France cartoon honoring 9/11

[LastDemInIdaho]

http://www.lemonde.fr/dessins_du_jour/0,5987,57919-3208-2,00.html

I don't get it.

[hang a left]

1. well it has to have something to do with

Pinochet, and that looks like kissinger in the front there.

[opiate69]

6. click the link....

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16712
A Tale of Two Septembers

By David Morris, AlterNet
September 9, 2003

September 11th marks the second anniversary of the aerial attack by terrorists that killed 2,700 people and profoundly changed American society.


September 11th also marks the anniversary, in this case the thirtieth, of the aerial attack by terrorists that led to the murder of more than 3,000 people and profoundly changed Chilean society.


American commentators probably won't mention the 1973 attacks on Chile and their aftermath. They should, because in those attacks it was the U.S. government that played the role of Al Qaeda – recruiting, training, arming, financing and coordinating the terrorists.


Our involvement in this unsavory affair is now widely recognized. As Secretary of State Colin Powell himself recently acknowledged, "It is not a part of our country's history that we are proud of." (snip)

[Cha]

12. Now I see why kissinger should be tried for war crimes and

what job did freakin' bush want him for but he was too busy with
clients or he didn't want his clients to be named?

[Bossy Monkey]

19. I may be crazy as W, but I think it was heading up the 9/11 investigation

An old article indicated that it was to investigate the intelligence failures leading to 9/11, ie, how we're going to hang this on Clinton. I think he may have stood down rather than risk having to go to Europe and get arrested, but I dunno.

[opiate69]

22. from the article I posted..

"And in a most telling demonstration of continuity, President Bush appointed Henry Kissinger, the central player in the overthrow of the Chilean government, to chair the Committee investigating the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. (Kissinger withdrew in the face of ferocious worldwide criticism.)"

[TheBlob]

27. Why would David Morris lowball the 9/11/01 figures?

"September 11th marks the second anniversary of the aerial attack by terrorists that killed 2,700 people and profoundly changed American society."

In reality more than 3,000 people died that day.
Every article I've seen to date, when rounding off the death total, uses the number 3,000. But not here. It's always either "Nearly 3,000 people died in the WTC" or "Over 3,000 died that day." But suddenly here we get 2,700.

Now you wouldn't think that was anything to mention, until you get to the next sentence. The very next sentence the "more than 3,000 people" bit shows up:

"September 11th also marks the anniversary, in this case the thirtieth, of the aerial attack by terrorists that led to the murder of more than 3,000 people and profoundly changed Chilean society."

That little observation was screaming out at me so I had to bring it up.

[opiate69]

28. I was kind of wondering about that too...

On edit, my thoery wasn't even close...

[Sterling]

99. Do you have a source?

To my knowledge the death toll was below 3000. At one time they were estimating more than 3k but that # was lowered in the end after more people were accounted for.

[Sweetpea]

2. Was it supposed to be funny?

[Cha]

3. I didn't "get it" earlier, either but someone explained to me

that in 1973 Allende was overthrown on 9/11 and many People were killed in Chile and I believe it was kissinger who initiated it.

[CHIMO]

8. Tens

Of Thousands.

[Cha]

10. Poor things. And there was a movie I saw about that if I can

remember.."House Of Spirits".. I believe.

[LeftCoast]

43. House of the Spirits is an AMAZING book

Written by Salvadore Allende's daughter Isabel Allende. The backdrop for the book is the coup that overthrew her father. It's fictional, but gives a lot of insight into the history of the time...well worth a read. The movie...well, what can you say about a movie based on a book?

[OldEurope]

88. There are two women with the same name: Isabel Allende.

One is the daughter of Salvador Allende, and she is a famous politician in Chile now. Her cousin also is Isabel Allende and she is the author.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sz/meinungsseite/red-artikel1551/

[QC]

4. 9/11 is also the anniversary of the CIA coup that deposed

the elected Chilean government in 1973.

[Cha]

7. I think this Country has some really bad Karma to deal with for

that alone!

[hang a left]

16. and it is all the same characters alive and

well today causing all the havoc.

[Must_B_Free]

80. On Hawaii Five-0 tonight,

the story is about a navy officer who is killed by a package bomb on September 11.

[Cha]

5. And it's pretty right on target!

I didn't start paying attention to what this Country is up to until 2000!

[benddem]

9. We did about the same thing to them in Chile in 1973

[Blue-Jay]

11. Not to be "freepish", but

that is neither funny nor insightful.

[Cha]

13. It's not suppose to be "funny", but it is very "insightful".

[CHIMO]

14. Dead On

Especially if one is from that Country. Now where is it?

Truth is hard to take. Sometimes the only way to get a point across is in this type of presentation.

[LastDemInIdaho]

20. I'm sure the survivors of 9/11 victims will understand

After all I doubt many of them had anything to do with 1973 alleged CIA action. I'm sure they'll vote for whomever agrees with the approtiatness of this cartoon on this day too.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

24. Hey, Idaho

The cartoon was published in FRANCE, in FRENCH even. They're not involved in AMERICAN domestic politics. They're allowed to print it without having it vetted by an American audience.

Also, it has nothing whatever to do with survivors of the World Trade Center attack. However, France and its people were very generous to the United States after September 11, 2001.

Finally, the "action" in 1973 isn't in the category of "alleged". It happened, and the CIA and Kissinger were most assuredly complicit. Lots of people were murdered because of it, and tortured too. Whether you believe this or not doesn't have any bearing on the immutable truth, which is to say, it happened.

Now, I'm wondering what you're doing to reverentially commemorate the 35,000-45,000 innocent Iraqis we've slaughtered in this war. What are you doing to ensure that you're being sensitive to the way that they feel?

[LastDemInIdaho]

29. wondering what you're doing to reverentially commemorate the 35,000-45000

I'm sitting here bleeding profusly from my head where I have beat it with a long knife in mourning. Thanks for asking - what are you doing to reverentially commemorate the 35,000-45,000 innocent Iraqis we've slaughtered?

[coda]

39. "...1973 alleged CIA action." Nothing alleged about it.

That they were very involved is fact, spud.

[LastDemInIdaho]

48. Can you point me to the facts?

A congressional record or some official document that proves the US was involved will suffice. Would you be so kind as to point me to it?

Yes, we grow potatoe :-) in Idaho but we don't make freedom fries.

[GirlinContempt]

56. links

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol7/contents.htm

http://www.lakota.clara.net/news/ivgarces.htm

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/42a/130.html

http://www.foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp
(government link)

[coda]

57. I'm curious why you would post a cartoon, claim you don't get it

yet you certainly have knowledge of the '73 Chilean coup and that there are allegations that the US was involved. Fancy yourself a Master-Baiter?

All of your "alleged"'s and "proof"'s sound like the same "fair and balanced" reporting Chileans got from Pinochet's media.

See my post at the bottom. Helms certainly got authorization to thwart Allende's inauguration, 3 years before.

Tell you what, I'll just accept your thread starter and leave it at that.

You don't "get it".

[LastDemInIdaho]

59. I have learned much from this exchage

I was not aware that there were so many people that have passed judgment against the US without conclusive proof to their guilt.

It so far has been civil (except for stuff like Master-Baiter) and I hope it stays that way. I will listen and pursue all links to facts.

[0rganism]

67. Mainstream news reported this in 2000, during document declassification

Maybe you missed it? Wasn't exactly a shining moment for the CIA, but even they've had to admit some involvment at this point.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/chile000919.html

"The report also disclosed a CIA payment to Gen. Manuel Contreras Sepulveda, head of the Chilean secret police, whom it knew to be involved in post-Allende human rights abuses. In 1993, Contreras was sentenced to prison for a rare act of foreign-sponsored terrorism on American soil — the 1976 car-bomb killing of a Chilean diplomat and an American associate on Embassy Row in Washington."

How 'bout them apples? The CIA paying off an operative who later turns into a terrorist and conducts a deadly attack in America? Perish the thought! And they had prior knowledge that such an attack was likely? My goodness gracious!

Some freshly released details that the family of Charles Horman can now explore:
"Based on what we have, we are persuaded that:
— The GOC sought Horman and felt threatened enough to order his immediate execution. The GOC might have believed this American could be killed without negative fall-out from the USC.

There is some circumstantial evidence to suggest:
— U.S. intelligence may have played an unfortunate part in Horman’s death. At best, it was limited to providing or confirming information that helped motivate his murder by the GOC. At worst, U.S. intelligence was aware the GOC saw Horman in a rather serious light and U.S. officials did nothing to discourage the logical outcome of GOC paranoia."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/statedoc0002.html

[LastDemInIdaho]

70. Could you point me at a .GOV site that provides proof

that America is guilty of killing 30000+ people in Chile?

If the US did it then it's on record in congress. Do you understand how our government works? It's not by heresay on .org, .com or any other commercial or vanity site.

[regnaD kciN]

73. Too funny...

O.K. I'll try to find an official U.S. government website that admits we were behind the Chilean coup...as soon as you provide me a link to Osams's personal webpage where he admits to being behind the 9/11/01 attacks.

:crazy:

[0rganism]

78. "Do you understand how our government works?" HAHAHAHAHAHA

Do you trust our government to tell you the truth all the time?

Do you think everything the government does will be "on record in congress"? Hell, the GAO can't even get recent records of administration meetings with energy executives, what makes you think the CIA is going to be open with congress about its involvment in the Chilean coup? 28 pages of the 911 report are unavailable to the public, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Anyway, I see your objection boiling down to this one thing:

The US gov't hasn't published its complicity, ergo the allegations are unproven.

What a crock. Many of the incriminating CIA documents were only recently uncovered during the eleventh-hour-Clinton-era declassification action. People have been suing various parts of the Chilean and US gov'ts for decades over the desaparacidos and the stadium massacre, and only recently have they been able to view the CIA's side of the story.

Here's Peter Kornbluh's web collection of DECLASSIFIED U.S. GOVERNMENT (State dept, NSC, and CIA) DOCUMENTS concerning the Allende situation:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/latin_america/chile.htm

This is from the National Security Archive at George Washington University. Enjoy. Knock yourself out.

[mitchtv]

96. guilty as sin-

great chilean singer Victor Jara -murdered in the stadium after they broke his hands so he couldn't play guitar, when he waved is bloody hands to lead the crowd in song, thay machine gunned him in front of everyone. just one story.

[mitchtv]

92. orlando Letelier RIP

complete with miami cuban involvement

[oldcoot]

81. Yes

For documentary evidence, you may want to read the following article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/story/0,13755,1038615,00.html the coup. According to this article, recently declassified U.S. documents (including memos from the CIA) provide evidence of the U.S. role in the coup. I am sure that these documents will be available on-line in the future, if they are not available now. You also could visit the National Archives and Records Center if you really want to see these documents.

If you do not wish to take a trip to Washington D.C., you may want to consider the fact the United States is not denying its involvement in the coup. According to the link opiate69 provided for you, U.S. involvement in the coup is "now widely recognized."

Edit: I just found out that these documents are available on the Internet. If you wish to see these documents: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20001113/ . You also can visit: http://www.archives.gov/media_desk/press_releases/nr99-93.html to learn more.

[GirlinContempt]

49. Erm...

I'm sorry... but, actually I'm not...
What better way to show support for the victims of the US 9/11 attack than to speak out against a government that was at LEAST, in my opinion, partly responsible for the attack. What better way to respect the 1973 victims (who, though not American, were still human beings deserving of respect and the same degree of commemoration) than to make sure their suffering and loss is not forgotten, especially at such a time?

Kay, thanks.

[JNelson6563]

86. hoo boy

let's think about this. America didn't like Saddam. America has gone and obliterated Iraq and we're working hard to usurp their oil. We slaughtered lots and lots of Iraqis (no doubt many more will die) and I am sure the number exceeds the 3000.

So let's re-cap. We don't like the Iraq governemnt. We slaughter many innocents to eliminate the leaders.

Now let's think about the things America has done, and the the Allende thing is a fine example. Our government has done some wretched things. Some 3,000 Americans paid for those evil deeds with their lives. Our government is suppose to be representative of us. They see a renegade cowboy calling names and basically giving the world the finger. They see Wolfie and Rummy and Cheney too.

These guys are out to destroy the world for their own profit and they ARE the US in the minds of many.

What the terrorists did to us 2 years ago is a lot like what we have just done to Iraq. Think of the many thousands dead in Chile. Think of all the other nasty business we have had our hands in.

Those who died on 9/11 were innocent but unless we overthrow these fascists and start acting like a responsible nation then we will all be a little less able to claim that "innocent" status.

Julie

[Another Bill C.]

15. What goes around...

I don't think the cartoon honors 09/11. It's saying "what goes around, comes around." In 1973 a three-year CIA effort (ordered by Nixon) culminated with a coup that unseated Chile's democratically elected president, Dr. Salvador Allende and replaced him with a vicious dictator, Gen. Augusto Pinochet. Pinochet's death squads murdered thousand of Chileans until 1990.

There's a great deal of information at http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/latin_america/chile.htm

[hang a left]

17. actually I think it says US characters

responsible for 9/11/73 and 9/11/01

[Cha]

18. I guess nixon got his karma!

too bad kissinger is still working.

And now for bush to get his 9/11 karma.

[LastDemInIdaho]

21. What goes around?

So whatever America does to anyone involved with 9/11 is AOK?

The problem with "what goes around" is that it is never the beginning or end of a circle.

[CHIMO]

26. Eye

For an Eye and we will all be blind.
I didn't take the cartoon as a slight on the WTC attack. I saw it as a view of others outside the US as the way the US considers things. The only way to make your point that there are other viewpoints is becomming cruder and cruder. Don't know why this has come about.
I agree that it might be hard for someone that lost a person in the tragedy to take.
But things are not only as shrub & co make it.

[LastDemInIdaho]

31. t might be hard for someone that lost a person in the tragedy to take

But I doubt if any of them are members of shrub & co.

[CHIMO]

34. Well

How about the thirty to fourty thousand Chileans.

How are they to accept it.

Don't you think that they had mother's, father's, sons and daughters?

Where is your support for these people.


What makes you think that they don't have a heart wrenching pain when they see this cartoon?

What gives here?

[Djinn]

23. i think it's supposed to inform more than anything

The vast majority of people know nothing about the overthrow of democratically elected Allende - especially within the US

I think this cartoon gets to a feeling many people had post sept 11 - that when americans die the whole waorld stops - but does anyone even notice when terror occurs somewhere else?

In australia there was a big push for people to dim their lights on the anniversary yet not ONE person asked by a media survey group could name one member of the afghani "interim" govt - a country that we had personally been bombing for a year.

The fact that when you say "sept 11" everyone knows what you mean - does anyone know any significant dates in Afghnanistans political history? or Cambodia, Vietnam, Panama, Somalia, Serbia, Guatemala, Korea, Niguragua, Indonesia??

Yet these countries have al been bombed by the US since 1945? Many people who obviously felt horrified by the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon are dissapointed that once again it's seems to be only western lives that need to remebered, cried over or even known about in the first place.

[laura888]

83. well put...

In the U.S., we've become immune to violence occurring elsewhere in the world.

[friendofbenn]

25. 3000 americans are worth more than 3 million rwandans

n/t

[LastDemInIdaho]

32. What did the US do to 3 million rwandans?

And was it on 9/11?

[friendofbenn]

35. it never did anything to help them

and no one remembers them now. as chomsky said "its only black men killing each other"

[LastDemInIdaho]

37. Ok fine

How does that help generate the statement that 3000 americans are worth more than 3 million rwandans?

[friendofbenn]

38. its what the media would have you believe

its not your fault. i'm not blaming you

[BushHasGotToGo]

40. Clinton fucked up royally on this one

We need a true liberal like Dean.

[friendofbenn]

46. i think dean and clinton are very alike unfortunately

better the bush but only just. kucinich on the other hand......

[CHIMO]

41. Refused

To have the UN send help to prevent the situation.
That's right, the US did not want the UN to send help because it was not on their radar screen.

[baby_bear]

30. For an excellent mainstream (NYTimes) explanation, look here

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/opinion/11THU2.html

Editorial on 9/11/2003 in the NYTimes

<snip>
The Other Sept. 11
Death came from the skies. A building — a symbol of the nation — collapsed in flames in an act of terror that would lead to the deaths of 3,000 people. It was Sept. 11.

But the year was 1973, the building Chile's White House, La Moneda, and the event a coup staged by Gen. Augusto Pinochet. Now, after decades of silence, Chileans are protesting in the streets for the reversal of amnesty laws that block prosecutions for the killings after the coup. The face of Salvador Allende, the overthrown Socialist president, is everywhere, and now behind La Moneda is a new statue of him wrapped in the Chilean flag. Chile's president, Ricardo Lagos, is proposing a truth commission to look into reports of torture, special judges to find the disappeared, new pensions for victims' families and an amnesty program for former soldiers who tell where the bodies are buried.
...
In the United States, Sept. 11 will forever be a day to remember our victims of terrorism. Yet our nation's hands have not always been clean, and it is important to recall Chile's Sept. 11, too. "The Pinochet File," a new book by Peter Kornbluh, a researcher at the nonprofit National Security Archive, presents declassified documents showing that the Nixon administration, which had tried to block Mr. Allende's inauguration, began plotting to bring him down just 72 hours after he took office.

Mr. Allende, a Socialist but a democrat, had done nothing to Washington. President Nixon took his election as an affront — "it's too much the fashion to kick us around," he said — and he worried most that a successful Socialist would inspire others.

The United States did not directly participate in the coup, but it laid the groundwork for it and supported the plotters. Afterward, even as mass murder ensued, the Nixon administration secretly embraced Mr. Pinochet's regime.

Much has changed in 30 years in Chile. Today, a woman, Michelle Bachelet, is the respected defense minister, and she and the army's commander, Gen. Juan Emilio Cheyre, are modernizing and depoliticizing the military. General Cheyre has denounced past abuses and vowed they will never be repeated. The courts are trying more than 160 former military men, but retired officers feel betrayed. They still argue that they saved Chile from communism, and they say Chile needs reconciliation. That is code for enforced silence, for forgetting. But the lesson of Chile, Peru and Argentina is that reconciliation requires the opposite. Silence prevents a nation from coming to terms. Real reconciliation comes from what the guilty are trying to avoid: full information, reparations and justice.

</snip>

Shall we write/read next in mainstream media about the terrorist camps sponsored by the U.S./CIA that trained terrorists to be deployed in many countries including Iraq and even democracies, and perhaps more importantly Al Queda elements to fight against the UUSR in Afghanistan???

Or, in the Times' words, will there be enforced silence?

As Maureen Dowd noted, the Dept of Defense's "GWOT" (code for Global War on Terror) is the same as jihad to many other people.

s_m

[LastDemInIdaho]

45. Nixon administration secretly embraced Mr. Pinochet's regime

Has this "secret" been officially presented to the public? Is it now in the congressional record? Is it still officially a "secret"?

[CHIMO]

47. Ask

The Chileans.

[LastDemInIdaho]

51. Not good enough

Is asking for an official report that presents positive evidence that the US was resonsible for this atrosity too much? If an emotional accusation was all that is needed to convict someone in this society we would all be locked up.

Cite the proof please.

[GirlinContempt]

55. Try this

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol7/contents.htm

http://www.lakota.clara.net/news/ivgarces.htm

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/42a/130.html

http://www.foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp
(government link)


Good enough yet?

[LastDemInIdaho]

58. Thanks for the reports but it is not conclusive nor damning

http://www.foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp
(government link)

This report does no attempt to offer a final judgement on the political propriety, the morality, or even the effectiveness of American covert activity in Chile. Did the threat posed by an Allende presidency justify covert American involvement in Chile? Did it justify the specific and unusual attempt to foment a military coup to deny Allende the presidency? In 1970, the U.S. sought to foster a military coup in Chile to prevent Allende's accession to power; yet after 1970 the government -according to the testimony of its officials- did not engage in coup plotting. Was 1970 a mistake, an aberration? Or was the threat posed to the national security interests of the United States so grave that the government was remiss in not seeking his downfall directly during 1970-73? What responsibility does the United States bear for the cruelty and political suppression that have become the hallmark of the present regime in Chile?

On these questions Committee members may differ. So may American citizens. Yet the Committee's mandate is less to judge the past than to recommend for the future. Moving from past cases to future guidelines, what is important to note is that covert action has been perceived as middle ground between diplomatic representation and the overt use of military force. In the case of Chile, that middle ground may have been far too broad. Given the costs of covert action, it should be resorted to only to counter severe threats to the national security of the United States. It is far from clear that that was the case in Chile.

Interesting but no smoking gun.

[GirlinContempt]

60. Well of COURSE not

What did you expect? An internet report that says "Ok, guys, we really fucked that one up big time. Sorry about that, really sorry, we'll be more considerate next time. Jeeze, what were we THINKING"

You're being rediculous. No smoking gun? The admission and record of the deliberate assasination of political officials and the bombing of a country (by US definition, also a terrorist act) isn't a smoking gun? Because a government report says that "Well, we can't like, totally say what's moral or exactly what we did, ya know"

Try reading through the pages in the first link.

[LastDemInIdaho]

63. I read it all

There is no admission and record of the deliberate assasination of political officials in any official website. BTW, the only official website you posted is the FOIA site. Even I can create a .org site that shows that space aliens caused 9/11.

Do you really not understand that proof of guilt must be documented in an official record to convince those with an IQ above room temp? I don't mean to be difficult here but I will accept any official record you can provide that the US is guilty of murdering 30000+ people in Chile.

If you provide an official statement of US guilt I will concede.

[GirlinContempt]

66. Holy crap

Ok, first of all, there is NO WAY you had time between my posting and you're replying to read all of even the first page I posted, let alone all of them.

By your logic, the holocaust may not have 'happened'. I'm sorry I can't come up with a US site that admits total guilt in the Chile attacks. You do mean to be difficult. It happened, and the US government admited that they were involved. But, the US doesn't exactly have a squeaky-clean fess-up record, specially not that Ican access.

[LastDemInIdaho]

68. It doesn't have to be a US site

Just an OFFICIAL site that will stand behind the accusation with proof.

Yes, I did have time to read the FOIA site and the one you told me to look at. As I said I can't (and neither would any thinking person) take a .org or .com site on their word for something as important as who killed 30000+ people. There are too many agendas to feed with the ease of posting text on an unOFFICIAL site.

You say it happened and "the US government admited that they were involved" so why can't you post an OFFICIAL site that admits guilt or provides governmental proof that we helped kill 30000+ people?

No, .com, .org will not do. Any .GOV site will suffice.

[GirlinContempt]

69. Post number

67 is good, in my opinion

Right now it's bed time for me. But if you're still interested tomorrow I'll see what other links I can dig up for you. Sound peachy?

[LastDemInIdaho]

71. abcnews.com is not part of congressional record. sorry.

I gotta go too. I will accept ANY governmental proof that the US killed 30000+ people in Chile. I'll check in Friday.

Goodnight.

[fla nocount]

87. Oswald was just a really good shot

and a pinball wizard.....according to government documents.

[regnaD kciN]

76. The "holocaust"...??? No way!

Prove to me that the Nazis killed six million Jews. Just send me a link to an offical Nazi Party site where they admit to having implemented a "final solution." Just remember, though, it does have to be an official site of a Nazi Party.

No, news, anti-Nazi, and historical sites will not do. Any official Nazi site will suffice.

:eyes:

[U4ikLefty]

77. Oh wait, let me guess his response...

perhaps something with the fake-outrage like "oh boy, now you compare America to the Nazi Germany!!!"

It's like a bad movie, but I can't look away!!!

[GirlinContempt]

91. Holy god, what have I been thinking all my life.

Of course, no murder, genocide or violence can have occoured without a government or party claiming they did it.
You're so right.
The holocaust, that didn't happen. I mean, SURELY, if it really went down, the government facts would be ALL UP on the internet.
Where else would they be? We all know how great most governments are at admitting their mistakes and, you know, publishing them on the interweb.

I've been blind.

[regnaD kciN]

74. Translation:

"My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

:eyes:

[GirlinContempt]

94. Ala Jello Biafra: fuck facts.

Facts confuse patriotism and outrage.
Did you know that 90% of facts are rumored to cause re-evaluation of opinions?
Thats why it's better to hold the "Deny, refuse to think things through, and deny some more" tactic close to your heart.

[mitchtv]

90. the proof has been in the papers for 30 years

starting from the botched kidnap/ assination of Gen Rene Schneider by CIa sponsored terrorists in 71. Do your own research. When Itt and BoA were nationalized the nixon adminaistration sponsored a crippling truckers strike that destroyed the Chilean economy. ther is no doubt there is no question that it was done -IT is history.

[BonjourUSA]

82. "secretly embraced Pinochet's regime" !!!

It's too funny !!!!

This information isn't a scoop. Since the Pinochet's coup, we know that CIA was involved in it. But in Panama, Uruguay, Argentine, Salvador... Philipines, Indonesia... too.

Since 1945, the USA put in place almost all dictatorships in the name of "struggle against Communism". This foreign politic is the deepest root of the anti-americanism.

[ignatius]

97. I think we can add the Shah of Iran and

Musharraf in Pakistan to that list.

[mitchtv]

33. 9/11/73 Santiago de Chile Salvdore Allende, President of the oldest

democracy in Latinoamerica was overthrown in a bloody coup d'estat. kissnger/ Nixon thought the Chileans were irresponsible to elect a Marxist and so they did him in. Revised history says he committed suicide. I believe, there is debate on the subject

[friendofbenn]

36. was he a marxist?

he'd overthrown parlimentary democracy had he?

[regnaD kciN]

75. No...

Allende was democratically elected, which is more than a certain Chief Executive we all know can claim. It was especially grating to U.S. officials, whose constant Cold War mantra had been that no country would ever freely elect a communist as leader. Worse yet, Allende (despite the best efforts of the U.S. to generate opposition) was then re-elected, shortly before the coup that killed him and led to an oppressive right-wing dictatorship that lasted for decades.

[mitchtv]

89. Allende was a democratically elected Marxist.

he was in office 1 term only. he was the First democratically elected head of state in History. Gen Schneider was murdered because he said he would go along with the results of the election. The origional plan was kidnap it was botched ,he was murdered. There was never any doubt who was behind it, although ther was about a 20 year gap til the english language press picked up the story.luckily I can read some spanish

[LastDemInIdaho]

42. I believe, there is debate on the subject

From reading some of the venom above one would think that it was a fact carved in stone. I don't recall an official-on-the-record criminal sentence handed down by any controlling legal authority.

[CHIMO]

44. Your Debate

Spain handed down a sentence on someone.

Who is a controlling legal authority?

What facts are you talking about?

Nixon/Kissinger believes?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

50. Why won't Kissinger leave the country?

Go find out the answer to that question, then see if it's "official" enough for you.

Free hint: it has something to do with an international war crimes trial.

[LastDemInIdaho]

53. Why won't Kissinger leave the country?

Let me guess...there are no citizens in any country that won't come to America because their ass would be in a sling if they did due to conflicting jurisdictions and prejudice.

The new world order has not sunk in with me yet. Has it with you?

[coda]

52. Helms said Nixon gave him "the marshall's baton" to conduct

covert activities to stop Allende from being inaugurated in 1970.

That from someone who gave up very little in the way of information.


"It is not a part of our country's history that we are proud of."

-- Colin Powell

What, did we short Chile a couple of tubs of butter?

[LastDemInIdaho]

54. covert activities to stop Allende from being inaugurated in 1970

That's the proof that 30000+ people were murdered by America?

Is it ok if I ask for a little more proof?

[Clete]

61. So if Al Gore had been elected,

and the military staged a coup and let him commit suicide with a machine gun and forty bullets in the back, and someone like Rumsfeld suddenly showed up announcing he was now President, would you get it?

[GirlinContempt]

62. I think the only way

he's going to have enough proof is if we go dig up the bodies, find the cause of death ('hope'fully some evidence like bullets or shrapnel are still around) that we can then trace back to the united states in some way shape or form.

Even then, I suppose that wouldn't be enough proof, because it's possible that, you know, space monkeys planted it there.

[LastDemInIdaho]

64. No true

Just provide on single official document that states the US did what you say. That's it and I'll concede.

[Paschall]

79. Uh, you know no official US document will spell out...

...America's guilt in the Chile overthrow. Except a court decision. And, guess what, there've been no trials in the US over this history.

Try Spain, France, England, and Chile itself. Anywhere there are survivors of the victims and a legal system that admits the suit.

You could also try researching yourself. You might start with National Security Council Decision Memorandum 93.

<snip> On November 9, 1970, Henry Kissinger authored National Security
Council Decision Memorandum 93, which reviewed policy toward Chile
in the immediate wake of Salvador Allende's confirmation as president.
Various routine measures of economic harassment were proposed
(as per Nixon's instruction to "make the economy scream"),
with cutoffs in aid and investment. More significantly, Kissinger
advocated that "close relations" be maintained with
military leaders in neighboring countries, in order to facilitate
both the coordination of pressure against Chile and the incubation
of opposition within the country. In outline, this prefigures
the disclosures that have since been made about Operation "Condor,"
a secret collusion among military dictatorships across the hemisphere,
operated with the United States government's knowledge and indulgence. </snip>

http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/CaseAgainst2_Hitchens.html

[BonjourUSA]

84. We can use the word "leadership"

"... with the USA government's knowlege and indulgence"

Wouldn't the word "leadership" be better ?

[LastDemInIdaho]

65. Not if it came from a .org site

If I hosted a .org site that stated Ghandi masterminded 9/11 would you believe it? What if I forged the whois record to show that Abe Lincoln was the owner?

[coda]

72. I didn't say 30,000. I didn't say that we murdered them.

3,000 is the number that Chile media reports. That could easily translate to thousands more being tortured and terrorized.

Helms told the Senate he was given the "golden baton" by Nixon to thwart Chile's democracy. Chile's RW military dictatorship ended
democracy there.

I said that our involvement was a fact. It is. I don't know the level of that involement. Yet.

[mitchtv]

93. check out the story of General Rene Schneider

if you want proof. I was in Peru at the time.

[Isome]

85. I doubt anything will be enough proof.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/reports/chile/index.html#5

That is the CIA's website. It doesn't contain the documents released through the Freedom of Information Act, but their self-serving responses to frequently-asked-questions about Chile portend the sad truth of what was found in the documents that were eventually released.

"...as part of the US Government policy to try to influence events in Chile, the CIA undertook specific covert action projects in Chile. ...to discredit Marxist-leaning political leaders, especially Dr. Salvador Allende, and to strengthen and encourage their civilian and military opponents to prevent them from assuming power."

On 15 September President Nixon informed the DCI that an Allende regime in Chile would not be acceptable to the United States. He instructed the CIA to prevent Allende from coming to power or unseat him and authorized $10 million for this purpose.

On 18 December 1974 Pinochet was declared Supreme Leader of the nation.

During this period, CIA, in coordination with the Department of State, determined that no new or expanded covert action activities were to be carried out ...

How convenient that when our government got what they wanted (a rightwing government friendly to U.S. business interests), then the funding for their "intelligence gathering" on foreign nationals was suddenly suspended, pending further scrutiny. *sigh*

According to a previously released Memorandum of Conversation, Kissinger in June 1976 indicated to Pinochet that the US Government was sympathetic to his regime...

The scanned copies of the information released through FOIA can be found here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/index.html#docs

The report, “CIA Activities in Chile,” revealed for the first time that the head of the Chile’s feared secret police, DINA, was a paid CIA asset in 1975, and that CIA contacts continued with him long after he dispatched his agents to Washington D.C. to assassinate former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his 25-year old American associate, Ronni Karpen Moffitt.

“CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende,” the report states. “Many of Pinochet’s officers were involved in systematic and widespread human rights abuses....Some of these were contacts or agents of the CIA or US military.”

[Toucano]

102. May be a duplicate, sorry

But if you haven't seen this movie, please do.

http://www.thetrialsofhenrykissinger.com/trials.html

[Isome]

95. The bottom line is this:

Just as in a murder for hire, the one who pays the dough to have the deed done is just as guilty as the one who does the dirty deed.

Our government paid millions of dollars to overthrow Allende (again, a democratically-elected official in a sovereign nation) and he died during the process. That makes us responsible. Had we not paid them, they wouldn't have been able to secure the armament and support necessary to stage the coup.

[Isome]

98. I don't think this guy is coming back...

I don't think he's even a democrat.

[Sterling]

100. I don't even think right wingers are so obtuse as to not acknowledge

What happened in Chile. How embarrassing for the poster of this original message.

He gets offended by a cartoon he does not understand and then is too immature to admit he was uninformed on the subject matter.

I sometimes jump the gun on things but at least I am objective enough to learn something from others when I am mistaken.

This person has a lot of growing up to do. Hopefully they are young enough to have an excuse.

:eyes:

[Isome]

101. I see he's still not back... n/t