Gannongate Wrinkles, Part 11

[intheflow]

merh's synopsis of threads 1-8 is here.

sojourner's Gosch/Guckert synopsis of threads 1-8 is here.

sojourner's synopsis of threads 9 - 10 is here. merh's addition about thread 9 is here.

nonny's Gosch-to-Guckert side-by-side comparison overlay is here. Her photo comparison of John Gosch, Sr. and Guckert is here (as re-posted by merh in thread 10).

Wrinkles 1: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3144209
Wrinkles 2: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3155132
Wrinkles 3: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3161296
Wrinkles 4: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3196579&mesg_id=3196579&page=
Wrinkles 5: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3214059#3214059
Wrinkles 6: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3218095
Wrinkles 7: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3220309&mesg_id=3220309
Wrinkles 8: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3222750
Wrinkles 9: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3225014#3225014
Wrinkles 10: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3230132#3230132

Broken link in opening message of Wrinkles 10 is here.

**Edited to say I have set up a Demopedia page with this information on it: Gannongate Wrinkles.

[imaginary girl]

1. Clap, clap

Very nicely organized! Thanks!

[libertypirate]

2. Nice Work!

Very helpful... Thank you

[intheflow]

15. I have set up a Demopedia page about it.

See Gannongate Wrinkles.

And thanks for the thanks. (blush)

[FreedomAngel82]

23. I just wanted to say

here's a :toast: to all of you all who were working on this. Great job!

[merh]

87. You are good intheflow! Thank you for starting #11 and the

demopedia page. :hi: Okay time to check things out...

[Lautremont]

3. So has the age discrepancy thing been cleared up?

Sorry if it has - I took a quick look but couldn't see that addressed. I just wonder if the G man is mid-thirties or late forties.

[imaginary girl]

7. Seems to have divided into 3 camps

1. People who believe there is no way G/G is 47
2. People who are quite sure G/G is late 40s
3. People who believe age is difficult to determine for sure.

If Gosch, he would be around 35.
Guckert, supposedly, is 47.

[loritooker]

190. Is the graduation year 1976 or 1975? If 1976, does the school have a copy?

Edit: sorry, stuck this in the wrong place...

[Catherine Vincent]

9. No, not yet. We're waiting on someone to find a yearbook

from the high school that Guckert supposedly attended to see if there's a pic of him.

[sojourner]

26. Okay...another problem with age discrepancy has surfaced

Over at propagannon they now have Guckert working at a place called Karmak -- and there's a photo of him working there.

link to the thread --- http://www.propagannon.com/node/1118

BUT if I read this right, they think he's using the driver's license of J.D. Guckert born in 1970!!!!

Here's the info on Karmak, (notice manager):

Here is the data:
Name: KARMAK INC
Address: 511 S BOLMAR ST
City: WEST CHESTER, PA 19382-4934
Contact: J D GUCKERT (MANAGER)
County: CHESTER
MSA (Metro Area): PHILADELPHIA, PA-NJ
Phone: [phone]
Fax**:
Fortune 1000 Ranking Not Available
Foreign Parent: NO
Employees: Corporate: Location: 5 to 9
Est Sales $1 to $2.5 MILLION
Location: SINGLE LOC
Headquarters: None
Credit Rating Code*: VERY GOOD
ABI Number: 508351384
Public: NO
Stock Exchange: None
Ticker Symbol: Not Available
Toll Free Number: Not Available
URL: Not Available

SIC: 7532-12
Lines of Business: Truck Bodies-Repairing
Ad Size: Regular
Year Appeared in YP: 2000

[intheflow]

31. Born 1970 would make him Johnny's age!!

I got an access denied message, so I guess I'll have to sign up with propagannon.

[sojourner]

34. check out the photo on the link if you can get there

It's Gannon. Susan keeps swearing that there's no mystery behind the two Gannons....me, I am not so convinced!

Also, I can't load this webpage - http://www.karmakinc.com

can anybody here? Inability to load it MIGHT mean it's been taken down? I won't start panicking yet...waiting for confirmation first. :tinfoilhat:

[intheflow]

35. Speaking of language use and puns...

That link goes to "karmakinc". Or "karma kink"?

Would I. Christian be linked to karma kink? Just thinking out my fingers...

[sojourner]

37. I know...I can't stop thinking of ways these things are put together.

He's got another alias, now, also. I was trying to find the link where it was mentioned and haven't been able to. Something like Gabriel??????? I'll post when I do find it.

[mordarlar]

42. Came back to shut down and saw new stuff. Freaked me out with the name...

Gabriel. I have been following the case of a missing Ohio girl named Erika Baker. A man was finally arrested after 5 years. His name is Gabriel. No relation to this i am sure but the name took me back for a sec.

[mordarlar]

44. The photo. I think it is the same guys we have seen on these threads...

Have to see it larger. Doesn't look like him.

[mordarlar]

46. Didn't he have long hair and glasses back when this would have been

taken? Could he be in the back row?



They also show this pic on propagannon

http://www.propagannon.com/filestore2/download/1132/

[burn the bush]

56. I think that first guy in the back row is Agent Mike

Hi Agent Mike!

[DemonFighterLives]

77. Yeah that does look like a disguise

:hi:

[Andy_Stephenson]

90. 2nd from the left on the front row. ROVE???

Ok I know it can't be....but he ever so slightly looks like Rove.

[burn the bush]

55. I called the number listed at the site and got a recording for a Steve

Carlyle or something like that. I didn't leave a message. I was going to ask them straight up if Gannon was the bald guy in the pic.

[understandinglife]

174. Called as well. Goes to vmail after 8 rings. "Steve....

.....Carlyle" is the name given by the vmail. Interesting business that their phone goes to a vmail rather than to a receptionist and the fact that repeated calls all go to vmail.

Maybe someone who lives reasonably close to the address could pay them a visit.

By the way, I was going to ask for "Johnny Gosch" and if they said who I was then going to ask for "Jeff Gannon".....lastly, "Mr Guckert."

Peace.

[fooj]

193. Isn't "Carlyle" the name of one of the companys Shrub Sr. is

involved in? That's curious...

[understandinglife]

171. See comment # 74 and following at wrinkles # 5:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3214059#3215191

Peace.

[mordarlar]

4. Wanted to repost this here. Moon speaking of bush and America.

Here is the link to the True Parents meeting.

http://www.unification.net/1993/930128b.html

>>>>For Rev. Moon my enemy is the United States and the Christian world. The entire Christian world and the free world is my enemy. I have to love them with True Love. God's method is always to be beaten and then gain the victory. The Unification Church history of development has followed that principle. The entire world has come against me. I do not hate those people who come against me. When the Messiah comes and has to take the entire world, it ~s natural that the entire world comes against me. On whose side is God? The satanic world or with Rev. Moon? Father came here not for revenge but to save and to love. Father went to the USSR not to destroy but to love. Father went to Kim IL Sung, the most evil man, not for revenge, but to love. At the gates of heaven Satan will bow down to him because he is the model.

Father came to America and created the AFC and the ACC and many other organizations. They are American. Father is foreign. Father came to love America, but they come to meet Father through these projects. They will realize the true meaning of these projects and what Father is saying. You should be loving America more than Father does. Be more sacrificial than Father. Otherwise, to whom can I inherit these missions. But many come to the Unification Church movement to exploit and take advantage. The subject and object must unite. For the sake of the United States. Instead of having Father in the forefront, it's Americans that should stand in the forefront representing Father. Let Americans take responsibility. Let Americans become the central figure. This ~s the reason Rev. Moon Is retreating back Americans must move forward.

George Bush, I am sorry. I had a recommendation for George Bush. Father was the one to have George Bush elected four years ago. But there were certain mandates. Certain reciprocal responsibilities which he did not listen to. What happened? He's finished. In the republican establishment, the only hope is for them to unite with Father. (conveniently, shortly after gwb became "His Fraudulency", ghwb began to travel and endorse Moon, mordarlar) I have great hope for America. However, if America is not going to heed Father's wishes, then Father has an alternative. The former Soviet Union. All those former communist countries. They will be my object. I will work through them. Ultimately one way or another Father's wishes will be accomplished. Father came to the white world to save it. Why did Father spend money that was not earned in this county? To educate Americans and to educate the UTS graduates. This is another manifestation of loving the enemy. Since American Christian churches have come against Father so adamantly, Father created the Unification Church to replace the Christian world in America. Father invested considerable resources to save America. So now not only this world, but the communist world, the eastern European block, China and N. Korea will all come under Father's wings. <<<

snip

>>>In America we have to connect again the Unification Church to the Christian world. We need to make that victorious foundation. Carter, we cut off his neck. Is that true? So with that foundation we went to the communist world. We see their decline. Who made that? Rev. Moon.<<<

snip

>>>After the 40 year history Father realigns the nations. Japan as the Eve, and the United States as the Abel, are given another chance.

The United States is an important element because it is a complete representation of the Old Testament and New Testament era. If Father abandons the United States, he is abandoning the entire history of God. Korea is the Adam nation. All that Satan has done Father will restore. Germany was selected as Cain. In 1975. When Father sent out the missionaries, he selected one from Japan, one America and one German. Because Japan and Germany were selected by Father this is the reason that unprecedented economic recovery came to them. We must consummate this providence, otherwise the new era will not dawn.<<<


http://www.unification.net/2001/20011020.html
>>>But now the nations have nowhere to go but to follow God and True Parents. Is George W. Bush the center of America? Gore won the popular vote. He lost because of the electoral college. It’s over. What does the US tell to the third world? It says that they should choose democracy and the bi-cameral legislative system. And those countries say to the US, "Worry about yourself. Don’t come here and preach to us. Look at yourself." Without democracy, what will Western people do?<<<

>>>From now on things have changed. People who worry should die. What did I say? People who know and worry should die. Should they die or not? (Don’t die.) I will stay even if everyone dies. You have to think of it that way. Do you know how to achieve individual perfection? Do you know it or not? Yoo Kwang Ryul, do you know the experience of the individual’s mind and body becoming one? Do you know it or not? After the fall, the body that inherited Satan’s blood lineage became stronger than the conscience. This is the problem.<<<



the four-year presidential term should be changed to an eight-year term. After four years candidates have to compete for the presidency again. What time do they have to do any work? They waste so much national wealth on elections. It should be eight year terms. Even in democracies it should be 16 years if you count 8 years for the husband and eight years for the wife. And if it is a family it should be 32 years. That will give hope. What can you do in 4 years? They start their election campaigns after 2 years. It’s all over. Democracy will collapse. The principle doesn’t allow it.<<<



http://www.unification.net/2004/20040127_2.html
>>>For this purpose I founded the Peace United Nations' in New York, U.S.A. on October 3rd 2003. In doing God's providence, this Peace United Nations is developing initiatives of a revolutionary dimension that will rock heaven and earth. By educating each and every one of the six billion people on this earth, and giving them the Marriage Blessing, we are building God's fatherland, our fatherland, where the entire globe becomes our home, my home. Our goal is already set. The flag of the Peace United Nation is already waving high. The battle cry of victory is erupting across the world. Victories are won in America, Europe, Jerusalem, Palestine, Japan and Korea. Nothing is impossible with God and the numerous martyrs, patriots, saints and sages in spirit world running with us at our side.<<<

http://www.unification.net/2000/20000210.html
>>>When I was humiliated by the U.S. federal government and unjustly brought before a court of law, my response was actually to work harder to give life to America by founding the conservative newspaper The Washington Times and a broadcasting station.<<<

>>>The United States is also a country that considered me their enemy. However, I left my family behind and diverted my attention from my Korean fatherland to bring salvation to that country. I threw away everything that belonged to me in order to bring salvation to the world under Satan.

Think, too, of how much hatred the established Christian denominations have directed toward the Unification Church. It might be said that we are enemies. We must not fight each other as enemies, however. We must come together in love. What happens when we come together in love? The two come together in love and lead the Republic of Korea into fulfilling the will of Heaven so as to digest North Korea. If the established denominations and the Unification Church had become one immediately after Korea's liberation from Japan, everything would have been solved.

Because that did not happen, we have had to make extraordinary sacrifices to fight enemies of the individual, enemies of the family, enemies of the clan, and enemies of the people in order to attain the position that we would have reached in the first place had there been no conflict. We have worked to overcome the path of suffering where we were not able to strike at enemies. <<<

http://www.unification.net/1990/900422.html
>>>God wants to close His eyes, ears, nose and mouth when He looks at this world. He doesn't want to deal with it. Look at New York City. It is actually hell. Every night there are thousands of sins committed. . . murder, prostitution, drugs, homosexuality and free sex. This city continues in a hellish way. It prospers under Satan's control. It is oppressed by Satan's power. Satan's totalitarian rule hangs over New York and America.<<<

http://www.unification.net / There's a LOT more where this came from.

[The Magistrate]

8. Something You Might Find Interesting, Ma'am

Though it is not, strictly speaking, on this topic. If you are interested in the theology of this group, you would benefit from looking into the Taiping rebellion against the Ch'ing in China in the mid-nineteenth century. There are some interesting over-laps between Hong Xiuquan's version of Christianity, and the stated beliefs of Moon.

[mordarlar]

16. Honestly my brain is seriously on overload. I am most interested...

in the relationship between this strange and VERY POWERFUL man and our government. For some reason Moon seems to THINK he has control. This is concerning in light of the fact that the current "faith" storm has some STRONG links to Moon's group. That money from Moon's coffers keeps finding it's way into the pockets of the bush family and religious leaders.

And most concerning is the idea Moon has, that he was the reason ghwb did not win re-election. Especially, considering the fact that ghwb began running around as a Moon testimonial shortly after gwb succeded in stealing an election.

I am saving your post. I do find theology fascinating and will want to look at it at some point. Thank you.

[The Magistrate]

17. Understood, Ma'am

The Taiping is a particular interest of mine. It is the largest rebellion, and probably the bloodiest episode of war, in human history, including the Second World War, certainly in percentage terms, and probably in absolute ones as well.

[mordarlar]

19. Then i am especially grateful to you for sharing it with me. : )

[The Magistrate]

20. And Your Concern With The Unification Church, Ma'am

Is shared by me. It is an organization with a good deal more influence than it ought to have, dating back to the days of Nixon.

[intheflow]

25. Welcome back, Magistrate.

You seem like a level-headed guy. Can you recommend a good link or book for reliable information on Moon's early years of influence in American politics?

[The Magistrate]

30. Not Off-Hand, Sir

My acquaintance with the thing originated from recruiting literature in the early years of the thing here; they had a house established on our block. Connections with Nixon were much in the news back then; he presented himself as an anti-Communist leader, and donated sums of money that were much appreciated.

[intheflow]

32. Thanks.

I was a young'un in those years, so appreciate the background info.

And I'm a Ma'am in your vernacular. :hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. As he is intertwined with the present administration. He is now

receiving funds from our government re "faith based initiatives". The Moon organization is being given those funds to "combat" AIDS in Africa. They teach abstinence only. Seems like slow,painful, passive genocide to me........

[fooj]

198. THEY TEACH ABSTINENCE ONLY? Where have we heard that before?

"Faith based initiatives...abstinence only"- sure sounds like this parallels Shrub doctrine!

[notadmblnd]

70. I don't know if you folks have read it

but you really must see the article that was posted on the Greatest Threads page regarding the Christian Mafia. It gives a lot of insight on how these religions are all connected and how they operate.

[intheflow]

91. Do you have a link to that, notadmblnd? n/t

[notadmblnd]

97. here ya go

its a very long read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=110716

[intheflow]

108. Well, I've stuck with this thread this far so

you know I'm not intimidated by "long reads." LOL. Thanks for the link.

[notadmblnd]

113. your welcome, when you're done with that... look at this

snip

A landmark study on the commercial sexual exploitation of children was concluded by the University of Pennsylvania’s School of Social Work in 2001. The chilling report issued by the researchers was completely ignored by the U.S. media. That no doubt was due in part to the rather curious timing of the release of the report: it was issued on September 10, 2001 – less than twenty-four hours before the World Trade Center towers came crashing down. Written by Richard J. Estes and Neil Alan Weiner, the study notes that the era of “economic globalization, internationalization, and free trade” has been accompanied by a “dramatic rise worldwide in the incidence of child exploitation … Child pornography, juvenile prostitution and trafficking in children for sexual purposes have emerged as significant problems on the national, regional, and international stages. So, too, has child sex tourism.3 The ugly reality is that, in the global marketplace, everything has a price tag – including the sexual services of our children. The study also revealed, “CSE and the CSEC appear to be related in complex ways with other forms of child exploitation, such as the use of children in labor, drug and warfare settings.”

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Pedophocracy/child_sexual_abuse_in_US.htm

let me know it you think I'm crazy or not..

[Catherine Vincent]

12. You know I am surprised that this Rev. Moon guy doesn't have his

own channel like other right wing preachers Pat Robertson etc. Even the ones in the past...Swaggert, Jim Baker, etc. Are his sermons ever televised? Why is his deal not nationalized.

[Minstrel Boy]

52. Some links on Moon, his blackmailing Bush and the "Christian" Right

from my blog:

The Life and Moonie Times of George HW Bush

Heavenly Deception

Full Moon

Moon owns the "Christian" right. And much of his money comes from Octopus industries, like the narcotics trade and covert arms dealing.


Falwell and Moon.

He's convinced hundreds of churches to remove their crosses, for crowns.


"In response to Rev. Moon's teachings on the cross, Rev. John Kingara takes down the cross at the Worldwide Greater Mission Church in Worchester, MA on Good Friday, April 18, 2003 as members of his congregation look on."

Of course, the crown is his own.


Moon's "enthronement" ceremony last year in the Capitol's Dirksen Building.

[Donailin]

57. OK, as an impartial observer with a little common sense

i would wager that moon, who was once despised by the right,has gotten some dirt on key politicians. Enough so that a deal was made: my paper will endorse your party and the right will endorse my crowning. The repubs in moons pocket don't actually believe moon is divine, but they keep him pacified with his wacky ceromonies.

So I wonder what photos moon has.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

61. Also remember that the Moonie Times was the main investigative

source reporting the child prostitution ring that Papa Bush was allegedly involved with. Excellent blackmail opportunity.

[fooj]

207. Most definitely. Great way to show Shrub Sr. who is REALLY in charge

[mordarlar]

5. Very nice way to start intheflow. : )

[intheflow]

38. Thanks.

I couldn't have done it without you (and everyone else who helped make this monster). :hi:

[DemonFighterLives]

76. That is an awesome job

:hug:

[imaginary girl]

6. I'm guessing the relative silence for the thread has to do with

us not knowing quite where to go from here? If the White announcement is to be believed, this will apparently come out through other channels than us and it will only be a matter of time. If not, it doesn't mean our hypothesis is incorrect, yet it may mean that we are going to have to keep digging in order to try to come up with more conclusive evidence or connections.

Until we know for sure about the White info, I suppose we should continue with our e-vestigations ...

[mordarlar]

11. I am confused about one thing...Why now. If that story is true, why not...

come clean a week ago?

[imaginary girl]

24. Investigating? Making contact? Planning strategy?

[mordarlar]

28. Makes sense. Thanks

[EFerrari]

196. mordarlar, look at my #182 n/t

[slaveplanet]

49. I wouldn't trust White

not without rock solid proof.

and Gunderson sold stinger missles to OBL. (see item #1)


That being said ..Stew Webb himself says that Gannon is definetly Gosch &
that Rove is pissed because the bloggers outed his boyfriend.

what to believe? Nothing but proof will do.....

be careful

[sojourner]

126. yeah, well

that doesn't do anything for/against him in my mind. As I recall, this government supported OBL in the beginning - helped make him. Nobody here believes that FBI/CIA means "good guy" in the old cowboy wearing a white hat sense, do they?

[slaveplanet]

152. The problem Isn't

with the info , It's that Gunderson completly slammed Webb and was denying he did this stuff on his radio show , until Webb produced this and other documents, Gunderson had to come clean...



There are good/bad FBI/cia just like every organization...

[sojourner]

154. Didn't know 'bout that....

thanks for straightening it out. So it is just going to be one hell of a ride as we try to pull through the different bits of info and figure out who can/cannot be trusted.

Earlier, someone mentioned "stomping all over the evidence". I guess I'm getting worried that we might be doing just that. (sigh)

[slaveplanet]

159. And the problem

With Webb , is he makes many other claims that don't seem to be backed up.

[fooj]

10. Thanks for making sure our "lack of history" question stays out there.

Why is it that NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY
has stepped up, tried to sell a story, or virtually admit that they knew this man when he was a teenager or a young adult? Think about his recent behavior patterns. This guy is NO WALLFLOWER! He's brazen, obnoxious and an in-your-face loudmouth. Yet, NOBODY knew this idiot when he was younger? Think back for a moment. How many of us knew guys (and girls, for that matter) like this 20 or so years ago? Don't we remember something about them because of their "need to be in the spotlight"...and their abrasive, cocky persona? Hell, I can recall of few of those jackasses firsthand! Was this guy just beamed down 20 years ago, or what? This is what troubles me. Where the hell is the history on this jerk?

He claims to be a devout Christian, correct? Where are his fellow parishioners, his pastors, etc.? Didn't he have a job to support himself throughout his late teens and twenties? However, we have no previous employers, no ex-employees, no acquaintances...no nada! I find the lack of history questionable, at best.

Wow, intheflow...Great set-up you've got going here. Thanks!!

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Glad that you reiterate this in every thread, fooj.

:thumbsup:

[fooj]

18. I hope that it's not too annoying...I feel like it bears repeating.

Such an important piece that seems to have fallen into a black hole...
I think if we can find that piece we have the puzzle. Repetition brought to you by "Orwell Fooj"...

[FreedomAngel82]

27. I thought with Guckert

he said he was a two-day "Christian"? (like he's Christian for two days and the rest of the year he takes off :eyes: )

[sojourner]

43. well...according to propagannon,

Susan says she's talked to 2 people who went to college with Gannon. (she hasn't revealed specifics, or even further generalities, so I don't know what to make of that).

And Guckert hasn't really claimed to be such a devout Christian...on his websites he claims to be a fairly lax observer. Only since his "outing" has he become I. Christian.

[fooj]

48. Understood. Still missing so much history on the guy...

[merh]

101. So when she says talk, did she "talk" or communicate on line?

How did she verify that they were who they claimed to be and/or that attended the WCU?

I have trouble with "talked" to to verify with no supporting docs.

[Andy_Stephenson]

103. Amen

Short of DNA evidence at this point I am not going to believe anyone except the momma.

[merh]

111. You've got that right!

There are jurors who stay on the jury just to write the book, there are well meaning people who remember the name and not the face and say, ya, I knew him when, there may even be those that want us to accept that the 1980 JD Guckert is Gannon and move on.

I'm with Andy, only one I will believe is NG - of couse DNA will be required after that.

[sojourner]

122. lol...I'm with y'all. Makin' coffee earlier, I was just thinking 'bout how

if/when this all shakes out, we (the tinfoilhatters :tinfoilhat:) are going to insist on DNA testing before we accept that Jeff is/isn't Johnny. Assuming mom gives him the nod. :)

[sojourner]

119. So much of what they have over there is completely under wraps;

that's one of the pieces. Go to "Jeff Gannon" in "Investigations" and you'll find the link under Karmak. That way you can see for yourself. OR I can get the link and bring here. Sorry - tired. Not enough coffee yet.

And, BTW, that's one of the reasons I prefer our thread discussions. Good synergy, no "boss" - group process governs - and it's open. I like open.

[understandinglife]

177. See #171. The Karmack stuff was posted in wrinkles 5....

....and, I agree, keeping the threads 'open' and logging info to Demopedia (and a big THANK YOU to 'intheflow' for setting up the 'Gannongate Wrinkles' Demopedia resource) works very well.

Peace.

[fooj]

214. Me, too! Peace!

[flyarm]

14. merh: answer to your question: Who are alisha , paul

these were all young teenagers or younger when abuse occured with larry king ..of franklin case


alisha owen ..victim /witness of franklin case made allegations against police chief omaha robert wadman

paul bonacci...victim /witness of franklin case

loretta smith...victim /witness

nelly and kimberlypaterson webb..vitims /witnesses

troy boner..victim/witness

danny king...victim /witness

[flyarm]

22. suspicious deaths surrounding the franklin case@

--shawn boner ..brother of victim troy boner who testified on video in franklin case..died of gunshot wound playing russian roulette

--mike lewis ...former caregiver for victim /witness loretta smith ......died of severe diabetic reaction..age 32


--kathleen sorenson....foster parent for nelly and kimberly webb after the ran away from larry kings relatives ..she was out spoken activist against satanism..died of suspicious car wreck

--arron owen...brother of victim/witness alisha owens found hanged in cell in lincoln neb. hours before one of his sisters court appearances

--charlie rogers homosexual partner of larry king..head blown off with shotgun ruled suicide

---dan ryan ..associate of larry king found strangled or suffocated in his car

--bill baker restaurant owner partner of larry king on pornographic operations..was found with gun shot to back of his head

[sojourner]

41. don't forget these folks...

Key investigator Gary Caradori and his son - killed in airplane crash (same day he called to notify partner that he had the "smoking gun")

Craig Spence - lobbyist involved in Franklin Coverup

William Colby - found floating in a river

[flyarm]

47. yes i know everyone knows their connection ..i am showing the connection

with the children victims /witnesses..we have gone over the others connections over and over and over again...

[sojourner]

125. thanks for clarifying

no intention of being redundant...sorry if it seems so. Will hold back when tempted..........

[merh]

92. Glad you listed those!

You had some information you asked about including in thread #10 last night, did you post it here yet, I am anxious to read it. thanks again. :thumbsup:

[merh]

85. Thank you fly for clarifying that for me.

That is what I thought, but I didn't want to make assumptions.

[imaginary girl]

21. Here's something that I've been wondering about ...

Has anyone who has read the entire book about Gosch's kidnapping clue me in on how his mom discovers her husband's involvement (and to what degree or why it existed?) I know about the phone calls she overheard, but she hints in the section Andy posted that she discovered more later on.

Also, she mentions that she later found out more about why Johnny was selected. Was this also related to the father? Or qualities of Johnny's?

Thanks!

[flyarm]

45. when she first met john decamp

when she first met john decamp he said .."nice to meet you again"..she thought that odd..she had never met him before and she said so, he then said yes he had met her years before in the 80's when she and her husband went to see paul bonacci in prison..noreen said she was never there before nor did she ever see paul bonacci..as it turned out noreens husband went to see paul, but took another woman and introduced her as noreen..it was not noreen. but The woman looked very much like noreen.
she then was told mr gosch was on the phone with someone planning the kidnapping.. i believe it was by paul bonacci..when he first saw noreen he looked at her odd..she was not the woman he saw before posing as noreen!

[mordarlar]

50. Something IS REALLY bothering me....

Please read this through before discounting it.

I am seeing an INCREDIBLE similarity to Oswald. I know we want to keep this thread on topic BUT the more Gosch/Gannon we see the more it is becoming too serious to ignore.

flyarm said in post 45

When Noreen >>>first met john decamp he said .."nice to meet you again"..she thought that odd..she had never met him before and she said so, he then said yes he had met her years before in the 80's when she and her husband went to see paul bonacci in prison..noreen said she was never there before nor did she ever see paul bonacci..as it turned out noreens husband went to see paul, but took another woman and introduced her as noreen..it was not noreen. but The woman looked very much like noreen.
she then was told mr gosch was on the phone with someone planning the kidnapping.. i believe it was by paul bonacci..when he first saw noreen he looked at her odd..she was not the woman he saw before posing as noreen!<<<


Gosch's father was seen with another woman claiming to be Noreen. This also happened with Marina Oswald. She would show up places with her "husband" Lee. The problem is sometimes Lee Harvey Oswald was known to be elsewhere or was identified as a different from the man she was with.

There are what appears to be TWO separate Guckerts. Jeff and James. They seem to both appear in what little history Gannon has confessed to. They even LOOK similar. This is a photo of J D GUCKERT (MANAGER) at a body shop called KARMAK INC.

The J D Guckert in this photo has a drivers license that says "1970" birth. This ties DIRECTLY to the age of Gosch AND the ages Gannon used on his sites.

The business is in IN West Chester. Where we KNOW James (born 1957)went to college from his Alumni photo and testimony of people who claim to know him.




It is incredibly similar to this photo

http://www.propagannon.com/filestore2/download/1132/ The conservative guy.


In both of these images the men (possibly the same man) seem SLIGHTLY different in the face than Gannon. Also we have a photo of Gannon AND a Guckert KNOWN TO BE BORN ON TWO DIFFERANT DATES.


So this means there were two J Guckerts in the same area, looking VERY similar, with different birth dates, both with connections to auto body repair or (1957) Guckert was using a false identity. If he was using a false identity (born 1970) who's was it. Jeff Guckert? Listed in the Fairview sports photos (born 1970)? (see below)

Listings from classmates.com...Jim Guckert Conneaut lake high school Conneaut, PA
1971-1975

Fairview and Conneaut are VERY close to each other. (see below)

There are also addresses in Wilmington, DE. I think Gannon used these not sure. Never did figure out where this connection is.



This J (Jeff?) Guckert was born in 1970 and comes from an Fairview VERY near Conneaut Lake PA. I think this kid looks MORE like the man in the auto body photo above than the common Gannon pics. But the Conservative Guy photo looks OLDER than the other known pics of Gannon. This would be inconsistent with it being a "younger" (jeff) Guckert. Maybe somebody (:hi: nonny) could check out both photos and see if they are similar.(AUTO BODY AND SPORTS) : )

Some are assuming that this is all the same person due to the coincidences. This would mean that Guckert was using false identities possibly since childhood.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Fairview,+PA

From propagannon...
>>>SusanG has clearly confirmed the solid belief of two Guckerts.

James D. Guckert - born 1956 - WCU - TEKE - Bedrock - FSF - Talon - wepainttrucks

J D Guckert - born 1970 - maybe Fairview HS - probably Jeff - probably Karmak

Sure, huge coincidence. Two JDG both doing truck painting. But they can't be the same. I'll bet Fairview HS yearbook is enlightening.<<<

This is the site for wepainttrucks http://www.wepainttrucks.com/


All throughout Oswald's life there were, what appears to be TWO boys that pop up. The histories of both were added to the Warren Report. We know there were two because of medical records and the impossibility of him being in two places at once.

Sometimes he would introduce himself as Lee and sometimes as Harvey. Comparing a pattern of characteristics to the times he would use each name is dead on.

The controlled, taller, military looking, man with a missing front tooth and no tonsils would go by Lee.

The shorter, rambling, less organized, man with all his teeth and tonsils would ask to be called by Harvey.

Marina had been seen with both. Each time claiming the man was her husband.

Whether this is simply the investigation is meshing the lives of two J Guckerts or there is something more sinister going on, this is all too familiar. Could we have TWO peoples lives crossing, for whatever reason?

Link to Two Oswalds with some SERIOUSLY disturbing similarities to the Guckert history.
http://home.wi.rr.com/harveyandlee/

The kids are up. Will check in later.

[Minstrel Boy]

53. thanks for that

John Armstrong's "Harvey and Lee" research is amazing and seriously mindblowing stuff. But there are documented cases of "dopplegangers" used in intelligence work.

[EFerrari]

54. I thought the point of muddling LHO's identity was

to make it easier to set him up?


It's weird, because you could say, it makes it nearly impossible to pin him down anywhere, and so keeps him safer (that's how it would be sold to him, right?)

But the way it played out, he was blamed for things he might not have done -- time spent in Mexico, activities in the USSR, buying weapons. That kind of thing. It all just stuck to this one man, this one body where in reality it seemed that there were at least two people, probably more, being used to build up a "history" with the name "LHO".

I wonder if there is an "identity" JD Gukert, that has an enhanced history, developed by more than one person? And if one of these people is the person of interest to us? In other words, all this does not revolve around the person of interest to us, he was just caught up in the JDG project?

Does that work or not?

[Minstrel Boy]

58. Before Oswald was set up, he was an intel asset,

and there is evidence he was doubled long before the Kennedy assassination. Even before Kennedy came to office.

[Donailin]

60. All JFK scholars agree that there was a conspiracy.

with the exception of maybe two. This conference was aired on C-span a couple of months back, but I can't find it.


http://www.forensics.duq.edu/conference/2003objectives.html

[DemonFighterLives]

67. I saw that

Cyril Wecht rocks. They had one fellow reporting the opposing position (ala lone assassin). He was basically laughed out of the room, but Cyril at least left him speak. I don't remember the lone nut, but he had phony information gathered from others.

[EFerrari]

72. I saw some of it. It was great.

(I've also seen the plaque at Clay Shaw's house in New Orleans. :hi: )

[DemonFighterLives]

75. Can you help me on the plaque?

Amazing that I have mainly been toggling between this thread and the Kennedy poll thread. :tinfoilhat:

[EFerrari]

80. Then, you'll like this.

I took a break last night, and went into the study to find my husband.

He was reading American Tabloid! lol

Remember Stone's "JFK"? Clay Shaw was the man the put on trial so the conspiracy could be aired out in open court. This was in New Orleans, and in honor of the tril (or the move?) there is now a plaque on the house where Shaw lived.

[Kansas Wyatt]

220. Just one thing on the JFK Assassination - New Orleans...

After reading over these wrinkle threads, now the David Ferry and Clay Shaw stuff starts to make more sense.

[EFerrari]

66. Exactly. n/t

[mordarlar]

84. Yes precisely. There may be a pattern of creating "in case of need"

It could be that this would be a secondary purpose of the child mind control stuff. If so it would seem that Guckert's number was drawn. Question still remains... Why?

Thank you by the way. :hi:

[mordarlar]

62. Just like Oswald there HAS to be a REASON this man was ALLOWED access to..

the spotlight. Just what was he being used for? What is the purpose of the JDGProject ? We know after the fact what it was for Oswald. What would be likely here?


I feel like we need to work two histories instead of simply trying to fit it all into one.

Follow Gosch forward from the time he was lost and Guckert back.


Gosch went west after he was taken? Was this before or after he was in Aquinos presence? (I am on no sleep sorry about accuracy)

Is there any pattern between the historical records of "Jeff" Guckert born 1970 and what is known of Gosch's life? Do Jeff's parents past addresses show a "west" local around the time when Johnny first went missing? Have we seen marriage records for a June (76)and possibly a Donald G guckert (71)? June and Donald lived in Conneaut Lake. (interesting about Donald, a search shows a Donald at age 71, but on a previous post i showed an obit for him several years before. Died Oct. 18, 96. at 64)

So who were Jeff's parents (in fairview)?

From what i have seen it appears june and robert MOSTLY lived in this same area (in or near Conneaut Lake where a student named Jim Guckert attended school). I have not seen anything really extensive on them tho.

Is it possible that Gosch was moved from one family to another? Often through the history of Oswald (when he was a child) he was known to be in two different states EACH with a MOTHER. Yet early records for one of the boys showed him living with his "father" in NY. Oswalds father died of a heart attack before Oswald was born. So he was "moved" to a different caretaker at least once.

One obvious problem with all of this is the fact that Guckert from the TEKE (known to be Gannon) IS THE ONE that resembles Johnny. The age is older. We know a J D Guckert was working in West Chester and that he was Johnny's age. But how could someone THAT much younger attend college? I think the only possibility would be that the younger STOLE the identity of the OLDER after College. People keep seeing James possibly using Jeff's identity. I see it the opposite. Jeff using James'.

It is mind bending stuff. But i do appreciate the consideration.

[EFerrari]

68. I was thinking along the same lines.

If someone in that line of work (what?!) gets attention, it's for a reason.

[T Town Jake]

63. Oh, Jeesuz, Joseph & Mary...

...Surely you fucking jest - you're now trying to link Gannon/"Guckert" to Lee Harvey Oswald???
Just when one couldn't imagine that these threads could get any sillier, all of a sudden they do...
:eyes:

[mordarlar]

64. You are welcome to PASS on my insanity. Have a nice day.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

65. I think you made an excellent point. Not insane at all. n/t

[EFerrari]

71. It's an important point. It would be helpful to understand

the paradigm, the way an "identity" is created, maintained and used.

[EFerrari]

69. No, you missed the point.

We're thinking about how identity is constructed for intelligence assets. There is nothing silly about that.

[Sparkle]

132. Anything is possible. If they did it once, they can do it again.

The CIA is capable of anything.

[Andy_Stephenson]

83. Your Idea of two men named JD

struck me back in thread 8. sfexpat said the writings of "JD" looked different. I have even noticed at times that JD does not look like JD...I dunno...I just don't know.

[mordarlar]

89. The pieces just are not fitting conventionally.

:shrug:

[Andy_Stephenson]

93. No they don't...

that is why I keep coming back to the 2 man theory. It fits for some reason.

[Liberal In Texas]

110. And don't forget. Not only could an operative (or mind-controlled victim)

have assumed someone else's identity when convenient one moment, and someone else's at another, there is that MPD factor.

As DeCamp and others bring up, these kidnapped abused kids end up with several personalities compartmentalized in their heads. It is a defense mechanism that is an apparent natural reaction to horrific abuse.

The theory goes (and I'm sort of just remembering what I've read), that the controllers use this factor to build distinctly different personalities that they can trigger with certain codes.

In the case of G/G/G, is he exhibiting one "compartmentalized" personality for his current public persona? Is his real (Gosch) personality still there and buried? Does he have even further identities that can be elicited when necessary?

[libertypirate]

217. Just a question wouldn't that be the point?

If you were going to hide something well, make it hard to map.

[12345]

100. That photo montage that was posted in an earlier thread lends credence

to this theory. Do you remember it? Someone had collected about 6 or seven photos of gannon/guckert. I kept thinking at the time that maybe people were mistaken about Jeff Gannon the reporter being Jeff Gannon the male prostitute. The 2 person theory could help explain it.

[EFerrari]

109. About the dissociation possibility

If I were posting to my own website, then dissociated, wouldn't I notice the next time I read it? And, rewrite? What are the chances of me posting to the site while dissociating? Probably not great.

Also, people with that condition seem to have "safe" activities. When a buddy of mine is at work, for example, he never has episodes. It's like a protected space.

It is possible that we are looking at someone who is dissociative, but it hasn't left footprints in the writing. Again, pillar of salt warning.

[sojourner]

128. oy.

:scared:

[fromBrooklyn]

129. Applying Occam's razor -

Could the dopple-ganger Guckert then be the "brother" that Guckert referred to when saying his mother and brother were being harrassed?

I didn't realize "Fairview" and "Conneaut Lake" were so close, knowing explains a lot viz the proximity of these two Guckert 'sightings.'

The Younger Guckert could even be from ... another marriage - hang on, do we have a date when the father died?

More and more I think I am drawn away from the literal diagnosis that Guckert is Gosch (please note, only literal).
As a character archetype to over-lay on Guckert (to try and make him make sense), I was reminded of a conversation I had with my neighbor about Andrew Cunnan a couple months ago. (It was appropos of con-men) He was telling us about other gay men he's known who 'were' whatever crowd of people they were hanging around with at the time (specifically my neighbor had run into the same guy three times over a four or five year period. The first time they met this guy said he was in advertising, the second time on Wall street (when X pointed out the discrepancy, the guy simply stated that he had just shifted jobs.) The third time they met, at some party, my neighbor let this guy take him home (to the Waldorf!) and was promptly robbed blind (guy gone in the morning, bill charged to my neighbors CCard). When he asked the host for some info on the guy so he could maybe get a little restitution, the host said he believed the guy was a lawyer working in mid-town, and there were a couple people looking for him.

Not saying it's one way or the other, just maybe a way to think of this guy.

[mordarlar]

137. The brother is two years older according to some sources...

I understand what you are suggesting. I would say this is the most likely scenario except that we now have TWO documented places. So it is either one man using two IDs, or two men suspiciously similar with different ages and IMO slightly different appearance.

Either way it is unusual


:shrug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

148. Jeff of Fairview can even be a cousin. There are 26 Guckerts listed

in the White Pages for Pennsylvania.

[sojourner]

141. Link to dobs, names of possible identities of family members

lifted from another site. (Think I'm gonna get in trouble for lurking there and bringing info here? :shrug: )

Name of possible brother is Thomas. He's two years younger than the older Jim. Link to thread where I posted what they have (which comes from an ancestry search I believe): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3225014&mesg_id=3226752

[mordarlar]

144. I think it is two years older. Jim was supposedly born in 57.

GUCKERT, THOMAS G CONNEAUT LAKE, PA 16316 Age 49 DOB 06/1955

[sojourner]

153. yep....see link in my previous post n/t

[fooj]

218. Mordarlar-check this out!!!

notadmblnd posted #113.............
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Pedo...

"Most trafficked children have available to them a variety of false identity papers to use in case of arrest."

Supports your claim that "This would mean Guckert was using false identities possibly since childhood"

I think you are on to something...

[sojourner]

29. thanks intheflow! nice work n/t

[mordarlar]

33. Well off to get a few hours sleep. Night all.

[intheflow]

40. I'm also off to bed.

(hesitantly shuffling off to bed, almost afraid to see what crazed new life this thread will have taken in the morning...) LOL

G'night! :boring:

[Dookus]

36. I don't care what y'all say...

Gannon is the Lindbergh baby!

[EFerrari]

95. I have textual evidence he wrote the plays of Shakespeare : )

[subtropolis]

39. lots of Spence-related stuff

Some more about the Spence thing in Washington if you're interested:
sexual compromise at the capital data dump
Lots to wade through there.
Speaking of which - thanks to all of those who've been on this story. This is all too weird. I've been looking into this stuff for about a year, when i saw something about the Franklin Coverup. The hints of a connection a couple of weeks ago were intriguing. Then i see that photo of Jr.'s warm tete-a-tete with Gannon. Then HST shoots himself and i'm like, no way... uh-uh.

I don't know what to think.

[DemonFighterLives]

73. Welcome to DU!

All very strange right now, but I think the difficulty in finding G/G/G is related to the fact that he is in deep cover. You can uncover one aspect and reveal many more paths to go on.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. I missed the photo of Jr.'s warm tete-a-tete with Gannon! Where is it?

I would like to see it. Interesting link you posted. There's a lot of info there! Are Jerry Seper and Michael Hedges, Washington Times, still around/alive? I'll google them. ;)

[subtropolis]

115. warm tete-a-tete

Sorry - i really had to catch some zzzs. I can't remember where i saw it (just a few days ago, but i've been working like mad the past week and i just can't remember). Image was 2 photos, tight shots of Jr. and someone who looks a lot like Gannon (back to camera). 1st: Jr. Has a *real* warm smile on his face, and, i think, raising his right had towards G. 2nd: Bush has leaned in and appears to be saying something to Gannon (or whoever it is) who is leaning forward. Jr.'s right hand is holding G's head just above and behind his ear. It seems to be a rather fond way to be holding him. I'm describing it because maybe someone else will know what i'm talking about. Maybe someone can post it. Really, i should have said this in the first place. I suppose there's no point in bringing it up unless we can all see it.

I've been meaning to read "The Franklin Coverup" since coming across the story a year ago. I've just ordered my copy of it finally.

[in_cog_ni_to]

121. Thanks for the description. Maybe someone can post the pics? Any DUer?

have them?

Welcome to DU, btw! :hi:

[intheflow]

143. Maybe you're thinking of this picture?

I first saw it on DU, but can't find the post it was in. I found this via a DU link t http://juliusblog.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_juliusblog_archive.html#108300556134138351.

I think this photo was discounted because the bald guy seems too short to be G/G, but maybe Bush was on a platform or something. Who knows?

[shadowlight]

123. I think the shots

you are referring to are here. I don't think they are Gannon, though.
http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000681.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

127. That looks like an African American to me. The skin is a lot darker?

Does anyone else think so? Was it verified that Gannon was at that particular event where the idiot-in-chief is making goo-goo eyes at and "lovingly" hugging him? I wonder where they are?

[Sparkle]

134. Yes, that is an AA man. That pic was included with other pics

of bald headed men with Bush. I don't know why some continue to show that pic stating it's Gannon when it clearly is not.

[sojourner]

136. I agree with you -- complexion too dark. Hair texture wrong too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. I would cut off my right arm to see the names on these receipts!

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1570946.php

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. I forgot to ask. Who is "HST" in your post? n/t

[hootinholler]

88. That would be Hunter S. Thomson N/T

[nostamj]

102. HST = Hunter S. Thompson

recently deceased gonzo journalist (unless there's another "HST")

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. Thanks. n/t

[subtropolis]

116. Oh, and yes - Hunter S. Thompson n/t

[Blue Gardener]

51. Kicking for the morning crowd

Apparently we missed quite a discussion last night!

[hootinholler]

81. And Now For Something Completely Different

Apologies to MPFC. All the Moonie stuff floating around here got me thinking. Has anyone contacted Paul M. Rodriguez and George Archibald? These guys are the reporters who wrote the WT piece on the HW white house tours. After looking for them, maybe we don't want to contact them.

Apparently PMR is now the managing editor of Insight Magazine, Owned by the WT. Among that Magazine's favorite links on its website, are Drudge and the ubiquitous, at least to this story, GOPUSA.

GA appears to still be reporting for the WT.

The article from 1989 has an intersting spin. Just enough information to lead somewhere, but yet, still quashable. This gives intuitive weight to the idea the article was a warning or a threat to those involved.

In trying to find follow-up articles and recent hit-pieces, I've hit a wall. Unfortunately, the WT archive search appears to be hosed, giving unrelated results when searching for the author's names. Google, apparently does not index the WT. This has frustrated me in looking for other articles by these gentlemen.

Another viable possibility in trying to uncover the trail since 1989 would be Stanley Mark Tapscott, the Asst. Editor of the times who was reported to have resigned in the 1989 article. The paragraph relating this seems to me to be written oddly in the third person. I think if he can be located, he might have some insight on the inner workings of the WT. Was the piece used to obtain a convenient dismissal?

Just some thoughts on stuff to look at.

-Hoot

[EFerrari]

82. Hoot, do you have the last article you mentioned, or a link? n/t

[sickofit2]

86. Connection to LHO..

I was thinking well what did they use LHO double identity for? This is definitely uncovering, I think, the CIA's operation of assasins, or anything that they want to use the doubles for... they abuse the kids, brainwash them, groom them, set them up.. create two to cover tracks and make up a life that would be impossible for "one" to participate in and they are out there until their "assignment" is ready. I don't know I think I am going crazy with the rest of ya. Good work though, this is history in the making and uncovering....unless this one,Gannon, like someone brought up a while back,did not take to the "brainwashing" split personality methods, and woke up... now he is reverse blackmailing.. could be interesting.

[EFerrari]

94. Two thoughts or, near thoughts.

1. We're definitely looking at a model here for the way these assets are run. (And, have to ask myself, do I really want to know?!)

2. I want to follow Andy's suggestion and look at the Anderson Cooper interview to get a feel for where this particular JDG is in all this. Is he still being run? Is he on the sidelines now? What is his status?

(His new website is being run with FrontPage, so you have to know there is no money behind it -- unlike GOPUSA, for example.)

And everytime he says he is being harassed or victimized, I wonder if he is - just not by the Left as he always claims. So much not to know :)

[Andy_Stephenson]

96. Do you have the interview?

Or should I send it to you?

[EFerrari]

104. I don't have it. Hmm. Can you do it easily?

I remember thinking, this guy is afraid of something. Want to go back and see why. Could have been my projection or, he could have been listening.

[Andy_Stephenson]

106. pm me a mail address with a big capacity

and I will send it right now.

[EFerrari]

117. I watched it first with no audio, and will be gone for a few hours but

Do you notice how still he is? His body below the neck is really still and tense. Only three hand movements or so the whole segment. Towards the end, he relaxes more but this is someone who does not want to be on camera but also, who has lots of practice holding himself still. Military?

Also, what's up with all that blinking? Being on camera can be intimidating, and the lights are really hot. But, you get used to it after a few minutes. His blinking didn't get better.

And, a couple of times, he sort of wrenches his body to the side, as if he's wanting to get up.

[mordarlar]

107. Do you have the video? I would like to see it. Comp was not working at

the time. : )

[Andy_Stephenson]

118. Pm me with an

email address that has a large capacity and I will send it along to you.

[mordarlar]

124. Consider yourself PM'd : )

[shadowlight]

156. Gannon on 360

http://mediamatters.org/topics/gannongate.html

[subtropolis]

120. be careful

If the story has legs, let it walk before trying to run with it or it'll trip itself up. These people are very good at getting themselves out of trouble in the media. Bring LHO at this stage and you give them ammunition to shoot it down

Not that it's so left-field... (what the heck is left-field anymore, anyway?)

[intheflow]

133. Agreed.

The LHO connection almost dooms our efforts from the get-go. Not--as you said--because it's so far afield, but because the LHO stuff by itself is so disputed in the main stream. Makes me very wary of drawing parallels and connections.

I think I also feel a jinx factor in my gut by equating the two. :shrug:

[Andy_Stephenson]

135. I agree...we are investigating

Gannon/Guckert/Gosch...we need to stay focused on that. Adding in LHO is a trap and will waste valuable research energy.

[Liberal In Texas]

139. Hear Hear!

And I also think the Moonie thing is getting off the track. It may have some bearing on things in the future, but I think right now the most important thing is the G/G/G connection.

[understandinglife]

150. Focus. Focus. And please.....

....stay clear of LHO stuff until we know, at a minimum, who "Gannon" is.

Thank you.

[mordarlar]

142. I did not mean to suggest we should look for connections to LHO

More that we should consider this as a potential pattern in investigating. It should not be the only pattern. We are looking for things to fit and we should consider that they could have been MADE, specifically, to NOT fit.

[Sparkle]

145. What is LHO?

[Andy_Stephenson]

146. Lee Harvey

Oswald

[hootinholler]

98. It's in the original...

A copy with other stuff on indybay.org is here. Page 2 column 1, paragraph 6, not counting the partial paragraph heading the column.

There were a series of follow on articles in the WT written by various people that I haven't found reproduced on the net, only tersly summarized. There were also a few in the WP.

-Hoot

Edit to fix link.

[in_cog_ni_to]

99. try this

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/sexandcapitol7,18,01.htm#article14

There's a ton of articles from the Times at this link.

[EFerrari]

112. Thanks! n/t

[hootinholler]

114. Nice Collection there. N/T

[fromBrooklyn]

131. The Moonies in the Bush.

(think about that for a sec. yoiks).

"Minstrelboy" ahs a nice summing up of this connection on his blog Rigorous Intuition -
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/life-and-moonie-times-of-george-hw.html

Very reasonable, compelling stuff. I'm not sure how it applies here, though.

[fob]

130. Regarding Nonny's Gosch to Guckert side-by-side overlay

In that overlay Nonny says Guckert's pic has been "flipped". I assumed on reading that that meant it was done to get the head tilt to match up but doesn't that mean Guckert's LEFT side is being compared to Gosch's RIGHT side? Shouldn't the match-up be more "off" then?

Or am I missing something?

Edit: I forgot to add that Intheflow's post here is awesome and should be the stadard to which we all strive for when connecting threads. 3 Cheers to you!!

[intheflow]

147. I thought the same thing, fob.

So I tried flipping pictures of myself in Photoshop. That didn't work well, but I think it's because I look at myself in the mirror every day so the least bit off looks off to me. When I did the same thing with pictures of my boyfriend and my son, it worked just fine. I couldn't see any difference in them from the originals. ("Originals" meaning both photos and my guys.)

[libertypirate]

170. Flipping won't change symmetry

A face is symmetrical to it's self so flipping an image for alignment purposes will enhance specifically the elements that don't line up. The differences between the two images would stand out more then if one of the images were not flipped.

Have you ever cut the shape of a heart out of a piece of paper? It is not easy to make symmetrical unless you fold it in half. Along the folded axis the heart will line up no matter which way it is folded in half. If you free hand cut a heart out of paper it’s pretty clear that the axis will not line up regardless of fold direction.

If we were talking about two different folded hearts cut on different days even with knowing what the original shape looked like it would be nearly impossible to create identical shaped hearts. If the two hearts were the exact shape but different sizes, and you equally grew the dimensions of the smaller one to the size of the larger one; again would act to enhance the differences more then the similarities.

Even though the size of a picture has been adjusted and it might have been flipped; closely aligning two images will highlight the differences more.

When I look at the merged images even with one flipped I see very few differences and many more similarities. The likely hood and I am sure there is a statistic on this that these two different images have almost identical facial structure is very low. The nose would be too high or low; or something else noticeable would be way out of place. Not the case with the Gannon\Gosch images, while there are people that look identical to one another rarely does that include the location of predominate facial features.

It’s not proof but it damn hard to deny they could not be the same person. There is one way to be absolutely sure; there was mention of other siblings. If the photos of the Gosch siblings are enhanced over the Gannon images and we get similar results, it would be pretty freaking hard to deny. They won't be as close as the one we have done but features from one will be correct and maybe features from another would be differently correct.

Brothers and Sisters are the closest genetically to anyone else on the plant. Their features would show much of the same structure as one another.

My 2 cents

[Liberal In Texas]

179. Actually, I must disagree with some of what you say...

It's technically called "flopping" not "flipping". Flipping is turning the image upside down. Flopping is like having a transparency and turning it over.

Also, almost no one's face is symmetrical. That is why we're always surprised to see ourselves on a video monitor when a camera is pointed at us. We see ourselves in mirrors all the time, and are used to that image.

As a matter of fact, people who have very close to symmetrical faces are usually not judged to be as good-looking as people with asymmetrical faces.

I really think that by flopping an image of a face to compare it with another un-flopped image you're defeating the purpose of getting an accurate comparison. However, that said, who is to know the image you're looking at wasn't flopped before it was printed/posted in the first place? It happens all the time.

-no links, don't ask, just years and years in the media and having read a lot.

[libertypirate]

184. The flopping term might be correct but I strongly...

disagree with the rest of your assessment. If an image is flipped it will most certainly show a greater number of inaccurate features then if it is not, the structure of the face stands out.

Technically it's called flipping the image on it's vertical axis, if you want to be technical. Different industry different term.

You are correct almost no ones face is perfectly symmetrical, and beauty is thought to come from the subtle imperfections in the symmetry. However everyone’s face is more symmetrical to itself then it is to any another person even over time; some more than others. This is why the comparison is not only valid but extremely telling.

It's not fool proof.

[Liberal In Texas]

186. Sorry, but how does flopping show "inaccurate" featues?

What do you mean by inaccurate? And what good is that in comparing 2 photographs from differnt eras?

(Flopping is the term used by the print industry: photography, newspapers, magazines, etc.)

[libertypirate]

203. Structure is more specific to individuals.

Structure, positioning of features don't change in relation to themselves they remain in the same related position on the face. Someone’s nose might be changed but you won't find that nose in a different place in relation to the rest of a persons features on their face.

If you ever looked at a grouping of pictures of the same person, perhaps all of their school pictures as a child. What doesn't change identifies who they are, which is the relationship between facial features not the features themselves. Our brains are hardwired to do this calculating for us.

There are always multiple methods of looking at anything the more uncommon the view, the more our brains look for. The brain likes to decide and fill in the blanks without anyone knowing it. Hence a mirror image that aligns with a non-mirror image structurally identifies a higher provability of a match. Your brain has a harder time being fooled that's all.

[Liberal In Texas]

221. No.

Take 2 of the same pictures of your own face, or your brother's or whatever. Flop one and superimpose it over the other, they won't match. Becuase faces are not inherently symmetrical!

Those of you who are trying to match 2 pictures from differnt eras by flopping one, are trying to compare dissimilar objects.

Look at this:


from
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.adrianbruce.com/Symmetry/split/split.htm&h=208&w=400&sz=16&tbnid=3JMTQLlkoDEJ:&tbnh=62&tbnw=119&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dface%2Bsymmetry%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

When you take a mirror imaged of just one half the face to complete the other half, and repeat for the other side, it looks like different people.

Also, I'm not even exactly sure what this exercise if for. Everyone is pretty darn sure Gannon and Guckert are the same person. I think even he has said so.

Now Gosch...that's what has to be proven.

And I think the only way will be with DNA.

[mordarlar]

188. Unless one of the photos were artificially created

it would be near impossible to find such a match using different subjects. Regardless of flopping. If they are not one and the same it is a STUNNING similarity.

I totally agree that a person is more likely to be symmetrical to their own features by half than they would to another.

[shadowlight]

172. Try it yourself

in photoshop or other photo editing software. They are quite off, due to the flip and angle of the head. The two people look similar, though, IMO.

[fob]

223. Actuallty I think they are "quite on" and that's part of the problem

Per the poster above who seems to think it's not a big deal because the features are still the same relative distance apart regardless of the flip (or flop).

Let's use the paper heart analogy with a twist to see if I can clarify my point.

Take a piece of paper and fold it PRECISELY in half vertically and cut out a heart shape so you end up with a perfectly symmetrical heart. This level of symmetry is well beyond facial symmetry which benefits the experiment because we will be going ABOVE the precision of reality.

OK, step two take the heart and draw a left eye and a right eye, for sake of argument make one a circle and one a square and the same level centered on each shape (the different shapes will represent physical differences rather than placing them at different levels and introducing arbitrary physical differences).

Now take a hole punch and punch a few holes in ONE side.

Take a picture of this "face" at a slight angle

Take another picture at the opposite angle

Take the second picture and flip (or flop) it

Try to line up the original pic and the flopped pic. You will be trying to line up a "square eye" with a "round eye" and vice-versa on the other side. Now they will line up perfectly because we made the "eyes" at the same level but the PHYSICAL differences should be clearly evident. Remember the holes punched, they will be on the wrong side in this match up. In other words the flopped image SHOULD produce anamolies, and I don't see any in those overlays.



This is just like that bush* pic where one side of his face is obviously drooping compared to the other and if you were to flop his image and then overlay, his eyes might hit dead center and the tip of his nose but the overall shapes of each side won't correspond at all.

What am I missing?


FWIW - I think signs point to gosch is guckert is gannon so this is a "shore up the evidence" post not a "feh, it's bunk" post.

[s-cubed]

138. On the doppelganger theory:

Let's suppose you are a deep, deep organization, government or otherwise, and you need to have people whose backgrounds can be confused, like LHO. Then you might well want to have pictures of kids and then match up pictures that have enough resemblance so that in the future their identities can be confused .

Now we know from the Franklin cover up, and NG's remarks about what she saw at the congressional hearing, that there were scrapbooks of kids. People took pictures of kids and kidnapped on request.

Suppose you match up two kids - approximately the same age - and kidnap one (or both) to be your agent. The other one is still there, waiting to be the doppelganger. In addition, don't forget family resemblances. My own son looks enough like 3 of his cousins that people think he must be the 4th brother in that family. Once you have a matching pair of kids, you are likely to also have other relatives that have at least a passing resemblance to your agent.

Too far fetched?

edit: spelling

[fromBrooklyn]

140. On another note - What is the stick?

That is keeping the MSM quiet - I mean in a direct sense, yes, there is the desire not to tarnish Bush, but how is that threat viscerally conveyed?

Could it be simply that Guckert WAS Rove's boyfriend? As simple as that. Because by all accounts Rove has managed to re-define visciousness, wouldn't you not want to provoke this most viscious of political pit-bulls? (Our age's Atwater?)

That is, you aren't even going to talk about it because at the immediate other end of it, not in some hazy corner of the story, but maybe the third step in and it would be evident to everyone, is Rove?

This is what has bothered me most about this story, is something so patently wrong - has gone so well-nigh entirely un-reported (proportionally to the rest of the news, pretty much not at all). And by wrong I mean not only that he was a prostitute but the fact that he was an essential cog in the production of propaganda. Lies. And lies which have had and will continue to have a deliterious effect on our lives.

But he's Rove's boyfriend. So no-one's going to touch him.

?

[Andy_Stephenson]

149. WOW

http://intl-news.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=819

[EFerrari]

155. Bring all the cattle into the coral.

And the question was first raised 2/19 at about 2:51.

[EFerrari]

166. Ari on JDG from another GD thread

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/03/03/ari_fleischer_still_smooth_as_silk.php#more

snip

Colmes came up and after a few seconds of shmoozing asked Fleischer how someone like Jeff Gannon could get into the the White House press corp recalling that Fleischer didn't call on Gannon for quite awhile.Fleisher didn't blink explaining that the White House is inclusive and Gannon's questions were conservative not softball. When Colmes asked him if Gannon had an inside contact to get his day passes, Fleischer quickly said yes acting like it was no big deal. "How do you define who is a journalist?" He then passed off the security issue by saying that "everyone went through the same metal detectors."

comment: Fleischer's smooth cover up of the Gannon fiasco proves that he knows something significant.I also think that he knew about the question and his answer was well rehearsed and deliberate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3232867

[in_cog_ni_to]

157. WOW is right!

<snip>
This is where it gets really interesting. Bonacci also testified that he was forced in July 1984 to participate in a homosexual/pedophilic/necrophilic orgy at (what has since been identified as) the Bohemian Grove; all of which was filmed. And according to Bonacci, the man in charge of the filming was someone picked up in Las Vegas on the plane headed to the Grove, a man who Bonacci was told was one "Hunter Thompson."

No doubt most people who came across this information in the past and were familiar with Thompson's work dismissed the idea that the man behind the camera could have been the famous writer. After all, this was a man who has been fighting the like of Nixon and Bush his entire career.

But could Thompson have been brought to the Grove by someone who presented it as an opportunity to investigate what the power elite was up to behind closed doors? Could Thompson have quickly found himself in over his head, compromised, by virtue of his very presence at this horrific crime, by the men he thought he was investigating undercover? (Or perhaps compromised some other way -- perhaps for instance, he was surreptiously filmed with an adult female prostitute who was then murdered. But I digress.)<snip>




<snip>And, did that investigation have anything to do with the death of Hunter Thompson? Sherman Skolnick and Tom Heneghen at Cloak & Dagger Internet Radio say Thompson was working on a book about high-level sex rings; though they haven't offered a source. But that claim aside, we still have the timing of Thompson's reported death coinciding with these investigations. Did Thompson kill himself out of shame for his part in what happened at the Grove? Was he murdered to shut him up? Or did he fake his death to go underground while all this was breaking?<snip>

VERY GOOD article!

[hootinholler]

168. But the two paragraphs before that are more WOW to me

One of the victims of this ring was one Paul Bonacci, who testified in court proceedings that he helped kidnap Johnny Gosch into this ring in 1982. It was apparently at 2:29 AM, Sunday, Feb. 20 that the question was first asked -- is "Jeff Gannon" really Johnny Gosch?

By the end of the day, Hunter S. Thompson was reported dead.

This is where it gets really interesting. Bonacci also testified...

-=-=-=-
Thanks for sharing that one Andy!

-Hoot

[Liberal In Texas]

158. Pretty good summary for people who haven't been following the story...

...there Andy.

[Andy_Stephenson]

161. Yes very good Summary.

That is why I said WOW!

[sojourner]

162. Can we make sure this link gets posted to new wrinkle threads?

intheflow did a bang up job of setting this one up - but this summary is outstanding and reduces the number of links required....

[intheflow]

208. I'll add it to the Demopedia page...

...which I think we should use as a reference in future posts rather than cutting and pasting all that I did to start this post. It didn't cut and paste easily from my file into this message browser which is why I set up the Demopdeia page.

BTW, I'm supposed to be writing final papers this week, so won't get to do all that I want on that Demopdeia page until next week. But I'm going to try to write out the synopses in then. Get a real page going with external links, etc.

[sojourner]

151. Hey guys...

You seem to be clicking right along. My thoughts are too scattered to be of much use right now...and there are some tantalizing directions being considered here, which I need time to think over.

I'll be out of town next few days...can't wait to see what develops in the meantime. Maybe somebody here should keep popping in on the other "investigation" sites to keep abreast of other developments?

Good luck!! See ya! Can't WAIT to see what you find in that yearbook Mordarlar.........Oh, man......DU withdrawal symptoms already manifesting!!

[Andy_Stephenson]

160. Nonny are you there? I just had an idea.

Can you do a screen grab from the Anderson Cooper interview and overlay it on the picture at Jeff Gannon.com?

[mordarlar]

173. I had the EXACT same thought when i watched the interview.

My daughter watched it with me. 7 times she said, "Mom, something is wrong."

Whoa, what was up there? Not quite the same demeanor as the WH interviewer. I understand he was on the spot but he looked like he was going to crumble.

[EFerrari]

183. The website pix looks more like Jeff Gukert than Jeff Gannon.

Help me, Mr. Wizard.

[shadowlight]

192. Not Nonny, but...

Top left: From Anderson 360, Top right: from web site, Bottom left: TR over TL, Bottom left: TL over TR.
Looks like the same guy to me. The only difference I see is the apparent mark on his right cheek on the shot from his web site, very possibly due to tv make-up.

[Catherine Vincent]

197. It looks like the same guy to me too.

Gannon just looks differently on his television appearances.

[libertypirate]

213. What about the Gosch siblings?

Are there any images of them? This would be a huge indicator if we have a match or not.

[Andy_Stephenson]

163. Video Links of Gannon/Guckert

http://clips.mediamatters.org/video/gannon_blitzer.mov

Wolf Blitzer

http://clips.mediamatters.org/video/today-20050224.mov

Today Show


http://63.240.197.69/video/gannon360.mov

Anderson Cooper

[elehhhhna]

164. He's got a radio interview tonight, here:

http://www.steveyuhas.com/

[EFerrari]

191. He was on last night. n/t

[merh]

175. Here is one of his images

[in_cog_ni_to]

204. Blitzer interview..

Gannon said his Mother, BROTHER and his brother's wife had been threatened and harrassed. WHO IS HIS BROTHER AND SIL??? Have we ever found out who they are? WHO threatened and intimidated them? He's lying.

The Anderson Cooper link won't work for me.

[Catherine Vincent]

165. I pulled this from thread #10 in regards to A. Cooper's interview :w/JDG:

"Zann725--I noticed those 3 left-to-right eye jumps too. Since they did NOT occur anywhere else in the interview, it was not a behavorial habit. But looked more to me as if he were listening closely and thinking about something he was being told from an ear 'wire' perhaps?"

To me it looked like he did a triple take and that someone showed up while he was there to give him a warning or something.

[EFerrari]

167. I saw that too, but it's not in the interview I saw this morning?

On edit: maybe I've my Gannon interviews mixed up. Thanks for the links, Andy.

[hootinholler]

176. Ok, does anyone read Morse?

Those eye blinks, is he transmitting?

During the 'Nam, an airman used morse code to transmit a message during a videotaped 'confession'.

-Hoot

[Catherine Vincent]

185. I don't think so.

To do that, listen and speak to Cooper, Gannon would have to be very good at what he does. From what we've seen so far, he wouldn't be able to handle that. Unless I'm wrong. But I believe the blinks were coming fast because of the lights or he was nervous.

[Must_B_Free]

169. Pedophile shakeups as Gannon positioning into whitehouse

Web child porn ring broken
International ring included parents abusing own children
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/09/internet.child.porn.bust/

Web child porn raids across Europe
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/02/europe.porn/index.html?related

Dozens arrested in child porn probe
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/18/fbi.child.porn/index.html?related

Indonesia hunts child pornographers
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/09/indonesia.porno/index.html?related

Earliest, I have heard of Gannon in the whitehouse is March 2003

Here we see the theme again of "using their own children", as was alleged in the Gosch case.

[mordarlar]

178. OK i called the Conneaut Lake Library they have copies from 73-75

They will be open tomorrow evening so i will head over there then.

I think this is a better option than the school. The secretary asked why i wanted to see them. The librarian did not. ;)

[troubleinwinter]

180. A library should NEVER ask

why a member of the public wishes to see any particular book! GEEZ!!!

Did you answer her?

[mordarlar]

181. No, the librarian was great. The high school keeps their copies in the...

office. It was the office secretary that asked why i wanted to see them. What are you looking for i think were her words. No biggie...the library has them. I'll just head over there.

[troubleinwinter]

187. Oh, I see...

It was a school secretary? I thought you meant a sec. at the public library. I feel much better now! I didn't want library employees asking people why they wanted certain books! WHEW!

[mordarlar]

189. Sorry i was not clear.

[Catherine Vincent]

194. Good for you, mordarlar.

I'll look forward to your post. Will you post Tuesday night or will we have to wait until Wednesday?:-)

[EFerrari]

182. I have a question about the WH vs. the Intelligence community

If you were someone from the latter, and really wanted to mess up the political hacks that had hung you out to dry for 9/11, how would you do it?

[s-cubed]

202. This is strictly HYPOTHICAL - I tried to fit the facts we know,

what we think we know, and possible motivations into a plausible scenario.


Just about the same time that Gannon entered the white house, there was a wave of child porn investigations across the world & usa. Suppose he & some others gave information to some governments who followed the trail to the perpetrators, but couldn't touch the bfee? Or, maybe the investigations give gannon an idea. Or, suppose some very disgruntled CIA/FBI/XYZ agents (present or past) convinced gannon that they could help gannon bring down the bfee? Remember, many of those folks got into it because they were very patriotic, and they can see how bfee is trashing America. Whatever the reason, I think gannon wants to bring down the bfee and the child sex pornographers.

Suppose Johnny Gosch is a lot smarter than we have given him credit for. (He was supposed to be a very clever boy, and he is the chameleon). Suppose, as he told his mother in 1997 he wants to stop all this, and he can't ever return to a normal life. But, thanks to his handlers he has a ready made, confusing identity: one or more guckerts. Because of what he went through, he trusts no one, except another victim, or his mother. To them, he would show incredible loyalty, but anyone else is just someone to be used.

DC is really a very small town: rove & gannon could easily have met. Suppose gannon did become rove's boyfriend, and realized what an opportunity it gave him? Could he have decided to bring down this whole scheme, with himself as the bait?

So gannon plays rove like a fiddle and asks to become a reporter. Rove is only to happy to oblige: nothing too good for jimmy/jeff. Gannon sets the trap perfectly: he plays the good repug, to rove & others, smart, but not too smart. He leaves up his websites, and he asks more and more outlandish questions. Finally, DU gives him the opening: and he dares people to find him, "I'm hiding in plain sight".

The connections get made, the background work gets going, the scandal is dead in the MSM, but all will happen in due time. Gannon is web savvy. (He read DU!) First, he has to get all the information discovered by those hordes of tireless bloggers who will do the leg work that the MSM won't/can't do. Rove does his best to keep this out of the MSM, & does pretty well at it. But gannon, every time it starts to flag, gives it a little nudge, all the while playing the part of the injured conservative, in large part to keep from making the wh suspicions of him. But he also makes sure that he has plenty of evidence stashed away where it will be revealed if he dissappears. He doesn't want to be suicided like so many others.

Naturally, on his first interview, he'd be a little scared (lots of people commented on that), but as time went on, he'd get a little bolder. He might have a helper, a lawyer or other victim. He might even have a wh handler, but I can't believe the wh wants him talking at all: they would want him to shut up and go away. Being a clever boy, gannon might have done what the voice in the white house says: he made tapes. After all, he knows the racket, he grew up in it. And why wouldn't he want to make a lot more money than $200 per hour? Eventually, hookers get too old, and they don't have social security.

So, now we're approaching the endgame: will gannon be suicided? will he be bought off? Has he sold his evidence to a publisher? Are we doing what we need to be doing? Are we missing something?

What do all of you think?

[EFerrari]

205. I think that the political people in the WH have not made friends

in the intel community for four years.

[Catherine Vincent]

210. I am hoping that is the scenario.

But I do hope that he gets out of this unharmed (physically). He is doing a very good job of playing the victim.

[fooj]

209. I'd expose their child porn ring and watch them burn in hell!

Nice connection! Happy Monday!

[EFerrari]

219. Mordarlar gave me the idea by bringing up LHO! n/t

[fooj]

222. Check out my post #218!!

Good Afternoon! I'm exhausted over this. It certainly has taken an emotional toll...I just don't want to quit until we nail these monsters.

[EFerrari]

225. Wow. So, mordarlar was even more right on the money : )

[loritooker]

195. Is graduation date 75 or is it 76? If 1976 does library have a copy? nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

199. According to classmates.com, Jim Guckert went there through 1975. n/t

[bin.dare]

200. is Gannongate really a Rathergate ??

This thread seems to be going in the direction of admitting the existence of separate people: JG1 and JG2. If so, there is the strong possibility that JG1 was a trap to embarrass and hence belittle a news org that fell for it.

The real gem in all of this is the Gosch connection, don't let anyone or anything distract us from that.

[EFerrari]

201. Right, or to embarass someone in the WH who fell for JDG

See my #182

It's important only because it might explain the timing.

[s-cubed]

206. See my post 202 for a posible scenario.

Also, we probably ought to start thread 12.

[EFerrari]

212. I tend to agree with your post. Yes, let's start another thread. n/t

[bin.dare]

216. ah, so that is what you meant, i see ...

... yes.

now step back and what is the message communicated? if you guys (corp media) report on any "scandal" in the WH you better be doubly, tripley, certain of your "facts". That is certain to put a chill down even a hack reporters spine. I'm reminded of what happened the Mirror in the UK last year: they published photos of abuse by brit soldiers, once published the photos were easily discredited and the editor was forced to resign. Of course, the fact remained that brit soldiers had tortured iraqi but the tabloid press was chilled.

[Catherine Vincent]

211. By the way, Has Rove ever been seen since Gannongate broke?

Any signs of nervousness?

[EFerrari]

215. I haven't seen him but usually try not to! n/t

[DS1]

224. How is this any different from Gannongate Wrinkles Part 10?

[in_cog_ni_to]

226. The threads get too long to load. THAT is why new threads are started.

:hi: Not because anything is different. It's just a continuation.

[EFerrari]

227. Can someone please help start a new thread?

I know I'll screw up all those links!

[Moderator]

228. Locking

New thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3234141