If they deploy BBV, won't they be open to thousands of lawsuits?

[Stephanie]

Isn't that enough of a deterrant for the states? Wouldn't EVERY single race, in EVERY county, EVERY state, be contestable? Based just on the evidence we have so far?

Florida was just a warm-up. If they attempt to deploy BBV in every state for 2004, I envision thousands of legal challenges, based just on what we know so far. The 2004 elections, local, state, and national, could be tied up in court for years.

Shouldn't that be enough to derail this move to BBV?

[Newsjock]

1. The courts don't care

Even if some lower-court judges "got it" and ruled against BBV, you've got those fine Supremes who have already made their voices heard in Bush v. Gore.

Challenge all you want -- they'll just appeal all the way up to the Supremes.

[Stephanie]

2. Not just one challenge - THOUSANDS

Every BBV-aware candidate who lost a race against the odds could mount a challenge. Thousands of cases in thousands of courts. Thousands of judges. Every race for state legislature, local judge, mayor. Not all of them would be funneled up to the SC. Some local candidates would win in court on some issues, such as discovery. Counties would be open to liability. IMO. Not a lawyer. Am I wrong?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

3. Here is where I think the real danger lies...

The fact that it is POSSIBLE to steal an election, doen't mean the election WAS stolen, and the electronic machines make it IMPOSSIBLE to find evidence of fraud.

You see, with ANY other method, you can find the tampered machine or show that ballots are missing, but with a Diebold machine for instance, there would be NO WAY to prove that the votes shown at the end were NOT the votes cast.

That is why there MUST be a paper trail, and why they are fighting this.

So it would be likely that no case would ever be proven to the level required by a court.

[Stephanie]

5. What about damages suits?

What if a candidate loses against the odds, sues on the grounds that the machines are unverifiable, and proves that he has been irreparably harmed? Wouldn't that be an enormous burden on the BBV companies, times thousands of potential cases? Who will insure them?

[Eloriel]

10. Absolutely right on

Under the current circumstances, there is no way to acquire proof of fraud - not that I can tell.

* The code cannot legally be reviewed by anyone except vendors themselves.

* Not even the certifiers at national or state levels have reviewed the code that we can determine, though Ciber claims it does in its capacity as Independent Testing Authority (ITA).

* Further, there would be no way to prove that any of the final election results were incorrect because there is no reliable, independent paper trail. (Bev has shown that the audit logs are unreliable for use in an audit.)

* Even if there were, in Georgia and other states, only the “electronic vote” is the legal vote, rendering any voter-verified paper ballots unusable for recounts or as evidence.

In other words, not only can they steal our votes with impunity, they’ve made it literally impossible for anyone to catch them doing it, or prove after the fact that they did.

It’s a closed system and corporations are its owners.

Russ Holt's bill addresses some of this and before the 2004 election -- H.R. 2239 (BE CAREFUL -- there's a faux bill out there, 22-eight-9).

Eloriel

[Stephanie]

4. For instance, with our new knowledge

consider this, times thousands, including local, state and NATIONAL election results:

http://www.naplesnews.com/02/08/florida/d810630a.htm

Expert says Palm Beach's new voting machines are flawed

Wednesday, August 21, 2002

By JILL BARTON, Associated Press

WEST PALM BEACH — An elections systems expert hired by a man who lost a city election inspected Palm Beach County's new voting machines Tuesday and pronounced them flawed.

Rebecca Mercuri, a computer science professor at Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania, tried out one machine and pored over accuracy test results from a March election in Boca Raton. Former Mayor Emil Danciu lost that election and sued to have the results overturned.

<snip>

Mercuri says the machines should provide paper receipts so voters can be sure their ballots are cast. LePore said receipts invite even more trouble and would need to be carefully stored and hand-counted if questions arise about an election.

LePore said her staff needs to be preparing the new machines for the Sept. 10 primary election, which will be the first statewide test of Florida's new voting technology. She said she complied with a circuit judge's order to allow a walkthrough and inspection.

<snip>

"We're not saying that the machine itself malfunctioned but that there were glitches," said Charlotte Danciu, Emil Danciu's daughter and attorney. "The bigger picture is we're looking for accuracy in the electoral system."

[Stephanie]

7. Now this FL judge ruled in favor of Corp. rights over Voter rights

And barred the examination of "proprietary" software. But we know so much more now, and the grounds to contest a BBV election would be solid. How can counties defend against this? They can't all prevail, in the face of what we know about BBV.

[peacetalksforall]

6. File the lawsuit against the election board and the

manufacturer? Would a combined suit be viable?

Right now, the election boards are only going to
blame the manufacturers and they, in turn, will say
the machines weren't operated correctly or there were
power surges or not every worker understood the role
or were not trained. The blame game will be time
consuming.

So far, I am shocked at the way the election boards
have spoken out in such trust for the machines and
the manufacturers.

Tests...security...there has to be a record of how
each election board went about validating the
security of their purchase. Right? Don't let them
off. They are key.

[Stephanie]

8. I'm thinking thousands of individual suits

Bush v. Gore times 10,000. Let THEM prove the machines are reliable. They can't. And for every case like Max Cleland's, who lost in a surprise BBV upset, at whatever level, let there be tenacious legal challenges, thousands of them.

I realize this could happen too late for 2004, and what I am asking is, shouldn't the potential of thousands of lawsuits be enought deterrant to prevent the BBV rollout?

[Kelvin Mace]

9. Oh, I am quite sure that

unless things change radically before the 2004 election, there will be *lots* of legal challenges from losers in close races.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org