A Huge Warning for Clark Supporters

[Yavin4]

Don't think for a second that Clark's military history will protect him from attacks of being "unpatriotic" by the GOP propaganda machine, or that being from the South will also protect him. Look at what the propaganda machine did to Max Cleland. A native son of GA, who lost three limbs on the battlefield, and they called him unpatriotic all because he wanted federal workers for the Dept. of Homeland Security to have some job protection. Also, George McGovern was a real-life WWII war hero who saved American lives, but the media, to this day, paint him as a wimp.

I'm glad that Clark is in the race, and his voice will be a strong one against Bush. However, he's no more of a sure-fire win as Dean, Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, Gephardt are. He's just as vulnerable as any other Democrat will be.

Additionally, he's not a true politician, and that will hurt him. The way to defeat the Republicans is to be able to withstand their attacks, keep your poise, and fight back just as hard. To do that takes tremendous political skill and self-discipline. Think Clinton during the impeachment nonsense. Very few people on this planet could have survived such an attack. I would have beaten the sh1t out of Henry Hyde and Newt Gingrich.

I admire Clark, but I think that he's extremely vulnerable.

[LearnedHand]

1. Is Clark actually in?

Did he announce?

[xray s]

2. Why Max lost

Max Cleland is a decent guy and I believe he actually thought no one would pay attention to the bullsh*t charges the reptiles tried to paste him with. So...he ignored them, and didn't fight back HARD.

I do not think any Democrat will ever make that mistake again, especially Clark.

[Yavin4]

4. It's Not Just About Fighting Back

You also have to maintain your composure and still function while doing it. Gray Davis is going through hell right now, but you see what he's doing. He's keeping his composure and now he's mounting his attack.

Do not underestimate this skill. Very people have this skill, and even fewer have it outside of politics.

[Hamlette]

18. few outside of politics?

I disagree. It's a jungle out there and I have met hundreds of people who can fight back while maintaining their composure. None of them are in politics.

I do agree that Clark will not get a pass. But my guess is he does have the fight.

[newsguyatl]

5. well, that

AND the 2002 election was stolen in georgia... he most likely didn't lose. neither did gov. barnes.... but i digress

[Eloriel]

7. Ya got that right

But then you knew that.

Hi, Newsguy!

:hi:

Eloriel

[eridani]

17. Yes, and here's how

http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_25_03/Concerns_Over/concerns_over.html

Georgia is perhaps "hardest hit by the growing Diebold scandal," said Bev Harris, author of Black Box Voting: Ballot-Tampering in the 21st Century. On election night 2002, 67 memory cards with thousands of votes went missing in Fulton County, Harris reports. The loss of memory cards is comparable to lost ballot boxes.

Right before the election in Georgia, an unexamined program 'patch' was hastily installed on the 22,000 Diebold voting machines across the state. A patch inserts a 'program fix' into the existing code.

One of the folders found on the Diebold ftp site was one named 'rob-georgia.' This folder contained patch files that instructed the computer to replace the existing GEMS program with another. AFP has confirmed that the Diebold code used in Georgia was not inspected prior to the 2002 election.

[rasputin1952]

41. I am convinced that Max won that election...

and no one can tell me differently. The GOP machine will do anything to win, they have no shame, and they will not change until they realize how hyocritical they are. That will happen whem monkeys fly out of my ass, and I see no future in that either.

[Jackpine Radical]

37. I think Max may have "lost" because of

electronic voting machines. That supposed last-minute surge was jsut too convenient.

[rasputin1952]

42. BINGO!...

Max was far enough ahead in the polls to be re-elected quite easily...but those non verifiable electronic voting machings showed us what was coming.

[Capn Sunshine]

51. I'm sorry..Max was ROBBED

IMO his was the first election where the voting machines were used against a candidate.

Can't help but think it was a Diebold dry run for national program rollout 2004.

[Terwilliger]

3. you mean invulnerable?

[Democat]

6. Attacking Clark will be seen by some as unpatriotic/offensive

Your theory that there is no difference is wrong. He may very well be less vulnerable than the other candidates.

He is going to be attacked by right wing partisans, everyone is. The difference is that right wingers attacking him will likely turn off a lot more moderate/independent voters than when they attack Dean or some other party Democrat.

You cannot attack Clark without, by association, attacking the U.S. military.

Even Kerry doesn't have that shield, because he is a longtime Democrat first, a veteran second. Clark is first and foremost a military man. Right wingers will attack him at their own peril.

[Yavin4]

9. Explain Max Cleland

Why did the unpatriotic charges work against him? Here's a man with physical proof of his patriotism, but yet they convince voters that he was unpatriotic.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Cleland Was Not a General

I also believe that certain less enlightened folks were turned off by Cleland's wartime injuries.

DTH

[Democat]

13. Cleland was a Democratic Senator

Clark does not come to the race with a history as a Democrat, he comes as an American general.

[rasputin1952]

46. It worked in the same way that the "charges"...

of mass murder, was being used against Bob Kerrey. Here is a man who lost a leg, was awarded a Silver Star, and the MOH for actions in Vietnam. Yet, he was attacked by the RW because he allegedly 'with deliberate intention', fire into civilians witht he express purpose of killing them, and ordering his men to do so as well.

Yeah, right. A midnight firefight, on a moonless night, a small SEAL team and NVA or VC firing at you! The only targets you have are muzzle flashes, and there may well be civilians in the line of fire, (this was a tactic used often, the notion was that it would be difficult for American troops to fire through a civilian 'shield').

Even after this sory was completely de-bunked, it lived on. Kerrey, being the man he is, told the truth, and quietly left politics. The fear theb RWer's had for Kerrey is evident; he wasn't even a candidate, and they realized that his records in the military, as Gov of NE and as a Sen from NE, would crush bush in an instant.

Max lost both legs and an arm trying to pick up a grenade he thought he had dropped while disembarking from a chopper; unfortunately, it had been tossed at the chopper after being armed. Max is a good man, and knows what can happen to those in combat. In the mean time, the bastards in the admin are trying to cut back on VA benefits; is there any irony in this, or is it just a mere tragedy?

Tar and feathers for these bastards is not enough, they need to be banished to a small island that has the quality of being beaten by huge storms on a regualr basis.

[jason4291]

8. Main Breaking Point

General Clark has one primary flaw. He stated the United States was founded on the premise of Progressive Taxation (in an interview with Tim Russert). This is clearly false, and dangerous.
Progressive Taxation was actually an integral component of Marx's Communist Manifesto. Does the Democratic Party wish to nominate someone who is incapable of articulating a platform without sounding like a socialist? The Democrats need someone like JFK (He was strong on defense and actually cut taxes.) the party now seems to be run by Socialists instead of Democrats, while the Republicans are spending like drunken sailors (Medicare Prescription Drugs is almost like LBJ's Great Society, but more expensive.) instead of fiscal conservatives. In a nutshell, modern Democrats are turning into Socialists and Republicans are morphing into the old Democrats. We need to learn from the Great Democrats of the past before we scare away mainstream America.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Nice First Post

:eyes:

BTW, the only people I've ever heard who dwell on the "progressive taxation" bit are people who are not friends of ours.

Also BTW, compared to England's taxation without representation, young America had a much more progressive tax system than England.

DTH

[jason4291]

15. Listen to all sides!

Yes, the progressive taxation bit is stated by many conservatives, but we need to listen to the opposition and learn from it. It is a valid concern that need to addressed rationally. I think liberals and moderates need to learn to speak without so much emotion. This keeps a lot of people away from our side. Say what you will about conservative talk radio, but those guys are able to articulate much better than most liberals. (Think Shiela Jackson Lee versus Neal Boortz). Personally, Lieberman is the most mature sounding Democrat in this race.

Just my opinion though:-)

[IranianDemocrat]

16. Are you nuts?

Lieberman is a almost as conservative as bush on many issues. We are supposed to be an OPPOSITION party, not agree with the republicans on so many issues.

[janx]

22. Sorry, Jason, but I don't find conservative radio talk show hosts

to be articulate at all, let alone rational. Limbaugh gets so worked up at times that his voice actually squeaks. He makes a living by dividing and scaring people. "These people," "libruls," etc.

It's raw emotion; nothing more.

[kayleybeth]

23. I do listen to all sides

I lurk over at that OTHER board on a regular basis. What you have put forth here:

Progressive taxation = Marxism
Democrats = Socialists
Medicare drug benefit = fiscally irresponsible
Liberals = emotional and inarticulate
Lieberman = the only half-way decent Dem. candidate

These are recurring themes on that other board. Sure you're in the right place?

[Trajan]

34. Circa 1776 ...

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....{As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to} 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'"
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations

[TacticalPeek]

48. Head of Nail? Meet Face of Hammer.

Now, recover that petard. We'll need it again.



:kick:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. clap clap clap clap

excellent work Trajan :)

[Evanstondem]

12. Progressive Taxation is a Flaw?

Are you complaining about the term Progressive Taxation or about the concept? If the former, I think you are making too much of Clark's use of the term? If the latter, what DO you favor? A flat tax? Or the Bush plan of regressive taxation?

[jason4291]

19. Please re-read my Comment

Before everyone wants to start getting paranoid, please re-read my comments.
I stated that Mr. Clark made a mistake when he said this country was FOUNDED on Progressive Taxation. This is a false statement. Actually we were not founded with an income tax system at all. The Constitution was actually amended at a later date to allow for an income tax.
Mr. Clark's misstatement could be construed as a Socialist/Marxist comment. This is clearly not what this country or the Democratic Party needs in a Presidential Candidate.
Personally, I think the Progressive Income Tax system is fair. I think it is completely reasonable for those who make more, to contribute more in taxes.
However, I also think that many of us Democrats begin freaking mainstream America out when comments like this are made. Remember, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."? WE CANNOT SOUND LIKE THIS IF WE ARE TO REGAIN CONTROL OF THE CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE.
It is my opinion that our party needs to be proud of our country. Patriotic in our way of life. Proud of those who achieve. And strong in our belief that our way of life (FREE) is a god given gift. Remember FDR? He was a progressive and he was damn proud of our military, strong in his convictions and boastful of his belief in the American Dream.

Just my Opinion:-)

[Evanstondem]

20. I understood it the first time

I agree that Clark's statement sounds dubious, although he could be referring to methods of taxation other than the income tax. However, I think that leaping from this statement to Socialism/Marxism is an overreaction.

[graham67]

36. He misspoke.

It's really just that simple. His son said as much on Kos' blog.

[Pepperbelly]

57. not so much as you might think ...

if you read what Jefferson wrote about the subject, mistake is not the word I would use at all. Perhaps he is merely a good Jeffersonian Democrat.

[tameszu]

25. Yep

Marx supported a heavily graduated/progressive income tax.

But guess what, so did Thomas Jefferson:

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."

--Thomas Jefferson (letter to Madison, 1785)

Indeed, if you read the entirety of Jefferson's letter to Madison, he sounds a lot like an

"We are all the more reconciled to the tax on importation, because it falls exclusively on the rich...In fact, the poor man in this country who uses nothing but what is made within his own farm or family, or within the United States, pays not a farthing of tax to the general government...the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone..."

--Thomas Jefferson (letter to Gen. Kosciusko, 1811)

The fact is that an income tax wasn't thought to be necessary at the time of the founding because the federal government just wasn't that large. But if you asked the founders what kind of tax structure they would have preferred, I am almost certain that they would have preferred a progressive structure, as would any reasonable person since Aristotle who was concerned with inequality.

[xray s]

30. Thanks for the facts tameszu

That is exactly the kind of information Democrats have to start hammering home, instead of whimpering in the corner, afraid big bad Rush may call us "socialists" or "communists"

HA!

A Du'er once posted that Republicans have the bizarre plan to replace the economic system that defeated communism (FDR's New Deal, based on the social well being of all citizens) with the economic system that spawned communism (unfettered, naked, raw, social darwinistic capitalism). That kind of explains it all.

[xray s]

28. Oh...quoting scriptures 'eh?

And you though it was communists that came up with the idea of from each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. (Acts 2:44-45)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. (Acts 3:32)

[jab105]

31. LOL...

This argument is so obvious (good try with the whole "we democrats" bit though) because on a local political website that I go to...most of the people are completely obsessed that Clark DARE say that...it's mainly symantics(SP?) and at most a slight mis-speak in a live discussion.... as many of you have so eloquently pointed out...

Anyways, I believe this is where all the right-wingers are getting this from:

http://207.36.16.170/article.php?id=999

I doubt that many people who where listening to the interview would even have caught the "error" since we are and have been for a long long time a nation with a progressive tax system (I hope this doesn't make me sound too ignorant, if it does......well, I'm a lot more informed than a lot of other people --not on here but overall)...

anyways...thanks so much for your strong answers, I think I'll use them on the other board that I go to...well said!

PS-Where did you get those Jefferson quotes from....I know that Thom Hartmann is working on a book about his writings, but I'd be interested to read more about him...

[JasonBerry]

14. From One Jason to Another

Good luck peddling that kind of stuff here at DU. Most of us are progressive people who hold the progressive income tax structure sacred. Sure you're at the right place??? This is.....

[ThoughtCriminal]

26. Falwed? Compared to what?

Regressive taxation?

[not systems]

29. mainstream America

The "mainstream" don't think the rich paying more
is "communist" they think fair burden sharing by
the people who have benefited the most from our
countries great wealth and resources.

It may or may not have been founded on this idea
but the New Deal made it the law of the land.

Back in the 1950s when every one was worried
about the Red Menace not many confused progressive
taxes at levels unheard of today with communism.
Unfortunately I can't say the same about you and other
listeners of rightwing radio today. For your sake I
hope you are rich, real rich otherwise you are being
a total dupe.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Thought It Was Theodore Roosevelt

a Republican who argued for a progressive income tax in America not Karl Marx....

My bad...

[Terwilliger]

43. oh, give me a damn break

please extricate yourself from the bullshit IV!

[Terwilliger]

44. this sucker has been stoned

and not smokily

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. Good

I had a feeling that that would turn out to be the case.

Not very subtle, are they?

DTH

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

49. I've heard this slanderous lie before

You have cut and pasted this little anti-Clark slander, I've read it other places a few times before. Needless to say, calling General Clark a communist isn't going to work in this election. But I SURE HOPE the Republicans try it :)

[TacticalPeek]

53. Bring 'em on.

They'll wonder how their head wound up in their hands.

[stevedeshazer]

56. Bullshit

Progressive taxation is not dangerous. Dropping the terms "communist" and "socialist" in your post is a straw man. Defend your position, rather than dropping buzzwords.

Why is progressive taxation dangerous, communist, socialist? We made much progress when this was in place.

Should we dump Social Security and Medicare too, since you seem to think that prescription drug benefits are too "communist" or "socialist?"

Maybe the Democrats should propose a new tax cut, since Kennedy did 40+ years ago?

[MrPrax]

21. Does America Need a Former General?

At this particular time...???
Um...it sounds like a 'send in the clowns' move

Clark isn't positioned on any issue at the moment so 'who? put the Bee in his bonnet?'

[WaterDog]

24. I've seen General Clark

a few times on cable news shows. I was extremely impressed with the way he handled Sean Hannity. In fact, I nearly cheered to see someone put that a****** in his place so skillfully. I think he will probably be able to handle himself very well in a campaign. No one becomes a four-star general who doesn't have tremendous self-discipline and even political skill. Every Dem, especially the front-runner and later, the nominee, will be hugely attacked by the Repub/Rove propaganda machine. That said, I don't think any of it is sure-fire for Clark.

I'm for Dean but I like Clark. I'll be happy if he gets into the race.

[teryang]

32. I agree

Clark is very poised. He is a politically skilled. He handles himself well in the media. Like Dean, he is innately brilliant and doesn't need handlers to answer a question. I like a Dean Clark ticket. I've told the local Dean organization this and hope to see Dean at a local fund raiser. They are skeptical. Clark brings support from a southern political organization and could symbolically and rhetorically counter the meme that Dean is a unpatriotic or a pacifist. It is a potent combination. In my opinion, they both outshine the other candidates and in combination will be unstoppable.

Kerry is lumbering and awkward and must prepare and write down his talking points in advance. He does have the military background and moments of brillance. Clark could bring his campaign some life. Kucinich is brilliant but strident. He probably has the policies I agree with the most but he can't win. The corporate media will crucify him.

Gephart is the candidate with the most appeal in comparison with Dean and Clark. I think he has a lot of baggage related to our current problems. Personally I don't like him much but I admit he's a very able politician. He is also media trained and poised. Graham is doing the country a great service now with his campaign and would make a good VP because that office now is primarily a national security function. Clark or Graham as southerners with substantial national security experience would be ideal in this role. They could keep the Pentagon and intelligence functions under control. Obviously they are out of control now. I worry about Graham's health. He is not looking well. Both are very very competent executives. So is Dean.

[Adjoran]

27. Which candidate would NOT be attacked?

The Repubs will hit the nominee with both barrels and a cluster bomb, no matter who it is. One question to be answered is who will best fight back, and how?

The Clark supporters are certainly overly optimistic about their candidate's "immunity," but he does enjoy a certain advantage on defense issues, having risen to flag rank and even NATO command. The problem is the traditional tendency for the voters to view the Repubs as stronger on defense and security issues, and Democrats stronger on social and domestic policies. A Democratic general would dilute the opponent's strength.

I'm not a Clark supporter, especially since he isn't a candidate. But I don't think he has much to fear from the Bushies on security or defense.

[Pepperbelly]

33. it worries me a lot ...

and in a way, I kinda hope Wesley chooses not to run.

Like Max Cleland and so many others, he has lived an honorable life of service to his country. He has been a philosopher as well as a soldier and is a man of integrity and decency in his interactions with others and with the world. Like Max Cleland, he does not deserve the smears he is ALREADY getting, much less the crap that the gops will gen up trying to hold on to power. Like Max Cleland, he doesn't deserve the hatred that will be directed at him by these psychos.

In several ways, I fear for Wesley.

[jumptheshadow]

35. Sad but true

It's obvious they can't hit Clark on credentials so they are preparing one heck of a smear job. It's sickening. They're going to try to defeat him with slanderous sound bytes and many in this country won't look beyond the shallowness of it all. Nobody who has served honorably like Clark and Cleland should go through it.

We need these guys on our team, however. They strengthen our party. So unfortunately we must ask them to continue to serve their country.

[TacticalPeek]

52. True, running for prez, like aging, ain't for sissies.

But I hope that he is like the war horse who jumps the paddock and heads to the sound of the guns. This battle is more important than any across the oceans.

And "these psychos" (and their tactics and 'acceptance') must be engaged and defeated, soundly and soon, because they truly are a growing danger to our country. The USofA is mighty, but the endurance of freedom and democracy is not ordained. We stand on the shoulders of many who have moved the ball this far, with blood, sweat and tears, and we OWE them, and those who follow us. Freedom is not free.

Sometimes you must stand and deliver. Fear not for those who fight the good fight, but fear for our country if they don't.

Wesley Clark for President, damn it.

[poskonig]

38. You exaggerate at the end, but your point is clear.

I wouldn't say Clark is *extremely* vulnerable. You were right when you said

"He's just as vulnerable as any other Democrat will be."

[alfredo]

39. Though Clark may not be a true politician,

to rise to the rank of 4 star general, your political skills have to be well honed. Even making it to E-6 takes skills beyond the guy on the street. The military is very political. You have to have both skill at your job, and skill at persuasion to get ahead in the military. You may be the greatest tactician in the world, but if you cannot sell you plan to the others, you might as well forget it.

[Starpass]

45. This is '04, it ain't Georgia and people Hate politicians

The repukes could have fucked Jesus in public in Georgia and won because of how "red" it is (in more ways than one). '02 we were GOING to our glorious war and we were going to beat everyone in 10 minutes and set up DEEEMOCKRAHCEE in Iraq in 12 minutes after that. Now the war is over, we are in Viet Nam, we are bleeding money and the people are sick of it all. AND, you know how people love the military through out all this (they don't blame the military; they look at them as victims of Bush; they fall all over themselves to tell the military that they LOVE them). And you know how the people hate "those goddamn politicians..all liars...all the same...same shit different day.......I'd say that that is a real plus for Clark. He looks sqeakey clean like he just rode in on a white stallion. And, this time it's a national race where Mr AWOL better not atack any military person or it will get bloody nasty fast. If we are afraid of their attacks, then we better not run anyone. OR better still, we really better not run anyone who has a wife because it's the #1 thing the repukes love to attack. Let's go hide...it would be better.

[quaker bill]

54. Everyone is very vulnerable

Once the dirty tricks gang is cut loose with $200 million, the mud will fly.

If they don't have stuff on you, they will make it up. They will hire some bimbette to say she had an affair. Surely someone died under "mysterious circumstances" somewhere near where the candidate had been..... With computers, you can morph anyone's face into Osama's.

No matter who we pick, you know it's comming. And no doubt, if our candidate wins, it will keep on comming. I'd bet most of it has already been scripted...

[Donna Zen]

55. Who-what-how

Someone has a great essay about this out on the web. Basically it is about 3 possible emphasis in any campaign. The pubs cannot run on how, because they have no plan they are willing to share with the American public. Example: They never intended to leave Iraq, so an exit strategy was never considered.It's the vision thing that we must never be permitted to know.

What: With the repub policies being slanted toward rich contributors, they sugar coat them with kewl new names: "The Clean Skies Initiative." Details will be coming at a later date.

They ran against Gore with a "who." Dubya is someone you want to have a beer with; Gore is a liar.

They are planning a who campaign: Weak on defense, raise your taxes, not prepared, no family values. vs Dubya at Ground Zero and surrounded by children. (Don't underestimate their nerve...they will use the pixs from the African tour. It is probably the only reason he went.)

Therefore, I disagree with your premise if it is based on Clark's military experience being negated. First Zinni and others would shit themselves, and secondly, while they would try, their success would be marginal.

Oh_Clark is not immune, and they will want to run a "who" but Clark makes it so much more difficult. I like making it difficult because it gives me a fighting chance.

[union_maid]

58. And so far, this is all they've got

I'm reading the same "indictments" of Clark coming from both the extreme right and left. I say, if this is all they've got, Clark not have huge problems. Actually, I'm sure there'll be more, no matter who runs and even if they have to make stuff up out of whole cloth. Gonna have to deal with it no matter who runs. So far, Clark's credentials are looking quite good.