Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Have Freepers turned into radical environmentalists?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:01 PM
Original message
Have Freepers turned into radical environmentalists?
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 06:02 PM by nebula
I was surprised by the general reaction of this long, rather passionate Freerepublic thread, on the subject of Cold Fusion as a possible viable alternative to fossil fuels. Judging by the general consensus of this thread, I almost thought I was on some left-wing anti-governmenet, anti-Big Oil conspiracy site.

Is Cold Fusion for Real?

Well if even the Freeps think this is indeed a reality, then I must suppose it is!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for that...
... I now have a solid mailing list for when I begin to market my perpetual motion generator. :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I've just about got my aluminum magnet perfected
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Surprisngly,
The freepers seem to have been convinced, or at least enlightened, by a very left-perspective article from SF Gate, the online branch of the liberal San Francisco Examiner paper. To my surprise, not a single right-wing, knee-jerk reaction to the pro-Cold Fusion article on that FreeRepublic thread.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Even sheep can sense the impending earthquake...
Certainly even freepers are beginning to feel, in the deepest pits of bare-minimum luminescence, that something needs to be done.

As prices continue to rise, even they will start printing Peak Oil and maybe even Global Warming articles. (decade or so on the latter)

Meanwhile; look up the ITER nuclear fusion project - that's our real hope. Solar, wind, polythermal... all a drop in the bucket compared to what we can accomplish energywise with hot nuclear fusion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Freeps like big expensive things to sell to a gullible public. This
still is not being able to work. It's a nice theory though. Lots of talk of bringing back nuclear power. Something the average person can't put on their roof. Not a peep about solar or wind. Put solar on everyone's home and that would cut down a lot. Get rid of SUV's and put solar on top of cars and that should cut down a lot. What a country. What happened to all the hippes that were into conservation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. The problem with solar energy
Relatively very little can be stored, so it depends on the weather cooperating (bright and sunny), which it often is not...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Battery storage technology is getting better.....
I think what's missing is a "gas station" model for quick battery exchange. Light weight vehicles that can go 100 miles on charge, carry 4 people or equivalent weight and reach 40 MPH speeds could be very doable in a few years...for 60-75% of the typical driving requirements, this transit technology could fit the needs quite nicely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. solar is still expensive:
$0.25 per KW-hr; coal is only $0.04. But solar will drop in price; within 10 years, it may be as low as $0.06 per KW-hr.

I priced solar for my house. To be energy-independent, it would cost at least $30,000. This would pay for itself in approximately never. (I pay $40-$100 a month for juice, depending on whether it's airconditioning season. Electricity where I live is coal, nasty but cheap.)

I'm hoping the cost for solar will drop substantially. It would be great to have solar. It would be great to charge a battery car with solar. People are hacking their Priuses to put extra batteries in them, and then they plug them in and charge them. A $3000 modification that gives them a range of 10 miles under pure battery. Can double the already high mileage of a Prius on a typical commute.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Ummm... they became 'conservative'?
(sorry- couldn't help it.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Try here;
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I've been hearing about this for over 40 years. 300 billion would have
gone a long way for solar, wind, and maybe even CF. But since we're not training top scientists anymore and programming is a dying field, looks like we're up a creek without a paddle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Google "Iter"+Nuclear fusion
300B would have brought that a ways up too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Article on CF
Don't know how significant the information presented in the following article will turn out to be, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Years after Physics profesors Pons and flesihmann were dismissed as quacks after announcing their discovery of Cold fusion in 1988, research into Cold fusion continues...


Data Versus Dogma: The Continuing Battle Over Cold Fusion

"...In the spring of 1991, two years after the controversial 1989 announcement, Professor Wilford Hansen of Utah State University showed that several of the cells from the original Fleischmann Pons experiment really did produce excess heat. According to Professor Hansen, one cell had an excess heat output of 45 electron volts per palladium atom, another had an excess heat output of 1,700 electron volts per palladium atom, and a third had an excess heat output of 6,000 electron volts per atom of palladium. Beaudette noted that the amount of energy released from the conventional electrochemical reaction, by contrast, is merely four electron volts. Between August 1990 and February 1991, Michael McKubre of SRI International performed experiments in which they observed anomalous power in three out of four cells. At Osaka University in Japan between 1991 and 1994, Professors Yoshiaki Arata and Yue-Chang Zhang performed successive experiments until they were able to achieve an excess heat output of 250 watts for 125 watts of input, a generation rate of 100 percent. Professor Arata had received numerous awards for scientific achievement over the years, and has had the honor of having a major building on the Osaka University campus named after him.

The United States Navy, through its Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), undertook one of the more comprehensive studies of cold fusion. NRL decided to “investigate the anomalous effects associated with the prolonged charging of the palladium / deuterium system.” One of the labs undertook a study of the conditions under which excess heat could be generated. In another lab, scientists demonstrated the connection between excess heat and the production of helium gas, which was an indicator of the nuclear reactions generated by the cold fusion phenomenon. Using refined techniques, the NRL team was able to demonstrate that the cold fusion effect was reproducible. They found that, as the current passed through the cell and the temperature of the electrolyte solution increased, so too did excess heat production, and the heat sources were located close to the electrode/electrolyte contact surface. Melvin H. Miles, one member of the team, described results from experiments conducted in Japan from December 5, 1997 to February 12, 1998 . Dr. Miles reported that excess power had been generated over a period of seventy days. In another experiment that ran from February 17 to February 26, 1998 , excess power was observed in three different cells, particularly during the last two days. Data from this experiment indicate that up to 400 milliwatts of anomalous heat was present in two of the cells.

Some of the world’s largest energy companies had also conducted experiments based on Fleischmann’s and Pons’s work. Krivit and Winocur reported that scientists at Amoco Oil Corporation had found indications of excess heat being generated at rates up to 1,000 times beyond what could be accounted for by normal experimental error. Scientists working on a report for Shell Research indicated that they had confirmed the presence of up to several watts of excess heat in what they termed the “simple Fleischmann-Pons system.”

Not only is there a large body of data, generated by numerous replications, there are at least two working models being put forward by which manifestations of anomalous power could be predicted. During a presentation given at the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, McKubre described those hypotheses. The first identified loading as the significant variable. McKubre posited that in deuterium-palladium systems, excess heat will be observed if a sufficient quantity of deuterium is loaded into the palladium lattice through the electrochemical process. This hypothesis finds substantial support in the evidence, according to McKubre, in that in 51 percent of the experiments where maximum loading was achieved, excess heat was present. That percentage drops significantly when loading is reduced, even if the reduction is slight. If between 95 and 99 percent of maximum loading is achieved, excess power was observed only 38 percent of the time. With loading less than 95 percent of maximum, excess heat is observed only 17 percent of the time. The second hypothesis has to do with the observed correlation between excess heat and the presence of nuclear residues. McKubre opined that excess heat originates in a nuclear effect exhibited by crystalline metals heavily loaded with deuterium. He pointed to repeated experiments showing a correlation between heat and the presence of helium 4, a bi-product of nuclear fusion. This hypothesis predicts that where there is a strong output of helium-4, excess heat will be present in amounts up to 24 megavolts per palladium atom. What was actually observed, according to McKubre, was the presence of excess heat in amounts ranging from 19 and 45 megavolts per atom of palladium. Cold fusion has thus the achieved a hallmark of a true science - predictability..."

(continued...)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. That thread is five years old...
How did you find it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC