Are French suggestions unrealistic ?Are French suggestions unrealistic ?...

[BonjourUSA]

Sure, Villepin is playing harball, but he doesn't have the reputation to be a loony guy.


We have to ask these questions:

- In how long Iraq will be uncontrollable ? (already the US army doesn't patrol any more in Fallujah, nor in many Iraqi main towns except the Bagdad center with the well-known success).

- In how long the clergy shiite will be infiltrated in all the Iraqi civil society ? This situation will make the elections impossible.

- In how long Turquey will ask an important role in this area ?

- In how long Saudi Arabia will fall like a ripe fruit in the hands of the extremism?

If you believe that the answers are: "in little time", the French proposals take all their sense.


But the USA can't be humiliated. It wouldn't be a good thing for anyone and diplomacy must find solutions because the Bush's bullshit is a secondary problem in this matter.

In one point Powel is right when he says UN aren't the best choice for a troop command. The past proves that. The UN mandates are always too restrictive to be efficient.

I think we're in a fucking political, diplomatic and military situation.

[bowens43]

1. 'the USA can't be humiliated'?

A little humiliation is EXACTLY what the USA needs.

[Prodemsouth]

5. It is a shame we could not transfer the humiliation to the right.

I would hope the American left, makes clear that this is a humilation of the right, that we were mislead by the right. We should learn from the way we handled post Vietnam America, which resulted in people calling us anti American, unpatriotic, etc, a charge that is still stuck with us till this day. I agree humiliation is needed, but lets make sure the those who are most deserving of the humiliation receive it. Americans are more likely to be receptive to progressives if they don't think we are against them.

[BonjourUSA]

9. You're right and you're wrong too

You're right because US hegemonism is a real danger for our relations and a perverse american worldview.

You're wrong because a US humiliation would be a humiliation for all the democratic system in the extremist point of view.

[Prodemsouth]

10. Excellent point Bonjour, that is why I believe, that PNAC crowd, neo con

and the Republicans should be humiliated, not the USA. This will put them in a sling and their "hegemonism" will be discredited. Let them be the ones to suffer.

[BonjourUSA]

13. America is America

In politic foreign affairs, governments are their countries. You and me (and the great majority of french people, I can say) do this distingo but the History doesn't remember people feelings, only states behavior.

[Trajan]

14. Bonjour, .... with all due respect ....

You CANNOT cast those who fought against the Iraq war into the same group that DID support this stupid war ....

Intent is everything: .... I refuse to be held responsible for a war I strongly resisted .....

This assertion is a sweeping generalization fallacy ....

[Prodemsouth]

19. What Trajan said.

This is why it is very improtant that we refer to this as the Bush war, PNAC war, etc. I don't want to see anymore dying on either side, I want solider home now. To be harsh, The left can gain alot a crediability if it plays its cards right.

To Bonjor, I would say all Americans don't look at the French as Vichy. Despite what you see now, I learned much about the heroic French restiance.

[aneerkoinos]

15. History is not a God or Goddess

It is a sciense and there are many ways to do it. What we should do is do our best that in future history will be written from the point of view of the people, not states and their egotistic leaders dreaming of a glorious place in "History".

Actually the issue is not so much history or governements, but fear of loosing face, a universal psychological phenomenon of people confusing 'self' with 'ego'.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

17. My thoughts exactly...

If our government skips away scott free everytime they literally manufacture a friggin quagmire out of thin air, then there's no real deterrence in the future.

If Bush gets bailed out in this, then it sends a very bad message to future political cronies in office... i.e. you can literally pillage your way through office, and in the end someone else will clean up the mess.

[Prodemsouth]

2. Yes we are in a political diplomatic and military situation.

By using the F word, do you mean a bad situation or impasse? Sorry, a little trouble following through to your point.

[BonjourUSA]

3. We need quickly get out from this situation

Because we need quickly stability in the ME for our own stability and safety

[DemBones DemBones]

6. Correct again, for France and les Etats-Unis.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. I think that you are correct about the answer being "in little time"

to each question you asked. I do not know what the French proposals are. Would you tell us what France is proposing?

When you say "the USA can't be humiliated" do you mean tha France doesn't think the USA should be humiliated? Or do you mean the USA itself doesn't want to be humiliated?

[dmr]

7. From today's NY Times

U.S.-French Rift Reopened as Powell Arrives for Talks
By STEVEN R. WEISMAN


GENEVA, Saturday, Sept. 13 — Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, reopening the trans-Atlantic rift over Iraq — this time about expanding the authority of the United Nations there — said today that a French proposal to cut back the role of the American-led occupation was unacceptable.

Arriving in Geneva after midnight for intensive talks on Saturday about what role the United Nations should play, Mr. Powell also labeled as "totally unrealistic" a French suggestion that Iraq establish a provisional government in a month, write a constitution by the end of this year and hold elections next spring, all under United Nations auspices.

More ....
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/13/international/europe/13DIPL.html?th

[Prodemsouth]

11. I hope all the French bashers see that it is France that is wanting to

help our soliders out of this nightmare. Powell ...uuhh forget it.

[aneerkoinos]

8. My answers

- Iraq is uncontrollable right now, at least for the occupying powers.

- Shiite clergy is essential part of Iraqi society and I don't think they are opposed to elections (on the contrary, they might do very well in elections)

- Turkey has been demanding an important role in this area right for a long time. If that role includes military involvment, Iraqis are right to reject that.

- The days of the corrupted House of Saudi are numbered. It might fall today, next year, don't know. I don't think it will last more than five years.

Yeas, France is right, the more quickly Iraqi gets a legitimate Iraqi governement the better - and illegal occupating powers can't offer any legitimicy, only UN can. In practical terms the whole thing can be done in less than one year under UN supervision, just as France is proposing, Iraq getting democratically elected governement. Day by day, as US postpones giving political control to UN, the risk of all out civil war in Iraq increases. I'm afraid that waiting until possible regime change in US in 2004 will be too late and Iraq will be ruled by the strongest of the competing resistance movements after US troops are humiliated and thrown/pulled out from Iraq and Iraq civil war ends some time next decade.

[Gin]

12. * will not give up ownership and the windfall this has created.

Powell stated on TV las Sunday that " The US may not give up anything to get help in IRAQ" That is the way it's going. We want help...but will give nothing in return.

[The Zanti Regent]

18. Will someone please whack Stepin Fetchitt with a pie?

God, Powell is such a disgrace!

[Prodemsouth]

20. You tell em' I refrained from talking about Powell in an earlier post.

beautiful expression of my sentiments.

[BonjourUSA]

24. Do you think we have really another choice ?

First, remember that I am not pro-Bush, pro-neocons, pro anything else. I hate this dangerous administration and the first time I saw Bush I wondered how such an asshole could be in an american presidential run. I'm just trying to think about what it could happen in these very next weeks. To say : We didn't want Iraq war because it was an illegal one and UN must leave Bush in his shit is a right feeling but not a sane thinking.

Imagine, the USA drown in this shit. Iraq becomes incontrollable, the cost of the occupation grows up. Week after week, Israel stands on harder positions because its hands are free and many else unpredictable events. Result : we fall down in a deep recession. The terrorists attacks the western countries with the support of the arab crowds. The oil supplies from the middle-east are threatened (we use it too)... A real nightmare scenario.

So, we have no choice, we have to come in this crap. The question is : how, when, and in which conditions ?

[aneerkoinos]

30. You pose the right question

Sadly It must not be negotiable that UN get's the political control. If US does not agree to that I don't see what else can be done.

The reason is not bitternes, schadenfreude or other, but simply that US cannot be trusted, not by other permanent SC members and the least by the Iraqi people. The abilities of US in peacekeaping and nation building cannot be trusted, the motives of US bid to maintain political and military power cannot be trusted and the word of George W. Bush cannot be trusted. We in Europe might even forget our own doubts and give US the benefit of doubt, if it were not total pipe dream to believe that Iraqi people would start trusting US and Iraqi resistance would stop fighting against the occupation, there is no military solution to this situation, so we must accept that and act accordingly. Bringing stability and legimate governement and possibly even and functional democracy is simply not possible as long US controls Iraq politically and the illegal occupation continues. It will be more difficult with US maintaining the military control but hopefully possible, so that is worth a try, however untidy and embarrassing to any side.

The only workable policy I see is to give Iraqi people chance to govern themselves ASAP, in a year, according to the French plan. We can't guarantee they will succeed but we can guarantee that not US and not even UN can do better that Iraqi people. The humanitarian crisis and increasing instability in- and outside Iraq cannot be solved effectively before the political requirement of self-rule is solved or at least credibly promissed.

So if Powel don't back down, there's really no point for France and other responsible nations to give any support, moral or material, to an "allie" they can't trust and to policy that they know is doomed to fail, when they know pretty certainly that things will get just worse even if they go along and do it Powel's way.

[janx]

31. Bonjour, when I heard about the oil contracts France and Russia

had with Iraq, and how that situation was completely ignored by the Bush administration, I got fairly angry. There hasn't been a lot of news about it in the States.

Alors, oui, nous sommes dans le merde. Tout le monde! Et je ne sais pas nous pouvons en mesure arreter Bush. Pardonnez-moi, mon Francais, c'est tres mauvais. J'ai oublie.

The only thing most of us American citizens can do now is to push hard to elect someone else. (I support and volunteer for Howard Dean, others support other candidates.) And that won't help anyone in the meantime. We can try and write letters to our representatives, but what will that do in the next few weeks?

That Bush has trashed our relationships with our allies is a disgrace to many of us here.

--la petite Kieffer

[BonjourUSA]

32. Just to put all things at their rigth place

Iraq represented 5/365 of French trade.

Do you remember the annual exhibition of Baghdad? Many Western companies tried to sell their products, including the foreign affiliates of the American companies. But all the sales were to be approved by the American authority responsible for the embargo (and Bristish too). In addition I point out that the USA always had an embassy in Baghdad. This one was lodged in the embassy of Poland bulding.

The Bush administration could not thus be unaware of anything.

[Yupster]

28. I go to this website

www.askimam.com

It's best use seems to be for Muslims living in the western world to be able to ask religious experts on questions about keeping their faith while living away.

There are lots of questions about how to treat western women and that kind of thing.

Anyway, one person asked a question about Islamic Governments, asking we always hear about establishing an Islamic government, but what would an Islamic government look like? How would it be chosen.

Here's the answer that was givin...



"In principle, according to Shari’ah there are 3 ways of electing a ruler:

Bay’at: Taking allegiance to a particular person, like the companions took allegiance to Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Anhu).

Deputism: A current ruler consults his council and stipulates a ruler after his demise.

Consultation: Ruler appoints certain responsible citizens and hands over the autonomy of appointing a ruler after his demise. (Rafun Niqaab vol.6 pg.145; HM Saeed)

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai"

I thought -- jeepers, it's the 21st Century and these guys are advocating dictatorship as the proper form of government?

[Flying_Pig]

16. Non!

n/t

[G_j]

21. another question

do you think the * gang knew that if they had gone along with the French and allowed the UN weapons inspectors to finish their job, there would be no WMD? I think that's what the rush was about, get the PNAC war going before the truth came out that WMDs were a lie.

And I think the French are right again this time.

[Yupster]

29. I think

the US government felt the campaigning season was going day by day and if they didn't attack they'd have to wait a whole nother year, and they couldn't keep the troops in theatre for that long.

They needed to attack soon or pull back and they didn't want to pull back in front of Saddam.

[sistersofmercy]

22. I think our gov is already being humilated and rightfully so...

Everything Junior and his thugs have touched has turned into a disaster. First let me say I oppose this crimnal war and I oppoose this oil regime. However, we do need to find a solution to Iraq.
I understand a defeat would not be good, UN should be allowed to oversee elections, but power and decision making should be shared among the participating nations.
Turkey is a problem with the Kurds in the North, don't know about that one.
For those who support Shia control, understand this, they have been targeting christians in Iraq who own liquor stores by assinating them and/or blowing their stores up. Under saddam only christians could sale alcohol. In addition, two women who who worked at school, one was a principal, I forget what the other one did, were assinated by fundamental shia after they were warned not to work. Did you notice in the funeral procession for the cleric in Najaf there were no woman?
Yes there are shia who are not fundamentalists but a large majority are.
A really good start would be to get Chalabi and the INC out of any government positions.

[Prodemsouth]

23. At least someone has really been thinking things though..

Unfortunately for our country and the world no one would listen to them. You bring up some very good points and are thinking ahead on this issue. Iraq was one country where Christians were able to practice their faith to a great degree of liberty. Ohh, I think the Christain right needs to see the information you provided for us today.

[sistersofmercy]

25. I wish all of America could read about these horrible things going on

there. There is so much more than the things I've cited.

[supernova]

26. No, I don't think France is being unrealistic

in the main. I don't think that's the point. I do think Villepin is indulging in some serious hardball. He really wants Bush Co over a barrel before any agreements go down. And I can't blame him one bit.

The only way to do that is to at first stake out a seemingly ridiculous plan. Think about it. Before the war, the US was non-stop saying we gotta go in, we gotta go in, we gotta do it now, no time left. And how rotten of our allies to be dragging their feet. Practically the entire planet was saying "what's your hurry?" How right you were. So now we the US decide we need the UN, and NOW look who's doing the "We gotta go in now" speech, and who's dragging OUR feet? It's actually a neat bit of irony. :D

I think France and Germany should engage in some schadenfreude at our expense. :spank: It's the only way people like Bush learn, if they ever.

To answer your questions:

- Iraq will be in a state of confusion until their constitution is put into place and the first round of elections are safely held. This might take many years. We Americans seem to have forgotten that we spent 13 years wandering the political desert between the Revolutionary War and the ratification of the Constitution.

- The influence of the Shiite clergy is worrisome if you are aiming for a secular society with religion as private practice. I don't have an answer to that. It will largely be what the Iraqi people want.

- Turkey will always want to exert influence in the area. They especially don't want an independent Kurdish state, as that might weaken their eastern border with iraq.

- I agree Saudi Arabia is a powder keg. It's not something that anyone of us can control.

[stopbush]

27. Grâce au bushco,

Amérique déjà a été humiliée plusieurs fois.