Republicans and Democrats have sold out the American people

[Q]

- It's a painful, bitter truth that Democrats need to recognize in order to better plan for the future. Many of you have seemingly been convinced that as a minority party the Dems have no power to confront the corrupt Bush* administration. This is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated by the Democratic party. They have the power of the Constitution...but simply refuse to use it to protect their political careers and for fear of being attacked by the Neocon media.

- Republicans sold us out in the 80s when they covered up the crimes of Reagan/Bush and in the 90s with their attempt to remove a sitting president with false charges.

- Democrats sold out in 2000 when they helped cover up the crimes of the Bush*/Cheney election fraud and ever since then by becoming enablers of a warmongering, corrupt executive branch.

- As a Democrat...do you understand that GWB* was not elected but installed into office by a (judicial) coup? Do you understand that Gore is the legitimate president and that Democrats helped keep him from taking office?

- Do you understand that the Democratic party ignored the pleas of the Democratic Black Caucus when they called for hearings and investigations into election fraud and civil rights violations in Florida and other places?

- Do you understand that the Democratic party helped the Bush* administration by not vigorously fighting for hearings and investigations into Enron, Halliburton, Harken, California 'energy crisis' and 9-11?

- Do you understand that the Bushies have outright lied about the reasons to invade Iraq and the Democratic party has done little to set the record straight?

- The Democrats have done little or nothing to try to counter the many lies of the Bush* administration...and now find themselves being called liars and revisionists when they try to finally set the record straight.

- The silence from the cowed Democrats has allowed the Bush* revisionists to now claim that they invaded Iraq because Saddam gassed the Kurds in 1988.

- It's time we face the truth: the corrupt Bush* government couldn't survive for a day without the direct and indirect help of the Democratic party. The survival of the party and Democracy depends on accepting this truth.

[Brucey]

1. I agree with most of what you have written,

but the last paragraph is absolutely not believable.

[Q]

2. Well...then offer a counterpoint...

...as to why it's 'unbelievable'.

[ikojo]

5. The last paragraph is proven true by the fact

that many Democrats, fearful of a so called patriotic backlash, voted to give Bush the authority to invade a sovereign nation with ZERO connection to the events of 9/11/01.

[emad]

16. I say it's believable allright, and it goes back to November 1963

Covering up the truth about JFK's assasination has been a bi-partisan issue for the last 40 years. Then there was that incident at Martha's Vineyard when Mary Jo Kopechne died, and Ted Kennedy towed the party line about JFK, and later RFK. But most of all, the fact that Lee Radziwill, Jackie O's sister, was never prosecuted for capital crimes, is what underpins the current democrat dilemma.

They did a deal with the republicans to save Jackie's face:

Lee's ex husband Prince Stanislaw Radziwill was Europe's No1 gangster, responsible for massive fraud, money laundering and masterminding of the P2 Lodge atrocities that were blamed on the IRA in mainland UK. The P2 Lodge robbed its own bank - Banco Ambrosiano - murdered "God's Banker" Roberto Calvi, and virtually bankrupted the Pope's slush fund , the Vatican Bank.

Lee was successfully sued in the civil courts to stop harassment and repeated murder attempts of those who had testified to the security services about her and her links to the fascist Sharp family, a scion of which - Sarah - is married to the top shrubman at the US embassy in London, William Stamps Farish III.

Farish was personal portfolio manager of Bush 1's 'blind trust' during his years as VP and then as pres. He has also been the crucial lynchpin between Bush 1 & 2, Bandar, Blair and Putin.

Farish's gamble is that those who successfully sued Lee in the civil courts, and who then successfully sued his wife Sarah's family, are not going to publish the lawsuit details. Nor details of the deals that republicans did to gag - but ultimately protect - Cardinals Ratzinger and Marcincus.

A whole new ball game opened up this year when the Italian courts ruled Calvi's "suicide" was murder.

Whichever democrat has the balls to purge this bi partisan 'deal' is the one that gets the vote for 2004. Anything else is merely continuation of a shameful coverup that has smeared democrats with the same collusion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. OK, I'll bite your bait

Which UK mainland atrocities were in fact committed by the P2 Lodge? Why did they do them? (The IRA said they did them as terrorism, to pressure the UK public into giving Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic. You'll need a reason for P2).

Where and when were Lee Radziwill and Sarah Farish sued? What links were there that the security services (of which country) wanted to know? If Sarah is married to an apparently respectable man, straight links as in "they're good friends" would be nothing to hide.
Don't just say "people too frightened to talk about it". Conspiracy theorists resort to that when they have no clue at all.

Why should all the powerful Democrats worry so much about embarrassing someone who's dead?

[rock]

3. Your right. They're all politicians

The democratic politicans are bad, the republicans are worse.

[Ergotron]

8. No real difference between Dems and Republicans

The only difference between the parties is who the politicians have to pander to in order to get reelected. Politicians of either party would stab their own mother in the back if it would gain them a couple more votes on election day.

As for the comment that Bush 'stole' the election and Gore 'won' I would like to point out that Gore did indeed win the popular vote. However, that is not how we elect presidents in this country. Bush won the electoral college votes, and that makes him the legitimate president, regardless of how we might feel about him personally he is legally, Constitutionally the President of the United States.

If one is not happy about that then one should do everything in ones power to insure that he is not reelected and the candidate of their choice is elected. It's really that simple.

[indepat]

10. Ergotron: do you really believe that at least 45,000 Floridians were not

illegally disenfranchised in the 2000 election and that the Supreme Court rendered a proper decision, i.e., that the election was not stolen and GWB was elected rather than installed by judicial coup?

[lcordero]

26. That's 94,000 people, not 45,000

[Q]

12. Bush* 'won' the EC votes by fraud and the SC stopping the legal recount...

...and it shocks me that you would describe this bullshit as a 'legally, Constitutionally' elected president. The SC broke the law of the land (Constitution) and illegally installed Bush* against the will of the people.

- Let's stop this revisionism in its tracks.

[BurtWorm]

19. It's very strange that you gloss over Florida

when Florida is central to Q's point--and to actual history--about Bush's illegitimacy. It's as though you are willing to accept--or ignore?--cheating and fraud as a legitimate means of electing a president.

[Q]

23. Indeed...the complicity began with the coverup of the 2000 selection...

...and we've gone downhill ever since. And all because the Dems didn't want to 'rock the boat'.

- If Democrats don't soon find their voice...we can not only expect another four years of Bush*...but the completion of the Neocon plan to transform America into a corporate state. (some call it fascism).

[hang a left]

35. need to check your facts there Ergo

[janekat]

54. Have you been brainwashed????

How can you possibly compare Bush and ANY Dem? Have you been living in a cave?

[bitchkitty]

4. Fear -

they fear the BFEE as much as we do, but they're not willing to stick their necks out.

Still, I'm hoping that's changing. I've been hopeful before and had my hopes dashed but they seem to be putting up a resistance now. Maybe I'm naive and it's only campaign rhetoric.

[Q]

6. My point is that the whole damn system is corrupt...

...and that...for some yet unknown reason...the Democratic party has allowed the far right Bush* government to pretty much operate unimpeded.

- Simply electing a Dem president won't change the system...which was set in place by Reagan in the 80s. Clinton was a good example: he was NOT allowed to govern this country and forward the Dem agenda. The next Dem president can expect the same as long as the Neocons have their 'shadow government' and own the free press.

- Democrats MUST stop enabling and helping the Bushies. It's been three years now and there's no sign that the party has a plan to stop the Bush* junta.

[Q]

9. Now we have posters saying that the Dem vote for the Iraqi resolution...

...didn't matter because the Bushies were going to invade anyway.

- This is yet another rationalization for the weakness of the Democratic party. The Dems could have taken a principled stand and refused to vote for preemptive invasion by slamming the public with the truth.

- But now that the truth is known and the Neocons are changing their story daily about the reasons to invade Iraq....and the Dems are still avoiding the truth like the plague.

- Our country is being destroyed and our infrastucture weakened because the loyal opposition refuses to stand up and tell the truth.

[hang a left]

38. Eisenhowers's famous "cautions" upon

departure from office.

"The conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American Experience. The total influence--economic, political, even spiritual--is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the Federal Government. In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist, and we must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.

[tedzbear]

51. Will Clark be the next Eisenhower????????

Well, he is only 4 star and Ike was 5, otherwise, he seems to follow Ike's lead when it comes to the MIC.
Funny that it takes military men to point out the inherent dangers in our nation's increasingly pro military industrial agenda.
I guess it takes one to know one.

Most of my Democrat friends are appalled by the growing right wing dimension to the Democratic Party. They reject the military industrial influences on our political process and are supporting left wing candidates like Dean and Clark.

I am undecided between Dean and Clark myself, but leaning more toward Clark.

I am sick and tired of the Fortune 500 pulling the strings in politics. Our nation has become their loyal servant while it ignores the voices of the people. The corporate lobbyists in Washington make the wheels turn, not the voters at the polls.

:kick:

[Q]

46. You're still 'hoping' after three years of Dem silence...

...and hiding in the shadows?

- I hope for the same thing...but I don't think it's going to happen without a little shove from the rank and file.

[Flying_Pig]

7. Degrees of separation?

To my great disamy, ....not many. You are spot on again "Q", but wonder what good it does, at this point (with an election coming), to lament the crimes committed by the Dems? Wouldn't it be better, to use your time and efforts, to find a way to change the Party, after the election is over?

My point is, there are enough "degrees of separation", to make it entirely worthwhile to support the Democrats over the Republicans, ...don't you agree? Having said that, it is gallingly apparent to any thinking person, that a level of corruption and complicity exists within the Democratic Party. After the election, I support going after those who have supported this corruption and complicity, with all of the fevor we are currently going after the Republicans.

[Q]

11. The Dems are enabling criminals...

...and the corruption of our government. This could be described as obstruction of justice.

- It may be 'galling'...but after three years of blatant Bush* corruption and malfeasance...we're no closer to getting to the truth or prosecuting the criminals.

- Perhaps someone could explain why the Dems simply gave in and turned their backs on the 2000 election fraud that cost them the WH? Or maybe someone could step up to the podium and explain why 9-11 hasn't been investigated?

- What good does it do to talk about it now? Because the truth matters. That it doesn't seem to matter to so many Americans foretells the downfall of Democracy.

[Nazgul35]

13. I suggest as Americans

we all look in the mirror! The reason the system sucks is because the American people have stopped participating in the process...too many of us would rather sit at home and watch TV than take a few hours to go canvassing, or send money to the party....the reason the party and politicians have turned to soft money is because we abandoned the party starting in the 1970s...

You wanna fix the system, then get up off your asses, educate the American people about what's going on, get involved in your local party organizations (treat it like the national guard one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer). The ad thing is, that out of a class of 80 students, three said that their parents had taken them to vote...so it is not surprising that the system is breaking down...

There are some real problem in this country, but to lay it all at the feet of the parties is just simplistic...there's plenty of blame to go around!

[Q]

15. But what about elections and voting?

- Don't we ELECT people to represent us in DC? You seem to be blaming the American people for our representatives not doing their job.

- It's the duty and responsibility for each and every member of congress...as a coequal branch of government...to provide checks and balances on the executive branch. In plain words...they're not doing their jobs.

- The Dem party has allowed Bush* to get away with so many lies without correcting them...that a majority of the public now believes those lies and think the Dems are lying when they try to set the record straight.

- It's more than just a 'problem' when America becomes a corporate state and the government lies to the American people as a matter of policy.

[indigo32]

43. Obviously at this point they can't do it alone

they need to hear from us...we need to get involved. They are just people like us, we ALL share the responsibility.

[F.Gordon]

14. Your republican friends would agree with you........

And so on November 6th Newt Gingrich decided to resign. Wait! WHAT WAS THAT AGAIN? NEWT GINGRICH resigned?! Excuse me for a second…… Let me get this straight………Bill Clinton gets blown by a 19 year old…… lies under oath………lies to the people…. lies again to a grand jury…..And Newt Gingrich resigns?

In the span of only a few months the Republican Party has seemingly managed to alienate the average middle class voter, antagonize their opponents out of their collective political slumber and made Bill Clinton even more sympathetic than ever.

http://www.fadetoblack.com/columns/takeittobase.htm

Brian Wilson says, "Sucks. Smoke...mirrors...accomplishes little or nothing worth talking about- another example of the gutless, spineless Republicans kowtowing to their love and devotion to media approval. C'mon boys and girls...where's your passion? You didn't come here just to avoid tv did you???"

http://www.townhall.com/chat/archive/bwilson.html

Is Bill Clinton
The Luckiest Man Alive?
With Jones Suit Dismissed, Starr Unlikely To Go After Slick Willie

Starr is now under tremendous pressure --- including from the spineless Republicans --- to conclude his investigation and present whatever evidence of crimes he may have. Given his milquetoast appearance and style, it is hard to conceive of Starr having the intestinal fortitude to really go after Clinton, especially given the continuing silence of the Republicans, who wouldn't know how to go for the political kill if it was presented to them on a platter.

Given the timidity of the Republicans, combined with the fact that they are nearly as corrupt on average as Clinton and the Democrats, it is unrealistic to expect much from Kenneth Starr. It appears that William Jefferson Clinton and the ruling class he serves will continue unimpeded on their merry way of permanently transforming America to fit the needs of the liberal/corporate world octopus.

http://www.anu.org/thenationalisttimesaprilninetyeight.html

The Democrats just always need something to whine about, don't they?
Helpful Info - spineless Republicans

These Representatives did not vote for Newt Gingrich and may have jeopardized his effectiveness to be Speaker of the House:

http://www.gargaro.com/newtmoney.html

One of my best friends frequently complains that the biggest problem the U.S. has today is "spineless Republicans". By this, he means the failure of the Republican majority in Congress to push for reform of Social Security, meaningful tax reform, and a serious effort to reduce or eliminate government spending on outmoded programs.

http://www.askgbc.com/paglink/v12n399.htm

A while back I heard one of the more spineless republicans saying they were going to have to do the "smart thing" rather than the "right thing" on Clinton. I was disgusted but realized that's what I was doing with Keyes. I just sent off for the 1996 election results, by precinct, for the entire state of Virginia. I'm going to be part of the campaign and work organizing Virginia! I've only been awake for a year or so but find the more I excercise my right to stand up for what is right the more I realize just what that is.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a365b268927bd.htm

The country will rue the day that this sham trial ended in a white wash. As more and more incidences arise, we will see how, with the help of the national press, the Democrats and some spineless Republicans in the Senate allowed this behavior to continue even after given information that would oust anyone else.

http://www.augustachronicle.com/opinion/021299.html

…and when you focus on a single issue. Say, like guns………

http://www.gunowners.org/svatb.htm

Feb. 02, 1999: Spineless Republicans Let You Down

This morally corrupt man sitting in the White House is fighting this non-entity simply for political power, and the spineless Republicans are letting him get away with it. That's almost enough to bolt the Republican Party for one with guts.
Anyone out there know where such a thing can be found?

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/archive/opinion/990908edit2.html

Book: Sellout: The Inside Story of President Clinton's Impeachment
Writer(s): David P. Schippers

This is written by the Democratic lawyer who was put in charge of the impeachment investigation. It's the story of how Democrats voted along party lines and spineless Republicans wouldn't stand up for principals. "A pox on both your houses!" might be an appropriate phrase. The politicians sold out the Constitution and allowed a sitting president to get away with lying under oath, abuse of power, witness tampering, voter manipulation, illegal campaign contributions, and even rape. If you thought you knew the details behind the impeachment (regardless of which side you were on), you don't. As this book shows, only a tiny fraction of the evidence was made public. You don't know anything. Some of the dramatic details unveiled in this book are things like how Clinton crony Janet Reno refused to release critical records so the investigation could proceed, and a witness having all four of her tires slashed and being stalked and threatened if she didn't sign a false affidavit. Of course it's tough connecting the President directly with such tactics, but, as the author shows, the coincidence of timing is too strong to be an accident.

This book reveals why I abhor politics: Senators swearing under oath to uphold the Constitution and investigate the President's crimes thoroughly, and then not a single one went and looked at the evidence! (The author opines that the Senators were afraid to actually see the evidence, because if they did, they would have found it difficult to acquit. By not seeing the evidence, they could pretend the charges were "just about sex.") Excellent, remarkable book, though very sad. Whatever you thought of impeachment, this book is a must read to anyone concerned with the future of this country. As Schippers pointed out in one of his presentations to Congress, if we don't convict a sitting president for lying under oath, for whatever the reason, it sets a new legal standard for future presidents -- they can get away with a lot more. I, for one, want my politicians accountable for their actions. Disgusting. The whole Senate ought to be impeached.


Then there’s the political dimension. The election will not be a referendum on Bill Clinton, Clinton declared. Not a referendum on Clinton, many Democrats reiterated. Then came the election, in which the spineless Republicans managed to lose five House seats. Oh, now it was indeed a referendum on Clinton. The refrain of the spinmeisters: “The electorate has spoken. They were angry at the persecution of Our Beloved Fuhrer Bill Clinton. Who cares if he’s raped some grade B movie actresses (the sluts were just asking for it), had people killed, bribed Webster Hubbell, or engaged in wholesale money laundering through the Teamsters? Forget it. The happy voters are contented with their stock portfolios, and annoyed with your messing with the magic formula.”

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/Eye.htm

Their low-class behavior is still with them as evidenced by their cheap, dirty campaigns of mud slinging, electioneering, eliciting aid from organized crime, and name-calling; directed at spineless Republicans who don’t know how to fight back. Republicans are acquiring their own brand of dispicability in attempting to gain some favorable recognition from the very media that hates them by emulating Democratic policies on a somewhat smaller and retarded scale. This strips America of both a party of opposition as well as any 'watchdog' press protection.

http://www.patriotist.com/tlarch/tl20010716.htm

Since the spineless Republicans in Congress are too witless to understand "They Are The Majority!" much less that they have a constitutional duty to impeach a corrupt president, it's left to me to suggest:

http://www.byrum.org/the.web.walker/humor/19980521.html

Trapped between the spineless Republicans and the morally bankrupt Democrats, apparently our society is going down the tube. Oh well, the economy is good.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/archive/98/december/9/speak.htm

A greater shame is the failure by the Republicans to bring forth a loud and clear case to the American media and public about the facts and themes presented here.
The debased state of this nation is exemplified when a hypocrite like Al Gore is given major media exposure on a topic that he should be barred from even speaking on, or—at the very least—castigated for.

The only explanation for the exposure and lack of stern criticism to Gore's speech is a naive and apathetic American public, a socialist media that never asks the hard questions, and spineless Republicans who refuse to expose the truth.

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:JjSobl1zdsUC:www.sentryoveramerica.com/issue21p3.htm+%22spineless+republicans%22+1993&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Q]

17. Republican friends?

- And herein lies part of the problem. Whenever someone points out the Dem complicity in the Bush* takeover of the US...they're accused of being a republican or worse.

- We'll never put America on the right course again if we can't even admit the truth to ourselves.

[F.Gordon]

24. You missed the point...........

Sorry I disturbed your sermon. Please continue..... Shall I pass the collection plate around now Reverend?

[Q]

25. No...I think YOU missed the point...

...and I find your condescending attitude typical of Democrats in denial.

- It's obvious that Neocons are the main problem and danger to our fragile democracy. But just as dangerous is that very little stands in their way.

[Nazgul35]

55. such as the American public's

duplicity in the collapse of their own system....which is a leap you seem unwilling to make...

I am willing to admit that some of our elected representatives come from the shallow end of the gene poll so to speak....but who put them there?

We cry about the evils of incumbency but return them to office at rates of 95% and higher.....we bitch about the evils of soft money eating like a cancer at our party but throw out the appeals for cash sent to us in the mail....we scream that the party leadership doesn't understand us but we coulnd't find the local party meeting place if we tatooed the map on our asses....

Yes the system is corrupt, yes they dont listen to use, yes soft money has allowed special interests to subvert the democratic system...

But the next time you're sitting in front of the TV watching West Wing on a wednesday night, instead of being down at the local library with the Democratic Party meeting...don't come bitching to me about the system being in shambles...get off you ass and do something about it....

We lost our own Democracy!!!!

[ArkDem]

18. We are living in.............

The Matrix.

[Q]

20. But there's no red and blue pills...just reality.

- Republicans don't have majorities in both houses AND the WH because they offer solutions or have a better plan for America. They're a majority because they lie, cheat and steal their way into office...and because Dems have let them do it.

[emad]

22. Well put!

( Don't think it's a coincidence that this is the name of the 'chambers' - law firm - that Blair's wife Cherie Booth belongs to. The next UK Director of Public Prosecutions is a partner in this firm...)

[camero]

21. You are right on

No body will pay any attention, but both the Dems and the repubs are members of the same plutocracy. With notable exceptions being Wellstone, Kucinich, and maybe Sharpton.

The rest come from the same class as the repubs.

My question is what is so bad about having a middle class president?
And I don't mean an Edwards kind of middle class.

Is having the rich on both sides of the aisle really helping us?
I don't think so.

[JohnyCanuck]

27. But is sure does help the rich. n/t

n/t

[camero]

28. That's about the only thing it's done.

Since the 70's wealth for the top 1% has risen dramatically while those in the bottom tier has fallen.

The middle class has had falling wages for 30 years now and amazingly have been hanging on, mostly by working harder and letting thier kids go to pot. Not good for the family. So much for "family values".

[Q]

29. The Dems should show their OUTRAGE...

...that a law firm friendly to the Bush* junta is defending the Saudis against the families of the victims of 9-11.

- Our 'representatives' should be screaming from the rooftops that the Bush* government is obstructing investigations into 9-11 and the Cheney energy task force giveaway.

- It's not an OPTION...it's their Constitutional duty.

[camero]

31. Yes, they should

But since they are in the same class pretty much, they will cover each others backs.

Think about it, they have dinner together, attend some of the same parties. Policy pretty much has not changed since the mid 70s. Less regulation of business and more free trade. About the time politicians became celebrities and vice versa.

No more Tip O' Neills here anymore.

[ShimokitaJer]

30. Both have agreed to preserve the two party system

The whole idea of gerrymandering assumes that the status quo is important to preserve. Citizens are encouraged to continue to vote for the same two parties even when the demographics and opinions of those citizens change. The last "new" party to attain the presidency was the Republican party, and the last time a third party won a single electoral vote was 1972... and that was from an elector who later defected from his party.

The idea that a nation as diverse as the US should come down to only two candidates, largeley decided by the moneyed interests, is appalling. The fact that we accept this as a given, calling third party candidates "spoilers," and insist that "Anybody but Bush" is an appropriate political position, shows how complicit we are.

[Q]

34. And our complicity has allowed the GOP to take the upper hand...

...on so many issues. For instance...Republicans are known as the 'national security' party because the left has done very little to counter that outrageous lie. For the same reasons...Bush* is known as an 'honest, straight-talking, God-fearing, fighter pilot and great CIC. Why? Because the Dems have allowed these lies to go unchallenged and become 'truth' to the American people.

- The Bushies are getting away with lying to the American people about the reasons for the Iraq invasion. Hell...now they're insisting that the 15 year old gassing of the Kurds is reason enough.

[ShimokitaJer]

40. What you say is true, but...

it is slightly different from what I was trying to say.

The fact that the Dems have allowed the GOP to co-opt the "patriotic American" image is a failure of the Democratic Party to sell their agenda to the American people.

I'm talking about a concentrated effort by both parties to exclude anyone outside the system. Independents like Anderson, Perot, Buchanan, and Nader are portrayed as wacky outsiders trying to disrupt the system rather than valid candidates with important issues to address. And it's getting worse: at least Perot was allowed to debate the "mainstream" candidates. Their treatment of Nader in 2000 shows that they are no longer interested in even maintaining the appearance of fairness.

We should be applauding defections like Jeffords' not only because they thin the ranks of the GOP, but because they reflect a willingness to vote according to one's actual opinions rather than according to the party line. Of course, that means we have to accept the possibility that defections from the Democratic Party (too Independent, not to Republican) also serve the public interest. If all RINO's and DINO's did the same, we'd have a far more honest system.

[Q]

41. I understand what you're saying...

...just elaborating.

- I'm also concerned about Democrats ignoring the many problems within their own party while laying blame for 'our' failures at the feet of third partties. Any logical look at the 2000 election will show that Nader had little to do with the outcome.

- I've been at DU since almost the beginning and still haven't seen the blame for the 2000 fiasco placed where it belongs: the Bush* cabal and their loyal cronies....from Harris to Jeb to the SC.

- It's time for a reality check. The first step in finding solutions is identifying the problems.

[Mari333]

32. Add the MEDIA onto that list that sold out the US public

They kowtowed to everything and every corporate shill . No real investigations, nothing but BFEE cheerleading.
The only reason we know anything MORE then the US media is because we have access to the Internet. When I was a kid, in the 50s, people didnt have much access to other news, but at least there were SOME actual journalists out there. see: Walter Cronkite
Now its all commercialized talking heads and fluffy cowering editors who are afraid of the BFEE.

[Q]

37. Thanks...I didn't intentionally leave out the media...

...but it's a very important factor in that it gives the pliant Dems an excuse not to do anything. That is...if the media doesn't report it...the Dems don't have to do anything about it.

- The Democratic party has been aware for decades that the Neocons were buying up the media at an amazing rate. They knew it in the 90s when they relentlessly attacked Clinton after allowing Reagan/Bush to get away with horrible crimes against our country.

- The point is that we...all of us...saw this coming and did nothing about it.

[Cocoa]

33. Dems just saved temporarily saved overtime for workers

back in the real world, they passed the Harkin amendment with the help of six republicans and without the help of Zell Miller.

But it's not over...

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16774

Lobbying furiously against the Harkin amendment were the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America, the National Federation of Independent Business, and similar organizations. They contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to elect George W. Bush. The proposed regulations are payback.

For once, a public outpouring – your voice – overcame Big Business. The AFL-CIO e-activists alone generated more than 180,000 faxes and e-mails. Phone calls and letters poured into the Capitol. The impact was profound. In addition to every Democratic Senator except Miller, six Republican Senators – Campbell, Chafee, Murkowski, Snowe, Specter, and Stevens – resisted White House and business pressure.

This campaign is far from over. On July 10, the House of Representatives voted 213-210 against a measure like the Harkin amendment. The conflict means representatives from the two chambers will have to hash out a common position. Please tell your Representative to vote to instruct the House conferees to agree to the Harkin amendment.

[Q]

39. And don't forget about the upcoming vote for new nuclear weapons...

...get in touch with your representatives or this will be one more issue swept under the rug.

[Cocoa]

42. Senate defies Bush

overturns FCC ruling. :toast:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=117219

[Solomon]

44. Here I come again!

I'll just keep on saying it and saying it until the hardheads finally get it.

The reason democrats are pathetic is that they are following the same general agenda as the republican party. Worldwide white supremacy. The only difference being that democrats want a "kindler, gentler" form of white supremacy, and republicans just don't give a fuck.

[Q]

45. Hardcore reality...

...and variations on a theme.

- Excuse me...but I have to laugh when posters like Cocoa try to cover for the massive Democratic failures by posting tidbits about the very minor things Dems have done to impede the Neocons progress. It amounts to one step forward...ten steps backwards.

- I'm having a difficult time determining what's more insulting to our sensibilities...the weak-kneed, enabling Democrats or the faithful who make excuses for them.

[Solomon]

47. My sentiments exactly

The democratic party needs a whole new paradigm. There's no room for them to compete on the lets kick some ass boat.

We are too afraid of losing white voters to really break out. I'm in total agreement with you that the whole dang system is corrupt. Democrats engage in business deals with republicans and are susceptible to black mail as well. In fact, it's my belief that one cannot get into the political game on a high level unless one is "blackmailable". This insures that the "system" can never be broken from the inside.

Examples are people like Clarence Thomas. It wasn't just that his views put him into office - rather he was imminently blackmailable which ensures what his views would be.

All democrats, except the small guys, are either threatened and/or blackmailed.

[Cocoa]

50. hardcore fantasy

what you call "minor" actually affects people's lives.

The "impeding the neocons" thing is really just overblown. Yes there is such a thing as a necon, and yes, they are dangerous, but to say that "impeding the neocons" takes precedence over things like overtime, health care, judicial appointments and the like, is just silly.

Do you even know what a neocon is? On another thread you called Bob Barr a "hardcore neocon." If he's a necon at all, he's a marginal one or a maverick one. Some might even say he's an anti-neocon. But "hardocre neocon" makes me wonder if you even know what you're talking about.

Same goes for your support of Al Gore for president, while Kucinich and Sharpton are in the race. Makes me wonder if you understand what you're talking about when you claim to support progressive politics.

[Q]

52. Yes...compared to war and the destruction of our social infrastructure...

...the meager attempts by Democrats to work on safe issues and avoid confrontations with the powerful Bush* machine is obvious.

- Allow me to ask: what good is healthcare and overtime when no one has a friggin job or sitting in jail for smoking pot? And you're fooling yourself on the 'judicial appointments' rant...Bush* and his cronies have set up the government they've always wanted...including a justice department operated by a religious zealot.

- Yes...I know what a 'neoconservative' is...and Bob Barr fits the bill. You're either new to politics or intentionally being obtuse about his history. He was one of the main voices pushing for Clinton's impeachment on false charges. He's a crazy, white supremist idiot that's now trying to cover his bad intentions by associating with 'liberals'. Barr is as 'hardcore' as they come. Perhaps a bit more research will help you?

- I don't support 'progressive' politics. I support liberal politics. Progressive has become a codeword for concession and RWing Democrats who want to forget about the painful past of having to fight for freedom.

[Cocoa]

57. overtime and employment

If employers don't have to pay overtime, then instead of hiring more people to meet increased production, they will just overwork their existing workers. More employment in turn leads to more people covered by health care insurance.

Yes, the judicial appointments are absolutely crucial. The most real-world opposition to John Ashcroft have been the federal courts that have ruled against him.

"Neocon" is not identical to "republican" as you seem to believe. The impeachment was a republican affair. Bob Barr and Henry Hyde are republicans, but they're not neocons. Neocons for example don't care about abortion.

Here's what your neocon friend Barr says about the neocons, in an article named "the Brave new world of the neocons"

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2003-08-07/flipside.html

[Q]

59. Response:

- This is a strawman argument. Many employers ( I know of more than a few) refuse to pay overtime NOW. They offer time off instead. If that doesn't work for them...they hire 'temp' employees that work for no benefits at all. The American worker has been getting screwed since the 80s with the weakening of collective bargaining. Instead of doing the right thing and paying a living wage...corporations are simply moving overseas to escape US environmental regulations and decent wages that cut into their obscene profits.

- Ashcroft got his Patriot Act without much debate...many representatives not bothering to read it before they signed on to the blind, 'patriotic' effort to stiffle dissent and govern by intimidation and fear.

- The impeachment was indeed a Republican affair...with many Dems helping to make a blowjob an impeachable offense.

- Are you kidding about Neocons and abortion? Perhaps it's YOU that doesn't understand what a Neocon is all about? And frankly...I could care less about what Barr has to say NOW. That's just sour grapes because he was booted out of the clubhouse when he lost power.

- You can defend Barr all day long...but you won't convince those of us who saw what he did to our country and democracy.

[Cocoa]

62. at least two Dem candidates are anti-NAFTA

Gephardt led the fight against NAFTA, which your boy Gore was behind all the way. If you care so much about trade, why do you support Gore? Gephardt and Kucinich would seem a more logical choice for someone so concerned as you about jobs going overseas. Plus there's the fact that they're running.

Defending Barr? I was illustrating that your understanding of the term you used was questionable. Imo, there is no one "boogeyman" that the dems must defeat before they do anything else.

I'm just taking issue with your "Star Wars" view of politics, that's all.

[uptohere]

48. you're just realizing this ?

and you had better start looking a lot farther back. Early 1800's say...

[janekat]

49. Yes - but the Democrats are at least OUR s.o.b.'s

and are acting MUCH more for OUR benefit than the Pubs are. In my opinion the are MUCH more in our corner than Ralph Nader is. Ralph Nader has his OWN agenda.

[scarletwoman]

53. It's really very simple...

They ALL, Dems and Repugs alike -- with just a few notable exceptions -- serve the OVERCLASS. And this has been true for far longer than the reign of the bush* junta, this has pretty much been the case since the founding of this Republic.

The American Revolution is an unfinished business. Sure, the colonial powers were sent packing, but they were sent packing by the very same sort of moneyed interests, who wanted control of the pie for themselves. The masses have ALWAYS been duped into serving the aristocracy, exchanging one group for another changed nothing essential about the system itself.

True populists have always been few and far between. The vast majority of those who make up our government are those who have been anointed by the ownership class, who can be counted on to protect the interests and the privileges of the powerful. Those who attempt to defy these interests either don't last long, or are relegated to toiling away in relative obscurity and ineffectualness. This holds true in the mass media as well, of course -- the interests and the privileges of the ownership class are served above all else.

Part of this service is to assure that no great waves occur which might upset the status quo. To challenge the myth of "Truth, Justice and the American Way" by actually promoting Truth and Justice is a totally unacceptable threat to the ruling powers, whom BOTH parties serve.

That is why the Democrats allow the excesses of the bush* junta to go largely unchallenged in any fundamentally meaningful way. They are united in upholding the system for the preservation of privilege and power for the Overclass. A Dem in the White House in 2005 will not change that.

We have a revolution to finish -- don't expect ANYONE within the System to do anything but oppose our efforts.

sw

[Q]

56. What I find appalling is that too many Democrats are making excuses...

...for the party's appeasement of the transparent Bushie corruption and transformation of our country into something akin to a banana republic.

- If the Dem party wanted investigations into 9-11...they would have insisted upon it by now. If they wanted corporate criminals who bilked millions from investments and retirement accounts to go to jail...they would have acted by now instead of helping to cover it up. If they cared about election fraud and Democracy...they wouldn't have told us to 'move on' after 2000.

- The Dem enablers get away with it because they're enabled by the rank and file of the party who think winning is more important than the survivial of democracy.

[gully]

61. I'll be back tomorrow to counter your beautiful statment.

The Dems have done as you suggest they should, problem is the Republicans are fighting them!

Regarding the election Al Gore couldn't pursue it in the matter you suggest due to time constraints. I'll post some links tomorrow to educate those willing to open their minds.

I'm glad you brought this up however, as these misconceptions are so pervasive.

My PC time is exhausted and motherhood calls. Until tomorrow :hi:

[hang a left]

58. wow! beautifully articulated!

And so so true.

[Cocoa]

60. simplistic, imo, is a better word

My dem Congressman doesn't work for the overclass, exactly the contrary.

But if you look on his website or read his mailers, you won't see him talking in revolutionary terms. He did support Conyers work to impeach Bush, but he's not exclusively or even significantly focussed on that.

http://www.house.gov/davis/legislation.htm

Much more important to the actual U.S. citizens he represents are things such as the needs of ex-offenders returning to society. "Stopping the neocons" probably doesn't matter as much to these people as it does to some people at DU.

It doesn't help that some people that want to "stop the neocons" don't even know what a neocon is, other than a boogey-man.

And even though they don't fully understand what this boogey-man is, it takes precedent over real things that the actual Dems are working on? I tend to disagree.

[Q]

63. Is this really the best you can do? Deny that anyone but yourself...

...understands what a 'Neocon' is all about?

- The 'boogey-men' are those who installed GWB* in office. They're the ones who prefer a plutocracy instead of a democracy. They rushed this nation to war on false pretenses. They want to abolish abortion and free speech and privatize social services and public education.

- The 'real thing' IS the danger the 'neocons' present to our democracy and very way of life. It's disgusting the way you're trying to make them sound innocent or just a temporary gadfly on American politics. They have ingrained themselves in our government and it's going to take the truth and a crowbar to pry them out.

- It's telling that you don't seem to have an answer as to why the Dem party (leadership) has done NOTHING about election fraud, civil rights violations, corporate and government corruption or finding the answers to why the Bushies failed the nation on 9-11.

[Cocoa]

64. I'm glad rep. Davis is NOT fighting the enemy you describe

Because your enemy is imaginary. Davis has real work to do.

[Q]

65. From a thread I started that won't be read by most:

Maureen Farrell at BuzzFlash.com

September 16, 2003
When Will Americans Realize They’ve Been Had?

by Maureen Farrell

Excerpts:

It’s been nearly three years now, and almost as many since we were told to just "get over it." And honestly, without Sept. 11 inconsistencies or Bush's pre-planned wars or assaults on civil liberties or the hubris and arrogance and embarrassing treatment of long-held allies, many of us would have accepted the Supreme Court’s decision and learned to live with the temporary hand we’d been dealt. Instead, however, the red flags raised three years ago foretold more ominous developments. The 2000 election wasn't merely a Constitutional crisis, it was an all-American coup designed to change the United States forever. And let's not delude ourselves. While Bill Clinton's impeachment was a prequel to this takeover, voting machine snafus, the California recall and Texas redistricting are all part of a plan to usurp democracy yet again.

Even before Sept. 11, the Florida fiasco was a wake-up call. If the election had not unraveled the way it did, many of us would have never comprehended the gravity of the situation. We would have thought of Clinton’s impeachment as just insane partisan politics and would most likely not have discovered how, in the wee hours of that Wednesday morning, Jeb assured George that Florida was in the bag. "Let me explain something," Al Gore reportedly said. "Your younger brother is not the ultimate authority on this." But alas, America’s preferred candidate didn't realize that Katherine Harris had hired Database Technologies to scrub 90,000 folks from Florida’s voter rolls.

Of course, this is what used to be known as crazy talk, but it’s becoming increasingly clear that the reality presented to us by the media and government officials is far removed from reality. Pundits repeatedly invoke the term "conspiracy theory" to rebuff truths that bubble to the surface, but just to make things clear: Talk of the Illuminati enslaving humanity in some sort of Satanic master plan is an example of conspiracy theory. Saying that the Bush gang manipulated the election, fumbled the ball on 911 < LINK > and waged a war that’s been planned since 1992 is merely stating well-documented and easily researched facts.

But, of course, that’s just the introduction to this story. We’re also in the throes of a radical movement to alter America as we know it. Ironically, those who defend and depict the war as a mission to protect our way of life are victims of the cruelest abuse of patriotism and trust. Not only did Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz and the other folks at the Project for a New American Century hijack foreign policy, but, as early as 2000, drafted a decidedly un-American wish list -- and George Bush delivered. Preventative war and a permanent military presence in Iraq? No problem. Multiple wars on multiple fronts? They got it. A heftier defense budget? Their wish was Bush’s command. The Pearl Harbor type attack they deemed necessary for these changes occurred on Sept. 11, with subsequent secret detentions, a shadow bunker government, and draconian legislation making a mockery of the Land of the Free. - http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/03/09/16.html

[hang a left]

66. don't get into it with her

she trips.

[scarletwoman]

67. To begin with, I said NOTHING about "neocons" in my post.

Therefore, you have offered nothing but a strawman argument.

In any case, I'll offer some further clarification of the point I was attempting to make.

The "real things" that individual Dems work on, still fall within the purview of the System -- that is, they do not fundamentally challenge the status quo of the institutions of government which are set up to preserve the powers and privileges of the Ownership class.

On the Democratic side, the methods by which these powers and privileges are preserved involve providing enough comfort to the masses to allay any concerted effort to throw off their chains.

On the Republican side, they have largely ceased to bother with any such niceties and have boldly claimed the supremacy of power for its own sake -- i.e. might makes right. They appeal to the masses at the lowest emotive levels -- gut reflexes like fear, distrust and hatred of "the other", and survival of the fittest (social darwinism) -- in order to exert control. This sort of control results in the masses acquiescing in their own oppression, that is, voting against their own interests (like fair wages, universal health care and such).

With either method, the result is the same. The masses are prevented from mounting any serious challenge to the System itself.

I'll take the example you offered of Congressman Davis' "The Public Safety Ex-Offender Self Sufficiency Act":

One of the realities of America is that our prisons are filled to the hilt with individuals -- more than 2 million of them. While we are only 5 percent of the world's population, we have 25 percent of the world's prison population. More than four and a half million men and women are on some form of probation or parole.

In August of 2003, the Department of Justice released the first ever study to measure the prevalence of prison time among American adults. The report revealed that a record 2.1 million people were in federal, state or local custody at the end of 2002. Between 1974 and 2001, the number of current and former inmates rose by 3.8 million, the study found.

Of those, 2.7 million were former inmates. The number of people sent to prison for the first time tripled from 1974 to 2001 mostly as a result of the "war on drugs" and tough sentences for non-violent drug offenses.

Based on the study it is projected that about 11.3 percent of men and 1.8 percent of women born in 2001 will go to prison during their lifetimes. For Black males, that translates into a one in three chance of doing time, compared with one in six for Hispanic males and one in 17 for White males.

The Justice Department has predicted that 630,000 individuals are going to be released from prison this year. About 30,000 of them will be in Illinois. Just 6 of Chicago's 77 communities—Austin, Humboldt Park, North Lawndale, Englewood, West Englewood, and East Garfield Park (all six of these communities are part of the 7th Congressional District!)—accounted for 34 percent of prisoners returning to Chicago in 2001.

Unfortunately, as a nation, we have not prepared for these individuals as they come back to neighborhoods and communities. We must take a serious look at our correctional system and a serious look at what it takes to reform, to rehabilitate and to prepare people for reentry into normal society once they are released from correctional facilities and institutions.

Ex-offenders often lack the job experience, skills and support services to help them return to main-stream civilian life. In Illinois some 57 job titles are denied to ex-offenders for life. Ex-offenders convicted of drug offenses after 1996 are unable to receive Pell Grants. An estimated 30% - 50% of urban parolees are homeless.

There is a shortage of vocational, educational and substance abuse programs in prison. According to the sentencing project, more than 100,000 prisoners are being released each year without any form of community correctional supervision.

What happens to a man or woman who cannot find an employer willing to give them a second chance, is refused TANF benefits, cannot receive subsidized housing, educational or medical assistance? We have seen over and over again that they return to prison. An estimated 60% re-offend within 18 months of release from supervision. Neighborhoods across the nation are absorbing the economic and social cost of reintegrating hundreds of thousands of ex -offenders back into society each year. It is time to break that cycle.

NOWHERE in that preamble is there any challenge to the System that imprisoned these people in the first place!

NOWHERE is there any questioning of the "War on Drugs" or the machinery of the whole prison-industrial complex that incarcerates a far greater percentage of our population than even China!

THIS is exactly how the System of power and privileges for the Overclass is protected by Democrats -- by tweaking the resulting injustices and inequities just enough to make it sufficiently palatable to the masses so that they will continue to acquiesce to their own disenfranchisement and oppression by the Overclass.

Things are the way they are NOT because there are no alternatives, but because those whose interests are served by things BEING as they are do everything in their power to prevent alternatives from being brought to the consciousness of the masses.

sw

[chadm]

68. I agree. They are two divisions of the same party...

with the same agenda (and it isn't ours).

[scarletwoman]

69. Yup, it's the party of the Overclass

(my way of kicking this back up...)

sw

[MadHound]

70. I hear you bro, and have been preaching this for awhile

But nobody really wants to listen. If you bring up the Democratic complicity in all of these matters and more, you are accused of being a 'Pug or worse. But both parties are corrupted, both are working for the same corporate masters(don't believe me, go do some research into the campaign financing of both parties), and both are putting the interests of these corporations ahead of the people.

The only logical solution I can see is working with and for a party that is progressive and doesn't take corporate cash. For me(and more people all of the time) that party is the Greens.

[Resistance Is Futile]

71. The biggest failure

The biggest failure was not challenging the rise of hate radio in the early 1990s. The enemy has had a massive advantage ever since as the uncontested medium of hate radio has allowed them to set the national agenda by passing off their campaign propaganda as news.

No opposition group is going to be able to make any headway against the ruling party without first developing some means to counter the ruling party's propaganda aparatus.