America to transition immediately into a Police State.

Then, as quickly as it developed, it will collapse.

"When" is the only question.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. in the Iron heel
it takes a thousand years to collapse, if memory serves.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. 300.
My take on the length is different than London. For one he anticipated the Iron Heel developing during the great upheavals of the early 20th century. While tense, we never truly crosses the line. The New Deal also delayed it.

What we've had is a slow perculation to the brink over the last 100 years.

We're at the edge, once over though, I think that the events will be on a much faster time line due to technology that London was unaware of.

Communications especially make the emergence AND the eventual destruction of the Iran Heel different than London's horribly long time lines.

At least I hope so.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. it's been a while since I've read it...
must have associated 1,000 with a "thousand year reich."

I hope you're right, but it is going to be ugly how ever it plays out. Depressing the hell out of me...
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Actually you were probably remembering that the book...
...was a transcript found 1,000 years after the events.

Iron Heel: 300 Years.

Cooperative Commonwealth: 700 and counting.

Sorry about being depressing, frankly I'd like to be more hopeful, seems that the more I see the less upbeat I get when it comes to this subject.

I'll be reading "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis next week, it's about Fascism in America too.

Yippeeee...
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. that's a good one too
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:32 PM by GreenArrow
read that one back in high school and then again when GWB took over. Are you the one who was reading Main Street a couple of weeks ago? I need to dig that one out again.

You might also like London's "People of the Abyss" if you haven't read that one before. It's not distopian fiction, but it's an intense look at distopian reality in London at the end of the 19th century, and maybe our future if the Iron Heel holds sway.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yep. Read "Main Street" a couple of weeks ago.
Great book. Leaves one with no "answers" but certainly points out the harsh reality of American Life for those who refuse to kneel to the Power. Other than the technology it could be about people today.

"People of the Abyss" will be on October's calander for me.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. "Iran Heel" LOL Jan Michael!
I know it was just a typo, but sheet, it made me laugh.

Yes, Amerika 2020 will probably be much closer to Iran than the Last Days of the Old Republic.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. Ouch!
Yeah, I made a typo but it's awfully appropriate, eh?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. 1000 years = Approxmately The Length of the Dark Ages
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. We can't wait for it to collapse on it's own.
History has always taught us that the inevitable collapse is bloody. Many die and those that survive are have a hard road ahead of them. We have to do it before it becomes entrenched. There is still time but our window of opportunity gets smaller with each day that passes. We need to start protesting the Patriot Act now and demanding some resignations in high places. The voice of the people has to be heard loudly and clearly to put the fear of the mob in their finite brains until we can get our government back in the next election.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Took over 80 years for Fascism to Fall in Russia
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. How long did the Czars rule?
300 years?

I forget.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. important article
I am sending this to everyone I can think of and posting on my web site.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. Remember Rove's dream
It's to solidify right wing control of this nation for the next half century...Look at the way they're appointing fanatics to the federal bench. The fanatical religious overtones in this administration. This is all the begining...

When someone says we went to Afghanistan to avenge 9/11 or to destroy terrorist camps, remember that Wolfie, Rummy, and several others wanted to attack Iraq INSTEAD of Afghanistan, and the administration was VERY ready to, but was urged by Blair to go to Afghanistan first.

Even Wolfie is smart enough to know Saddam wasn't reponsible, but this was about something else. More than oil. This was about about control -- not just of the region, but to show dominance over the world. It was about a bizarre paranoid fixated over Saddam, an asshole for sure, but a tin pot dictator that was not a threat at this moment. Afghanistan was a side show. The administration never cared about fighting terrorism. About a year later, no money was allocated for the reconstruction of that country. It gave them tume to prepare for Iraq.

Then the build up came -- the fear mongering. We watched the TV for months. Ossama was true evil they said. The "experts" then quietly mentioned his name less and less, and pointed a more familiar villain -- Saddam. Saddam they all said -- he was the one responsible. He has terrorist camps. He sponsores Al Quaeda.

Well, it turns out Saddam was more worried about keeping his own brutal regime in place. His terror was domestic terror, but terror no different than many countries around the world.

No, the terrorists were funded and trained by America's "allies" in this "War on Terror" -- the great states of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were given the praise of money. Pakistan, a nation that had sponsored the regime that harbored "Mr. Wanted: Dead or Alive" was written a check for 3 Billion dollars and showered with military aid. The terror it continued to sponsor in Kashmir had nothing to do with Al Queda, the administration claimed. Oh no, that's on the other side of that country. Musharraf, a man Bush claimed would "bring stability" in his campaign pop quiz, was his best buddy. Convenient how Bush couldn't even give his name and simply called him "general" instead. The great ally also continued to barter nuclear weapons technology with a fanatic in East Asia, a man that had starved millions and had tested missiles over Japan. North Korea's Kim Jong Il, was apparently not an immediate threat, even though it was claimed he had nukes.

The Saudis meanwhile continued to visit the pResident. After all, how could the man insult his father's good business buddies? The Saudi didn't want women at control towers in the US...So we give them what they want.

Apparently it's been caught on tape that the Saudis called us white slaves. No surprise. We haven't cut our usage of fossil fuels. We haven't pressured the Saudis in any meaningfull way, by telling them "we won't buy your black liquid". We've done nothing. The money continues to flow toward those that despise us. We have become a nation of stupid, glutenous, SHEEP.

What happened to this nation? I'd rather live during Vietnam, because atleast then there was a press that covered news. Now, Brittney and Madonna frenching is the most amazing thing ever. Now, the same paper that brought down Nixon openly supports this "President's" war. Is what Nixon did even illegal anymore? I ask this because with the control the far right has on society, is there any hope? Does Ashcroft define what terrorism is? Is opposition on any issue terror? After all, the right will claim everyrhing Bush is doing "fights terror". Tax cuts for the rich -- fights terror, cutting veteran's benefits -- fights terror, not telling the people the air quality near ground zero was toxic -- fights terror.

According to him it sure does ("those who speak of phantoms of lost libery aid and embedd the terrorists") with their propaganda mill of CNN (this is the worst form because it is the most subtle and makes people believe they are watching accurate coverage), and FOX, the far right's wet dream

We are now unpatriotic to question. We are now unpatriotic to wonder. The midterm election was won on fear and complience. The next will be about mainting a society of fear.
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Nice work friend

well articulated dissertation about this nation.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. I agree CNN is subtle
It's the only US channel we have on cable here, so I check it out. They seem to cover all issues, from different sides. (note : we may not have the same CNN you are having ... I noticed CNN webpage autoamtically detecting I'm from "abroad" and consequently swithcinh to International Edition - it made me wonder...)

For example, they have an "open forum" from which they air bits. At times they had quite a lot of viewers not agreeing with the war in Iraq.

So you think, hey they're not that bad.

Then you notice that subliminally they have been showing "Emerging Iraq" as a title all day long.

Emerging ?? Into what ???

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mkregel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. Please repost this as its own topic
That was great! I loved it - but I worry it will get buried in this thread....
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
51. The midterm election was won on FRAUD and FEAR...
The Dems got the most votes, the Repukes counted them
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is probably the best thread
since I started reading here at the DU. Really good writers here, every one.

Our country seems to have moved in the wrong direction the last few years. It didn't happen overnight. Nor was it a case of innocent bystanders who had this terrible injustice inflicted upon them.

For the past 10 years, I've felt that Americans have been oblivious to events and trends which they should have picked up on, like recycling, cutting back on fossil fuels (we did the opposite).

The US represents about 5% of the world's population, but we consume more than 25% of certain things (help me out here).

Stan Goff writes that our country is now ruled by Fascists. It's a frightening scenario.

It's also important to remember that none of our freedoms were handed to us. We had to fight for every last one of them. Once a right is relinquished voluntarily, it's almost impossible to ask for it back again.

Yes, it's a terrible outcome. However, it doesn't have to be the end result. People seem to be waking up to the terrible situation we're in. Let's just hope they realize what's at stake.

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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. Fascism? We Report - You Decide
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 01:59 AM by Cronus
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. outsourcing torture? Won't that put American torturers out of work?
just a joke. Funny, huh?
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
23. kick.
:kick:
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
25. Fascism Will Come to America IN the Chill of Autumn?!?
Do they know something we don't? LIHOP again soon?
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Autumn 200, I presume.
And perhaps in 2004 as well.... brrr..r.r.r.rrrrr



Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>
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iangb Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Nope...."LIKE" the chill of Autumn...
You know.....those balmy late summer days that gradually get less and less balmy. You can't put your finger on exactly when it happens, but suddenly you realise it's autumn.

That is what's happening to the US right now.....gradually your democracy is being eroded.....one day sooner or later you'll realise it's gone.
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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. oh gosh this is silly..
Fascism would require a dictatorship which won't happen in an American democracy given the fact a President's legislative agenda must pass Congress before it can be enacted. If we were a parliamentary democracy becoming fascist is more likely because a Prime Minister can pretty much so enact any legislation as long as his party supports it.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Then don't worry about it.
Everything's fine, nothing to see here, move along, don't worry yourself:-)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. When the Supreme Court selects the President
and anthrax is sent to Dems to frighten the shit out of them so they pass anything the pres wants, it's too close for me!
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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. then you have no clue what fascism is...
Congress can repeal every piece of legislation they want. Congress doesn't have to pass anything the President wants in this country, sounds fascist to me:) England and France would become fascist easier than us. Chirac pretty much has dictatorial power and his party has totally dominated France for over 40 years but leftists just love France :)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Well maybe you're right
Like to stay and chat but keeping up with the BBV story is more important to me. He who counts the votes wins!
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Someone has been watching too much Faux
Who is the Emperor who has used the Executive Order (Imperial Fiat) to circumnavigate normal channels of the Legislative and Judicial Branches from everything from Faith-Based Payola to Sealing Daddy's Corrupt Papers perpetually?

"It can't happen here, eh?" Not in a country with such an Independant Free Investigative Prtess that would SURELY bring any malfeasance to light.

And our engaged citizenry, so adept at smelling out Lies from those in Power, regardless of what their TV's tell them 12 times
tell them 12 times
tell them 12 times
tell them 12 times, could NEVER be fooled into thinking that Saddam had something to do with 9-11, or that an Emperor who said "Combat Operations" were over actually said "MAJOR Combat Operations" were over.

And our Vibrant Free Press, even if the public fell for that, would NEVER let the powerful get away with such an Orwellian lie, would NEVER immediately begin repeating this new Pravda without noting the Orwellian change.

Nope. Never could happen.

Oh, to be that delightfully naive again! Thanks for the laugh, Mav.
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iangb Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Too easy....
<snip>On September 14, 2001, President Bush declared that a "national emergency exists by reason of the terrorist attacks ... and the continuing and immediate threat of further attacks on the United States." When the emergency will end, no one knows.

At present, the President has opted to exercise only a few of his emergency powers. Under the National Emergencies Act, at this time, he is only utilizing provisions relating to the military.

Will the President choose to use additional powers? It depends on the future. Because we don't know what shape this undeclared war on terrorism will take, we can't know what powers this president - or any successor - might need to cope with the problems of terrorism.

An American President, should he need them, possesses awesome powers. Those powers potentially include what political scientists have described as the powers of a "constitutional dictatorship." No President has ever had to go that far - although they have come close.

more... http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020607.html

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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. leftwing and rightwing conspiracy theories are funny but scary...
Basically it's radicals who want to destroy the system because the agendas they want aren't forced on America.
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. Alexander Hamilton explained in Federalist No. 70...
...that the essential nature of the chief executive is his "energy," which "is a leading <element> in the definition of good government. It is essential to the protection of the community against foreign attacks; it is no less essential to the steady administration of the laws; to the protection of property against those irregular and high-handed combinations, which sometimes interrupt the ordinary course of justice; to the security of liberty against the enterprises and assaults of ambition, of faction, and of anarchy."
Why aren't I left with a warm fuzzy feeling, considering who the current chief executive is? :-(
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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. your ignorance on things..
Freshman political science students learn is frightening. You just spout whatever you read in Mother Jones ok?
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Silly? You say silly, MaverickX?!
No, it's tragic. Possibly the greatest tragedy we'll ever see in our lifetimes.

First, OK, I've been involved in debates on other boards and I've come to agree that what we are witnessing does not meet an academic definition of the term, "fascism". Others have argued persuasively for other terms, "neo-liberal imperialism", "inverted totalitarianism", "proto-feudalism". I think all apply and what we have is a situation begging for a birthing of new terms. However, the bottom line is we have indeed a situation, a tragic crisis, and use of the word "silly" helps no one but those that instigate the crisis.

I think "liberal imperialism" applies with respect to the face (and boot) we show the rest of the world. To paraphrase Bush's National Security Strategy (NSS): "The American Way of Life -- individual liberty and free market capitalism -- is self-evidently superior to all others. If the world followed Our Way we'd all be more prosperous and secure in our Liberty. There exists dangerous rogue states out there that would diminish liberty and threaten our security. We therefore have the right and self-interest to remove these illegitimate states and help their peoples build states in our own image. It is in the self-interest of everyone for us to re-order the world in this way. Thus, the New World Order of the Pax Americana." (It goes something like that, anyway.) The NSS even implies we'd go to war to ensure low marginal tax rates! Definitely very Liberal Imperialistic, there's no doubt about it! The word "fascism" doesn't (yet) apply.

There is in this some things that I think appeal to the American psyche, and maybe that's part of the reason Bush has been allowed to behave as he has. First, the notion that our way of life, the result of full exercise of the rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, is the highest expression of individual freedom ever on earth -- spreading it is a good in itself. (Remember, we're in the world of myth here.) And, second, governments gain legitimacy solely through the consent of the governed. The people in a sense "lease" their power to the state apparatus through the intermediation of constitutional democracy. Where this is not evidently so, government is illegitimate; we have a "rogue" state. Illegitimate rogue states have no right to claims of sovereignty, rendering "regime change" for the purpose of replacing the regime with one in our own image moral and legal and right. OK. However, this is just a modern rendition of the "white man's burden", last century's justification for raping other lands of their natural resources.

I think the above represents the ideology for public consumption. It hides the underlying reality. Liberal Imperialism is fundamentally optimistic. It posits value in the conquered as well as the conqueror -- all freely participate as consumer and worker over an ever growing economic pie. I think what we're witnessing today is a collapse of optimism and a reaction to limits. After writing off vast parts of the U.S. population and the world, GWB is leading a circling of the wagons for self-defense of his elite's way of life while ours is left to decline down the back slope of Hubbert's peak. It's gonna' get rough from here on out!

On the domestic front, Bush is advancing a radical right-wing agenda that is firmly focused on reducing the role of government to one narrow purpose: Security. Policing and protecting the prerogatives of power, nothing else (lest it interfer with the ability of elites to accumulate profit).

Really
The police try to protect the banks
And everything else is secondary
--D.A. Levy


Note the crushing fiscal policy -- two tax cuts totaling well over $2 trillion that overwhelmingly favor the wealthy. Our $6 trillion surplus has been reduced to a $5 trillion deficit for as far as the eye can see. This is nothing more than a continuance of the Reagan/Bush I policy of pauperizing government in order to make it impossible to continue programs other than security, including the hated social security and medicare obligations for the coming glut of boomer retirees. The intention is to avoid the obligation -- again, lest it interfer with the ability of elites to accumulate profit -- and leave the rascal multitude more dependent on the largesse of the corporate world. So, along with "neo-liberal imperialism", the term "proto-feudalism" seems to apply. (Anyone remember Heilbroner's seventies slimbook, "The Decline of Business Civilization"?)

But to the applicability of the term, "fascism": The following article makes the case for a "kind of fascism", by Professor Emeritus of Politics, Sheldon Wolin, of Princeton University, available here www.commondreams.org/views03/0718-07.htm :

------------------------------------------------------
A Kind of Fascism Is Replacing Our Democracy

Sept. 11, 2001, hastened a significant shift in our nation's self-understanding. It became commonplace to refer to an "American empire" and to the United States as "the world's only superpower."

<snip>

No administration before George W. Bush's ever claimed such sweeping powers for an enterprise as vaguely defined as the "war against terrorism" and the "axis of evil"...

<snip>

Like previous forms of totalitarianism, the Bush administration boasts a reckless unilateralism that believes the United States can demand unquestioning support, on terms it dictates; ignores treaties and violates international law at will; invades other countries without provocation; and incarcerates persons indefinitely without charging them with a crime or allowing access to counsel.

<snip>

The American system is evolving its own form: "inverted totalitarianism." This has no official doctrine of racism or extermination camps but, as described above, it displays similar contempt for restraints.

----------------------------------------------------

DU posting limits force me to stop, but I suggest you read this excellent article. Wolin argues for a "kind of fascism" and argues we're witnessing an "inverted totalitarianism". But many dismiss the word "fascism" because many elements witnessed in Nazi Germany are not visible now. However, Wolin's argument is that we are achieving similar (Nazi) ends through more subtle means.

We still have the right to vote, but for whom? We have two votes in America, the "dollar" vote followed by the "democratic" vote. The problem with the first is that you get to vote a lot more if you have more dollars (very un-democratic). The result is that money sets the agenda and class interest prevails -- and, thus, we increasingly have one party in America, the Republicrats. Both Republican and Democratic factions represent monied interests first and foremost before they differentiate along the lines of their various constituencies. So, if my choices are limited to factions of one Republicrat party that first and foremost serves the interest of monied elites, and I don't have money, then what value is this right? Is this why voter turnout in America is so low? The bottom line: There is no need for Nazi-like laws outlawing competing parties -- the ends have been achieved by more subtle means.

Sure, I'm free to dissent (at least for now). I can protest, of course, but locked in pens known as "free speech zones" far from the pResidential rally. I can advocate for, say, single-payer universal healthcare, but since that item never makes it past the dollar vote it never gets on the public agenda. The result is 42 million Americans have only charitable (emergency room) access to healthcare and ours is the most inefficient delivery system on earth (33 cents of every healthcare dollar going to "administration and profit"). So what is this freedom to advocate worth if it is defeated in the oligarchic backrooms of power despite the public will?

I'm still free to speak -- witness my rant here! -- but note the difference in support between progressive and conservative media (it leads to a narrowing of the agenda). The money and power behind conservative media far exceed that behind progressive media and has the result of drowning out the progressive voice. It's not heard over the shouting sludge slopped forward daily by the major media. So, yes, I am nominally free to speak my mind, but to what effect?

Go ahead, buy a T-Shirt that makes an anti-fascist point. If you're a highschooler, you could be suspended and have an intimidating visit from the FBI; if you're in a shopping mall you just might get arrested.

I bet that the perception of the ordinary American is that nothing's changed; this is still the America of their childhood civics lessons, the land of Jefferson and Madison, of the Liberty Bell and George Washington's cherry tree. Again, subtle means, MaverickX, subtle means achieving the same ends (Lipmann-Bernays-Goebbels-Segretti-Rove have all earned their pay)...

But one's perception of "freedom" varies greatly, here, depending on what cell you occupy on this penal colony. Some cells are quite roomy and comfortable (especially if you're of the "management" class), but others, well -- one of our fastest growing industries still is prison construction and services. We have the highest incarceration rate in the first world (one of the highest over the entire world). If you're black, male, and live in a city, I think the chances that you spend time in prison are as high as 1-in-3. The chances that you're given the death sentence, another category we lead in, is 8 times higher than if you're white. A buddy of mine was nearly arrested for sitting on the front porch of his home late on a recent Saturday night, a home his family has owned for 50 years. What does this say about the Land of the Free? Depending on whom you ask, you will get very different answers. Some would already call this a locked-down police state, not a Jeffersonian democracy.

So what do we have here, MaverickX? Yes we have nominal "freedoms" and we have deeply embraced myths about our "freedoms". But are we free? Ask Martin Luther King, Malcom X, JFK, RFK; ask Carnahan and Wellstone; ask Steve Kangas, VoxNYC; ask the dead soldier in Iraq. Recall Ari Fliescher's threats after 9-11, "be careful". I hear Haliburton is rigging Gitmo to be our first death camp. What next? Will some of us winter in the Cuban sun? And will that dissolve our long-held myths?

Bottom line: Though we are not Nazi Germany and different conditions exist, we still have a kind of "fascism" here now. Mussolini's marriage of Corporation and State. The Conservatives march on ("neo", "crunchy", and "religious"), doing their best to wither the State. But note: Every inch of ground ceded by our democratic institutions is immediately claimed by the undemocratic corporation. Reagan/GHWB/GWB have pounded the bully pulpit for less government for a purpose -- again, isn't this a matter of ends achieved by more subtle means?

Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends; the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them.
-- Thomas Jefferson to Annapolis Citizens, 1809


Where we surrender, claim "silliness", there fascism steps in. I think we are witnessing the end of the American Experiment -- or, rather, a second experiment, a new mix of the prerogatives of power over the will and welfare of the many. Call it what you will, but don't call it silly!
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Remind me to never piss you off.
Great post & WELCOME TO DU!!!!
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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. counter to your points...
First of all fascism isn't defined by the decentralized abuse of power or attacks on freedom. It involves the complete centralization of political power in a dictatorship.

Bush is advancing a radical right-wing agenda that is firmly focused on reducing the role of government to one narrow purpose: Security. Policing and protecting the prerogatives of power, nothing else

This is libertarian, not fascist.


We have two votes in America, the "dollar" vote followed by the "democratic" vote. The problem with the first is that you get to vote a lot more if you have more dollars (very un-democratic). The result is that money sets the agenda and class interest prevails -- and, thus, we increasingly have one party in America, the Republicrats.

The fact it takes money to run campaigns is fascist? The amount of money individuals and groups donate to politicians is already limited. Actually money in politics also helps unions, Sierra Club, etc. not just big corporations.


I can advocate for, say, single-payer universal healthcare, but since that item never makes it past the dollar vote it never gets on the public agenda.

So we're fascist because you can't have your way completely on every issue? The fact agendas must be compromised and debated on in Congress is the antithesis of fascism. Single-payer hasn't been enacted because the voters have rejected it perhaps? Ever thought of that?

All you've debated me with is a philosophical blueprint. The fact is fascism cannot logically develop in the American system of government. The President would need Congressional approval to pass the fascist legislation and the Supreme Court would need to uphold it. I agree the President can and does sign some pretty conservative bills into law but not unilaterally. Bills aren't fascist just because you don't like them. Radical leftists consider everything to the right of Marx fascist and radical conservatives consider everything left of Reagan socialist.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. You've countered nothing...
...and you seem to have missed the point of my first two paragraphs, so I repeat them here:

No, it's tragic. Possibly the greatest tragedy we'll ever see in our lifetimes.

First, OK, I've been involved in debates on other boards and I've come to agree that what we are witnessing does not meet an academic definition of the term, "fascism". Others have argued persuasively for other terms, "neo-liberal imperialism", "inverted totalitarianism", "proto-feudalism". I think all apply and what we have is a situation begging for a birthing of new terms. However, the bottom line is we have indeed a situation, a tragic crisis, and use of the word "silly" helps no one but those that instigate the crisis.


What is "fascism" if not an aberrant form of extreme capitalism, where a privileged class enhances and entrenches their position of privilege by hijacking the power of the State and using it to their own advantage? What do we have today in the U.S.? What appears to differ (between ourselves and previous fascisms) are the means used to achieve the same ends (our "fascists" work diligently now to further build the means -- e.g., USA Patriot Act, HSA, future USAPA II -- to apply the "Central American" model to our public, not the Nazi model). However, again, I remind you that I stated that what we are witnessing today doesn't meet the academic definition of the word, "fascism". I wait for better terms.

Having said that, I still affirm that enfeebled voice, say fifty years forward, after the lootocrats in power today have irrevocably pauperized our federal government and social security is reduced to alms for the very poor and that little old gray haired wraith of a woman curses all Republicans past, present, and future as "fascisti" under her breath, fearful of the gaze of her Patriot keepers. That little old woman will be my wife, struggling after I am gone, so I struggle now.

Let me knock off a few of your claims:

davekriss: "I can advocate for, say, single-payer universal healthcare, but since that item never makes it past the dollar vote it never gets on the public agenda."

MaverickX: "So we're fascist because you can't have your way completely on every issue? The fact agendas must be compromised and debated on in Congress is the antithesis of fascism. Single-payer hasn't been enacted because the voters have rejected it perhaps? Ever thought of that?"

No I never thought of "that" , MaverickX, because it hasn't happened. That is my point. You slide completely past my notion that this thing I'd advocate for is decided for us in the undemocratic atmosphere of $2,000 a plate luncheons, PAC meetings, editorial board decisions (especially now that 6 corporations own substantially all of the major media), and boardroom decisions that groom their preferred political puppet, all this leaving a much narrowed agenda on the democratic ballot for us to finally vote for.

During the Hillary mess in the nineties several polls were published that showed Americans were strongly in favor of single-payer and its guarantee of universal healthcare (the polls got little coverage in the near-monopolized media). Yet "single-payer" and "universal healthcare" were not on the agenda, even under the "liberal" Clintons. So when, MaverickX, has single payer last come up for vote? One could construe once before, when Medicare was conceived. It won. A social institution now (despite underfunding), one few would like to see recinded. Hmmm. Makes one wonder what other public-benefiting programs the public would vote for -- if they were only given the choice!

My point about two votes, the dollar vote and the democratic vote, is that, yes, it takes money to run a successful campaign, and except for the rare exceptions (e.g., Corzine, both liberal and rich), most have to go to those that have it to fund their campaigns. Most that "have it" want to keep it; and the problems of the "have nots" don't readily press on their collective consciousness (nor conscience), meaning there is a tendency to think things are substantially fine, no need to monkey with it except a tweak here and a tweak there. It's a rare bird that gives voice to a progressive agenda and gains access to the cash to run a successful campaign. So money has a filtering effect: Onto the ballot and TV screens fall only those that do not stray far from the "party line" of the fat, the comfortable, and the indoctinated-misinformed.

On the matter of single-payer again: There is a well monied consticuency that would like the status quo to continue. That group to whom 33 cents of every healthcare dollar goes (for "administration and profit") funnels some of their gains to PACs that support candidates that, if they address the issue at all, claim that ours is the best healthcare system in the world and, if anything, if we just initiate tort reform so hospitals, insurers, and HMO's don't have to bare the full costs of their profit making decisions, then it would be even better. Meanwhile 42 million are wholly dependent on charitable (emergency room) access to healthcare, our infant mortality rate continues to lag much of the rest of the First World, and our average lifespan lags our peers. Best in the world? Perhaps. If you're lucky enough to afford it.

***

I had more to say, maverickX, but my family calls me (we're off to a block party). Some other time. :)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Dave, great post
and just another thought: Diebold is making really nice voting machines, taking care of our Federal Reserve, and protecting the Charters of Freedom.

Diebold is celebrating being chosen to provide three new customized high-tech vaults to secure the original copies of the Charters of Freedom: The U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.
www.diebold.com/nyse.htm

Over the past decade, Diebold has also been the primary supplier for all of the country's federal reserve banks, which includes seven bank sites and more than 20 vault doors.
www.diebold.com/charters.htm
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. excellent post - i think we are closer to the imperial japanese fascism
when they tried to export their brand of economic order in asia.

ours is much larger in scope though.

great post :toast:

peace
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
30. Huey Long said that
fascism would come to this country but be called democracy.

As long as the reichwing ideologues control our government, we are a fascist or at least a proto-fascist state.
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Lizz612 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
56. "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis
Its my personal mission to get everyone to read it!! You must read it!!
jk
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hitler got 33% of the vote than
bullied his way to power,subverting the German electorate. Once in power.......
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Actually


You left out one fact. He would eventually get 95% of the vote (in 1934) when his dreams of one party rule came to fruition. Look it up.

That's where Tom DeLay wants to take us and you know what?...God love him for that. :freak:
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
39. This administration has gotten away with cavalier audacity so far
And I have seen no proof that this trend will stop. For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. In the White House right now, it seems to apply: every time damning information comes to light, you dig up something to deflect opinion. A new Bin Laden tape. An attack. A bump up in the old Terror Chromatagram. A diversion of any sort. Then the press comes to lap it up like kittens on warmed milk.

Doing something about it hurts. Going along with it feels good. So people do it in droves. Wave a flag and swagger...it is easier than thinking about the people dying for the flag right now. Listen to LimpBalls...his predigested cud is easier to ingest than the truth. Vote for the pretty bodybuilder movie star who says "I'll be back"... much easier on the ears than talk about the debt California is in. Hate minorities...it to use them as scapegoats than assailing the real criminals.

Black is white. Yes is no. War is peace. Here wave this flag and don't look at the man behind the curtain.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. TRUE!!! These guys are fragantly screwing the truth, and no one cares...
I will never understand it. At least the Nixon Administration committed their crimes behind closed doors and under cover of darkness.

*This* crowd in power now doesn't give a rat's ass about hiding much of anything -- PNAC is online, including the remark about "another Pearl Harbor" is needed to get the sheeple on board; big contracts go to Halliburton and are reported; the Patriot Act takes a hacksaw to our liberties; the list is long and infuriating.

The fact that people just stand still for all this is flabbergasting. The fact that many of them think it's all Clinton's fault is utterly mind-blowing.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. Kick.
:kick:
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iangb Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. And again n/t
.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
54. Their intelligence gathering is a lot better than ours
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
57. maybe not...
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