So why was Clark fired?????

[Punkingal]

Any ideas? I heard him say on Tim Russert that he would like to know. I wonder if the Bushitas will come up with something about that to use against him?

[Caution]

1. As far as i can tell

Clark retired, he wasn't fired. They will dig up dirt (and in fact have already begun doing so). No candidate is bullet-proof and I'm sure there will be juicy info on clark thrown to the media over the coming months. I just hope that the democrat camp isn't as timid this time around.

[StopTheMorans]

2. just FYI

you misspoke in your last sentence. "Democrat" camp is wrong, "Democratic" camp is right. A "Democrat" is a member of the "Democratic" party; hence, you cannot have a "Democrat" primary or a "Democrat" camp. It's "Democratic". Sorry, that's one that gets under my skin, a lot of wingnuts have been misusing it intentionally lately, and I'd hate to start seeing people on our side accept it:)

[Raenelle]

15. When I hear Democrat used as an adjective, I assume it's a

Repuklicon speaking. Of course, there must be assumptions, but it works as a rule of thumb.

[kclown]

38. They've been doing that for fifteen years

Democrat Party sounds evil.  Democratic Party is FDR's party.

[LuLu550]

58. I agree...

Right wingers spit it out...
"Democrat president..." like it is vulgar.
Thanks for addressing one of my pet peeves!

[diplomats]

3. I read that the Pentagon didn't like him

That's not a liability in my book. But I'n sure a lot will be thrown at him. That's why I'm glad he has Clinton and Gore campaign people, because they're experienced.

[bryant69]

5. Well, that will be a negative

I mean part of his appeal is that he is the guy we got who can protect the United States from the Terrorists; if he is painted as anti-military; well, that would hurt him a bit.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure he's got lots of military support as well.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[lanlady]

43. the brass hate Rummie even more

I'm sure Clark stepped on a lot of toes, although he's no George Patton. There are loads of bloated egos at the Pentagon. But whatever Clark had to do to get his stars, it's nothing compared to the rabid loathing of Rumsfeld and his minions.

[wuushew]

4. Googling Wesley Clark + fired brings up Freerepublic as first hit

So, NATO continued with a limp air campaign that was inadequate to stopping Milosevic's ethnic-cleansing campaign, that appalled other members of the military brass who thought Clark had helped drag the U.S. into a near-fiasco, and that led to such ill-feeling toward Clark in the Pentagon that he was fired at war's end, launching his career as a TV pundit.


http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry082603.asp

[LoneStarLiberal]

6. Politics and the Military Don't Mix

From everything I've read about General Clark and the end of his military career, he was pushed to retire which we may consider a firing. Clark was always a very political person as he scaled the military hierarchy. Being political in the military is a lightning rod for negative attention because the military is geared to follow the orders of the Commander in Chief, not think about them and then decide to follow what they want to and ignore what they do not want to follow.

Being "political" in the upper ranks of the military usually unnerves the politicians in charge. There is ample evidence that General Clark unnerved Secretary Cohen, other members of the Cabinet, and possibly even President Clinton. Why? Only these people really know for certain, but I would consider it a strong vote of confidence in General Clark here and now if the Clintons support his candidacy, which they seem to at this point.

[TAH6988]

8. He wasn't really pushed to retire as much as he was told his services

were no longer required. His replacement as SACEUR/CINCUSEUCOM was announced as AF General Joe Ralston; happened a year earlier than normal, so in effect, Clark was fired. It was Clark's decison to retire, but, of course, there was really nothing else he could do. Cohen was not happy with the way Clark ran the war in Kosovo. Read Clark's book "Waging Modern War;" it gives you good insight as to the relationship Clark had with the SECDEF and the JCS.

[uptohere]

17. Colin Powell was also very political in the Pentagon

didn't seem to hurt him did it.

Clark was a star and fizzled. Powell was a star and stayed one.

[Cappurr]

7. From What I know in Sidney Blumenthal's book

The war in Kosovo (limited to bombing) was not going well. Clark wanted to Add Apache helicopters the Pentagon didn't.

"Clark himself was a controversal commander. His assets were regarded within the Pentagon as his liabilities. He was decisive, highly intelligent, a West Point graduate, a Rhodes cholar, but not one of the boys. He had climed too far too fast; was perceived as being political (though he was not especially close to Clinton despite coming from Arkansas and having een a Rhodes scholar); and was suspected of operating out of channels (with the British)."


From Wesley Clarks book: The air campaign began with enough forces to punish the Serbs but it lacked the mass and capabilities needed to halt the ethnic cleansing....Throughout the campaign, and especially as it contemplated ground intervention, the Pentagon was distracted by its preference for focusing on Northeast Asia and the Persian Gulf, despite the fact that the only real conflict was in Europe."

Ultimately, ground troops were approved with our allies. Diplomatic efforts continued despite the buildup of troops. Milosovec finally crumbled


From Sidney Blumenthal:

"At the Pentagon a graceless note was struck in July, however, when General Clark was summarily retired as SACEUR. This was a personal slap at him for having insisted on ground troops against the Pentagon's recommendation and for his sharpness in pursuing that strategy. And the White House had been snookered without realizing it when it had earlier agreed to what Berger and others thought was a routine replacement process at SACEUR. But if it was held against Clark that he was a political general it was a mistaken impression. Clark had in fact put his strategic concerns above politics and above his career."

When Clinton found out he was furious but there was nothing he could do. Clark was literally called in the middle of the night and fired. Clinton awarded Clark the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the British gave him an honorary knighthood. But the Pentagon left a bad taste in his mouth.

ON EDIT: The quotes are directly from "The Clinton Wars" or Wesly Clark's book.

Bottom line here is that the ground troops WERE needed. That is what ended the war and brought Milosvich down. And Clark stood up to the brass that wanted to limit the war to bombing and he got stoned for it. :shrug:

[ronzo]

10. Thanks for putting this together.

Good ammo!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. And the war ended 4 days after troops were put on the ground IIRC

I m going off of memory but it was in the air something like 70 days and on the ground less than a week.

[Dubyawatchers]

9. Good Question

I like "The Nation" mag and they give a possible and plausible reason.

Wesley Clark's 'High Noon'
http://www.thenation.com/edcut/index.mhtml?bid=7

[Cappurr]

12. Hmmmm

You see how you can get different angles from different (reliable) sources. I still think that the bottom line is Clark would not play nice with the Pentagon brass and man that is a HUGE sin in their world. You saw what happened to Zinni when he testified as to how many troops would be needed. The truth doesn't matter to these guys...only the chain of command and towing the line. For a General to refuse to do that takes guts.

[TAH6988]

14. I don't recall what happened to Zinni

He was already retired at the time, wasn't he?

[Cappurr]

19. No

He was not retired when he testified. I believe he was planning retirement when he testified. But what I do know for sure is that he was drubbed soundly by everyone from Rumsfeld to Wolfowitz for giving unrealistic estimates. He was mocked all over TV. And of course, he was right. :shrug:

[TAH6988]

21. Are you referring to Shinsiki?

and not Zinni? Zinni was CENTCOM commander before Franks and retired well before this war.

[Cappurr]

27. Oooops. My bad

You are right, of course. :hi:

[TAH6988]

28. Easy to get names confused

I do it all the time!

[moondust]

42. The ground troops in Kosovo issue

was no doubt a source of friction between Clark and the politicians. As I remember it the politicians ruled out the use of ground troops from the beginning and most everybody knew that was a strategic mistake. Clark was publicly at odds with them on this and they probably wished he would just shut up about it.

[Pastiche423]

11. As the military aide to Richard Holbrooke

during the 1995 Dayton Peace Accords, Gen. Wesley Clark acquired
firsthand knowledge of Slobodan Milosevic's manner and methods. Named NATO Supreme Allied Commander in 1997, Clark hoped to use this knowledge to snuff out the escalating conflict in Kosovo.

But when Milosevic did not fold quickly after NATO began bombing on March 24, Clark started to push the alliance to begin ground troop planning and to deploy Apache helicopters to increase the pressure
on Belgrade.

While such moves ultimately may have helped end the war, they also alienated Clark from more reticent commanders back at the Pentagon ­ and may have contributed to the Clinton Administration's decision after the war to replace Clark several months before his NATO term ran out.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/interviews/

[AP]

16. According to The Clinton Wars, because he was successful

Sid Blumenthal writes about this. The Republicans didn't want Kosovo to be a victory for Clinton. They pulled some strings and had Clark fired as punishment for being competent. Clinton was furious.

(oops, I should read all the other posts before I post my comments...)

[TAH6988]

18. How could the repukes

have a General "fired" when the President didn't want him fired?

[Cappurr]

20. The repukes didn't have him fired...

It came from the pentagon. Read my quotes above from Blumenthal's book.

[TAH6988]

22. And how does the Pentagon

Fire a General the president wants in place?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Separate Chains of Command

Presidents don't just interfere with military heirarchy. It was Cohen's call, and he made the petty one.

DTH

[TAH6988]

26. No, it's the same chain of command

last time I checked, the President was Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces and.

If what you said was true, Truman could/would not have fired MacArthur

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. For the Very Top, Yes

But I reiterate, Presidents don't typically interfere in decisions like these.

DTH

[TAH6988]

31. If Clinton had wanted Clark to

remain, SACEUR, easily the second highest job in the uniformed military, he would have remained SACEUR. Clinton had to at least agree to the move.

[Cappurr]

32. Here is the answer from Blumentha;'s book:

"And the White House had been snookered without realizing it when it had earlier agreed to what Berger and others thought was a routine replacement process at SACEUR"

So apparantly orders were approved that the WH thought were "routine" when in fact the guy was forced out. And it was done in the middle of the night AFTER the Washington Post had been informed. So it was in the news by the time Clinton woke up.

[TAH6988]

33. So are you saying the WHite House didn't

know? BS. The President nominates SACEUR, NOT the SECDEF. If Clinton was snookered, shame on Blumenthal and all the others. Sandy Berger SURELY knew better.

[RobinA]

40. See,

the one thing I never got about this event is that one minute Clinton was the smartest guy in the room, and the next minute he's being "snookered," as in Clark firing and Rich pardon.

I like Clinton a lot, but I find it hard to believe a guy with his demonstrated political instincts gets "snookered" into making this highly political and highly visible move. And involving the military for God's sake, the guys who put the "p" in "political." I think firing Clark was a lowdown move by Clinton made for some reasons that have not come out at this point. It's disingenuous of his friends to claim he's been "snookered" whenever he does something stupid.

[Cappurr]

45. Well....Wesley Clark himself doesn't put any blame or burden on Clinton

And I can certainly see how at the end of the Kosovo war, when a whole bunch of orders and duty changes are being produced and signed, that Clinton didn't realize the end result was to remove Clark. :shrug:

[TAH6988]

46. A "whole bunch of orders and duty changes"

And you'd miss the second most important position in the US military? I don't think so..

[Cappurr]

47. Look....you can be a cynical as you want

I sure am a lot of the time. I just happen to believe what Blumenthal and Clark said about it. It also fits with what Cohn said. If Clinton knew and ignored it, he is a wimp. But he did give the guy the Medal of Freedom and has spoken highly of him ever since, just as Clark speaks highly of Clinton.

[TAH6988]

49. Clark said he didn't KNOW

why his command was ended early. Clinton was too smart and too savvy to let Cohen "fire" Clark if Clinton did not agree OR if CLinton did not care. To say that the "pentagon" wanted Clark gone is too simplistic.

[Pepperbelly]

59. read the Clinton Wars rather than going on ...

your psychic knowlege or wherever it is that you get you inside knowlege.

[AP]

34. It was a NATO command, not a US Armed Forces command.

No?

[TAH6988]

35. Not exactly

The Commander US European Command is dual-hatted as SACEUR. SACEUR is ALWAYS the US General who heads USEUCOM.

[TAH6988]

36. Not exactly

The Commander US European Command is dual-hatted as SACEUR. SACEUR is ALWAYS the US General who heads USEUCOM.

[HereSince1628]

23. Is it true that he ordered British troops to confront Russian troops

and the British commander refused on the grounds that it could escalate into WW3?

I don't know if it is true, but if it is, creating that sort of situation would provide the rope that competitors and political enemies in the pentagon may have used to hang him.

[Cappurr]

25. Yes

I believe that is true. I think Clark addresses it in his book. I don't know all the details.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Rebuttals on Pristina

Stirling Newberry's double-barreled response:

http://www.theclarksphere.com/archives/000347.html#000347

Here is Eric Tam's moderate response:

http://antidotal.blogspot.com/2003_09_14_antidotal_archive.html#106364517252030920

DTH

[HereSince1628]

37. I guess these confirm there was a very high level flap for Clark

and the folks back in DC over the airport.

Maybe these rebuttals are adequate to put the issue to rest.

My point is that high profile, high level flaps often come with high profile consequences, that particular dust-up could have got him removed just to placate the nations involved.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

39. My Take Is That He Was Removed for Personality Conflict Reasons

SecDef Cohen, a Republican, didn't like how Clark went to the media about ground troops in Kosovo. The two men also had general personality conflicts. So this was Cohen's petty way of getting back at Clark.

Clark was actually very popular among the NATO nations, he won a raftload of medals from them.

DTH

[leetrisck]

41. "War in a Time of Peace"

by David Halberstram covers all of this very well. Covers many of the area discussed on this thread. General Shaliskavali??? is the one who pulled Clark along ahead of the others - had a lot of faith and trust in him.

[TAH6988]

44. Won? Was he presented

any medal that any other SACEUR was not? I'm asking, because I really don't know.

[Cappurr]

48. The Presidential Medal of Freedom

and he was made a knight in Great Britain.

[TAH6988]

50. I was responding to this...

"Clark was actually very popular among the NATO nations, he won a raftload of medals from them."

You needed to read what I was replying to.

[SidDithers]

53. Another list, a bit more complete

From his bio at American Friends of the Czech Republic website
http://www.afocr.org/directors/clark.htm


Among his military decorations are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal (five awards), Distinguished Service Medal (two awards), Silver Star, Legion of Merit (four awards), Bronze Star Medal (two awards), Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Medal (two awards) and the Army Commendation Medal (two awards), NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to Kosovo, NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia.

His Foreign awards include the Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom); Commander of the Legion of Honor (France); Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany; Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands); Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy; Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal); The Commander’s Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland; Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain); The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium); Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic); Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic; Commander’s Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia; Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria); Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defence of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia); First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania); Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia); The Skandeberg Medal (Albania); Order of Merit of Morocco; Order of Merit of Argentina; The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia) and the Military Service Cross of Canada.

Looks like a raftload to me.

Sid

[Cappurr]

55. Whew....

And how many does shrub have? Do you think he might have got a merit badge for making a latrine in the cub scouts? :evilgrin:

[TAH6988]

57. lol n/t

[Cappurr]

54. You specifically asked if he received any medals the ordinary

soldier got. I thought I answered your question. :shrug:

[TAH6988]

56. No you got

it out of context, but that's okay! :-)

[Justice]

51. Wesley Clark's Medals and Honors

Military Medals:

five Defense Distinguished Service Medals,
two Army Distinguished Service Medals,
the Silver Star
four Legion of Merit Awards
two Bronze Star Medals
the Purple Hearts

Honors:

Honorary Knighthood from the British government
Honorary Knighthood from the Dutch government
Commander of the French Legion of Honor
US Presidential Medal of Freedom Recipient (the US’ highest civilian honor, for his outstanding leadership and service in the Kosovo conflict)

http://www.collegenews.org/x2780.xml

[TAH6988]

52. No doubt about it, the guy was

a military "Stud."