Is our current situation worse politically than Vietnam and Watergate?

[grytpype]

Comparisons with Vietnam are difficult because Vietnam was a disaster on a much larger scale. We also had the draft then. But this is a similar situation. A President has committed American forces to a distant and hostile place without a clear national interest in doing so.

But worse than Watergate? Without a doubt. Ever since the November 2000 election this administration has averaged a Watergate a month. With no closure, so they tend to accumulate.

What do you say?

[madrchsod]

1. yes

in two and one half years bush and his handlers have taken this country back to the late 1800`s.

[NashVegas]

4. Worse

With corporate globalism on the rise and a major strategical chess match going on, this is no time to be having a crisis.

[pansypoo53219]

23. yes

AND THE BLOODY PRESS AIN'T ATTACKING. The bushivics are getting away with it. GRRRRRrrrrrrR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MREOW FTFTFT. HSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Frances]

2. I lived through Watergate

and this is a thousand times worse. Nixon was a crook, but he was not so obviously in bed with corporations that were raping us. Also, he did not end Vietnam as quickly as he should have, but he didn't start that war.

[grytpype]

12. My first political memory...

this is dating myself, but my first political memory was Nixon v. McGovern in 1972. I seven years old. I remember walking to school, and the girls asking each other, "Who did your parents vote for?" In class I had to correct a girl who said McGovern only got 17 votes. "Seventeen electoral votes. not seventeen votes."

And I remember listening to Nixon's resignation speech on the radio. I thought it was very sad. I was nine.

[asjr]

3. yes indeed

this is much worse than Watergate. Back in those days Repblicans had ethics and each had a conscience. They were the ones who finally acted. What we have now in Washington are Republican clones of Nixon who have NO ethics. Bush would have been long gone if it had happened in those days. As for Vietnam--Irag is not over. It will be civil war there and many more of our military will be killed. The entire country may have to surround the WH in order to evict the pResident. This crap has gone on too long.

[grytpype]

22. Nixon felt guilty about doing bush-league stuff...

.. the Republicans today do worse every day with no remorse whatsoever.

[blondeatlast]

5. Young, but I remember both.

This is much, much worse.

[teryang]

6. This is much worse

The checks and balances appear to be just about gone as the basic nature of our institutions have been corrupted beyond recognition. The cancer has metasticized.

[grytpype]

25. I wonder about the courts.

I was a judicial intern for a federal judge when Judge Sirica died. He was the judge who ordered Nixon to comply with the subpoenas in the Watergate case.

I have to wonder whether the judiciary today is prepared to become invovled in this situation with the same forthrightness.

At the time the Supreme Court decided Bush v. Gore and handed the presidency to Bush, with results we are all aware of, I had a pending application to join the Supreme Court bar. I let the application lapse.

[Eloriel]

37. grytype - check your PM

Eloriel

[lindashaw]

7. Hmmm, let's see.

I remember Watergate well. I remember how shocked I was that President Nixon used the word "asshole." It was the first time I had ever heard it spoken.

What Nixon did was abuse the offices at his disposal. He made a deal through Kissinger to put off the Paris peace talks until he could be elected president. That cost tens of thousands of lives, and in the end both sides agreed to the same terms they would have agreed to before. All for nothing. Except he was president for a little longer.

What Nixon did, he did because of his personal insecurity, and his desire to be "the man." He was paranoid and sick.

Bush does pretty much the same thing, I guess, but on a far grander scale. His theft of elections is much more elaborate, and his abuse of offices more grand. He lets himself be used.

But I don't remember Nixon having the disdain for human beings that Bush has. Nixon's dirty tricks were pretty juvenile, in a way. Bush's dirty tricks are more deadly, and his advisors are much more ruthless and sociopathic, deluded, really. I would almost rather try to win against a wahhabi fundamentalist than one of Bush's Christian Zionists. Not very hopeful, am I?

[grytpype]

26. And don't forget, Nixon was a Quaker.

Imagine if he were a Southern Baptist or some such... who would have survived? Cockroaches?

[HootieMcBoob]

8. It's far worse in my opinion...but

It's not seen by the media or the general population as being far worse. Which makes it even doubly worse. It just gets worse and worse! :puke:

[sandnsea]

9. So much worse

There's a Watergate a month, like the above poster said. And that's only the things that DO leak out. What's going on that we don't know about?

As to Vietnam, the wrongness of it is the same. But the grand scale of it isn't yet. I pray it never gets there.

And I don't think the media was ever as despondent as it is now.

[spooky3]

14. "despondent"? Not sure what you mean.

I'd say that the media has almost completely abdicated its role to be a watchdog of other powerful institutions and help the public understand when things go wrong.

[grytpype]

27. Bernstein is Bush's piss-boy now.

Sucks, don't it?

[sandnsea]

39. Not responding

Lacking initiative or drive. In a coma.

Maybe not the best choice of words, but they certainly behave as if they've got no ability to take action at all.

[ForrestGump]

10. Far worse

Both Johnson and Nixon had good attributes as far as the office of President was concerned. Bush Jr has no redeeming values at all. Even Nixon and his fellow crooks were a kinder, gentler bunch of psychopaths than the current bunch. And, yes, Watergate was nothing compared to what has become business-as-usual for the Bush junta.

[grytpype]

29. Nixon's goons were comical.

H.R. ("Bob") Haldeman:



A dead ringer for Douglas Nidermeier, "Bob" had Andy Card's job (Chief of Staff) in the Nixon White House. He was convicted of conspiracy and obstruction of justice.

G Gordon Liddy:



Rat-eating G. Gordon offered to die for Nixon.

Henry Kissinger:



Nobel laureate, had Condi Rice's job (can you imagine?) and negotated the Paris Peace accords, ending the war.

[grytpype]

32. More Nixon goons:

John Mitchell:



Had John Ashcroft's job. The only Attorney General to serve a
prison sentence. His wife, Martha, was reputed to be quite mad.

John Erlichman:



This Nixon aide authorized the break-in of Daniel Ellberg's
psychiatrist (lacking a USA PATRIOT Act). He was convicted of conspiracy and lying to a grand jury.

[Eloriel]

38. Martha was actually probably the sanest of the bunch

Well, except for my hero, John Dean. :-)

Eloriel

[grytpype]

40. Who's been writing anti-Bush legal opinions, by the way.

Interesting connection.

[poskonig]

11. We're in decent shape.

There is still time to get the international community involved in Iraq militarily and financially.

Time is running out; Iraq is a powderkeg waiting to explode.

[HootieMcBoob]

18. Krugman said

that there's been so much damage done by this administration that it will take years for the country to recover. And that's if Bush is a one term resident.

[grytpype]

31. And it's such an endorsement of democracy, isn't it?

If the people's choice, Al Gore, were President we wouldn't be in half the mess we are now. And I don't mean 9/11 wouldn't have happened. I mean the world would still be on our side, and we wouldn't be mired in Iraq. And the budget would still be balanced.

[lindashaw]

21. I don't think the international community will let...

itself become involved. Did you read what Jordan just said...sorry, but we would be in real trouble with the Arab world if we sent in any peacekeepers. We'll see after they have that donor's conference. That will tell us a lot.

[CHIMO]

13. It Is Up To History

Remember Watergate. The revelations upset people and created a common feeling of something that was wrong.

The media reflected this interest. Maybe because the lead was comming from one of them and they had to keep up?

Now it seems that people are expecting policticians to be politicians and no one is demanding anything better. It seems that there is no concept of what is fundamentally required to sustain a free society.

Laos and Nam started out as a principle that didn't cost much in the Cold war, but dragged on until it became unbearable. Would think that others would encourage the US to become bogged down so that the others can now become predominant.

It seems to me that OBL is the one in the drivers seat and he is setting the agenda. It might be that the agenda suits the other party as well.

My conclusion is that the response will determine whether this is worse than or not.

[Lindsay]

15. Worse.

Well, during Viet Nam we did have J. Edgar Hoover and his secret files...but Ashcroft is making him look like a rank amateur.

This is Big Business meets Big Brother, and it's the entire administration.

This is very, very bad.

[calimary]

16. Worse by far. I'm old enough to remember them both.

Compounded by the fact that back then, at least the media was willing to tell it like it was. They didn't sanitize anything for fear of being called unpatriotic. They didn't repeatedly look the other way as the storm clouds were gathering. They confronted it all. There were no Karl Rove spin-meisters and media manipulators then. In fact, the press was rather hard on Nixon. More like watchdogs than lapdogs. This time, it's been the other way around. Although I can't help but wonder if we're starting to see Humpty Dumpty starting to teeter...

[HootieMcBoob]

19. the 60s had its share of censorship

I remember the Smothers Brothers had a show and it was cancelled after they made derogatory references to the vietnam war. I'm not sure what they said or whether it was during lbj or nixon....i was just a kid at the time.

I also remember the weekly casualty numbers being announced on tv. It was a lot for middle america to take in as they were eating dinner and watching Cronkite. Remember that was the main source of news along with newspapers. Even today the print media is way out in front of the tv news.

<edit- spelling>

[prolesunited]

17. Worse

Because we no longer have an unbridled media serving as the Fourth Estate. There once was a time when the media served as a check on the government, calling attention to corruption, greed and abuse of power.

In its place, we have a corporate-controlled propaganda machine ready to do the bidding of its masters. The truth filters out on occasion and we have the Internet, but not in a sufficient concentration to affect the masses.

As we have seen, the media has the ability to shape public opinion through constant repitition in many markets. Look how many people think 9/11 and Iraq are connected.

It's not only the media consolidation it too few hands. It's also the big conglomerates, like NBC, with its ties to GE and ABC, with its ties to Disney. They are not going to do anything that would adversely effect their business interests.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. So where's "The Pentagon Papers", Woodward & Bernstien, etc....?

This all may be very well true but the moral compass of this nation, and more critically here- it's MEDIA is completely broken.
No one gives a flying fuck, apparently, except for a handful of activists around the country.

[CHIMO]

24. Get out The Vote

All sounds good about flying but get out the vote!

Go to old age homes and talk to them and get them to vote.

Go to the single parent groups that are looking for help and help them to get out and vote.

Surely you can think of more. You can't rely on the media to do your work, so go do it yourself.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Oh, yes.

Screwing up in the Middle East is like releasing a liquid fart while performing in Carnegie Hall.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

30. My Dad-70 years old-says it worse

He is a Korean War vet, his brothers served in 'Nam, and he absolutely HATED Nixon. He thinks this time in our history is worse because of the Media's complicity in protecting Bush. He is particularly upset about the kids coming home maimed from Iraq and Afghanistan.

I can barely remember Watergate-except that the hearings used to interfere with my after-school cartoon viewing.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Of course it's worse. But I have to laugh about someone

dating herself / himself about being seven years old when Nixon was re-elected by defeating McGovern. That was the second presidential election I voted in -- and I'm not old yet! ;-)

Nixon was a piker compared to the BFEE.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. I was 8 in '72

and wore a McGovern pin to school! I was even political back then. Jeez.

[quaker bill]

35. In some ways worse, some ways better

Watergate and narcissistic personality disorder aside, Nixon did a couple of good things (Clean Water Act, China ...)

Nothing of note from this admin.

On the other hand Nixon killed alot more people.

Protests were violent. Overt racism was more tolerated.

This admin lies more and with more impunity.

Tax cuts for the rich now. War surtax on the rich then.

WE have the internet now, organizing is much easier.

We are on to them sooner and gaining ground politically much faster.

If Bush were president before '68 - '69 that would be much more scary.

Nearly everybody believed what the pResident said on faith alone before Vietnam / Watergate broke. Now it's just the dittoheads. Not that there isn't plenty of them, but it seems easier to get them to question his motives now.

[Eloriel]

36. GOOD GOD YES -- MANY TiMES OVER.

MANY times over.

Actually, this particular war might be worse -- I'm not sure yet. Or, if you want to compare body counts, Vietnam was worse (so far).

But re Watergate. If the Watergate breakin occurred today, it wouldn't probably even get reported. If CERTAINLY wouldn't get investigated. And if it did, it likely wouldn't get prosecuted. And if prosecuted, no one would go to jail. It would be NOTHING today, nothing. Wouldn't go anywhere.

I can't even begin to explain to you all the many ways in which things today are worse.

Eloriel

[neebob]

41. Way worse

I was only 14 when Nixon resigned and my parents were Mormon, so I'm not like real confident in the accuracy of my memory, but did Vietnam or Watergate cause global disapproval and a massive jihad? I don't think so. Then you have to add what the grey men or whatever you want to call them have done in the last 30 years to create the current situation.

[grytpype]

42. kick

[laura888]

43. worse by far

watergate was much smaller scale. did not effect the daily lives of thousands around the globe