When you call undocumented people names like "illegals," you dehumanize

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

them. Dehumanizing someone is one step to making them inferior to you. Making them inferior to you is part and parcel of bigotry and racism.

Just to be clear on where I stand with people on this site that have the nerve to use racist and bigoted terminology.

[tuvor]

1. How do you think one should refer to them, then? n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. undocumented persons

that's what they are

[Balbus]

11. Why stop there?

Why take the risk of de-humanizing anyone that breaks the law? We could call a robber an unmaterialed person - he has not materials, therefore he must take from others. It could be a fun game - come up with cutesy names for all types of criminals.

:bounce: Yay!!

[slackmaster]

16. We already do that for criminal suspects

A suspected robber, presumed innocent, is a criminal suspect. Once convicted he or she is a robber or convicted robber.

[H2O Man]

45. A suspected criminal

is only presumed innocent in the context of a court room. Outside the court, that does not apply, and is not intended to.

I do agree with the OP regarding dehumanizing people.

[slackmaster]

64. Best blooper ever on San Diego TV news...

After Mr. Dale Akiki was promptly acquitted of all charges by a jury, he was referred to by a news twit as "Acquitted child molester Dale Akiki"

:wtf:

The case was a witch hunt. See http://www.ags.uci.edu/~dehill/witchhunt/cases/akiki.htm

[H2O Man]

133. Oh my!

The news media is strange. They often report that someone was found "innocent."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Yeah you're right..amd why stop at ILLEGULZ..why not call them wetbacks?

WTF..it's what you mean

[One_Life_To_Give]

35. Nah Wetback is a US resident working in Mexico

without their government papers. This I was told on my first day visiting my previous employers Mexico facility. As the woman in the office handed me my government papers and commented, "This is so you won't be a Wetback"

[Balbus]

55. Again, you're displaying that amazing gift.

of knowing what people think. Try attacking the argument instead of the person. If someone is in the country illegal it is a proper term to call them illegal aliens. If YOU assume people are automatically referring to people of Mexican descent when YOU hear that term, that is YOUR issue - not mine.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Again, I pose the challenge to you that posed to another on this thread

Find me the word "illegals" used in an article describing anyone but a Mexican or Latino.

[Balbus]

68. A few links.

From the Phillipines

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/man/2002/09/26/0014226new.html

From Spain

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4456682&sourceCode=RSS

Don't know the source but it refers to "illegal aliens" from North Africa.

http://www.vdare.com/francis/turn_of_tide.htm

Another European article that uses the term "illegal aliens" to describe immigrants from the Middle East.

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/002846.html

The term is used all over the world to describe people based on their actions - not their race.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. LOL...no links from America?

[Balbus]

83. So it's only racism if an American uses that term?

I don't follow your line of reasoning here. It's an accepted term across the world? Why do you find it unacceptable in the United States?

Even Canada uses the term to describe their illegal immigrants from Asia.

http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/120104/loc_smuggle001.shtml

http://asiancanadian.blogspot.com/2004/11/chinese-illegal-aliens-in-canada.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

86. No, it's not only racism if an American uses it

There are racists and bigots all over the planet. Since you raised the issue that the word is used to describe other nationalities HERE IN AMERICA besides Mexicans, I asked if you could provide any written literature that refers to someone OTHER THAN a Mexican as an illegal. You couldn't (although you could find references from other countries who scapegoat their immigrants)

[Balbus]

89. Now you're chasing shadows.

You were the one that brought up the fact that its used ONLY to describe immigrants of Mexican descent and you ASSUMED everyone else did also. You asked for links that pointed where it was used differently and I provided I think 6 of them - I can provide more if you need them.

C'mon, you can do better than this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. ROFLMAO I suppose you could find a Japanese article calling Americans

"illegals" No..I'm not chasing SHIT...I asked for apples and you submitted oranges.

FIND ME AN ARTICLE FROM AN AMERICAN THAT CALL SOMEONE AN "ILLEGAL" and does NOT refer to a MEXICAN.

IF you can't deliver, then why not simply concede that you can't?

[Balbus]

94. Next shadow, please!

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/23/205001.shtml

Illegal Aliens From Mideast Threaten U.S. Security

Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com
Thursday, Jan. 24, 2002

When Homeland Security czar Tom Ridge heads to Congress to sell his plan to batten down U.S. borders with a sweeping consolidation and reorganization of the Customs Service, Immigration and Naturalization, Border Patrol and Coast Guard, he will be armed with new eye-opening statistics from the Census Bureau, highlighted by at least 58,000 Middle Eastern men (Israel excluded) illegally residing in the country.

The figure is much greater than previously thought and, analysts say, shows America's vulnerability to terrorist infiltrators, according to today's Washington Times.

Three of the Sept. 11 terrorist hijackers were illegally in the U.S. from the Middle East.

"While the vast majority of illegals from the Middle East are not terrorists, the fact that tens of thousands of people from that region, and millions more from the rest of the world, can settle in the United States illegally means that terrorists who wish to do so face few obstacles,” Steven A. Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, told the Times.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

95. the link won't load for me..wanna post a snip?

And thanks...you found a right wing site calling someone other than a Mexican an illegal :) hell...proves my point...only a bigot would use the term :D

[Balbus]

100. How come I knew that's exactly what the next shadow would be!

So I found a few more for you! And since you're at liberty to call any site you don't agree with a right-wing site, I guess there's no way to dispute that!

http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=12695&cat=NMTOPSTORIES

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EPF/is_22_99/ai_61361437

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. I don't call any site I disagree with a right wing site, but I certainly

hope you aren't denying that NEwsmax is a right wing wite.

Furthermore, I said the people who get referred to as ILLEGALS, not illegal aliens although I still don't prefer that term. But nevermind your transgressions when not providing evidence for what I actually requested.

BTW, those are very nice articles that demonstrate the plight people face in America when you criminalize them and treat them like shit.

You should read those articles. They prove my point rather well..that is that dehumanizing people sets them up to be treated in the poorest of manners

[Balbus]

111. I never disagreed that immigrants that enter the country illegally

are dehumanized, taken advantage of, have their lives put in danger from the environment, human smugglers and other low-lifes of American corporations. Just that changing the accepted world-wide term is not going to make it any easier for any immigrant no matter where they come from. Change the laws and then the terminology will follow suit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

120. could ya do me a great big favor and reread my OP?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Balbus]

107. I answered the question that was put to me.

"FIND ME AN ARTICLE FROM AN AMERICAN THAT CALL SOMEONE AN "ILLEGAL" and does NOT refer to a MEXICAN."

I googled it - if she doesn't like the source she can google it herself or be more specific in her reqeust.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

114. It's pretty funny that you post on all and every thread

about the Minutemen and illegal immigration. Why?

How do you feel about other issues important to Democrats?

[foreigncorrespondent]

168. Ok I challenge...

...you to find an article from an American source (non right wing) that calls caucasian people illegals in the U.S.

[AngryAmish]

191. Here you go little buddy

About half my cousins who came to this country we always called illegal aliens. Because they were illegal aliens. They are nice Irish folk.

[Maestro]

123. I'm telling you

if anyone wants to find freepers who lurk here, regardless of number of posts, this subject brings them out. I can't believe anyone would link to Newsmax. :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

129. Subtle as a sledgehammer

:eyes:

An archive search sheds light too...as far as consistency of views.

[BurtWorm]

127. So what does Richard Mellon Scaife have to say about this?

:eyes:

[jackstraw45]

80. Just look north....

http://eatthestate.org/07-06/CanadianMenace.htm

http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/111301hall.htm

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/illegalalien/

[OldLeftieLawyer]

108. Trying reading

the Washington Post. The New York Times. The Wall Street Journal. I read those papers daily, and you'll find that your narrow little bias doesn't extend to the rest of the real world.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. Try reading my OP so you will clearly understand the term to which I am

objecting.

Holy fuck..if this were a contract your posts would be malpractice!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

136. Nice that you need to insult my profession

Does that help this discussion?

You have posted what you think. So have I. Does it advance anything to make sadly impotent remarks about my legal skills?

I think not. I think you've made some points here with this most interesting and provocative post that you might not have anticipated. I think you might have discovered some things about yourself that might surprise you.

But, really, why make personal remarks? There's no need for that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

139. Good one. I'm a lawyer

Now go read the little insult you posted to me immediately prior to my post. OK?

[BurtWorm]

21. How about pretombstoned persons?

:bounce:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

109. When watching abortion clinic picketers,

with their shouts and signs about the "pre-born," I always think I should go there with a sign identifying myself as "pre-dead."

[shadowknows69]

130. ok then

undocumented persons in this country illegally. better?

[slackmaster]

14. But they are documented

Most of them have some form of ID like a birth certificate, driver license, or matricula consular card.

You have a point, NSMA - They aren't illegal people, rather their presence in the USA is illegal.

I don't see the value in replacing one inaccurate term with another. Personally I don't mind the extra syllables required to say "People in the country illegally".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. I appreciate you seeing my point. They may be here illegally, but they

are being scapegoated for ills with which they have nothing to do. Calling them a dehumanizing name is part and parcel of scapegoating them.

[slackmaster]

36. If human cloning is banned, then a cloned human would be "illegal"

:evilgrin:

[ucmike]

189. pc non-sense.

stop watering down the language. they are illegal, if they are undocumented.

you want to have everyone refer to them in a way you see as appropriate, yet have no problem calling others rascist and demeaning because you have semantic issues.

lighten up. this is the kind of thing that makes "liberal" into a derogatory term.

[Walt Starr]

199. Nah, call them CRIMINALS, because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE! n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. You're buying into "Bushspeak"

They're here illegally.

They're not citizens, they're aliens.

They're illegal aliens, and calling them undocumented workers gives them a legitimacy they do not deserve.

Wait.

That was a joke - your post - wasn't it?

Silly.

[dcfirefighter]

5. Illegal Aliens

That's what they are.

We should tighten border security BUT allow more LEGAL aliens.

Of course modern Agribusiness would fail, as would most janitorial companies, and many construction companies.

[MADem]

48. The term "illegals" is just a shortening of that very term

Of course, if you dry up the source of these illegal alien persons, or whatever the PC term is this week, then those who hire them under the table will see a massive cut in their profits. All of those cash money envelopes will have to become real paychecks, with accounts, registration, taxation, and all of that stuff attached. The money order storefronts would close up, because these people could legitimately open bank accounts with their verified status. The whole network of people who do business with these people would take a massive hit.

Can't have that, now, can we? The rule in this country is that the rich get richer, and the poor, poorer. It's the Murkan way!

[Cleita]

135. Illegal aliens?

If you really want to parse that, what it says is persons who aren't legally aliens. So what are they? They are workers without a work permit (the document) to be hired in this country, hence undocumented workers. There is nothing illegal nor alien about them.

And shouldn't the employer be the person arrested or ticketed, whatever it takes, for hiring workers without a work permit? Seems to me this is where the real legal or illegal issues lie.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. I believe the act is criminal, but the person is a human being

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. According to that thinking,

convicted murderers would be called "detained persons," but not "convicted murderers."

Please.

Our language has been bastardized enough by Ratface in the White House; your version of political correctness not only disputes the concept - it changes it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. So if you were representing a person at a hearing prior to a determination

as to the legality of their being in the country, it would be OK with you if the judge called your client an "illegal?"

Just checking to see when you deem it OK to be prejudicial and when you don't.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

78. Most likely,

the judge would call my client "the defendant."

You're in it up to your ears when you try to pull a stunt like that. Face it - your PC nitpicking is silly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Not at all. The reason you would object is because it would unfairly

prejudice your client.

Call it PC nitpicking if it pleases you, but I don't think it's asking too much to refer to people in terms not meant to dehumanize or make them inferior to you.

[dcfirefighter]

90. We're not on trial

When I say "Illegal Aliens" I mean that subset of people who are not citizen's of the US and are here illegally. If they are here legally, then my statement doesn't refer to them.

The statement "Illegal Alien" precludes, by definition, the "legal Aliens", and therefore should offer no offence.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

118. Hey...there's loads of people who liked Jim Crow and agree with you

excuse me...I'm off to go call the janitor a "toilet washer" and see how he likes it..I don't wanna corrupt the language any more than I have :D

[OldLeftieLawyer]

134. Nothing to excuse

It's your opinion; you're entitled. I'm entitled to mine.

There's no need to take any of it personally, which is what makes DU so great.

Good luck with that toilet washer.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. Right now he's a vacuumer and it's making me crazy..I'm leaving

He's annoyed me...I think I'll ask him to show me his documents on the way out ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. Right now he's a vacuumer and it's making me crazy..I'm leaving

He's annoyed me...I think I'll ask him to show me his documents on the way out ;-)

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

164. I conceded nothing. Thankyou for sharing.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

103. Object to what?

You know, you've got yourself so tangled up in this absurd notion, you're starting to make things up. There's nothing to "object" to when my client is the defendant.

Calling someone what they are - I am a woman - describes them. It neither dehumanizes or humanizes me. It describes me.

Thus, "illegal aliens" are aliens who are in this country illegally. It is a description and not an assessment of their worth as human beings.

You need a good semantics course, followed by a really good semiotics course.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. OK..let me know if I am posting too fast for you..I will type very slowly

the term I said you would object to would be "illegal"..not illegal alien and not defendant...why? because it would unfairly prejudice your client.

Therefore, the problem lies not with my grasp of semantics but with your very own reading comprehension.

Furthermore, a SEMANTICS class would prove my point to you better than your point to me.

Google Sapir-Whorf...you just might benefit from it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

132. If you knew my answer,

why ask me the question?

You're going too slow.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Oh, come on..it's not like they're White and People.

I'm similarly appalled at the alleged "liberals" here, attacking the poor and desperate people crossing the border to do the work that would have most of these "They're stealing our jobs" whiners in the hospital after 8 hours.

[Floogeldy]

6. That's quite a leap of logic you are making here

That a person is illegally in this country is not contingent upon race. That a majority of undocumented people in this country are hispanic is not relevant to their illegality. Their race is not logically tied to their illegality.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. That's why I qualified with the word BIGOTED

but it is a foregone conclusion when people mention ILLEGALS, they are mostly referencing Mexicans.
No leap of logic at all...no more a leap of logic than people in the lounge all understanding what SHIZNIT means even though it isn't a word.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

29. You're making a HUGE assumption there

When I think of illegal aliens, I do not automatically think of Mexicans.

But, congratulations on knowing how other people think. That's one hell of a gift.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Congratulations on calling someone other than a Mexican an illegal

You ought to get a medal. Find me one print reference regarding the term "illegals" that refers to someone other than Mexicans and I will concede that it is "I" that is so special rather than you.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

170. So, the only people in this country in ...........

........... an "undocumented state" are Mexicans?

Wow.

Who knew?

That's incredible.

[Floogeldy]

37. But it is not a foregone conclusion . . .

. . . It is not a foregone conclusion that use of the term "illegal" is racist or bigoted. I think it is fair to say that, according to you, use of the term "illegal" would be just fine if we were talking about white Canadians.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Well then it would be bigoted rather than racist, since it is still

intended to prejudice the recipient of the slur.

[Floogeldy]

60. What evidence do you have of intent to prejudice?

You're pulling that out of thin air.

[MADem]

51. Remember Gerard Depardiu in the film 'Green Card?'

He was an illegal, and he was white as the driven snow!

There used to be hoardes of Irish illegals in Boston just a few decades ago--since things have gotten good back in the aulde sod, they've all gone home!

[Floogeldy]

58. I remember that!

I liked that movie. Especially when he played the piano.

B-)

[TahitiNut]

7. Well, we sure wouldn't want to do that.

What would the freepers, bushbots, insurgents, ..., terrorists, Zionists, jihadists, sexists, ..., bigots, moderates, liberals, ..., Deaniacs, Kerryites, and extremists say?
:dunce:


:loveya:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

161. Bravo n/t

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

8. So are you proposing to let in everyone

who wants to come? Then why have immigration laws altogether?

FYI, I find it racist to say that illegal immigrants are all brown people, when that is not the case. Or that legal immigrants are white, when that is not the case (ask the Indians and Chinese legal immigrants).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. where did you get that ? Was it something I said?

I didn't think so.

[CTLawGuy]

190. yes, hes' right

when you conflate "illegals" with "Mexicans" you're assuming all illegals are Mexicans, which they are not.

[Bridget Burke]

12. You mean you judge people by their vocabulary?

I surely do!

}(

[seventythree]

15. Oh PLEASE!!!!!!

If you don't understand the difference between racist/bigoted terms and descriptive terms, there's a problem. There is nothing more racist or bigoted in the term illegal alien than there is in undocumented worker, and that point is lost on no one.

[slackmaster]

18. I have a problem with "undocumented worker" too

Some of them aren't workers.

:D

[seventythree]

22. good point

what about law-breaking-non-citizens?

[slackmaster]

24. Only in the non-smoking, non-swearing, non-farting section of your bar

:D

[Cleita]

145. Oh, and what are they, rich Saudis?

Plenty of those in Beverly Hills. None of them work. I think we all know which demographic NSMA is referring to.

[AngryAmish]

193. What if they can't find a job?

Then surely they cannot be a undocumented worker.

[UdoKier]

17. Oh BS. Illegal aliens are here illegally, hence "illegals".

"Wetback", among other derogatory terms is demeaning.

There is nothing racist about "illegals". Swedish tourists who overstay their visa period are "illegals".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Yeah..I hear Swedes getting called illegals every day in America

You guys crack me up :rofl:

[Cleita]

125. Not to mention the Swedish teenagers who are brought over

here by very rich Americans as "au pairs". They don't get paid much, because they are guests, or on a visitor's visa, yet not only do they watch the children, but often end up being the housekeeper and cook. When their contract is up they disappear into the American mainstream working in restaurants and other places they can fade into with an expired visa. Don't say it doesn't happen. I knew many of these girls personally. However, I don't see La Migra or the Minutemen worried about that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. How about, "Refugees looking for work"?

Which is what they are.

[tritsofme]

49. Refugees in what way?

If they are refugees and have been oppressed in their homeland, let them go through the asylum process like everyone else.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Economic refugees.

Fleeing poverty.

[tritsofme]

84. Isn't bestowing that status upon them patently unfair

to refugees from overseas and on the other side of the border that take the formal and legal route in obtaining asylum and refugee status?

Why give those that illegally cross the Mexican border special rights?

[rene moon]

25. Calling them "aliens" is what disgusts me

Like they are from another planet---those many people feel that way about Mexicans anyway. Dont lie!

[seventythree]

28. only young people

raised on sci-fi tv probably immediately think an alien is from outer space -- that perception is alien to me :)

[slackmaster]

30. That's a standard immigration term

The Immigration Status Food Chain(TM)

Natural citizens
Naturalized citizens
Resident aliens
Non-resident aliens

We need a new one for the bottom of the chain. I propose

Person Lacking Immigration Status or "PLIS"
Person Lacking Official Immigration Status or "PLOIS"

[rene moon]

32. I dont care

It is insulting

[AngryAmish]

194. Alien always referred to foreign people before outer space

Remember the "Alien and Sedition Act"? The women from space were called aliens because they were not citizens of this country.

[Snivi Yllom]

31. fuzzy furriners?

getting bogged down in terminology over a real and serious problem is stupid

[tuvor]

34. Any non-American is an alien in America.

They are what they are.

[slackmaster]

38. What are they called in Canada?

Other than tourists? What term is used for, say, someone on a student visa or work card?

I believe in Germany non-citizens are still referred to as "Ausländer", which reminds me of the term "Outworlder" from the original Star Trek series (Spock's Wedding episode).

[Kellanved]

116. At least some movement can be witnessed

Despite the conservatives playing the xenophobia card at all opportunities.

Slowly Germany is coming to terms with the simple fact that it is an immigration country. Sadly the overhaul of the "ius sanguis" rule is almost the only legal evidence of that so far - and even that was a huge political battle.

[rene moon]

43. Why?

Why the word alien? It just bugs me and I will never call any person an "alien". It's gross.

[slackmaster]

50. Probably because you saw scary Sci-Fi movies or books as a child

I have the same sense of the word.

Back in the early '60s there were PSAs on television advising all aliens to be sure to renew their alien address registration cards annually. It creeped me out, because my first exposure to the word was monsters from the Id in the movie Forbidden Planet.

[jackstraw45]

33. Give me a break....

When someone breaks a law, such as violating immigration laws, it is an illegal act. PERIOD.

Calling "illegal alien" a racist term REALLY insults those who are truly the VICTIMS of true racism.

Currently we have borders and laws. Until we don't, these people aren't "victims" - they are criminals. Not my opinion, it's the law of the United States.

And if you feel the need to call me names for this post, feel free.

I'm a democrat who voted for Kerry and Clinton both times. But I'm not an idiot.

[tjdee]

41. I agree with most of that...

I don't know that they are criminals (much like a mother stealing bread so her children can eat), but I do know that they are in the country ILLEGALLY.

That has nothing to do with my feelings on the subject, it's just the fact.

[jackstraw45]

46. Merely being technical with my language...no evil implied

A criminal is someone who commits a crime in my mind.

Not saying these people are evil or bad. Hell, I'd swap Dumbya for virtually any non-violent criminal in our justice system. Couldn't be much worse.

[tjdee]

47. I agree.

:thumbsup:

[Pushed To The Left]

39. Calling them illegal immigrants differentiates them

from legal immigrants. I feel that not doing so would be unfair to legal immigrants. Of course, I think cheap labor conservatives are the real enemy when it comes to border security!

[cidliz2004]

40. When you call "illegals" undocumented, you're call a janitor

a maintenance engineer, stewardess-flight attendant, babysitter-domestic engineer.......


if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck


Does anybody else know of anymore word games? As in this word is acceptable, that word is not - BUT "illegal" is not only a noun, but also descriptive terminology......

[slackmaster]

44. "illegal" in that sense is an adjective that has been "nouned"

"People who verb words deserve to be violenced."

- cartoonist Bill Waterson through the character Calvin

[MADem]

52. Illegal FLIGHT attendants?

I don't THINK so. They have to go through FAA checks, which includes the whole Feeb background business. They aren't sky waitresses, most of them know more emergency medicine than the average person. and their role, per FAA, is flight safety, not drinks and smiles. As far as I am concerned, they should just call THEM the aircrew, because that is what they are.

[EFerrari]

69. "descriptive terminology"? Why not just say "code"? n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. This is amazing. I remember when Democrats stood firmly against bigotry

Maybe this is why we are losing. Maybe we are as unprincipled as some claim us to be.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. It's now just one big, happy, bigoted, corporate party.

All on the same payroll, all subscribing to the same xenophobia and greed. Well decorated with faux concern about "poor" American workers suffering at the hands of the desperate people seeking a way to survive.

It's not so much "amazing" as disgusting.

[jackstraw45]

63. So...for instance..a drug addict who murders to get money for a fix

is not committing an illegal act?

I mean, a desperate person, reeling from addiction, kills to seek a way to survive the night - do you consider this person a criminal? Was their murder an illegal act?

Just seeing where you draw the line. Because obviously it's not on the side of abiding the law.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. Give me a break. These people are seeking work.

Comparing them to addicts/murderers is like comparing someone who steals a loaf of bread to Enron CEOs.

I suppose your ancestors came here because life was so rosy where they originated.

[jackstraw45]

71. Nice knee-jerk response - was asking where you draw the line.

I wasn't COMPARING those who violate border laws to anything.

I was asking your opinion about a scenario involving a different crime and asking if you thought those acts by a "desperate person" were illegal.

My ancestors came to the US through legal immigration.

I don't begrudge anyone trying to make a living LEGALLY.

If you want anarchy, that's your wish but state it as that and don't hide under the shield of racism.

Why not move to Mexico and work on reforming the laws there and building up that country if you're so concerned?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. Right. And, your metaphor was purely innocent.

I "draw the line" at immoral laws that victimize poor people.

My mother came her "legally" to escape poverty in England. Of course, at the time she came it was perfectly "legal" to just cross the border and set up housekeeping. Yours?

As an Anarchist I would love to see Anarchism (not anarchy) take hold.

I'm too busy trying to reform the laws here to move to Mexico. As it looks now, in Mexico, the laws there may end up being "refomed" by the people there who are plenty tired of the oligarchs and their American henchmen.

[jackstraw45]

81. It WASN'T a metaphor...

Jeez. I was giving YOU a scenario about applying the term "illegal" to a desperate person trying to survive. That's not a metaphor.

Maybe I should point out at this point that the term "alien" is not used to imply someone from another planet. Is that why you are crying racism?

[jackstraw45]

62. I'm against bigotry

But many of us find your definition of bigotry to be severely flawed.

But please, keep calling us bigots and keep pretending you're not representing a larger political goal.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. What do you reckon that "larger political goal" is?

Perhaps Humanitarianism?

[jackstraw45]

82. Haha..you're cracking me up!

If you are such a humanitarian, move to Mexico and devote your life to improving the lives of all who live there.

OR move to the border and work with people trying to cross to apply for LEGAL immigration.

Do you know how many people DIE trying to cross the border illegally each year?

You celebrate it...I think it's incredibly sad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

149. Ahhhh..gee. And, why don't you...

start respecting brave people trying to make a living? Or, move to Beverly Hills and try to hire your beloved "legal" immigrants while railing at the defenseless.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. What larger political goal? Other than to not have people scapegoated

for America's economic problems.

[Sterling]

151. I remember when Democrats stood for a lot of things.

Those days are now over as far as the party heads go. If they stand for anything then they should stand for the working poor in the US not the fat cats that exploit illegals.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

162. I stand for all working poor. And thanks for obstinately continuing to

dehumanize those working poor from another country. Frankly I am disgusted by your post on the LBN thread wherein you state a white guy that held several Mexicans at gunpoint threatening to kill them should be rewarded.

I used to respect our differences, but you defined yourself with that remark.

Anyone else you patriots recommend we falsely imprison under the color of authority? People who look like drug dealers? People who look like liberals? Or is it only people who look like "illegals?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1391125&mesg_id=1394381

[EFerrari]

66. We have a winner. n/t

[New Dealer]

70. I don't have a problem with the word

It's a simple, informal way of referring to "undocumented persons." It's not dehumanizing them, as they are illegaly in America. They are not being called anything worse than they are, and are only being singled out for their illegal status, not for their race, ethnicity, gender, nationality, religion, or sexual orientation.

[omega minimo]

73. Language that is dehumanizing

"Dehumanizing someone is one step to making them inferior to you. Making them inferior to you is part and parcel of bigotry and racism."

...which is why sexist language on DU is not consistent with DU rules/respect or Democratic (egalitarian) principles.

:bounce::bounce:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. And I fundamentally agree with that

However, the same people defending dehumanizing Mexicans will also err against your premise as well.

[omega minimo]

144. The luxury of privilege

Missing the point while kicking the underdog.


And feeling GOOD about it!



:kick:


And not realizing that bigotry implies ignorance.



Or at least IGNORING.

[matcom]

77. i LOVE you Teena!!

:yourock:

and i agree 10000000000000000000000000000%

[WillyT]

85. Hey Teena... I Gotta Little Story For Ya !!!

First of all, I too agree with what you're saying.

Anywho, some years back when California was getting its Lottery up and going, one of the very first winners of the Big Prize (not the scratch-off cards) was an undocumented worker. This got into the news, and you could hear people screaming all the way from San Diego, to Crescent City. I mean... I'm sittin in a bar with a bunch of folks when this comes across the TV, and people were ready to go home and get their fucking guns, I swear.

Now, there had not been one picture of this individual broadcast yet, I don't even remember if their ever was, TV or print. But everybody assumed who (or in their bigoted minds, what) this person was. We knew the guy bought the ticket in San Jose, but that was about it. But when faced with with the fact that it wasn't they who had become an instant millionaire, but some "illegal alien", the racism overflowed the banks of their judgment and humanity.

There was talk of lawsuits and injunctions, hell even a lynching, as I recall some idiot at the bar saying. But I had to pipe up, and point out, to the idiots all around me who were about to lose all respect in my eyes, that nobody had bothered to ask the fellow in question, BEFORE THEY SOLD HIM THE TICKET, whether he was here legally or not. I also pointed out, that since most of these guys at the bar were involved loosely with bookies (ILLEGAL), and betting pools (ILLEGAL), and games of chance at the bar(ILLEGAL), and also tended to enjoy smoking pot (ILLEGAL) and snortin Cocaine (ILLEGAL), that they just might wanna shut the fuck up.

I reminded them of what they would do, and definitely what used to be done 100 years ago, if somebody welshed on a bet.

And shut up, they did.

:shrug:

Hey Teena.

:yourock:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. Thanks..you rock too.

And that brings a greater point to this whole Minutemen parade of horribles. These guys stop people who LOOK like they might be illegal.

In LBN there is a story about some gun crazy, glock carrying Iraq vet who held 7 people at gunpoint and threatened to kill them. We have DU'ers defending this guy...even some LONG TIME lefty DU'ers...why???? Because "those people are here illegally" as though ILLEGAL is license to abuse.

So....what happens when someone starts an organization where they hold people who LOOK LIKE drug dealers at gunpoint?

How about people who LOOK LIKE terrorists?

How about a guy who LOOKS LIKE a rapist?

;)

[nonconformist]

88. I see your point, but

Don't we have bigger fish to fry right now than worrying if we're being PC enough?

For what it's worth, I agree with the dehumanizing part, but it seems like trivial semantics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. I think language ALWAYS matters

IF you don't want women to have rights, call them bitches, whores and cunts and dehumanize them.

If you don't want middle-easterners or muslims to have rights, call them rag heads or sand n*****rs.

If you don't want black people to have rights, call them the N word.

If you don't want gays to have rights...call them any of a number of dehumanizing scapegoating names.

So..yeah..I'm shitpicking for the cause of human rights.

[nonconformist]

106. That argument would work if someone was using

racial slurs. But "illegal alien" is technically the correct term. A better analogy might be using 'mentally handicapped' or a variant in place of 'retarded'.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. Actually the specific term I took issue with was "illegals" not

"illegal aliens" although I feel similarly..and the fact that a word is institutionalized doesn't make it less bigoted/ dehumanizing..hell...the word COLORED used to be institutionalized..no?

[theboss]

92. How is "illegal alien" different from "undocumented worker?"

I don't see the difference to be honest.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. One acknowledges their actual cause in being here

Although my specific bitch is with the term "illegals" not illegal aliens... although I still prefer "undocumented" but wouldn't force the issue on anyone.

We don't call people who speed "ILLEGALS" and they are doing an illegal act..do we?


If we FOCUS on the fact that they are UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS then we have TWO points of focus...THEM and the people who hire them.

IF the law of supply and demand is correct..then when DEMAND goes down....get it?

We HAVE laws that make it unlawful to hire undocumented workers. There are SPECIFIC industries that profit HANDILY from these workers.

The Minutemen could have just as easily picked a chain of hotels as the border.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

113. Illegal aliens differentiates from

legal aliens, who are non-citizens who are in this country legally.

You might want to read a little about the history of immigration law in this country. It's fascinating, and you'll learn that there are a lot of categories into which people from other countries fall when visiting the U.S., whether legally or not.

Here in Northern Virginia, there is a vast community of illegal aliens from Middle Eastern countries, from Asia, and from Africa. That's not Mexico.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. YOu're not the only lawyer on this site. I am a lawyer..I know the classes

and I know immigration law although my specialty is labor law.

You might wanna do yourself a great big favor and reread my OP wherein I objected to calling people "ILLEGALS" although I still don't care much for the term illegal alien and simply because a term is institutionalized doesn't mean the term works...just ask developmentally disabled people (including people with speech disorders and no other disability) who all used to get lumped under the umbrella called retarded.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

138. WHAT???????????????

I'm NOT the only lawyer on DU?

Shit. That's not how I planned it and not at all how I wanted it. This is really annoying. What about the $$$ I sent to DU? I mean, a gold star is nice, but I WAS PROMISED THAT I'D BE THE ONLY LAWYER ON DU.

This really bites. I mean, if I can't trust the folks who run DU, who can I trust?

Are you SURE I'm not the only lawyer on DU?

Shit.

I am now officially sad and depressed.

Damn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

140. Aw fuck...I only wanted a debate..I didn't mean to permanently damage

your DU experience :D

BTW...I represent some of THEM THERE ILLEGALS when they are injured on the job. The California legislature tried to pass a bill precluding them from obtaining workers' compensation benefits when they were injured. It so very OBVIOUSLY gave employers the incentive to hire undocumented workers (thereby holding down their work comp costs when these people were injured) that even many Republicans held their nose when they saw the bill coming.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

146. WHAT?????????????? (Part Two)

I cannot believe it.

I'M NOT THE ONLY LAWYER ON DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.COM???????????????

Shocked, I tell you. I am shocked.............................

[theboss]

158. I'm a lawyer too

It's all over for you now, isn't it?

I was also an English major. And I still don't know why it is offensive to call an "alien" who is here "illegaly" and "illegal alien."

And I always liked Genesis.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

160. YOU ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<trembling, crying>

Tell the truth. You're really an ophthamologist, aren't you?

Or a toilet washer?

Genesis? The Phil Collins one or the Bible one?

And I am the only lawyer on DU.

So there.

[Stockholm]

185. hmmm

This is an alien. I can´t understand why the term "aliens" have sneaked its way into your legal system. IMO, it is RW xenophobic framing.

[solinvictus]

97. Well good...

but these damn illegals have to go. Have a nice day!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

167. But I'll bet you get your panties in a wad when southerners are called

bigots...

[Igel]

195. They're not 'southerners', they're "resident humans in the southern

portion of the United States."

'southerners' smacks of placism, assuming their physical location is their deciding characteristic.

(But seriously, this is a linguistically hideously ill-informed thread, making it hard to take it seriously.)

[LdyGuique]

99. Oh get real -- they ARE illegal. If they are immigrating

by climbing over a fence, coming in packed in the back of a truck, or in a container on a cargo ship, they are illegal aliens. Don't make this a PC issue or clean it up with "undocumented."

We as a country have a right to regulate how many alien immigrants we accept into our country annually, based on economics and resources available. Having people cut in front of the line isn't the answer for those who have been waiting, or for those who are genuinely seeking asylum. What about some Sudanese who need to get out of that genocidal turf war? What about some Rwandans caught up in that bloodbath? There are people in far dire straits than many coming in over the fence.

Hate to be the one to inform you that as of right now, over 20,000 members of the doublely illegal gang M-13 are within the country right now, as well as several other gangs of nearly equal numbers. They are drug-dealing, killing, and threatening entire systems.

I'm pro-immigration. I'm anti-uncontrolled illegal immigration. Wait til the gangs come to a community near you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

180. Rofl..I am in California in the middle of various gang turfs and you're

informing me of this fact from Alaska?

My first challenge would be to determine HOW you know 20,000 members of M-13 are here. MY next question would be whether you realize the ORIGIN of that gang had much to do with our policies in El Salvador..and what do I do about the Asian gangs 2 miles up the road from me in Little Saigon who are here LEGALLY.

My final question is...how come if a Cuban gets to shore they get to stay legally when the Marionettas are at least as dangerous as M-13?

[LdyGuique]

183. Unfortunately, Alaska isn't immune from illegal aliens

They are here and are taking jobs at the low end -- jobs that plenty of people want -- we have no field crops to pick.

This is a national issue.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

102. This is getting interesting. The usual suspects are drawn to your thread

like flies to shit.

:popcorn:

[Dutch]

184. Funny- your name seems to appear in alot of these threads too.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.:shrug:

[tinanator]

112. Here is what you can call them around here

about 98% of the workforce in the two largest industries, ag and housing construction. Not coincidentally we maintain about 20% unemployment and the lowest average wages in these counties where undocumented workers flourish. Call them what you will, but they are a problem for citizens who would probably prefer to be able to feed and house their families in decent conditions. This is not a question of racism. The idiots who are fueled by racist resentment cant see the two face betrayal by their fearless leaders for what it is, and that level of stupidity is breathtaking. Illegals is not necessarily
a racist term, doesnt dehumanize in my opinion compared to the ravages of poverty which are a companion to the bracero practices of unfettered Republican and Democratic Party protected practices.
Im all for political correctness, but going overboard lends credence to the screechs of the reactionaries. The sensible people who are best acquainted with immigration issues know whats best, and you might be surprised that they recommend protecting our border and following the law. Its a shame that the nationalist whack jobs do these issues injustice because they alienate persons of better character. The laws of economics still apply, no matter how much they are ignored by our ruling profiteers.

[solinvictus]

117. It's people who actually work or want to work for a living..

who are opposed to employers using illegals. Keep your ivory tower platitudes, thanks; like you, I'll address the reality of the situation for most blue or gray collar workers. Illegals take jobs at lower wages, ergo, their very presence in an area depresses wages and leads to increased poverty and unemployment for Americans. It's not too difficult of a concept to understand.

[tinanator]

119. I take it you arent actually responding to my post?

we seem to be in agreement. :)

[solinvictus]

122. Oh no, we agree completely!

The issue is completely economic and affects the most vulnerable workers in our society. I am so damned sick and tired of political correctness taking precedence over our own economic interests.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

137. I'm all for our government protecting our borders and I am all for not

only deporting those people who are here unlawfully and are caught, but I am ALSO for sanctioning employers who hire undocumented workers or knowingly hire workers with falsified documents.

Wanting people to be treated and referred to in more humane terms has nothing to do with my feelings on the subject of illegal immigration.

How come it's a stretch for me to claim that people who use certain terms are bigoted, but it's not a stretch for you or anyone else to assume that since I take issue with bigotry, I must be in favor of a free-for -all down at the border?

[tinanator]

148. Im trying not to assume anything

Just laying out the facts in these parts and my experience. There are many facets to discussions like these, and they are complicated by overlapping issues with divergent agendas, or is it vice versa?. I dont find "illegals" as objectionable as Wetback or a dozen other terms more frequently applied by racist church goers. A term that was in use in the 70's, perhaps as an alternative to wetback or what have you, was "nationals" and it was applied to the carloads of Mexican
farmworkers who would blow through stop signs in rural areas of grape vineyards and give you some hair raising scares if they didnt kill you outright. Reminiscent of the PETA discussion, poking at a term or topic because something bothers you may not be the most productive way of reaching a solution to an actual problem, but rather a way of creating a new problem/distraction out of whole cloth.

[Cleita]

121. That was like calling babies born to single mothers illegitimate,

back not so long ago. Imagine stigmatizing an innocent for coming into the world without her/his mother's marriage certificate tied around her/his foot. I thought about what you said while we were doing war here last week. I thought we shouldn't be calling these people illegal because it's the Americans breaking the laws of their own country who are doing illegal acts by hiring them.

[Guaranteed]

128. Is calling someone a racist or a bigot then also dehumanizing them?

Telling them they're not good Democrats, and effectively bad people, for using a technically correct and racially neutral term? Does that dehumanize people?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

131. Well, folks, to use your logic, it's calling them what they are

Now..please reread my FUCKING OP..the term was ILLEGAL not illegal alien although I'm not terribly fond of that term either....

Since I've now said that several times on this thread, I am off to the posts above to address the economic issues.

on edit: and where did I call anyone a "bad democrat?"

I did state that our party used to be a bit more reliable on issues of social justice but hey...sue me!

[CTLawGuy]

196. oh but it IS a racist term dontcha know?!

because according to the OP "illegal immigrants" are only Mexicans. So if you're talking about an illegal you MUST be talking about a mexican
:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

141. I agree

It does dehumanize them, because it's a word that has turned into a way of adding an insult to them while refering to them.

[Zomby Woof]

147. Woody heard them called "deportees" on the radio...

When the news broke of a plane crash that killed all aboard, the radio announcer said, "Well, it was just a planeload of deportees." So Woody Guthrie wrote a song about it, to put a human face on those poor, hard-working souls who lost their lives...


The crops are all in and the peaches are rotting,
The oranges are packed in their creosote dumps.
They're flying 'em back to the Mexico border
To take all their money to wade back again.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria.
You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees."

My father's own father, he waded that river.
They took all the money he made in his life.

My brothers and sisters came workin' the fruit trees,
They rode the big trucks 'till they laid down and died.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria.
You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees."

The skyplane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon,
A fireball of lightnin' an' it shook all the hills.
Who are these comrades, they're dying like the dry leaves?
The radio tells me, "They're just deportees."

We died in your hills and we died in your deserts,
We died in your valleys, we died in your plains.
We died 'neath your trees and we died 'neath your bushes,
Both sides of the river we died just the same.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria.
You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To die like the dry leaves and rot on my topsoil
And be known by no name except "deportee."

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria.
You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees."

All they will call you will be "deportees."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

154. One of my all time favorite songs...got many versions of it including

a great one by Odetta

[OldLeftieLawyer]

169. So, if................

deportees are illegal aliens who got caught and sent back, what might they be called so as not to offend the tender sensibilities of some?

Something like "involuntarily homeward-bound undocumented persons"?

[Zomby Woof]

173. Calling them deportees...

...lended itself to the radio announcer implying their deaths were unimportant, not really tragic. Nothing for red-blooded white American folks to get blue about.

"Oh, it was just deportees". Yes, I know, that is what they are in a very legalistic sense. But it's a way of stripping them of their humanity so that dying in a plane crash doesn't sound so horrible.

Modern day equivalent: "150 died today on an Arizona highway. But don't worry folks, it was just some illegals."

See? Reduce PEOPLE to a legalistic euphemism, and we can just shrug our shoulders at their demise and check the tube to see who got voted off of American Idol.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

188. That was the whole point of the song

That song is one of the most poignant and powerful messages ever delivered on behalf of how North Americans exploit illegal aliens. The first time I heard it - close to fifty years ago - it stunned me, and it has never ceased to have an effect, whenever I hear it.

Alas, while people dance around the meanings of words, and debate what to call "these people," the problems grow worse, the shouting louder, and, meanwhile, the poverty and exploitation expand.

I think this whole thread has been a marvelous exercise in the vapidity and wastefulness of how the problem is perceived. Yes, deal with the nomenclature, but does that really address anything of substance? It was good for a laugh, because I think the basic premise of the original poster was really funny (and I still think it was a belated April Fool's joke), but the problems are deadly serious and are getting worse.

[Sterling]

150. illegals dehumanize Americans when they cross the border

and take jobs from Americans. Not to mention they dehumanize themselves in the process by helping perpetuate a slave labor class.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Baloney. How many Americans have you heard say "I was really hoping

to get that job picking onions."

I have a great way to drive away the incentives to migrant laborers. Raise the minimum wage. Then Americans will want their jobs and we can criminally prosecute employers who break the law.

[powergirl]

152. WELL SAID, MY DAD AND I HAD A "DISAGREEMENT" ON THIS MATTER

My Dad was ranting that "politically correct" people use words like "undocumented workers" to obscure the crime of illegally entering the country. I told him the term illegal was used by a lot of jerks like the KKK in a pejorative manner and it was impolite. I am going to send your definition to him. :banghead:

[Terran1212]

153. I agree completely with the topic creator

Damn straight!

[Donailin]

156. Sorta like terms repukes and repugs?

We dehumanize our opposition when we use those terms also.

I'm just sayin'. .

[Freddie Stubbs]

157. And convicted felons should be called 'adjudicated people'

'Undocumented people' implies that thier main problem is that no one has documented their entry into the country. The fact is that they have broken the law by entering the country illegaly, and it gives a bad name to immigrints who do come here legally and play by the rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

165. I love that argument. It's almost as good as gay marriage threatens

straight marriage.

[Freddie Stubbs]

200. Apparently that is an argument which resonates with voters

When was the last time that a referendum banning gay marriage failed?

[theboss]

159. Does that mean Genesis is bigoted?

Got out of bed, wasn't feeling too good
With my wallet and my passport, a new pair of shoes
The sun is shining so I head for the park,
With a bottle of Tequila, and a new pack of cigarettes

I got a cousin and she got a friend,
Who thought that her aunt knew a man who could help
At his apartment I knocked on the door,
He wouldn't come out until he got paid.
Now don't tell anybody what I wanna do
If they find out you know that they'll never let me through, cos

It's no fun being an illegal alien, no
It's no fun being an illegal alien

Down at the office had to fill out the forms
A pink one, a red one, the colours you choose,
Up to the counter to see what they think
They said "it doesn't count man, it ain't written in ink".
I don't trust anybody, least not around here, cos

It's no fun being an illegal alien, I tell ya
It's no fun being an illegal alien, no no no no no
It's no fun being an illegal alien, I mean it when I tell ya that
It's no fun being an illegal alien,
An illegal alien, O.K.

Consideration for your fellow man
Would not hurt anybody, it sure fits in with my plan
Over the border, there lies the promised land
Where everything comes easy, you just hold out your hand

Keep your suspicions, I've seen that look before
But I ain't done nothing wrong now, is that such a suprise
But I've got a sister who'd be willing to oblige
She will do anything now to help me get to the outside

So don't tell anybody what I wanna do
If they find out you know that they'll never let me through, because

It's no fun being an illegal alien, I tell ya
It's no fun being an illegal alien, and it's getting me down
It's no fun being an illegal alien, no no no no no
It's no fun being an illegal alien, yeah yeah yeah

It's no fun (not much fun) being an illegal alien, I tell ya that
It's no fun being an illegal alien, I tell ya
It's no fun being an illegal alien, no no no
It's no fun (not bloody much fun) being an illegal alien,
It's no fun being an illegal alien, and that's what I am.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

166. The song is about their plight, no?

And did you bother to read my response to you
here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3480514&mesg_id=3481775

Because your continued use of another term other than the one to which I objected makes me wonder if this is about a debate or sophistry. :shrug:

[Radio-Active]

171. I'd love it if people called me "illegal"

[tyedyeto]

172. Here, here NSMA!!!! n/t

[Blue-Jay]

174. I'm going to have to disagree on this one, my friend.

If a person is earning wages in this country and is "undocumented", they are breaking the law, as are their employers. In other words, they are engaging in an illegal activity. Shortening the reference to them by using the term "illegals" is not dehumanizing, nor is it racially motivated. Anyone who engages in this behavior is breaking the law.

I don't think that your problem is with the word, per se, but rather with the misuse of the word when referring only to Hispanics.

I understand where you're coming from on this issue, but I think that you're over-thinking the semantics. ANY word that is used to refer to a specific group can be dehumanizing depending on the context of the user. For instance, we've all heard the word "liberal" be misused on a daily basis as an implied insult, but when said in that particular context it only shows the ignorance of the user.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

175. Good point but we don't call the employers "illegals", now do we?

[Blue-Jay]

177. No, but maybe we should.

No demand = no supply. As long as (illegal) employers insist on offering less than a living wage, we're going to have illegal immigrants filling those positions.

That's a whole 'nother discussion, however. I was merely commenting on the intentional misuse of the language to convey a purposefully (and likely false) negative image. Manipulating the vocabulary for the sake of political fellatio makes Baby Jesus cry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

181. But it's NOT a whole nother discussion..and bigotry plays right

into the hands of the powerful since THEY ARE NOT the target of all this aggression.

[tyedyeto]

182. What about this thread on DU?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3478664&mesg_id=3478664

The title ('Minutemen fighting against Corporate Slavery') suggests that is what the 'Minutemen' are doing, but nowhere have I ever read (and I live in AZ) that they are protesting Corporate America, only those seeking a better life for their families.

[tyedyeto]

176. What would you call their employers? Aren't they doing.......

something illegal also?

[The Whiskey Priest]

178. Deportee?

They are flying them out......Los Gatos

Yes, you must first dehumanize...before you fire up the ovens.

[Maru Kitteh]

179. Undocumented workers or

Undocumented residents. I am for very open but VERY secure and controlled immigration. Our immigration policy is a farce, what we need is some honesty.

[woosh]

186. Foreign-Born Works

is the term I've always liked. It takes the value judgment of "status" out of it. But admittedly, it's probably a little IWW for folks.

[Misunderestimator]

187. "Illegals" ... definitely dehumanizing

Just finished reading this thread and am amazed at the lengths to which some "liberals" will go to justify their bigotry. Disheartening.

[DebinTx]

192. Sorry but that's what they are

and I really don't like the term alien but illegal is a fitting name because that's what they are. It is a short concise term and there's nothing derrogatory about it. Anyone who is in this country without coming through the proper channels is an illegal.

Do you know what Mexicans call Americans? Illegal is mild, comparatively speaking.

[lateo]

197. Are they in America illegally?

Um...why yes...they are...

Now...if I called them a "spic" or a "wetback"...you might have a point.

[Walt Starr]

198. Okay, from now on I'll just call them what they are, CRIMINALS! n/t

[Walt Starr]

201. Anybody who enters this nation illegally...

Is an ILLEGAL ALIEN, no matter how much bullshit somebody spews to try and make the term politically incorrect. It;s apt. It applies, ergo, I will continue to use it regardless of any self proclaimed thought cop!

[Freddie Stubbs]

202. Perhaps instead of call them 'names'

We should just call the INS. :shrug:

[Moderator]

203. Locking.....

This is continuing an argument from
another thread and it has become
inflammatory.


DU Moderator