Sen. John Kerry's military record...

[sfecap]

Folks, there are some things that warrant legitimate criticism. Voting records, policy positions, investment choices, and the like. All of that is fair game when a person decides to run for the nomination.

Kerry has gotten his share of criticism here on all of those points.

But....going after his military record is completely, utterly, and positively wrong. John Kerry went to Viet Nam, served his country, had the courage to come back and take a position that was decidely unpopular at the time. What he did took guts. That cannot ever be taken away from him. He is a decorated veteran.

Agree or disagree with his positions, whatever. But to come here and attempt to smear him on this part of his life's history is small, mean and ugly.

For crissakes, let's not stoop to the rethug Cleland style attacks. It's disgusting, and adds nothing to the dialog here.

Knock it off. Please.

[barbaraann]

1. Every single Dem candidate has a better record than AWOL.

Not a single Dem DESERTED the military to campaign or got off the hook through DRUG USE.

[Terwilliger]

3. and the media doesn't care

and neither will the people you want to vote for you

[BurtWorm]

9. Two questions

a) how do you know that?

b) what's your *real* point?

[bearfartinthewoods]

62. one question...who is smearing?

some of us are asking questions...so that's smearing now?

i want to see you yell "stop smearing" at rive and see if that works.

sorry...this was supposed to be to the original poster.

[FredScuttle]

67. So lowering ourselves into the gutter with Rove is admirable?

Ratfucking Kerry ourselves before Rove & Co. get a chance is a legitimate course of action?

Thanks, but I disagree.

edit: spelling

[liberalnurse]

2. Excellent position sfecap.....

Anyone who would dare to attack such an honorable record is no better than the *shrub himself.....

We are only trying to select a presidential candidate and remember, Kerry is an honorable democrat who I will defend anyday.

[bearfartinthewoods]

63. select a candidate

yes...that's what we are trying to do. select the best candidate. the one who has the best shot at winning. to make such a choice, we need the facts....all of them....or we are setting ourselves up for a fall.

what is the freakin big deal???? if a man is wounded three times, there should be no freaking secret as to the nature of his wounds.

[edzontar]

4. Thanks for the SANITY

Dean is a great candidate.

So is Kerry.

Both are fine Americans.

Kerry served his country as well as his conscience.

Enough said.

Remember when the AWOL PUKEBOY attacked JOHN McCAIN's patriotism?

That stank.

Let's try to support all of our good candidates (ecept Liberman) until the outcome is decided .

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. yeah...it stunk but it also worked. shrub was nominated not mccain

why give them ammo

[deutsey]

5. It is unbelievable, isn't it?

Again, we see people more fired up about Kerry's noble war record while allowing Bush's questionable record to remain in the shadows.

I don't get why we're so eager to destroy our own.

[Terwilliger]

7. who are we talking to?

As I recall, right-of-center points of view aren't allowed here at DU, so just why would we criticize Bush when we all know all the arguments?

This board needs to be about vetting these potential candidates...if they cant stand up to our rancor and vitriol, they won't do shit against the BFEE and the right-wing media machine.

I see so many Democrats who aren't really willing to stand by their core values, then bitch, moan, and complain when somebody calls them on it

[sangh0]

10. *yawn*

.

[BurtWorm]

11. You mean they won't stand by YOUR core values.

You don't know what their core values are, do you?

[Brian Sweat]

17. Ding, Ding, Ding!

We have a winner!

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

30. yep

but I don't mewl about being attacked

[Patriot_Spear]

60. That's how he operates... get used to it.

Like ants at a picnic, you have to take the good with the bad.

[Terwilliger]

18. When I see their basic actions, yeah...I can reach on their core values

I can only hope that Kerry won't be too much of a crossover if he should get in office

[BurtWorm]

32. So you were talking about the *candidates* when you typed this:

"I see so many Democrats who aren't really willing to stand by their core values, then bitch, moan, and complain when somebody calls them on it"

I see. Forgive me for thinking you were talking about your fellow DUers. I don't know HOW I misread that.

[Terwilliger]

49. fellow DUers, Democrats, "liberals"

yep

Some folks, like Kucinich seem to want to keep themselves closely aligned with a left set of ideals (like any Democrat should) whereas SO many Democrats (here and in power) seem to need to dance on the fence as much as possible (oft times going way over the fence)

I think it's the Clinton syndrome "He won! He must have been right!" :freak:

[BurtWorm]

55. No, it's more of a realization that leftists aren't the only ones

in the party. If you want a far left party, go join one. Go start one. See how many line up to join with you. Go ahead!

[Patriot_Spear]

12. Wow- what is that?! The Nietzsche School of Politics?

If our candidates survive us trying to destroy them, then they're fit for public consumption? whew, that's as looney as it gets!

[Terwilliger]

15. so you plan to lose the 04 election and go "how did this happen?"

is that the culture of victimhood I see from the Democratic party?

[BurtWorm]

20. Ha! Terwilliger interested in "winning" the election!?

That's amazing! Welcome to the club.

:toast:

[Terwilliger]

25. yep, ever since I realized Dems didnt actually give a shit about my vote

and knowing that they're the only idiots between me and the REAL sick politicians, I'm not horribly inspired when you people sit around DU all day and bleat about how wonderful your candidates are and how there shouldn't be any criticism...oh NOOO! It's a Rove wet dream! :eyes:

[BurtWorm]

38. Personally, terwilliger, I have no problem with honest criticism

You have to have standards for what's honest though.

[Terwilliger]

44. true

but we cant regulate the people on this board...they'd all have to be paid and work 24/7 to filter everything AND decide whether or not they can restrict something AND figure out how not to show favortism, AND, AND, AND

If OrdinaryTa has a bugaboo about Kerry, I still think its better to wipe out the criticisms instead of waiting for TomDelay and his buddy Joe Scarborough to vet it in September 2004

[BurtWorm]

53. Yes, but if that bugaboo is shown to be based on air

and people keep airing the bugaboo because it's become part of their belief system and they won't take evidence against it for an answer, we're doing Scarborough/Rove/Hannity/Ailes' work for them too, aren't we?

I'm a tiny bit shocked by the amount of rigidity of thought on this board, so many people investing so much in sets of beliefs around their candidates. It would be lovely to see a lot more critical thinking and a lot less knee jerking. And I think you knee jerk, too, terwilliger. You're always ready to hop into a fray and kick at no matter whom with your negative Naderite energy. You've got an agenda. Why isn't to get at the truth through an open mind rather than by attacking, attacking, attacking in the name of your own rigidly set beliefs?

Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest.

[Brian Sweat]

34. Hey,

We Democrats should be glad that the communists, er, I mean Greens, are helping us vet our candidates. It's right charitable of them.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brian Sweat]

48. I'm a supermodel.

[Patriot_Spear]

23. Naw- I can just spot Bullshit when I see it...

Culture of victimhood? What kind of psycho-babble is that?

Running down your own candidates is stupid- simple enough for you?

[Terwilliger]

29. Lets say you like Kerry

you all sit around all day and regurgitate some peurile crap written in order to fawn all over some candidate, and you take that to the bank as the reason you'll win, win, win the next time. Then the media starts lighting into your candidate, the con pundits come after him with questionable service record, media sees him as not very leaderly, not able to address criticisms, or strongly downplay attacks by neocons and other criminals...Then Bush wins in a 50.1 to 49.9 race, and we have the same problem ALL OVER AGAIN. Then, you, as that person who was SO sure that your boy was just going to sail through, are looking to find some reason that your analysis failed so miserably

"How could this happen? What wen't wrong? I know...it was RALPH NADER!!! HE DID THIS TO ME!!!!!"

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[disgruntella]

36. this sounds familiar

"you all sit around all day and regurgitate some peurile crap written in order to fawn all over some candidate"

Replace "fawn all over" with "crap all over" and you've got a fine description of the current anti-Kerry threads.

No one on this board is naiive enough to think that the Dem candidates aren't going to be attacked. I just wonder why some posters keep doing us such grand FAVORS by bringing up the same BS about Kerry's service, elite background, etc. over and over and over again. I find it hard to believe it's all part of a generous effort to toughen up the Democrats.

[Terwilliger]

41. Im not talking about the originators, but a lot of people come through

and if it isn't a continual attack on Kerry's service record today, it will be an attack on John Edwards teeth next week...it's daily rain...its too little to get worked up over

[Patriot_Spear]

42. He's helping us out , really...

...Just like Nader did. Thanks GreenOP PArty!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

45. because you're responsible?

maybe that's it

[Patriot_Spear]

47. Right, and I'll bet you blame rape on the victim's clothes...

"She had it coming to her, did you see the way she was dressed"?

Blame the victim Teri? ...that's pretty lame.

[Terwilliger]

51. uhh...didnt I say something about victimhood?

[Patriot_Spear]

54. You're making my point for me again...

You have an agenda that is beyond dealing with the facts in a reasonble way- you'd be content with renaming the sun as the moon if it fit your expediant politics.

[disgruntella]

13. my "core values" as a Democrat

don't include baseless attacks and endless ranting about a candidate's military service.

[Terwilliger]

14. no, but you should be able to weather the bullshit

eh?

[disgruntella]

16. eh?

I reserve the right to CALL bullshit when I see it. It's really the only reason to post in GD anymore.

[Terwilliger]

22. good

then you shouldn't have any problem defending against it

[deutsey]

31. I'm talking to anyone who puts more goddam energy

into ripping apart Dems than they do on Bush.

If the shoe fits, choke on it.

[Terwilliger]

33. Who are you talking to?!?!?!?

If I sit and talk with you about how much Bush sucks, WHERE DOES THAT GET US??!?!?! I believe millions of us went into the street this year and last AND WE COULDNT EVEN GET THE FUCKING DEMOCRATS TO VOTE AGAINST THE WAR

[deutsey]

58. Who are you? Travis Bickle?

:evilgrin:

I'm talking about how the energy we have for tearing each other down should, in my opinion, be put into building up the candidate of our choice and/or tearing down Bush.

Debating the merits of Dem candidates is fine, and pointing out what areas you think make them a weak contender is valid. I don't know why so many here are fixated on smearing candidates, though. Rove's going to do that well enough all on his own.

But go do what you want. I'm too busy working, being a family man, and volunteering for my candidate to waste any more time on this.

[BurtWorm]

6. Thank you!!

That was a menschy thing to say.

[Patriot_Spear]

8. Well Said... n/t

n/t

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Noordam]

24. Anybody hitting Kerry needs to read this

From
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml



"But two weeks after he arrived in Vietnam, the swift boat mission changed -- and Kerry went from having one of the safest assignments in the escalating conflict to one of the most dangerous. Under the newly launched Operation SEALORD, swift boats were charged with patrolling the narrow waterways of the Mekong Delta to draw fire and smoke out the enemy. Cruising inlets and coves and canals, swift boats were especially vulnerable targets.

Originally designed to ferry oil workers to ocean rigs, swift boats offered flimsy protection. Because bullets could easily penetrate the hull, sailors hung flak jackets over the sides. The boat's loud engine invited ambushes. Speed was its saving grace -- but that wasn't always an option in narrow, heavily mined canals.

The swift boat crew typically consisted of a college-educated skipper, such as Kerry, and five blue-collar sailors averaging 19 years old. The most vulnerable sailor sat in the "tub" -- a squat nest that rose above the pilot house -- and operated a pair of .50-caliber machine guns. Another gunner was in the rear. Kerry's mission was to wait until hidden Viet Cong guerrillas started shooting, then order his men to return fire.

Unofficially, Operation SEALORD was dubbed ZWI, for "Zumwalt's Wild Idea." Navy Admiral Elmo "Bud" Zumwalt was frustrated that the coastal patrols had failed to stop the infiltration of arms via the Mekong "

These boats and crews had one of the worst jobs in Nam.

[Terwilliger]

35. I believe Patriot_Spear wants a new "source"

PS doesnt think the Globe is "reputable"

[Patriot_Spear]

43. The Globe has an agenda; just like you Teri...

...or did you really think we couldn't tell?

[Terwilliger]

46. who the hell is Teri?

My agenda is to bring your party to the left where it should be

BTW, PS, the above passage is very favorable to Kerry...is that part of their agenda too?

[Patriot_Spear]

50. That's my pet name for you- Teri...

Would you prefer another?

[Terwilliger]

52. just makes you look weird

[Patriot_Spear]

57. Teri calls me weird, now that's saying something!

n/t

[Bandit]

56. I'm curious about the guy in the white t-shirt

Not only was the white t-shirt unauthorized but so were the tigerstripes. Who is that guy? IMHO he would be special ops. They were the only ones really authorized to wear civilian clothing and that is what he is wearing. Tigerstripe fatigues were not issued by the US Government unless you were special ops.

[Bandit]

59. Still curious about man in white ~ anyone have any ideas?

He is most definitely out of uniform.

[OrdinaryTa]

68. Friendly Fire

As the article continues, Kerry's commanding officer admits that purple hearts were handed out thoughtlessly. The "injuries" often consisted of being hit by fragments from their own grenades.

"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts -- from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[retread]

27. The attacks on his military record sound Rovian to me.

*

[CMT]

28. I agree

Kerry's military record should be off limits.

[bearfartinthewoods]

64. tell that to rove...i'm sure he'll agree.....not

[Eloriel]

69. Yep, I agree. Off limits as soon as he

quits leaning on that war record like a crutch. Stops parading in front of other Vietnam Vets and aircrafit carriers, aping Bush's own maladroit and inappropriate militarism.

Saw an editorial once that said, with apt sarcasm, "Kerry, who has served as a Vietnam veteran for the last 30 years."

Yep. That about sums it up for me.

There's one more thing. If you're going to run on your war record, you've got to be sure that there aren't any, um, skeletons in that particular foot locker. There are in Kerry's case.

Eloriel

[cally]

40. Thanks for this post

I agree. Dems should not eat their own. I'm sick of the unfounded accusations. Let's go after our real enemies.

[ShaneGR]

65. THIS thread is an GOOD example of why IGNORE works

Every four posts are positive and then the disruptor comes back in saying something dumb... I get IGNORED for their comment.... four or five people tell him/her they are stupid..... I get IGNORED for the respone....

LOL

[bearfartinthewoods]

66. wouldn't it be peachy if that worked on rove?