Why hitting kids is a bad idea

[_TJ_]

That recent story on DU about those creeps who whip their
infant to 'break its will' brought me very close to being seriously
physically ill. I've actually been quite wary of coming to DU
since I read it in case any similar stories got posted.

Stories like this, as well as suggestions by some DUers that the
handcuffed 5-year-old in Florida 'just needs a good spanking' really
F*CK ME OFF!!

I was often hit as a kid, and I can tell you it didn't improve me
or make my life better in any way!

I have written a little article to explain why I feel this way.

http://www.iol.ie/~gerb/ramblings/hitting/


Edit: Grammar fixed.

[ananda]

All hitting does..

.. is teach kids how to hit and be violent.

Sue

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Great essay!

:thumbsup:

[_TJ_]

35. Hey thanks I appreciate that

:thumbsup:

[redqueen]

2. Creeps who whip their infant?

My God... what the hell is going on?!

:cry:

[SteppingRazor]

3. Here's a good reason why not to hit your kid....

Because it's wrong.

Sheesh. And they call us liberals "moral relativists."

[IrateCitizen]

4. Hitting and spanking are not the same thing

I was never hit as a child. But, on rare occasion, I was spanked.

My parents never did it out of anger, never used an object outside of a paintstick (it gave a good smart w/o the force required for a hand), and never spanked me anywhere other than on my backside.

The result of such instances, especially when in public, were more embarassment than anything.

I do not consider myself to be at all abused. If you choose NOT to ever spank your child, that's all well and good. However, don't portray spanking as being equivalent to hitting, because they are NOT the same thing.

[_TJ_]

7. That is an empty rationalisation

When you spank you hit.

[IrateCitizen]

9. Whatever.

I've expressed my opinion, and you've expressed yours. I just want it to be clear that there are people here at DU who do not equate spanking with hitting.

[_TJ_]

12. spanking is hitting

To spank someone you have to hit them on the ass with something.
To deny that is perverse.

[redqueen]

18. Obviously.

I really don't get how smacking a child on the rear end with your hand is not hitting.

Rationalization?

[IrateCitizen]

20. Like I said... whatever.

I've stated my opinion and you've stated yours. There is absolutely nothing -- repeat, NOTHING -- that you could say to dissuade me from my opinion on this matter. My parents were extremely kind, loving and encouraging of me while growing up and now as an adult. And they spanked me, on rare occasions, when my behavior was completely unacceptable.

I was not "hit", I was spanked. Spanking has a specific purpose, hitting is a reaction or aggressive act.

To deny that is perverse.

Perhaps in your eyes, yes. But it seems that there are several here who agree with me, so you might not be as infallible as you would like to believe.

[_TJ_]

25. Wow NOTHING I could say would change your mind

pretty closed mind if you ask me.

Others agree with you? Two wrongs don't make a right!

[IrateCitizen]

29. No, NOTHING -- because my view is based on personal experience.

My parents are very caring, kind, liberal-leaning people (well, I brought my dad around over the past 6-7 years or so). They raised me to believe that EVERYONE has value, and to treat them as such. They raised me to be curious, inquisitive, and questioning of everything around me.

And they also spanked me on rare occasions. And I turned out just fine.

So, based on my personal experience in this matter, no, there is NOTHING you could say that would change my point of view on this matter.

Others agree with you? Two wrongs don't make a right!

No, all that this means is that there are plenty of others out there who had experiences similar to mine, and who believe that while spanking should certainly be a last resort, there are times that it is appropriate, and it is not something that is done to injure or harm the child in any way.

[_TJ_]

31. Maybe you should re-examine your prejudices

There may be a reason why you live in the most violent society
in the western world and have the most people locked up in jail.

Perhaps if you were less accepting of violence towards children
they would grow up to be less violent adults!

Are you completely unwilling to learn *anything* from Sweden - the
least violent society in the world?

[IrateCitizen]

41. I'm willing to learn from my own experiences first...

... and from research second.

My own experience tells me that my being spanked on rare occasions did NOT make me violent, did NOT cause me to grow up a psychopath, and did NOT result in my hating or fearing my parents.

Once again, that's not some grand metaphysical research paper -- that's my own personal experience. You're not asking me to "re-examine my prejudices" -- you're telling me that my entire personal experience in this matter is completely incorrect, and that I should instead completely accept what you're peddling as the "correct" reality.

Sorry, but my personal experience in this matter is going to continue to be my benchmark, and there is little that you can do to convince me otherwise so long as your attempts spring from the supposition that my experiences are somehow wrong and invalid.

[_TJ_]

44. Look at the evidence

America - 90% of parents have hit their kids - most violent society
in the west, more people in jail than anywhere else.

Sweden - nobody hits kids - least violent society in the west, very small prison population.

If that doesn't suggest that the Swedes have the right attitude to
raising kids then nothing will!

[IrateCitizen]

47. I look at the evidence every time I look in the mirror...

My parents spanked me on rare occasions when my behavior warranted it. I grew up into a well-adjusted young man. I have a wonderful relationship with my parents.

Like I said previously, the angle you've taken is to try and portray my personal experiences as invalid, and present yourself as possessing the only correct view. Do you honestly expect to persuade people with that kind of tactic? After dealing with you on this thread, I honestly don't really care WHAT you posted, because your self-righteous airs have so completely turned me off to anything meaningful you might have to say.

[_TJ_]

51. Did you even read my essay?

It really appears you did not.

I never said everyone who got hit turned out bad - I actually
turned out ok! That was in spite of being hit - not because of it.

My basic point is that lots of people who got hit turned out
badly. Why take chances like that with people you care about?

Just because you and I turned out ok, that doesn't mean hitting kids
is a good idea - it causes enormous damage to some kids.

You need to look BEYOND your own personal experience to see the
big picture. I'm not sure why you are unwilling to do this.

[trotsky]

54. Hold on... that's an unwarranted leap.

There are many, many more factors involved when comparing prison populations in the U.S. and Sweden. You cannot logically pick one variable - the rate of spanking - and say that it alone leads to the difference. After all, the U.S. is also 90% religious believers, Sweden much less so, does that mean religious belief is responsible for our higher incarceration rate?

I'm not going to take a position one way or the other regarding spanking, I only wanted to point out your logical error.

[_TJ_]

56. I'm not saying banning spanking is the only reason Sweden is doing so well

But I am saying they know how to raise kids better there. Not
hitting them is a big part of that.

If you raise kids properly you will get a less violent society and
fewer people in jail.

The Swedes just have a much better attitude to violence in general!

[trotsky]

59. The Swedes have a better attitude towards a lot of things.

And it's impossible to assume that even "the way they raise kids" is necessarily 100%, or even mostly, responsible for their lower rate of violence.

[retnavyliberal]

83. I question that stat.

90%??? In this day and age? I have friends that grabbed her child's arm in a store as the child was about to pull a rack of cans over on herself get turned in for abuse. I do not have the numbers at my fingers, but I would be interested to see the stats on the rate of increase in child misbehavior compared to the DECREASE in the rate of households that use spanking as a means of discipline.

As we saw on that video. Saying "Don't do that or by golly I am going to tell you not to do it again" does not always seem to work.

I agree with IRATE, and we have had a few friendly disagreements, so me agreeing with her may go a long way to changing her position :-)

[redqueen]

32. How does spanking not harm?

It's terrifying for the child, I'm sure.

The one or two people you trust the most in the world are hurting you. Scaring you.

I can't see that it's ever appropriate.

[IrateCitizen]

38. Nope, it was never that way for me

The one or two people you trust the most in the world are hurting you. Scaring you.

On the rare occasions that my parents spanked me, I knew that it was for doing something I damned well shouldn't have done. The only thing they were hurting when they did that was my pride, by making me realize that there had to be limits to my behavior. And it never resulted in me being scared of them -- rather, it was the temporary fear of the consequences of my actions.

Once again, I'm not speaking from an existentialist viewpoint here -- I'm speaking from my own personal experience. Some parents are able to raise kids fine without spanking at all, and that's very good for them. However, applying the "one-size-fits-all" approach that says that spanking is bad in every instance is just plain nonsense, IMHO.

[Lilith Velkor]

86. Yeah, context is important.

My mom used to hit me all the time. No warning, just BAM, then start yelling at me for crying.

My nanny spanked me but always made sure I knew why beforehand. I still don't have a problem with that.

[Dutch]

48. agreed- spanking is just a cosy word for hitting

Whether you think it's right or wrong (and I think it's wrong), I think that's a reality that needs to be faced.

[hfojvt]

70. reality is that if you eliminate qualitative distinctions

then language becomes pretty confusing. Clearly you "hit" when you spank, but you hit with an open hand. If you use the generic term "hitting" to describe "spanking" or "slapping" then what is your term to use for "hitting with a closed fist"? That is what most people think of when they hear the word "hitting". You could call that "punching" or "pounding" or "beating" but it is definitely qualitatively different than spanking and it does happen to children. So when you say that spanking is hitting you seem to be trying to put in the same boat a parent who spanks and a parent who beats and a parent who whips. Is that what you are trying to do?

The ironic thing with a punitive parenting approach is that it is also society's approach. For example, criminal robs a victim, criminal gets put in jail. Society's answer is to hurt the offender rather than make things right with the offendee.

It reminds me of the show "Leave it to Beaver". Often there is a problem and the Beav says "Gosh Wally, what are we going to do?" and Wally, unlike any kid alive says "Well, chee Beav, I don't know, maybe we oughta tell dad." Then Ward, unlike any dad alive, calmly fixes the problem. Most dads would pitch a fit and scream and berate even if they do not hit. So in the real world, the Beaver should say: "Hello, Wally, what is our worst case scenario? It starts like this - dad finds out. So telling dad - is not an option."

[_TJ_]

72. I've been slapped and punched

Both suck. Both should never happen. Actually I preferred getting punched - it wasn't as demeaning for a teenager! Slapping a
16 year old boy like he's a little kid is fucking degrading.

[hfojvt]

81. on the news right now

they are showing that 40 children died in the last 8 years from child abuse in the Kansas City area. Chances are very good that none of them were killed by a spanking. If society cannot even stop these killings from happening, it is quite unreasonable to expect that no one should ever be slapped. Chances are there are many things a child could do to avoid a spanking. I have had kids wreck my stuff and get on my nerves too, and I do not think that should ever happen either. Adult life often becomes impossible or very aggravating when kids are around, but it is not a perfect world. I just think it would be a better one if people had better manners and more consideration.

[Bethany Rockafella]

8. I agree. Nothing wrong with spanking their little bottoms.

I was never spanked as a child but my brothers and sisters were because they were some bad asses. They turned out fine.

[_TJ_]

15. What about Hitler?

He got spanked BIG TIME by his dad. Did he turn out fine?

Hitting your kids does not guarantee that you'll f*ck them up.
But it does increase the odds that you will. The more you hit
them the bigger risk you take. Why take that chance with someone
you care about?

[Bethany Rockafella]

23. Oh, so you bring Hitler in this.

You're goanna lose if you want parents to stop spanking their kids. Whatever.

[_TJ_]

26. Not just Hitler - most violent criminals were hit as kids

The prisons are bursting with violent convicts who learned at a
young age that violence is ok because their parents hit them.

[IrateCitizen]

24. Hitler didn't get "spanked" -- he got BEATEN by his father.

Once again, wielding the broad brush of absolutism can get one to some pretty significant mischaracterizations.

[Adelante]

52. I think you're right

In the past 20 years or so I've seen children behaving in astonishingly disrespectful ways in public, as well as in private, ways that would have gotten me a crack on the butt in two seconds. Hell, when I was a kid any lady up the street had implicit permission to discipline a misbehaving child in the neighborhood. If you cried to your mother, she'd say, so what did you do that Mrs. So and So had to hit you?

It wasn't Sweden, but this country was a whole lot less violent as a society when spanking was an ordinary, if unpleasant, part of childrearing. I had six brothers and sisters, and many nieces and nephews, all spanked, all good responsible citizens, all well-mannered and not a single one violent.

The important element is love. If the child is and feels loved. A kid knows when he or she has done something to deserve it and it is not threatening or earthshaking, it's dues.

So I agree with you that spanking, naturally not carried far enough to be termed beating, is a necessary part of teaching kids how to conduct themselves in life and to recognize there are consequences to actions.

About absolutism, too...

[woodsprite]

36. I was spanked as a kid and there are sometimes kids

NEED to be spanked. I was spanked the one time I sneaked (snuck -- whatever the right word is) over the back fence to go down to the creek. Someplace I was forbidden to go without an adult. Alot of druggies down there, not to mention, fast running water and a slippery embankment. I also remember being spanked when I was caught playing with the stove and when I darted out of the house and across the busy street we lived on. Oh, yeah, and let's not forget the time I was at my friends house and hooked a metal slinky up to the light fixture in the center of the room. My friends mom came in and flipped the switch on and sparks flew everywhere.

One single 30 min. timeout worked wonders for my daughter. Where, on the other hand, my son needs the "stand in the corner while I sit there and watch you" approach. And, yes, we have had to spank him on occasion. If he needs it, I prefer to the be one to do it because I know I don't spank hard. No red marks, doesn't sting my hand, etc. Hubby, on the other hand, even hurts sometimes when he's tickling you.

Looking at that first paragraph, it's amazing I've made it to 42yo. And I think I was spared my mother's curse with my first born, but I'm not so sure on my 2nd born. Her curse amounted to her wishing that I'd have 15 kids just like me.

[wideopen]

11. Exactly!

[Maine-ah]

14. I agree with you. I was spanked as a kid, I don't feel "abused" either.

and I think there is nothing wrong with a little swat across the butt, it can really get the message across to a child who is severely mis-behaving.

[_TJ_]

21. Yeah, teach them PAIN and FEAR

That'll get the message across to 'em alright :eyes:

[Maine-ah]

46. Pain and Fear?

Eh, not what I learned from it. Not what my sister and brothers learned from it either.:eyes:

[_TJ_]

50. Hitting someone causes PAIN. They then obey because they are AFRAID

Simple enough for you :eyes:

[Maine-ah]

67. I was not affraid.

I was being bad, not listening, so I got spanked. It got my attention back where it should have been. No belts, no bare butts, just a spank on the butt.

Look, I'm not telling you how to raise your kids, and don't tell me how to raise mine. I don't feel a swat on the butt is that outrageous once all else has failed.

[luvLLB]

53. i agree with you, I was spanked as a kid, and I was NOT abused,

however, my husband was beat as a child, THAT was abuse. I dont care how you ice the cake, there is a diffrence.

[Amaya]

16. Very well said!

[Karenina]

37. My parents had a routine

when we were non-compliant.

Pick it up and put it away properly. One.
Pick it up and put it away properly. Two.
The LIMIT was 5 as the paddle came out or belt off between 3 & 4.
I pushed the envelope and ran ONCE. It was 50 years ago and YES, I remember quite clearly.

I wailed on my older son's butt ONCE. After warning him NOT to respond to "provocation" he pulled his younger brother off the top bunk and I caught him centimeters before his head hit the floor. Big bro got a hearty STINGING SLAP on the butt. "You HIT me!!!" We talked for 45 minutes.

I NEVER had the need to use corporal punishment again. I'd simply ask if I needed to go there, they always said NO. BOTH knew I meant bidness.

[_TJ_]

40. You didn't need to do that

I'm sure your son was smart enough to understand that he would
have hurt his brother without having you hit him.

What sort of message does "don't hurt your brother or I'll hit you"
send anyway? Hitting teaches that hurting someone is ok!

[Karenina]

79. Do YOU have children?

That single smack worked miracles. Mom means SQUARE BIDNESS. She ain't just blowing smoke. As a single mom with male kids one needs to set the order real straight, real early. :evilgrin:
They're both adults now and remember the incident. Good thing too, they're bigger than me but still know where the LINE IN THE SAND is!!! ;-)

[H2O Man]

82. I always try to read your posts

because you are one of the people I have the most respect for on DU. However, in this case, I respectfully disagree. Spanking is a form of hitting. It is not always "abuse" in the legal sense. But it is always a form of hitting.

[RoundRockD]

5. You're not a good christian if you don't hit your kids.

According to Pastor John Hagee (sp?), men are cowards if they don't hit their kids.

[noonwitch]

6. Spanking vs. hitting

Spanking with the hand on the buttocks is okay by me, as long as no skin is broken and no lasting marks or bruises are made. It's not the best way to teach your kids, but there are circumstances in which I think it's okay. Your very young kid runs out in the street and scares the daylights out of you-the kid isn't really old enough to understand reason at this point, but you have to let him know his behavior is completely unacceptable. Slapping a toddler's hand to keep him from touching a hot oven is also okay.

The older a kid gets, the less effective physical discipline is. That leads to parents losing their tempers and control, and possibly injuring the kid. Eventually, the kid is big enough to strike back and hurt the parent. It's better to adapt disciplinary techniques long before this stage, to time outs and privilege witholding.

My mom used to beat the crap out of my little sister with a wooden spoon. It wasn't very effective in the long run. My sister could take it and would say "It doesn't hurt". Her behavior only escalated, and by the time she was a teenager, she would tell my mom "try and stop me" when she decided to do something my mom didn't like. At this point, it was too late to stop her bad behavior. Luckily, she was a good kid who didn't get into trouble.

[_TJ_]

10. That's exactly what happened to me

If my folks hadn't started to hit me in the first place it never
would have happened!

We only started to relate to each other properly when they stopped
hitting me at age 12.

[CBGLuthier]

13. Another thing that some people don;t seem to consider

We aren't all wired the same.

Some of us have social problems. We don't adjust well. And all the beatings and spankings in the world do not (did not) help.

In a perfect world, schools would identify kids like that, and try to help them to adjust. But when I was growing up they didn;t recognize Aperger's. So I was beaten at school by teachers and students. I was beaten at home. I quit school when I was 16 rather than take one more beating.

Now, 25 years later I know why I had those problems. I have gotten better.

But I still will never forgive the authority figures who paddled me because I didn't fit in.

[geniph]

19. One size most certainly does not fit all

I was both spanked and beaten. The spankings were effective - for ME - in teaching me not to repeat certain actions, as they had undesirable consequences. The beatings were effective in teaching me to fear and hate those who abused me. They were very different things, and even as a small child, I knew the difference.

On the other hand, one of my brothers was almost certainly what would now be considered clinically hyperactive and ADHD. He acted out in some very dangerous and harmful fashions. Beating, spanking, scolding - none of that had the slightest effect on him, except to make him more defiant. They tried to beat the misbehavior out of him, and just made him infinitely worse. He laughed at spankings. There are kids for whom spanking is the absolute worst thing you can do. There are others who recognize a swat on the bottom for what it is, and avoid the behavior that brought it about.

Anyone who thinks you can treat every child the same and expect the same results knows very little about children. Different children call for different methods. The intelligent and caring parent modifies their techniques based on what works best with that child, both to teach them the consequences of undesirable behavior, and to motivate them toward good behavior.

[AndyTiedye]

69. What If the Kid Enjoys the "Punishment

one of my brothers was almost certainly what would now be considered clinically hyperactive and ADHD.... They tried to beat the misbehavior out of him, and just made him infinitely worse. He laughed at spankings.

Sounds to me like he enjoys being spanked.

What good is spanking as punishment if the kid regards it as a reward?

[bloom]

75. "He laughed at spankings."

You wrote, "Sounds to me like he enjoys being spanked".


Sometimes it's more complicated than that. With my son - I could give normal consequences like no TV or whatever (until he did what he was supposed to do) and it made a difference.

My (Asperger's) daughter - was determined to undermine anything I might come up with. She would choose not to watch TV - if that was the deal. If it was go to your room for 15 minutes - she would stay there for days. If I had said - no dessert - she might have stopped eating. (I really had the to think about the consequences of my consequences). There was no way that spanking would have ever helped. (Fortunately she was well behaved for the most part.)

I think the "laughing at spankings" is a way to pretend one has control.

[AndyTiedye]

88. Could Be

I think the "laughing at spankings" is a way to pretend one has control.

My (Asperger's) daughter - was determined to undermine anything I might come up with. She would choose not to watch TV - if that was the deal. If it was go to your room for 15 minutes - she would stay there for days. If I had said - no dessert - she might have stopped eating. (I really had the to think about the consequences of my consequences).

Smart girl! She did more than pretend she had control!

There was no way that spanking would have ever helped.

If she were overloaded, it would have overloaded here even more.

(Fortunately she was well behaved for the most part.)

Aspies usually are, as long as one does not mistake an inability to
sit still for "bad behavior" (a common failing in schoolteachers).

[redqueen]

22. That's the saddest thing - the logic seems to be when all else fails, hit.

I'm sorry that happened to you. :pals:

[AndyTiedye]

87. Probably Helped Make a Masochist Out of Me

I have long since forgiven those who hit me. ;-)
They taught me how to make pleasure out of pain.

when I was growing up they didn;t recognize Aperger's.

Nobody had bothered to translate Dr. Asperger's work into English.
Now you'd think a significant number of shrinks here would know German,
considering how all the earliest work in the field is in that language,
but NOOOOOO.

So I was beaten at school by teachers and students. I was beaten at home. I quit school when I was 16 rather than take one more beating.

I didn't get paddled, but OTOH, the teachers seemed to have a
"100% tolerance" policy on bullying. When I complained, they'd say
I had brought it on myself. By existing, as near as I could tell.
Teachers didn't like me because I couldn't sit still and stare at them
in rapt attention while they droned on. More likely I'd be staring out
the window. But I'd get the question right anyway when they called on me.

Being small and uncoordinated, I was a natural target for the bullies.
By high school, I had become something of a puzzle to them.
They'd hit me in the stomach and I'd just smile at them.
That seemed to really freak them out.:-)

[jedr]

17. Very despot in history was the result of physical abuse,

The little girl in fla was obviously very agitated about something...she was probably physically abused because of the fact that's how she saw fit to solve her problems....I also bet. that if they dig deep enough ,that sexual abuse is in there too.

[redqueen]

27. You're absolutely right - there is no reason to hit (spank) a child.

That's an EXCELLENT essay, and I hope the pro-hitters on this thread are not just kneejerking, and are taking the time to read it before automatically defending hitting children.

I'm curious about this part:

"Many countries around the world have realised that hitting children is very damaging to the kids - and to society in general. Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, Croatia, Israel, and Latvia have all gone as far as making hitting a child illegal."

Does this mean 'spanking' (hitting in a loving way, I guess?) is illegal there? I mean, do they define any kind of hitting to be illegal? Beating your kids isn't exactly legal here, but obviously spanking is, at least in TX.

I hate that we measure out physical pain so that we can be granted permission to dole it out to those we supposdly love the most.

*sigh*

[_TJ_]

28. All hitting is illegal in Sweden

But the courts don't punish the parents for it - they educate them
with parenting lessons.

[redqueen]

33. Education is so obviously what's sorely needed...

glad to see it's working for those families lucky enough to live there.

[doodadem]

30. Abuse vs Spanking

Well, I have to say, my mother was a little on the extreme side, and did slip over into abuse. Her tool of choice was a leather belt, and we were terrified of her.
BUT--we were always told, if you get a paddling at school, you'll get it 3 times as bad when you get home. It certainly does make for a quiet and cooperative child. And it's probably why I'm such a mouthy troublemaker in my old age!
I do think there's some middle ground somewhere. We've all been in the grocery where some kid was running amok, while the mom was saying, now honey, stop that. I think what's missing now days is, "The Look". If you were out in public, and you received "The Look" from either parent, you quieted right down because you knew if you didn't, you were going to be taken behind the woodshed when you got home. There did not have to be any public displays, that now, would get you charged with child abuse.

[noiretextatique]

34. i don't condone hitting children...my culture does

the african-american culture, in particular. there is a saying that goes something like this: "i'm beating you now so the cops won't kill you later."
i've heard a lot of out-the-top abuse stories from friends...beatings with extention cords that left marks, and so on.

[_TJ_]

39. That's gonna make it WORSE!

If you beat a kid you'll get a violent adult. Then it's more
trouble with the law instead of less.

I've read that African-American parents tend to use physical means to
teach their kids because slave owners whipped their ancestors and
it got ingrained in the culture. What do you think?

Did you know the wooden paddles they use in American schools to
beat kids were originally invented to chastise slaves without
leaving marks!

[noiretextatique]

45. personally, i think people who feel powerless

are more likely to take out their frustrations on those who are less powerful than them. culturally speaking, i think that explains the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality that i believe is a lot more prevalent in traditionally oppressed groups.

[MXMLLN]

55. More realistically ...

... members of oppressed groups know that if they, as parents, cannot rein in their child's behaviour, ... they are risking that their child will more likely suffer abuse from society (i.e. prison, police brutality, death, etc.) for their inability to rein in their behaviour.

My mother ... who successfully raised five African-American boys and one African-American girl ... very lovingly admonished us that she would much rather hurt us a little now ... than to see us imprisoned, maimed, ... or dead later.

[_TJ_]

57. But you weren't stupid kids right?

I'm sure you could have understood this without your mom having
to hit you!

[MXMLLN]

63. No more stupid than any other kids whose parents limit their misbehaviour.

If kids could understand all of this with just a hug ... there would be no need for any type of parental discipline (i.e. time-outs, withholding of privileges, etc.).

[noiretextatique]

60. that's not exactly realistic, is it?

when you consider how many of us are in the JUSTUS system. and considering the EPIDEMIC of violence among our young people, particularly young men. perhaps all those parents spared the rod?!?! probably not. the truth is, violence can actually produce even more angry and powerless people. it also undermines self-esteem. i think the point a lot of people need to get: a one-shoe-fits-all type of punishement doesn't work the same way on all children.
and...didn't you mom's reasoning for her discipline stem from our lack of power as african-americans in american society?

[MXMLLN]

64. There are reasons enough as to why we are over-represented ...

... in the penal system. I know some peers who have had experience in the penal system ... and some of them got spanked ... and some of them didn't .. but, probably, none of them was spanked as much as I was.

My mother probably overused the spanking tool ... she was regarded as the most strict mother on the block ... but we never doubted for a moment that she loved us and had our best interests at heart.

Fortunately not one of my (5) siblings (or myself) has experienced a lasting run-in with the law (and we have rounded the corner towards retirement) ... and for that, I am extremely grateful ... however it was wrought.

[noiretextatique]

65. good for you...i suspect your mom

taught you some solid values that kept you on the right track.

[MXMLLN]

66. Yeah ... that too. n/t

[thecai]

42. Understandable

My family was extremely abusive while I was growing up, I went the opposite extreme with my child. I swatted him very rarely, but once I did beat him and got into trouble for it. Later, he used that experience to "get away with more" thinking I couldn't do anything about it, until one day I said "Son, if you don't stop this NOW, I will beat your ass. You wont have to call the police, jail would be a vacation for me right now, I'll call the police on me." He knew I was serious and he behaved. He grew up to become the sweetest, most respectful, decent man I know.

[Judi Lynn]

43. So glad you took the time to write your thoughts out, and post them here.

You have gained some transcendence after your experiences. Some, like me, are still very, very angry.

I gained a total sense hatred, disgust, horror, and, in later life, sickened, disappointed understanding of people I surely consider ill prepared to be responsible for children.

If people cannot assure their children a safe, loving home they should respect life enough to not have them, or, in the case of teachers, to stay away from the youngest ones. How easy it is for undiagnosed criminals to claim they abuse children to instruct them.

There IS no justification. EVER.

Simple non-violent (physical and emotional) good conduct will get the job done.

On edit: Thank you, again.

[_TJ_]

49. Thank you for your understanding

I was one of the lucky ones. My parents got smart when I was 12
and I have loved them both ever since. I'm still pretty damn
angry with some of my teachers though :-)

[VelmaD]

58. Some observations...

from someone with a degree in Social Work and a lot of coursework in human behavior to get it. Most of the research into disciplining children has come to the conclusion that spanking is not normally a good idea. If over-used it teaches children that if you are bigger and stronger then you can force people to do what you want.

Spanking should be reserved for THE MOST serious occasions...when the child is putting their own or someone else's life or safety at risk.

If you use other means of discipline and hold back spanking for only the most serious situations, then it has much more impact when it may be the only way to get the point across to a child that their behavior is dangerous and cannot happen again.

[_TJ_]

61. good points

But if the child is about to do something dangerous you can still
hold them and explain why they are doing something bad. If they
are unable to understand that then whacking them on the ass is
likely to add confusion to the lesson IMO.

[VelmaD]

62. I think you are correct in most cases...

however there are very rare exceptions. If a toddler is running out into the street or sticking pennies in light sockets they may not be at a stage developmentally where explaining to them is effective. A quick, light tap on the butt may be the only thing that works. However, it should not EVER cause pain and should not be used in the VAST majority of cases. It's more of a psychological thing to get their attention and let them know "NO".

[gollygee]

68. Even just spanking can escalate

First, spanking is a type of hitting. Not the most extreme type of hitting, but a type of hitting none the less.

Second, parents can begin with just a swat on the bottom, but what happens when the behavior happens again? You have to punish more. Punishments always seem to escalate. If you start with a punishment that involves hitting, when it escalates it is either the duration or the intensity of the hitting that will change.

Also, some parents intend to just hit but lose control. I know not all parents do, but more do than would ever admit it.

[morgan2]

71. the sheep need to be beat

let them know whose boss.

[_TJ_]

73. I hope that was an Ironic post !

[Bouncy Ball]

74. While I hold no judgement in my heart for parents who

have spanked their kids (I DO hold judgement for those who continue to do so, even after they learn how harmful it is, and for those who are clearly abusing their children), hitting in any form is just never a very good policy.

It's degrading, the kid learns it's ok to hit as long as you are bigger than the person you are hitting, and it's at best a short-term control, anyway.

I don't want my kid being well-behaved because she lives in fear of being hit, I want her to be well-behaved because she learned to be so through direct teaching (talking) and through positive reinforcement, or in some cases, grounding (which is, of course, a form of punishment). But not hitting.

All that being said, when she was younger, we did spank her a few times (probably three times when she was around five). I'm not going to hang myself on the cross for it (thus I have a hard time being all self-righteous with other parents), but both my husband and I DID see how worthless it is as a teaching tool and how harmful it can be, so we stopped after only those few times.

I'm thankful we were able to learn. The ones who say they don't do it in anger freak me out more than the ones who do, because then it's just cold and calculated. At least when done in anger, that impulse is *understandable.* What I cannot understand is not even being angry and deciding "I am going to hit him in a few minutes." Eeek. The few times we did spank her, we WERE angry. We used our hand. Her butt. A few swats. No physical injury done. BUT. One clue that it wasn't a good thing was how shitty both of us felt about it. That told us something.

I don't like to think on it now. And I don't think she's irreversibly damaged because of it. (It's been five years.) She's a great, happy, well-behaved kid. But I shudder to think if we hadn't been reflective about that practice. Not every kid who is spanked is abused or grows up horribly damaged (as long as it's something that was extremely RARE), but there is *too much potential* for it there to use the practice in any form, in my opinion.

There's no hitting in this house.

Edit: for anyone who thinks kids NEED to be spanked, there are much better, more effective ways of teaching kids proper behavior than hitting. There really are. The word discipline comes from a word that means "to teach." Unfortunately the word discipline has come to be associated with "punishment," which is not accurate. If you discipline your children, it doesn't mean you PUNISH them (though that may be one tool you use to TEACH), it simply means you teach them how to behave in a civilized society. That's all. And there are many ways to teach which don't involve physical force.

[_TJ_]

76. Bouncy, you are like unto a god

I seriously love you! :thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

78. Well I seriously love YOU!

:hug:

[redqueen]

84. Fantastic post, BB

'specially that last part.

:hug:

[bloom]

77. Thanks for your post

Even though I don't remember of my dad ever spanking me - spanking my siblings was enough... I don't think kids being afraid of their parents is a good thing.

[lolamio]

80. Here is the link to another good article about the dangers of spanking

http://207.0.106.124/stang2.htm

I'll also read your article later when I have more time! :)

[redqueen]

85. Thanks!

Great info there.

Myth #1. Being spanked never hurt anybody.
Myth #2: I was spanked, and I'm okay.
Myth #3: Some children need a good, hard spanking.
Myth #4: Spanking is the best way to stop dangerous behavior in toddlers.
Myth #5: Being spanked keeps children out of trouble.
Myth #6: Nothing but spanking works on some children.
Myth #7: Spanking isn't hitting or violence-it's discipline.
Myth #8: Spanking is not harmful if it's done by loving, supportive parents.

[Taxloss]

89. Great essay.

I would add that the UK is progressing law to make hitting children illegal.