Dean's support a mile wide but an inch deep?

[blessedleader]

I was at the Harkin Steak Fry yesterday and EVERYBODY was wearing Dean Stickers/T-Shirts/Whatever (exaggeration, of course, but Dean was the most represented in the "wear my junk" category) but none of his supporters seemed particularly enthused, unlike the Kerry, Edwards or even the Graham supporters. Then Dean said the same things he's been sayin' and the reaction was ho-hum. . . I know they had a rally for Dean before the event, so maybe all the Dean supporter's energy was spent. . .

It just looks like people are just going to where the momentum is and if anyone else finds any momentum, they might/will feel free to change boats. . . For people wanting to be involved in politics this summer, Dean was the only place to be. . . but now the campaigns are going to head into high gear, and there's a multitude of places to be involved. . .and a few of the other candidates are damn good people.

any thoughts?

(ps i'm undecided, probably out of Braun, Kucinich, Dean & Clark for me though)

[Enraged American]

1. Dean's not progressive enough for progs., not moderate enough for mods.

[salin]

3. Excellent summation of the criticism

around Dean - from both directions.

[SmileyBoy]

57. That means he's exactly right for me.

And that means he's exactly right for America.

For the man who's not to the right enough to be a moderate, but who is also not quite fit for the "ultra-progressive" fringe.

The Doctor Is In!!!!!

[blm]

2. If Dean had longheld progressive beliefs that

showed in his record as governor, I'd say he was the most formidable of candidates. But, he is new to running from the left and his discomfort creeps in whether many acknowledge it or not.

[Eloriel]

9. He hasn't changed the position he's running on, blm

and you know it.

Eloriel

[blm]

27. All a matter of emphasis. Started out centrist, then tacked left.

You may not wish to acknowledge his changes but they are there for objective readers. Early on he would rarely bring up civil unions as an accomplishment. He stressed his NRA credentials. He did change his stance on free trade. He altered his hardline position on Israel to line up behind Clinton's policy.


March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm
>>>>>
Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.

Other things working in his favor, he added, are: "I'm not from Washington. I'm very direct with people. I say what I think. People always know where I stand. ‘.‘.‘. I think people are ready for that."


http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml
>>>>>>>
He spoke generally of the "four guys from Congress" who have declared their intention to run: U.S. Sens. John Edwards of North Carolina, John Kerry of Massachusetts, Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and U.S. Rep. Dick Gephardt of Missouri. Later, he said he hadn't referred to the fifth candidate, the Rev. Al Sharpton, because Sharpton hasn't had any experience as an elected official.

He said nothing at all about what he is probably most famous for doing as governor: signing a court-ordered bill to legalize civil unions for gay couples. In other forums, Dean has said he would leave the issue up to the states to resolve individually.
>>>>>>>

Dean kept his distance from his party's liberals during his governorship.

''He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements,'' said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats' liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

. . .

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

. . .

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. ''The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative,'' Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/139/region/Those_who_know_Dean_says_he_s_:.shtml


>>>>>

[TLM]

11. BLM no matter how many times you repeat this crap

It is still crap.

Dean has always been a moderate liberal, and he has always run as a moderate, just as he is doing now.

You try to act like he turned his back on the left in Vermont, because at some point he dared to say that liberals like eldman were wrong on a spending issue?

Yet you ignore Kerry voting for the no child left behind act, the patriot act, the 350 billion tax cut, and the Iraq war... and you call Dean the evil centrist.

The fact is that Kerry's DLC tried very hard to pigeonhole Dean as a far leftist super liberal in order to torpedo his campaign... and when it didn't work you bashers started up with the new talking point that Dean is too far right.

It is your bullshit accusations that change every other week, not Dean's positions.

[PurityOfEssence]

53. Are you STILL repeating Dean's deceptive slander on the tax-cut issue?

You know full well that this is a hideous distortion designed to buffalo the ignorant.

When they couldn't stop a huge tax cut, some Senators tried to float a much smaller one to try and save something from a disastrous situation. They failed, but the went down fighting. They voted against the President's tax cuts.

Yet Dean puffs up and slags "those four guys from Congress" when they were nobly fighting to stop the tax cut altogther and then at least reduce the damage.

Please apologize and stop this. You've demanded people answer your responses, and when we have, with FACTS, you do not respond, merely resurfacing elsewhere to distort some more.

Dean repeatedly uses half-truths and casual lumping together of his opponents to obfuscate. He viciously insults Senators by crowing that he's the only one speaking about race to white audiences--something that's completely untrue--and then shrieks like the persecuted that those he's deeply wronged could have the effrontery to point it out.

At least he admits he's got a big mouth and should watch it--a resolution he might actually try--but as he slings mud, much of it sticks. It just smells of deliberate, serial innuendo. When's he gonna start talking about pink underwear or waving fake lists of State Department Employees? It happens too frequently to just shrug it off as "passion".

The world does not owe him the nomination.

[CWebster]

59. Just one thing to say

Had one of the four--just once--it only had to be once, stood alongside Robert Byrd or stood alone and stood strong, just one time in the past 2 and half years while the Bush team attacked on all fronts and represented to us that they stood shoulder to shoulder with the people's interest instead of the idiots son's they wouldn't fall to such soft blows today.

[blm]

61. Did Dean stand up with Gore and Kerry on national TV?

NO! He stood with Bush over them, and even implied that Gore and Kerry were wrong to go after Bush. But that was BEFORE the antiwar crowds grew and he was still planning to run as a conservative Democrat.

He stood with Bush on Yucca Mt., too. Hell, he's all for deregulating electricity, something even Trent Lott is against.

[PurityOfEssence]

62. That's revolting; so they deserve to be lied about?

Will someone scrape up an ethic or two and admit that these tactics are despicable and cynically designed to capitalize on peoples' ignorance?

How can Deanies demand "fairplay" and the simultaneous right to do as they damn well please--including rabble-rousing lying--with no criticism?

Yeah, one hazards a lot by being in office, especially in the opposition at a time of great strife.

This is outrageous. It's okay for you to misrepresent members of your fellow party on extremely important issues, especially when they're "doing the right thing" in the face of near-futility? Are you saying that they're so despicable that it's "fair" to slander them? What's the difference between this and the Republican belief of entitlement? They often don't feel bounded by truth either because they've determined that they're morally superior and answering a higher calling.

You're not saying that it's fair, you completely change the subject to their vulnerability. What you do do, though, is intimate that it's some kind of karmic comeuppance for not having toed the line to your satisfaction.

Please respond to this. Is it deeply, spiritually wrong what Dean has done in these two instances, and is it just as morally bankrupt of the supporters who are deliberately furthering the distortions? If not, then why? We needn't have hair shirts and self-flagellation, but there hasn't been the slightest mention that I've heard, and to continue it is just greasy.

Or, in short, WHO THE FUCK DOES THIS PERSON THINK HE IS? At least if he took his licks like a grownup, I could tolerate his combativeness. He was the one who started the attacks on his fellow candidates, not them. He was the one who rubbed their noses in the defecate of them not being true Democrats.

Even with that, my chief beef here is with his supporters; will any of you stand up and specifically address the tax-cut lackey lie? Will anyone make a pledge to help the Dean Phalanx from continuing to mention it? Have some decency.

[hippywife]

4. I was originally looking at

Kerry before I knew much about any of them. Then I started reading more about Dennis and that all changed. I had already made my final decision when I saw Dean tripping all over his tongue on MTP and decided I had made the right choice. Haven't looked back since!!

Am finding more Kucinich supporters everyday! So I think you are right that as time goes on, the dynamics of this is going to be changing drastically...and for the better. :)

[dfong63]

5. mighty big conclusions from mighty small evidence

[AP]

8. That's what we do here. We hash out ideas before they crest. It's good

If you have something to contribute -- facts or theory -- feel free. But if your criticism is that this evidence is too slight, you should take it for granted that this could be said about most every post here. Sometimes it isn't worth noting (but sometimes it is).

[einsteins stein]

6. If Dean's support were flatlined, I might buy it..

but the guy just keep doing better, and his support just keeps increasing, all of it seems to be at the grass roots level, and his war chest is built on donations that are small and numerous.

I think that a better example would be to say that Dean's support is a mile wide, a mile high, but only as thick as a $50 bill. :-)

[Cha]

21. I like your style! Welcome to DU, einsteins stein!

:yourock:

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

29. Well said!

111,814 signed up for Meetups (up from 100,000 on Sept. 3)
396,443 signed up on his website (the last 10,000 or so in 2-3 days).

Maybe some of his supporters seemed tired during his speech because they had driven 9 hours to get there (at least one bus did) and had already rallied beforehand. I dunno, but when I watched on Cspan they seemed pretty excited during Dean's speech.

I don't worry about his support waning. People keep talking about him peaking too early, but I haven't seen anything but exponential growth in his support in 6 months.

[einsteins stein]

56. LOL, thanks! I'm lovin DU, even when I disagree with the crowd.

Which doesn't happen all that much, anyway...but back to the thread.

Just as James Brown is the hardest working man in showbiz, Howard Dean has got to be about the hardest working main in politics right now, the guy is everywhere, and OW! I feel good, like I knew that I would!

Of course, some people can never be pleased. Dean is too unknown, or he's too saturated in the press. Dean is a nut for opposing the war, or Dean is not a true pacifist. Dean is too far left, too far right, or too centrist. Dean panders to the people, or Dean is too honest, and says things that are impolitic. Dean is too outside, or too inside, can't compare to Clinton, or is too Clintonesque.

If you can judge a man by those who oppose him, then Dean must be the most serious, honest, and straightforward voice to hit the political scene in a year of Sundays, simply because his most vocal critics represent the least of those qualities.

I'll vote for any Dem in 2004. ANY DEM. Even Lieberface. But Howard Dean is the only voice that I hear that makes me want to stand up an yell IM MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Hey! Wasn't that character from Network named Howard also? Something very close to Howard Dean, but I cant remember it now.

Anybody want to set me straight?

[tridim]

7. I can't speak for others

but my support for Dean is a mile wide and goes all the way down to the core of the earth. He's a rock solid candidate IMO. I have many non-political friends who are crazy about the Dean revolution. They love the guy, and I don't think it's just bandwagon type support.

[Eloriel]

14. Yep. Me too.

Well said.

Eloriel

[tedoll78]

40. You've described my situation also.

Non-political friends of mine are responding to this guy. They actually like the fact that he trips-up once in a while, instead of coming-off as so finely polished and insider-ish; they see this as a great human trait.

As examples: they didn't know the offence by the phrase "even-handed," so they could relate when his detractors tried to nail him on it. Hell, on the entire "honest broker" controversy from this past week, they largely saw the whole issue as his opponents trying to gain traction by semantic criticism.

I'm a bit more uncomfortable than them, but I get easily worried anyway. You should see me pacing around the living room during debates.. like a hungry lion in a zoo cage.. antsy..

[AP]

10. Another argument might be that it's a mile deep and an inch wide

Dean may be getting most of a small segment of the left, but that doesn't mean he's going to get a lot of the rest. He started early with the hard line anti-Bush activists. It's a constituency that is naturally going to be interested early. But if his message only works for them and not for the vast majority of Dems who aren't in this category, you might see a drop-off in support (and big money).

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. Wrong...this is a whole new base

It's NOT just liberals that make up the energized base this time around. Dean actually has his own "base" that have never before been involved in the nomination process. Sure, there are a few liberals that make up that base, but most of them are moderates.

[Clete]

12. So if the supporters are worn from an earlier rally,

what is the purpose of this post? Isn't there enough Dean bashing going on here already?

[wtmusic]

13. I guess we'll just find out, won't we?

[Cha]

15. Did you see the rally before the event? Then you might have

something to compare it to.


I find this interesting..

"Governor Howard Dean will be in Atlanta, Georgia on Monday, September 15 to officially launch Generation Dean, the nationwide movement built by young people supporting Dean’s candidacy for president. As Dean for America’s official youth outreach organization, Generation Dean seeks to reach out and engage the millions of young Americans in the political process."

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. Generation Dean??????

there goes the hair on the back of my neck again.

[Orangepeel]

16. but, but, but.... I thought that it was a cult of personality!

Dean has deep support from core supporters, weak support from many, many others.

:shrug:

Is every one of the 100,000 and some people signed up at meetup a core supporter? Of course not. There are many people who have expressed interest that are luke warm or merely Dean-curious. But so what? I'll take it.

Based on my observation, the number of core supporters who support him strongly is at least as big as the number of core supporters who support any other candidate strongly. Moreover, the numbers of people giving him marginal support is bigger than the number of people giving marginal support to other candidates.

[OrdinaryTa]

17. Kerry's Narrow Support

If Dean's support is an inch deep and a mile wide, Kerry's support is a half-inch deep and a furlong* wide. Kerry's vote for the war is his undoing. He can claim he "agonized" over that vote, but other Democrats had no trouble at all with it. The war was a fraud, and Kerry should have known it.

Kerry's support is similar to that of Kucinich or Sharpton. Each of them has a small number of intensely dedicated followers. But since we're among friends, let's admit it: these guys are going nowhere.

____________________________________

* How long is a furlong? 220 yards

[JohnKleeb]

20. Umm Ta

Would you say the same this time last year with Dean having low poll numbers then. Seriously would you? You know as well as I do that poll standing doesnt mean jack.

[w4rma]

18. Lots of photos from the Steak Fry and a pic of Dean and Clinton at podium

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/23633/3/808578

and more photos are here:
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001449.html#more

[Cha]

19. Hey, w4arma! Those pictures are Cool! Thanks!

I wish we could bring them over but this is Fine!

Dean looks real Happy!

[kentuck]

23. Free speech zones ???

Why do they have people behind fences ??

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/23633/3/808550

[w4rma]

32. Nah, there were lots and lots of folks right in front of the podium (pics)

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/23633/3/808543
http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/23633/3/808542
http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/23633/2/808343

[Cha]

37. Ouuuuh! I like that!...."I Believe In DEAN!"

Those are Sweet!

[w4rma]

38. I do too. Dean supporters really seem to overwhelm the Steak Fry.

It seems like there is at least one Dean supporter there for each supporter of the other 8 or 9 candidates combined. :hi:

[sugarcookie]

54. Amazing pictures!

Just got an email from my aunt in Greenfeild, IA. My cousins and their families were there. One, who is a Dean supporter drove in from Minn. to attend the steak fry. Hearing they got to hear the candidates and Clinton was the next best thing to being there myself.

edit: changed a word

[Classical_Liberal]

22. The steak fry is insiders though

so I am not surprised.

[blessedleader]

26. insiders???

they all looked like normal iowans to me.

[Classical_Liberal]

28. Dean brings in the alienated

I never said party insiders weren't normal Iowans. The people at the steak fry are not alienated voters though. They aren't alienated from the Dems either.

[w4rma]

34. Dean supporters march from rally to Steak Fry, streching nearly 1/3 mile

[BuelahWitch]

48. Ummm, no...

Neither I nor most of the people I was with can be called "insiders". Most had never worked on a campaign before. I had never given money to a candidate before Govenor Dean. And I've *certainly* never attended a major national Dem event before.

Nope, can't be categorized as an "insider."

[pruner]

51. the steak fry was open to anyone making a $25 donation

I guess your definition of an insider is different than the generally accepted definition.

[Evanstondem]

24. Dean Has Deep Support

If Dean supporters are so uninvolved, why did so many of them show up on a rainy day and why are so many of them at Dean Meetups this month? Most people who come to an event like the Harkin Steak Fry are highly motivated Democrats, and as you say Dean had many more supporters than any of the other candidates.

I actually thought Dean did more to tailor his speech to local concerns than most of the other speakers I saw; he mentioned a plant closing in Moline that is costing some Iowans their jobs.

[Cha]

30. Thank you for those observations!

:kick:

[dkf]

25. Dean's support is a mile deep with me.

I've never been more enthused by a candidate in my life.

Nothing will sway me because Dean is the only candidate who will talk about all the various elephants in the room.

Dean is also the only candidate who will be free from special interests enough to tackle our problems.

The rest will just skirt around some really big issues because they can't even bring themselves to talk about certain subjects. Wimps.

We need a President who is willing to see and talk about all of our problems.

And yes, I must say that Dennis Kucinich probably also fits this bill, but he weirds me out too much so I can't support him. He's got some good ideas though.

[CMT]

31. I can only go by what I see around me

and at his meetups is lots of support both wide and deep for Dean. Not only at Meetups but when we are in the community, such as a Farmer's Market, people will come up to our table and tell us how much they like and support Dean. We've gone thru I don't know how many bumper stickers. I watched the Steak Fry on TV yesterday and he seemed to get a pretty enthusiastic response from the people from what I saw.

I guess I don't understand why people can't write a positive thread about the candidate they support but instead have to write a thread about like this which pretends to ask a question about Dean's support but is obviously just another negative Dean thread.

[blessedleader]

35. maybe you missed it.

I don't have a candidate I support right now.

I was underwhelmed and disappointed by the Dean people yesterday and thought I'd say so. I'm sorry.

[Cha]

39. That's why it's good to look at the whole picture and not just

one tiny part of it.

[LWolf]

33. I don't think so.

Dean supporters seem pretty dedicated to me.

I think the difference you will see are all of those who haven't made a choice yet; who waited for the campaigns to heat up, and to watch the candidates campaign for awhile before they got busy supporting anyone. The other candidates' supporters are likely to get more vocal from this point on, giving us more to notice than the Dean support.

[JNelson6563]

36. not here

My support for Dean is wide and deep. And, I am happy to report, that here in this Repug. strong-hold that is widely apathetic Dean support is growing. Quickly. I've been to the meet-ups and last night's house party and I am amazed at the growth. Even more amazing is how many of these supporters tell me they've never been involved in politics beyond voting. As a member of my local Dem Board I am delighted to see the people stirring and getting interested. I chair membership and it seems to me Dean is the best thing that could come along for upping Dem membership in a long time. Believe me it's been great and only continues to be so.

Dean is the man.

Julie

[tsipple]

41. Well, We'll See...

That's the easy part about this question. We get to find out soon the answer.

There's actually some polling data on this question, in the form of Clark (and how putting him in the mix affects other candidates). And adding Clark doesn't seem to affect Dean's level of support any differently than other candidates.

[w4rma]

44. “doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead…Dean is the only one who could hold his own”

…
Under the Clinton scenario, Kerry would fall into the second tier of Democratic hopefuls, favored by just 16 percent of voters. All the other Democratic candidates would be relegated to the single digits.

Dean’s support among independent- and reform-minded voters seems intact with or without Clinton in the race while Kerry would find his base of support among traditional Democratic voters threatened, according to Herald pollster R. Kelly Myers.

“If Hillary Clinton suddenly expressed some interest in the race, the biggest potential loser is Kerry,” Myers told the Herald. “She doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead at all ... As of today, Dean is the only one who could hold his own (against Clinton).”
…
http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/July2003/July_28/News/reg_pol_0728a.asp

A new Prez Preferece poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456

Clark V Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196331

[tsipple]

45. Forgot About That Polling

That's a good point, polling with and without Hillary Clinton on the list. Thanks for that.

[Deja Q]

42. Ah, how those swing voters are the pinnacle of American charm and grace...

:eyes: Swing voters only care about who can sing and dance the best. They have nothing they truly believe in. They're also the type who ultimately stop voting because they think it's a waste (and how corporations control the scene is merely the 'reality' they wish to survive in.)

Corporations foster the 'dog eat dog' aspect of society... and civilized societies would readily throw the 'dog eat dog' mentality out the window.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

43. I don't get that sense at all

Everytime I meet other Dean supporters, I am always amazed at how much enthusiasm there is, especially among people my age. Many of the people I know who are volunteering for the campaign were not even into politics before...like my friend Matt, a theater major at Columbia who had never been really active before but quit his job last summer to work full time unpaid doing flyering and tabling and stuff for the campaign. And the people I meet who are party insiders also seem more excited about Dean than they usually are...at the Young Dems Convention in Buffalo, the response he got was electrifying. One night during the convention, the NJ delegation, which at that time included me, three other Dean supporters and a Kerry supporter, were having dinner at Chili's. The Kerry supporter asked my friend Chip, who is supporting Dean and has worked on many campaigns at the state and local and national level and served for a year as the executive director of the Morris County Democratic Committee, if he had ever been this enthused about a candidate before, and he said "no. definitely not." That said a lot, because I had thought that some of my enthusiasm might just be because I am new to the process. But Chip has worked for a bunch of candidates for all different offices, and he had never worked for a candidate he was this excited about before.

Most of the Dean supporters I meet are like that. One of the things that gets people's attention and leaves them with a favorable impression of Dean is just how enthusiastic we are when we go out flyering or tabling or to a rally. We are crazy about Dean, and we have the kind of enthusiasm that it is going to take to overcome the Republicans' big money advantage.

I am a firm believer that the Republicans won in 2002 because they were more fired up and they wanted it more, while too many Democrats were angry at the Democratic Party and either stayed home or voted Green or voted Democratic but held their nose. I am not even angry with the party the way many in our campaign are, but I think that the lack of enthusiasm for the Democrats among both liberals and centrists hurt us a lot in 2002, and that is why I think it is important to have a candidate who can generate a lot of enthusiasm. I have seen Dean electrify audiences, I have talked to people who say they have not had a candidate they liked this much in 30 years, I have attended rallies where people (myself sometimes included) have come from hours away just to see him speak for 20 minutes. That is the kind of enthusiasm and excitement we need to win, and that is a big part of why I decided to support Dean back in February and have become more and more confident in my choice ever since.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope - The Great Grassroots Campaign

[dsc]

47. You are original if nothing else

I have no idea how many times Dean supporters have been called over zealous, cultists, fanatics, kool aid drinkers (as in Jonestown). You are the first who has complained about a lack of enthusiasm.

[Cha]

49. Really!

[fabius]

50. IMHO Dean support is very wide and deep

The Dean supporters I've met are very, very committed.

Just worked a street fair this weekend. We got about 2 "fingers" from wingers, but we got dozens of passersby who had already heard of Dean and a lot of supporters. People registered to vote, most of them marking "independent". A lot of people walked right past the table and smiled and said "I'm with you!" and a lot of cars driving by honked and waved. We had almost TOO MANY volunteers! 4 to 6 per 2 hour shift. My wife and I went home early because there were so many Dean workers there.

Will it last? We'll see.

I cut my "political" teeth in AZ back in 1980 working for the Democratic ticket in general, and nobody was very excited about Jimmy Carter.

I Worked for Mondale in '84 and it was more energetic but mostly anti-Reagan.

I sam Clinton on CSPAN at the steak fry, He says the Democratic field is the best in decades. I agree with him. Best in fact since 1968 BEFORE RFK was shot. Dean is leading this excellent field.

[Shanty Oilish]

55. Maybe it's just the opposite

Inch wide, mile deep.

[CWebster]

58. it's another Dean has peaked moment

LOL!

[PAMod]

60. Democrats want to win. Period.

His support will stay a mile wide, and hopefully will widen right through November and beyond (unless the national party pulls the plug.)

You know what happens to the candidate with the widest support, don't you?

He wins the election.