Doubts about existence of Al Queda... I've been saying this all along...

[radwriter0555]

and we know I'm always right...

Investigators in Britain are privately at loggerheads with their US and continental European counterparts over claims that the UK was used as a pivotal base for Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network in the run-up to the September 11 terror attacks.
Documents compiled in Madrid, Milan, Paris and Hamburg and seen by the Guardian indicate that most of the known attacks planned or executed by al-Qaida in the past four years had links to Britain

snip

But British security sources paint a very different picture, saying that the ties with al-Qaida are tenuous. They are backed up by police, defence lawyers and terrorism experts who all argue that there has been little activity in terms of terror cells.

And the rest:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,649744,00.html

[TrogL]

1. I don't understand your topic

Yes, Elizabeth, there is such as a thing as al-Qaida.

[displacedtexan]

29. al quaida means 'the base'

like the republican base...
a phrase easily misused to confuse the uneducated masses.

[Tinoire]

2. Al-Queda is a figment of Bush, Blair and Sharon's imagination.

Al-Queda is a figment of Bush, Blair and Sharon's imagination.

Been saying that for 2 years.

[Pltcl_jnky]

3. so

who is it that Osama keep mentioning in his videos....

and who was it that blew up the WTC in 1993, the barracks in saudi arabia, the embassies in africa, the USS Kole, the World Trade center in 2001....etc etc etc etc??? Aliens or are you going to theorize it was all Bush and Blair and I guess Clinton is in on it too since he mentioned al queda too

[WoodrowFan]

4. you're being logical!

Keep an open mind, let your brains fall out, then you too can doubt the existance of anything that doens't fit your world view. Hey, works for freepers, why not here too!

[stickdog]

31. Or you can unquestioningly believe anything without evidence.

That approach seems to work here and for freepers as well.

[Tinoire]

5. A figment of Bush, Blair and Sharon's imagination

Nothing more.

Spend a little time in the PNAC threads. Pay particular attention to the OSP.


If that's too difficult- just stay glued to Fox and CNN and keep believing the hype.

[ComerPerro]

6. That seems a bit far-fetched

I don't find it hard to believe that a group of people once trained by the US could end up hating us so much that they decided to organize. And I would imagine that, given their numbers and our military might, they would have to use the very terror tactics in which they were trained.

[stickdog]

32. But do you have any hard evidence for this reasonable supposition?

Because 1984 makes some even more reasonable suppositions about this very topic.

[TAH6988]

7. So those things did not occur?

or the tooth fairy did them?

[Maple]

8. Wrong question

It should be how did a couple of ticked off fundies in a rubber dinghy with a home-made bomb get turned into a massive world-wide high-tech 'terrorist' network, participating in a clash of civilizations, and able to take out the US within 45 minutes funded by sales from....bin Ladens pocket change and ....honey?

[sangh0]

10. If that's the question

I'm sure glad I didn't ask it.

It should be how did a couple of ticked off fundies in a rubber dinghy with a home-made bomb

Actually, there were more than two "fundies" involved, and "home-made bomb" covers a lot of ground. The bomb that blew up the UN's office in Iraq was "home-made". So was the OKC bomb.

massive world-wide high-tech 'terrorist' network

High-tech? Who said anything about that?

able to take out the US within 45 minutes

That was Saddam, not Al Queda

[Maple]

11. Yes on each occasion

there were just a couple of people, and a home made bomb.

I didn't say anything about them not doing some damage, I said they aren't anything like the huge organization/boogeyman they've been made out to be.

The US govt has made them into a 'massive world-wide high-tech 'terrorist' network' thru hype.

And Saddam has been hyped as a link of Al Qaeda from the beginning. To the point where many Americans think it was Iraqis on the planes on 911.

[charlie]

33. Hi-tech

That bullshit James-Bondian underground fortress in Tora Bora that the Bushies insisted that Bin Laden was using as a hideout went a long way toward convincing the rubes that Al Qaeda was a high tech outfit.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid3.htm

[stickdog]

36. Really?

"The bomb that blew up the UN's office in Iraq was 'home-made.' So was the OKC bomb."

Really?

Do you have any evidence to back these assertions?

[Maple]

42. Oh be serious

It was in the news that the UN office....which btw was actually a hotel, housing the WBank and the IMF and American officers as well as the UN....was hit by a truck carrying old bits and pieces cobbled together as a bomb.

The OKC bomb was fertilizer....

Home made stuff.

[stickdog]

45. "Oh, get real! Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction!"

On what hard evidence are you basing your assertions?

"Oh be serious" just doesn't cut it, Maple.

[Maple]

46. Cute

When I read all your posts I realized we share the same viewpoint.

You're just more formal. :D

[stickdog]

35. Are you suggesting that none of these acts of terror could have possibly

been perpetrated by any military, intelligence or corporate (read: defense contracting) assets in attempts to further the political or economic interests of the responsible subgroup(s) and/or rogue group(s)?

What evidence leads you to exclude all military, intelligence and corporate assets in every one of these cases? The analyses of the same intelligence agencies and defense contracting consultants who are (at least in general) most logically the prime suspects?

[frank frankly]

48. damn straight, tinoire

why was kissinger put in charge of 9/11?

IT IS ALL BULLSHIT

[stickdog]

30. Are you saying that these acts of terrorism could not have been

perpetrated by any military, intelligence or corporate (read: defense contracting) assets in attempts to further the political or economic interests of the responsible subgroup(s) and/or rogue group(s)?

What evidence leads you to exclude all military, intelligence and corporate assets in every one of these cases? The analyses of the same intelligence agencies and defense contracting consultants who are (at least in general) most logically the prime suspects?

[Pastiche423]

18. The "U.S." must have a boogeyman

at all times. Al Qaeda is our newest bestest boogeyman. That is why it was so important to tie Saddam to our newest bestest boogeyman.

The powers-that-be must have a boogeyman to divert attention from what they are really doing to our country.

[maggrwaggr]

22. Don't forget us liberals! We're bogeymen too!

Don't want to get left out here.

'Course our existence doesn't justify invading countries and spending 500 billion a year on war machinery.

Ya need ferriners for that

[Capn Sunshine]

20. Hey! I'VE been saying that for two years too!

Felt kind of lonely out here
I just don't accept there is a well organized criminal terrorist group planning shit daily in this country except the ones that were already here, like the Crips, Bloods, Russian Vietnamese and Mexican Mafias

who kill over what, 40,000 citizens a year?

But that doesnt count since they aren't from the middle east?

I also call BULLSHIT on this whole notion of Al Quaeda as some armed power roaming the countryside of the USA.

[Tinoire]

26. Nice to meet you!!

None of it has added up from the start.

Bush would have told us the Homeless were part of Al-Qaeda had they been within 100 yards of an oil field.


Peace

[radwriter0555]

21. Exactly. Think about it. When's the last time Al Queda took credit

for ANYTHING?

Never.

But bona fide terrorists (and serial crooks & serial killers) take GREAT glee and glory in their deeds...

[SoCalDem]

34. Not necessarily a figment of imagination, but very likely a gross

exaggeration.. If bin Laden was not so rich, he would be just another in a long line of ragtag anarchists who pop up from time to time.. The fact that he is a charismatic and stupendously RICH zealot is what makes him dangerous..

The poor misinformed young men who flock to his side , do so in order to secure their families' future.....and because he is a mythical man who supposedly "singlehandedly beat the USSR".. Myth is a powerful force , when undereducated people are involved.. The higher-up followers of bin Laden are zealots, and the ones who actually "serve" him on the lower levels are usually young men who have been so totally brainwashewd, that they are powerless to resist..

Bush did Osama the biggest favor, by elevating him to almost god-like status..

Instead of treating him like the thug that he is, Bush actually honored him by making him worthy of 100% attention by the only superpower in the world..

[Capn Sunshine]

38. YEAH BUT THE POINT IS

They aren't hanging out HERE.

[OneBlueSky]

9. I can't find it right now, but there was a really good article . . .

some time back . . . maybe a year or more . . . that made a very convincing case that al-Qaida isn't so much an organization as it is a state of mind . . . sort of an organizing principle that anyone in the Middle East or elsewhere that wants a jihad against America can hang their hat on . . . I'll keep looking and see if I can find the article . . .

[Tinoire]

27. Would love to read that! Thanks n/t

[OneBlueSky]

44. here's an excerpt from Jane's Review of the article I remember . . .

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/pr/pr030807_1_n.shtml

I'm sure I saw the whole thing somewhere or other some time back, but can't seem to find the link . . . anyhow, the language I specifically recall is:

"To begin with, Al-Qaeda is not a traditional terrorist organisation. It does not have a clear hierarchy, military mindset and centralised command. At best, Al-Qaeda is a network of affiliated groups sharing religious and ideological backgrounds, but which often interact sparingly. Al-Qaeda is a state of mind, as much as an organisation; it encompasses a wide range of members and followers who can differ dramatically from each other."

there's more in the excerpt, but I guess you have to subscribe to read the whole thing . . . little steep for my budget . . .

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/pr/pr030807_1_n.shtml

[Tinoire]

49. Thanks OneBlueSky

Too steep for my budget these days too but interesting reading!

[LoneStarLiberal]

12. Al-Qaeda is for real...but

Al-Qaeda is a real organization of Islamic militants. They were around long before the Supreme Court voted to allow the Florida Secretary of State to stop counting ballots. Their existence is documented by plenty of Clinton administration and private intelligence sources for those who do not trust anything done since 2000 by the government.

What we do need to realize is that this administration, just like the Clinton administration before it, doesn't know jack shit about Al-Qaeda. Even with the application of tons of cash for palm grease, our intelligence community does not go from having few Arabic speakers and almost no one on the ground in Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen, and Pakistan to having all the goods on Al-Qaeda in less than a year.

What is more realistic is that we only know about bits and pieces of this organization and our intel community is committing the ecological fallacy of extrapolating from small samples to the whole of the organization in their current assessments.

[TioDiego]

14. I believe Lonestart. The only one who spelled it right.

[chadm]

13. They exist, but who is their master?

.

[htuttle]

15. I found this website to be very interesting regarding 'al queda'

Here:
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/

It's almost certainly someone's propaganda (my guess is Saudi), but it does provide a wealth of information on the background of the 'al queda' movement.

Among other things, this site posits that 'al queda' has far more in common with Egyptian militant movements, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and followers of Sayyid Qutb, than it does with the religious leaders in Saudi Arabia and the so-called 'Wahabbists' (which this site states is a terribly imprecise term).

I'd encourage people to read it, and judge the information for themselves.

(here's a tidbit from the site: The Taliban aren't 'wahhabists' at all. They are Deobandi Sufis).

[Maple]

16. And because so little is known

about them...they are a blank canvas on which people can paint any story that works for them.

[Tinoire]

28. Yep--- That's for sure...

Maple and Tinoire not butting heads over the WTO. This is great!

Thanks Maple.

[Maple]

43. Hey I can be nice !

It just depends on the topic. :D

[Tinoire]

50. I know that :) Knew that a long time ago.... Peace n/t

[leftofthedial]

17. Al Qaeda exists

but what is it?

Is it the centralized army of trained terrorists controlled personally by Osama bin Laden? I don't believe this version of al Qaeda ever existed.

Is it a large label given to a diverse group of loosely affiliated or unaffiliated but with some shared interests cells of militant Muslims? More likely.

Or is it a fictitious bogeyman created by the Bush/PNAC junta and their supportive friends to frighten all of us into compliance, perhaps vaguely based on a real person(s), much like Emanuel Goldstein in 1984? Like it or not, this is possible too.

[TahitiNut]

19. The Busholini Fascists want us to fear a bogeyman.

In every mythological reference, al-Qaeda is depicted as some vast, militant Islamist conspiracy, more organized and threatening than a corrupt multinational corporation. I tend to view al-Qaeda as a loose "interest group" that might share some minimal subset of motives but has no monolithic organization of any kind. To the degree they have any organization, it's probably only that which was nurtured by the US in the Soviet/Afghanistan years. I personally believe the Busholinis get their paradigm by projection and transference -- ascribing to this largely mythical (dis)organization the surreptitiously predatory attributes that they themselves embody and covet.

Psychological and sociopathic disorders are like that. It's the "do unto others before they do unto you" pathology. The psychoethic says that it's OK to do what your 'enemy' does, even if the ascription of motives and behavior are largely fictitious. Indeed, we can see this same rationalization in DU: "they fight dirty so we can too". What this mentality does is preliminarily surrender power and control over one's own behavior (and ethics themselves) to an opponent -- a surrender of that which cannot be stolen, only given up.

It's even more pernicious than the "Red Menace" of the 50's. :shrug:

[maggrwaggr]

23. great post, TN!

Couldn't agree more. Evil people always do that, their big mistake is in assuming everyone else is just as evil as they are. They can't comprehend it any other way.

So they act before they're acted upon. Then they're always quite shocked when anyone's offended.

These people (the Bushistas) don't think like you and I do. To them, black IS white. War IS peace.

[leftofthedial]

25. virtually every negative statement out of their mouths

about any "enemy" foreign or domestic; political, military, or diplomatic, is projection.

They lie and call their opponents liars.

They conspire and call their opponents conspirators.

They break the law and call their opponents criminals.

They slander and lie about their opponents and then accuse them of "politics of personal destruction."

It's amazing.

[stickdog]

24. In reality, al-Qaeda is one name for a loose knit group of

fundamentalist Islamic activists and militants who dream of a united pan-Islamic theocracy.

However, in Western psy-op parlance, this word has come to mean those responsible for any unclaimed act of terror that is planned and executed with the sort of materials and coordination that leave a mil/intel signature.

By allowing al-Qaeda to be constantly and unquestioningly characterized in this manner, corporate media has made "al-Qaeda" into the ultimate bogeyman of Western convenience.

[MrPrax]

37. Communists, Al Queda...add your own!!

They all surprisingly share the same characteristics!!
World Domination!
Resentment and envy of the US/the West!
Employ Violence and Indoctrination!
and very very evil and NOT be be taken seriously on anything they say because it is a trick to FOOL you...
Kill them on site...



Strength Through Good Clean Living...Just Say No To Evil

[leftofthedial]

39. mmphglptz are the ENEMIES of FREEDOM

they HATE US for our FREEDOMS

[stickdog]

40. kick

Alf Qaeda - the sitcom puppet terrorist from outer space.

[moof]

41. Al-Qaeda translates to " the list " ?

haven't several PBS shows said that orginally Al-Qaeda simply came from the early attempts to keep track of the people willing to help OSB fight the Soviets in Afganistan ?
Al-Qaeda or "the list" was made up of people who orginally were helped by OSB and other CIA operatives back then so the reference to Al-Qaeda
has always seemed to be misappropirated.

Does anyone else confirm the moof memory ?

[Aidoneus]

47. sort of

"the list"/"the foundation"/"the base"/etc.

"al-Qai'dah" is a reference to literally the base in the Pakistan border territory where the internationals registered with the organized groups fighting the Afghan government & the Soviet enforcers, run by Sheikh Abdallah Azzam (one of the main ideologues of the campaign) and to a lesser extent bin Laden. It was begun to keep track of the names of the internationals fighting with them so that families could be notified in the event of deaths; afterwards it became something of an "address book" when the goals were altered.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

53. Your definition is the nearest to the truth.

Al Qa'ida was simply a "paymaster's table" where those volunteering to fight the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan were kept track of.

Those 70,000 or so individuals DID do what the "civilized" world would not do:

Resist and oppose the oppresive Soviet regime's desire to take over more territory.

When the Russians went home, so did all but a few dozen of these men.

They were not "trained by the CIA".
The US was no great help, they simply supplied a few armaments.

For the West to characterize them as "terrorists" and demonize these people who helped to get Russia out of Afghanistan is simply criminal.

When Usama bin Laden suggested to Saudi Arabia that the same kind of group could remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq, the Saudis got cold feet, chose the US to do the job and decided that Usama was "criminal".

Other nations then joined the Saudis in this view and voila, a new "terrorist mastermind" was born.
And ever since 1990, the agents, armies and police of at least 13 nations have tried their level best to remove him and his influence.

It must also be kept in mind that no evidence or proof has yet to surface regarding Usama bin Laden's "guilt" in any of the acts which his enemies ascribe to him.

[frank frankly]

51. late night kick

ask questions, questions, questions...

[leftofthedial]

52. Commies, Iran-Islamists, Saddam, "terrists", Osama, Al Qaeda, Saddam

A series of "rent-a-bogeymen" used by our gummint to keep us down.

they tried briefly to demonize some domestic bad guys (gangs, drug dealers, etc.) but that doesn't do shit for arms sales.

The post WWII Murkan power structure requires a foreign bogeyman in order to function. Without one, much like in the heyday of the dot com "bubble" and the Clinton Administration, we begin to realize that we don't really need "them."

All the evil and turmoil of the last two and a half years is just our punishment for getting too uppity during the last half of the 90's.

And "Al Qaeda" is just the latest facade of "evil."

[Spentastic]

54. Of course it exists

Al Quaeda

There it is just above this sentence.

But that may be all it is, a couple of words to frighten people. I got roundly flamed for questioning the existence of such an "organisation" in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

I don't doubt that there are "terrorist" groups in the world that wish the U.S harm. However, I do doubt their ability to coordinate their efforts. It seems that one successful spectacular (9/11), means these fiends are capable of almost superhuman feats of terrorism. This simply is faulty logic. The bombs being used to attack targets now are no more sophisticated than those used by the IRA for example.

Seems to me that Al Quaeda are about as organised as skateboarders. They have a nominal culture / figures of importance but they all pretty much do what they want in their own small groups.