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[Name removed]

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[Craig Roberts]

1. heh

The situation in Iraq is not going to improve, it is only going to get worse. We haven't even heard from the Shiites or the Kurds yet.

The real question is what happens if the economy gets better. All of the Republicans are hoping the business cycle turns by next year and they can get credit for "curing" the economy with their tax cuts for the rich.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Iraq will only improve after the last American soldier leaves

This is highly unlikely as long as the PNAC crowd is in control.

[AP]

17. Nothing was more fucked up than Vietnam and in 72 Nixon made it look good

He made it look like it was improving, and that he was going to moderate, and he ended the draft.

McGovern hade made the war the only issue of the campaign (when there were others which were so much more critical, historically speaking, like the rapidly growing hegemony and the weakening economy which was screwing over the poor, working class, and middle class).

Once Nixon made things look godd in 'Nam, all the wind was out of McGovern's sales.

And I should also point out, Nixon should have been one the easiest incumbents to beat ever. But the Republicans had a great strategy, and the Democrats had a stupid strategy, as they did every year until '92. (Carter would have won with just about any strategy.)

[Tanketra]

18. The GOP had a great strategy ...

... insofar as basically fixing an election is a great strategy, yeah. Generally, I'd like to hold out for a strategy that doesn't get the campaign guys jailed.

[sandnsea]

3. fucked

Okay, I just had to do that because of the 'f' word thread! Sorry, my warped sense of humor!

[meisje]

4. so you would rather things did not improve?

n/t

[Sagan]

8. that's a bass-ackward way of looking at it..

Of course, I would LOVE things in Iraq to improve. Just as I would LOVE the economy to improve.

The problem with that is, they won't. They won't because the current Administration and their puppets in Congress are following policies that don't work, and we WARNED them they wouldn't work.

Take your battery out of your car. I tell you that it won't start without the battery. I'd be really really surprised and happy for you if it did, but it's exceedingly unlikely. And I told you not to take it out to begin with.

[Name removed]

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[saline]

5. If Iraq improves...

Which I think is a distinct possibility, if they get all the funding they're asking for then the Dems are still in great shape. Because the funding is fucking ridiculous. Huge percentages of senators across the aisle are asking how the hell we can spend 87 billion dollars on Iraq with the biggest defecit in history and almost no funding heading back to Americans.

We've said it before...

We'll say if again...

IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID(seriously he's a moron)!

[dfong63]

7. you said it

[cliss]

6. No need to worry

Let's assume that the Iraqis "get a grip on themselves" and quit bothering the US troops. Even if things were turning out just great; Iraqis accept the concept of "peace", American-style. Things will still be spinning out of control because of the financial implications. This will torpedo the US administration more than anything else.

Fact: the US is in the hole by $87 + $76 billion = $163 billion in Iraq. Next year = maybe the same amount, maybe more if there are unforeseen events.

Outcome = disaster

[Zero Gravitas]

10. It's the Economy, Stupid!

While activists like most DUers are concerned about the mess in Iraq, most voters aren't nearly as interested in foreign adventures as they are in paying their rent/mortgage, putting food on the table, paying medical bills and saving for their children's education. With the economy (which means JOBS to 95% of the population) as bad as it is, Iraq. no matter how bad it gets, will be issue number 2.

From a cold, calculating point of view I can only hope that they go through with their plan to "privatise" a half million federal jobs. Since some of those jobs will end up being exported to India or China or Russia or where-ever and with that scheme being just another way to funnel tax-payer dollars to corporate Bush campaign contributers, they will be showing where their true alliegence lies and will, assuming they are not in a position to steal the 2004 election, be kicked out of office on that issue alone.

[jburton]

11. Beyond repair

Too many 'average' folks getting a clue now about the lies.

$87+ billion cost another stinker.

And, he has a year to get those 3 million jobs back.

[JI7]

12. it's domestic economy that will matter

people wont care whether iraq is a mess or a democracy as much as they will care about the economic situation in america. especially if american economy continues to go down while iraq improves.

[Raenelle]

13. Remember, they don't actually have to improve things in Iraq

They only need to convince the American people that it's OK. They've already started this offensive.

[Porcupine]

14. Has the West Bank improved? How about Chechneya?

or Afghanistan? How about Kashmir or the Phillipines?

We should be absolutely clear. By keeping U.S. troops in Iraq we are giving the words Islamic extremists exactly what they want. A legitimate target, soldiers, situated in the midst of a muslim population.

Let's not forget that we have been killing their children for over ten years now. These folks have a legitimate beef with us and they know it. They have large numbers of unemployed, educated people like engineers and chemists. They have large numbers of kids under 25 with nothing productive to do and no hope of supporting a family.

We should pull out today. Yesterday would have been better.

[mistertrickster]

15. You are exactly right, Porcupine

Where's the democracy in the other countries we've invaded?

"Peace keeping" armies worked in Bosnia & Kosovo because they already had stable gov'ts and they just needed some persuasion to stop attacking each other.

What we did in Iraq and Afghanistan was to eliminate the existing gov't leaving a huge power vacuum that we cannot fill.

The British, interestingly enough, learned never to do that when they had their far flung Empire. They always ruled by co-opting the existing power structure. Even in WWII, MacArthur left the Hirohito, the Emperor of Japan on his throne. The Bushistas would call him a "terrorist" and drop a bomb on him.

Stupid and arrogant.

[GirlinContempt]

16. I figure

No matter what happens, the dems just need to point out the legality and actualities of the situation.

IN a perfect world, of course... heh