Howard Zinn and the Dilemma of the Democratic Party.

[David Zephyr]

I read with great interest the challenging thread by DerekG about his loss of respect for former President Bill Clinton. It was brave of him to post it here.

I am a long time admirer of Howard Zinn. Anyone who has read Zinn’s brilliant works will be aware of Zinn's loathing of the two-party system and his reasoning for it.

And yet, here we are at the DemocraticUndergound.Com, huh? Certainly, not the DemocraticParty.Com, but nonetheless, a website that is filled with members and supporters of that Party.

And why is that?

Why am I even still a Democrat when I've been on the despised edge of the Party since I first became a street activist at 17 during the Viet Nam War?

Why did I spend so much energy defending Bill Clinton in the 1990’s when he clearly had a lot of faults? His Welfare “Reform” was a cruel and cynical political ploy that deserves all the ridicule it receives. Michael Moore’s “Bowling at Columbine” presented just how wicked this policy was. And yet, I kept defending Clinton.

I am supporting Howard Dean who doesn't support the Universal Healthcare that Kucinich and Braun do. Why's that?

It’s hard to explain, it may be impossible. Yet, maybe there’s a small lesson to be learned from the great Emma Goldman, who Zinn admired so much that he wrote a great play about her. However, the lesson does not come from Zinn's play about Emma, but rather from Emma herself.

In Emma's autobiography, she tells how she first came to political awareness and activism after the Haymarket Affair in 1886, which was about fighting for the eight-hour workday. One single issue for working people. Later, she found herself ridiculing the wasted efforts of the left in focusing on a single issue when a larger revolution was necessary. In her story, she relates that while she was in a city in the mid-west (I can't remember now) that an elderly worker spoke to her after she had given a speech pointing out to her that she was "young" and could wait for a greater revolution, but that he was "old" and so were many of his co-workers and that an extra hour or two to be home to rest, to sleep, to be with their families at his late stage in life meant a lot.

Emma, in great self-reflection, connected with what he had said and wrote that this man had made more sense to her than the anarchist that she had so admired.

Howard Zinn correctly points out that historically the two-party system has, I believe he used the word, drained the vigor and power out of workers who spend their energies in the electoral system. I know he is right...

And yet, I also know that the Civil Rights Act did allow African Americans and Latinos to eat in restaurants alongside whites, to stay in hotels with their families when they traveled on the roads at night, prohibited Mexican American children here from being kept out of public swimming pools where white kids played. History also teaches us that the 14th Amendment came throught the process of electoral politics and so much more.

I don't know where I stand between my acknowledgement of Zinn's factual and stark criticism of electoral politics and the two party system and my acknowledgement that some progress has come from it.

But I do know this: Any participation by me within the Democratic Party has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS be in pulling it to the Left, toward fighting for economic and social justice and will NEVER be to sit idly by and watch what is supposed to be the Party of the People be compromised by corporate interests at the expense of the people.

The Democratic Party must not be just the safety valve for social discontent after Republican Administrations have been excessive and "gone too far" in doing their bidding for corporate interests.

The Democratic Party must be the Party of a Rebellious People who scare the living shit out of Corporate Interests and their legal cheerleaders, the Republican Party.

[Terwilliger]

1. nicely said, David

I know there are good people who want the party moved back to where it should be. I wonder if it's enough.

[PBinOregon]

2. It Is Enough

We're here, we're ready, it's our time.

David's post is excellent. We've been yearning for leadership for a good long time now. Dean and Kucinich and Graham and the other candidates are actually offering it. And where I am, there are a good number of people stepping out, not waiting any longer.

It's time. Let's do this. Let's take our country back.

[David Zephyr]

7. Let's Take Our Country Back!

It's time indeed! :hi:

[David Zephyr]

6. Thanks Terwilliger! Let's Hope It Is Enough.

When I wrote that it was the"dilemma" of the Democratic Party, obviously it is also my great lifelong dilemma. I stick with the Party because we have made some great strides and yet I get so damned frustrated with the Party when it is pulled back from what it can be.

Your kind words mean a lot to me Terwilliger. Thank you.

[blm]

3. I'm with Dennis Kucinich...

I stay with the Democrats and pull like heck to the left. DK gets called a radical leftie, but, he really isn't. He believes in the political system and LOVES his Democratic party. He just believes strongly in working WITHIN the system to help every citizen you can. To give in to your ego and opt out leaves real disenfranchised people to fend for themselves.

[David Zephyr]

8. And Dennis Kucinich Has One Fighting Supporter In You, BLM.

Dennis is my Menace! I love the guy and hope he fights in every primary all the way to the Democratic Convention. His voice and message are too important.

Kucinich was hot in the New Mexico Debate. I was taken by how he kept saying to the American people that the events of 9/11 had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein.

[Clete]

4. Those are my sentiments too.

I also cannot wait anymore for a greater revolution. Things need to change now in the next decade or nothing will progress in another century.

[David Zephyr]

9. Change. Now.

You are so right. We may not even make it another century. Thanks. :hi:

[diplomats]

5. You defend Clinton with all his faults and support candidates

you may not be in 100 percent agreement with because you're a pragmatic liberal but still a fighter who will never lose his idealism and populist edge. I see no contradiction there!

[David Zephyr]

10. The Struggle Continues Doesn't It?

Thanks.

[JanMichael]

11. While I was far too young to remember the Vietnam Protest I feel...

...the same dichotomy when I play the American "Battle for the Middle of Nothing" political game.

I am a Far Left Democrat, and so long as this country is limited to a Two Party System I will remain one.

Much has been done but frankly the bar is LOW.

That's our job...Raise the bar!

And yes, they must fear us, for if they don't they will destroy us.

Nobody respects a weak opposition, period.

[Arianrhod]

12. "Nobody respects a weak opposition, period."

Which is why I admire people like Dean and Kucinich and Al Franken and Michael Moore, who are not afraid to throw the "neo"cons' tactics right back in their faces.

"The ideal of this army is not just to fight. It brings order, and protects people who cannot protect themselves. It founds cities and defends what is necessary for people to live their lives. It is not a mistake to use force in this way." -- I Ching, Hexagram 7: Legions

[David Zephyr]

13. "The Battle for the Middle of Nothing"

I think it was Jim Hightower who said that "the only thing in the middle of the road is yellow stripes and dead armadillos".

I agree that is our job, to raise the bar.

Thanks, JanMichael.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we do not "raise the bar" then it will come back and hit us in the back end like it did last November!

[western mass]

15. liberals of today = progressives of tomorrow

I take heat from Leftist friends who can't understand why I would waste my time with "liberal" politics. I tell them that a vibrant liberal culture only helps the spread of progressive ideas. People don't suddenly go from ignorent/apathetic to progressive because they decide to buy a copy of Workers of the World Weekly and -shazam!- they're transformed. It's a matter of evolution and osmosis and long-term exposure. The Dem Party is a vehicle for promoting progressive values, even if it usually seems to fall far short of pushing real progressive change. Build your progressive movements along side it.

I also tell them that dropping out of electoral politics now means that, in the unlikely event that their revolution comes, they'll be erecting their worker's paradise on nothing but black and smoking ruins.

[David Zephyr]

17. Keep Taking the Heat, Western Mass!

Nicely said: "People don't suddenly go from ignorent/apathetic to progressive because they decide to buy a copy of Workers of the World Weekly and -shazam!- they're transformed. It's a matter of evolution".

[Ardee]

16. Thank you, David

for a literate and pointed posting, one of the very best I have read at this site.

I,too, was politicized by both the war in Viet Nam and the protest movement here in the US, and pushed over the edge by the events at Kent State University that took the lives of four college kids by the hands of american military reservists. I too am a life long democrat who has fought both to stem the tide of rightward movement of that party and fought internally my support for the centrist Clinton.

Unlike you, however, I have departed that party in favor of registering Independant, only because I saw, again and again, how frustratingly useless it was to attempt to alter the stance of the current leadership despite the local grassroots leftward (moderate) leanings.I do hasten to congratulate you on your determination to stay the course.

We should understand the message you offer that small steps and less grandiose goals are the more effective way to change.

[David Zephyr]

18. You Are Welcome!

Ardee, I appreciate hearing from you and your experience within and without of the party.

The similarities today between the lies of the Johnson and Nixon Administrations about the War in Southeast Asia in the 1960's and 1970's and that of the Bush Administration's War in Iraq are just too many to even begin to document for this old guy. It is truly as if the general public just never seems to learn.

Ardee, I completely understand and respect your decision to be out of the party as I also respect those of the Green and Socialist Party who post here amongst us. I am not a Green Basher and from the first day here at the DU have stuck up for them and will continue to do so no matter how much it upsets some. And thank you very much for the kind words.

:hi:

[KoKo]

20. Ardee......haven't seen you in awhile.....good to hear you out here..

don't always know if it's DU'ers taking a break.....or those who have disappeared into the Lounge......but nice to see you post again....

[Ardee]

30. Hi KoKo and thanks for the kind words

Ive been lurking a bit more than usual, rare for a loudmouth like me I admit.....:silly:

This has become a rather dangerous neighborhood of late, what with all these gangs fighting for turf and trying to make their marks, the Deanies, Clarks, Kerries et al hanging around the corners attempting to bully the poor folks window shopping for the right candidate. Hell, just the other day I had someone try to steal my lunch money because I had the temerity to post something not entirely positive about one such gang.....

Anyhow, Ive been researching the candidates for the nomination,almost as if the DLC will actually allow a choice.....silly me,huh?

[KoKo]

19. David Well said......and I agree with so much of what you say......But....

to see a MASTER DEM at work.....please go to C-Span NOW....well est....if you are cst....you will have to wait........but please, please......check out Clinton's Speech on C-Span tonight........PLEASE!

Want to hear what you think......in light of your post.....and what you were trying to get across.

Watch it.....you won't be sorry...will give you thought.....to add to your reading of Zinn.....and then you can come back and present an opinion.......that will be something we will need to hear.... Peace!

[Starpass]

21. Change ......more than people know

We cry about the lousy two party system but it is far superior to nations wracked with multiple party systems...they truly mire down and produce no progress. They create horrible systems where the wealthy totally abuse the citizens (ours seems mild in comparison). It's brought about a great deal of change. We would still be in the sweat shops and our young children beside us and being nothing more than animals working for pennies and then paying those pennies back to the boss to live in the housing he owns. That's why I shun the "let's do something radical NOW". I want first to remove George Bush and his unholy minions. Then I want to remove the repukes from their majority hold on our Congress. Then I want the states to start removing repuke control of their governor's offices and legislatures. It's a long process. I know the fastest way to get nowhere on that list is to give the people a candidate that will turn them off. I can say I fought the good fight for that candidate, but the nation is still stuck and going down even deeper into republican hell. The media will not let a revolution happen any more so we need to chip away at our prison cell if we are ever going to get out.

[ulysses]

22. erm...

They create horrible systems where the wealthy totally abuse the citizens (ours seems mild in comparison).

Not really.

We would still be in the sweat shops and our young children beside us and being nothing more than animals working for pennies and then paying those pennies back to the boss to live in the housing he owns.

But for the two-party system? No. The blood and sweat and tears of the people - "radical" people - were what brought those things to the point at which they were codified in the law. They weren't altruistic gifts from the politicos of either party.

[David Zephyr]

25. Yes.

You are right here, Ulysses. I wouldn't dare argue with you because I'd be wrong.

But, with the "Republican/Global Oligopoly Party" now controling the Executive Branch, both the House and the Senate, and having stacked the courts, this upcoming election will really be it.

We are really stuck with this horse (or donkey) this time and it's going to take close to a miracle to defeat the Bush machine empowered with $750 Million to purchase the election.

In fact, I have my own reasons to believe that the Bush crowd will once again take the White House by nefarious means.

Anyone but Bush? Yes.

[ulysses]

34. that may well be

My only point is that the fact that we've painted ourselves into this ABB corner - and while I'm not particularly planning to do anything except vote Dem in 2004, I'm not ABB myself - isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the two-party structure.

[David Zephyr]

24. Chipping Away at Our Prison Cell, Starpass.

I like that: "chip away at our prison cell if we are ever going to get out."

I agree with most of what you post, but I would like to see a parlimenatry system here in the U.S. with coalition building and am hoping that here in California that we can change the state constitution in my lifetime to acheive this.

I could never credit the two party system for eliminating child labor and such in the U.S., but rather I give the real credit to the fear inside the parties of a mightily angry and radical populace and I credit the radicals in the old Knights of Labor, the Industrial Workers of the World and a host of progressive martyrs who pushed the Democratic Party to once in a while do the right thing.

And it was radicals that pushed the Republican Party to do the right thing on the issue of slavery. Radicals like John Brown and my hero, Frederick Douglas, who were relentless because Republicans didn't want to upset the applecart.

Still, I agree with you, Starpass, that 2004 will be for all the marbles. I have little doubt in my mind that the upcoming election just may be the last chance that we may have to slow the nation's slide into a corporate/fascist state.

I think that this is why we see Michael Moore who supported Nader now praising General Wesley Clark and even Ralph Nader himself urging Democrats to support Dennis Kucinich. It's that serious.

That's why I will once again, as I have all these many years, give it my all for the Democratic Party.

The Party of 2003 is a hell of a lot better than the Party of 2002. That's a start.

I'm chipping away, Starpass. Pass the chisel.

[Arianrhod]

27. I disagree

> "They create horrible systems where the wealthy totally abuse the citizens"

Not in Central Europe. Major European governments are forced to compromise between the parties, because they form coalitions instead of imposing the winner-take-all "victory" characteristic of the States. After the 2000 debacle, many progressives were questioning the rationality of this aspect of the electoral college--a valid question to ask, IMO. Germany has such a strong economy (despite its high unemployment rate, which is mitigated by its social support infrastructure paid for by the rich) that it now poses a threat to *'s thirst for world domination, according to the National Security Posture he signed. The people are secure in the knowledge that they will always eat and have a place to live. And Europe has a better recent record than we do of according the populace such rights as free speech. I doubt very much that the French and German and Italian middle class, driving their Peugeots and BMWs and Fiats while openly criticizing their leaders, feel particularly oppressed at the moment.

> "We would still be in the sweat shops and our young children beside us and being nothing more than animals working for pennies and then paying those pennies back to the boss to live in the housing he owns."

The Parties had nothing really to do with this. Rather, it was the "fringe" element, the radical progressives--factory workers, craftsmen, farmers--who forced the government to recognize the inhumanity of those systems and to replace them with the ones we have today. Many men and women died under government volleys in order to achieve this. But they didn't do so because they believed in a two-Party system; they did it because they believed that human beings were more than what the government and its corporate partners believed us to be, what they forced us to be. These changes didn't come about at the ballot box, but due to the stalwart courage of the human spirit facing down the muzzle of a rifle.

[David Zephyr]

28. Welcome to the DU, Arianrhod

And I think you have seen that I also believe in a parlimentary system here in the U.S. There is great talk of it beginning here in California by changing our state constitution. This alone would be a very big step and I would hope to see this small step in my lifetime.

:hi:

[Arianrhod]

29. Parliament? Really? Cool.

I'm a native Los Angelean myself, although I've been out of the state for a long time now (got moved when I was in the military and haven't made it back yet). I get very excited when I read about some of the progressive things California is doing, and hope that when I'm ready to retire there in a few years the state will be the greatest Democratic stronghold in the Union. First step is to keep the Republicans from recalling all of our duly elected officials, of course. :mad:

Thanks for the welcome. :)

[JasonBerry]

23. WELL SAID, David!! N/T

~

[David Zephyr]

26. Thanks, JasonBerry.

n/t

[bpilgrim]

31. When the PEOPLE LEAD the 'leaders' WILL Follow.

well said david, thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[David Zephyr]

37. Hey BPiligrim!

And thank you, you radical you! :hi: :toast:

[buddhamama]

32. well said,David

very well said!
i love coming to DU and being inspired. :-)

The Democratic party is Our's- The People's.

There's a whole lot more to polictics than standing in a voting booth. We need to make our voices heard. We'll upset and offend but, never should we be silent. Never. If the people lead the party will follow.

[David Zephyr]

38. Us Silent? Never!

Hey baby! :hi:

[Q]

33. It's great to see that LIBERALS are still alive and well...

...and surving within the cowed Democratic party.

- I often wonder why I'm still a Dem...especially after the last three years of them giving Bush* nearly everything the Neocons have always wanted.

- Too many Democrats in leadership roles are beholden to corporate interests. The result is that the party allows Bush* to get away with his tax cuts for the rich and obstruction of investigations into Enron and 9-11 because it benefits the corporations who contribute to their campaigns.

[Mairead]

35. Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant

Very nice post, David!

But, as do others, I disagree on your assessment of multi-party systems. With multiple parties and proportional representation, any single party knows that they have to account for minority views--they can't have it all their own way. Whereas in a winner-take-all system, they don't. Unless the disaffected are willing to follow a scorched-earth policy.

I'd also like to disagree a little about the idea of progress. As in psychotherapy, too often 'making progress' is a lie we tell ourselves so that we needn't do the work. And the politician (or therapist, as it might be) colludes with our delusion because that way we keep on paying...and they get to enjoy a nice life even though we don't.

I believe we can very clearly see that process at work at DU.

[David Zephyr]

39. Desolation as "Peace"

You might be right about multi-party systems and I could be wrong...we just don't know. That's why I mention I hope to see it established here in California in my lifetime.

I had a conversation one evening with Jery Brown about this in 1992 and he, at that time, supported a parlimentary government which surprized me when he said so. I don't know if he still feels the same way 12 years later, but I had told him the same thing back then that California would be a great testing ground.

I must say that the current field of candidates collectively looks pretty good.

I know you already know how I feel, but it bears repeating: Dennis Kucinich is terrific!

[WilliamPitt]

36. Brilliantly stated

Thank you for this.

[David Zephyr]

40. It Reveals My Great Level of Self Doubt and Indecision.

I get so mad at the Party and yet, here I am and here I will be.

Thanks William. Your Speech about PNAC and September 11th to the New York City Symposium was inspiring. You are a brave fellow, articulate as all hell, and I'm sure glad we have you on our side! :hi:

And if any DU'ers missed it, click here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=335593