EMOTION vs. REASON: Why Rove is a Failure

[Beetwasher]

Karl Rove is not nearly the "genius" people give him credit for. He LOST the 2,000 election, remember? They stole the whitehouse through thuggery. He's a ham fisted goon and and a bully and all he knows is how to clobber people over the head. That doesn't always work, which is why he's failing miserably now. Bullies collapse when confronted, and you're witnessing that happen to Rove. It's out of his control and he's in way over his head. People have always given him too much credit. A real genius with his resources (the sycophantic media) would never have let it detoriate this far...

And this is where the admin. finds themselves now; having to backtrack away from the Iraq-9/11 implication. This is going to fail and fail miserably and in fact backfire and it may destroy the admin. Cheney may be the first casualty.

The admin. relied on an emotional reaction to the Iraq-9/11 implications and boy did they get it. This was an EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT on their part to sell the war. Now they want to backtrack and use a LOGICAL/REASONABLE argument to save their asses. It doesn't compute and it won't work. It will only make people angry and confused. The difference is way too subtle for most people to grasp, especially for people who were forced fed raw, powerful emotions over the affair. There's no going back to logic after that. This is why Rove is a FAILURE. He doesn't understand this type of situation.

[BurtWorm]

1. Well said.

But notice how hard it is for them to give up the emotional investment. Will Bush ever stop talking about the resistance to the US occupation as "terrorism?" I don't think so.

[LearnedHand]

2. Tinfoil hat devil's advocate, here:

I'd love to believe what you're describing is true.

BUT, what if this is going according to plan? What if the WH is going to "sacrifice" Cheney so he can quietly go spend his m(b)illions with Halliburton and the WH can install *Colin Powell* as VP?

Wouldn't that make sense as a countermove to Clark coming into the race? Despite all the stupid lies, etc., Americans seem to like Powell. The WH would have its own general to counter the Dem's general.

:tinfoilhat: & :evilfrown:

[Beetwasher]

4. This would be a round-about way to do it

If they wanted to change the ticket and get a new VP because of Clark or whatever, Cheney could just leave for "health reasons". Why the elaborate plan? It doesn't make sense. They are resorting to the truth as a LAST resort. They are backtracking because they know they are going to get hammered on this, so they are trying to cover their asses.

[hang a left]

7. I do believe he will resign but not for

health reasons. I think he is being sacrificed on the alter. I think that the SC will turn down his request to have the energy meetings information kept classified. I think that the demand in the house this week from Pelosi that we will give you your 87B only if you release data on the distribution of the first 67B. I believe we are going to see the contractors receiving about 90% of the money. I also think that Cheney's financial ties to Halli are going to come under very close scrutiny, he is gonna go down in disgrace.

BUT will that be enough to take the heat of the rest of the criminals, only time will tell. I surely hope not.

[Beetwasher]

8. It'll be for "health reasons" or to "spend more time w/ the family"

I agree with everything you said, but that will be the "official" reason for his resignation. He will also still be calling the shots even though he has no official capacity...It may actually have been the plan all along for him not to serve a second term, but I don't think they planned on it happening like this...

[Emboldened Chimp]

11. He has to resign for health reasons

because if he's embroiled in scandal, he'll bring everyone else down, Chimp included. Guilt by association. This backtracking on the Iraq-9-11 connection is an attempt to distance themselves from someone they know is about to go down in flames. Ultimately, I don't think they'll be successful, because they're already neck deep. I think we're about to see an administration crumble under the weight of its own hubris. Serves them right, imo, but the sad truth is that we're all effected by their actions. And our soldiers are paying the ultimate price. I hope we all make it out of this mess intact (soldiers especially), and only they suffer the penalties. Wishful thinking, I know--those in power rarely suffer for their actions--but one can always hope.

[Eloriel]

12. Actually

someone posted yesterday that Lynne Cheney had let it drop at a "tea" that for health reasons they were going to spend more time with their kids.

Now, they're killing several birds here with one stone. First, they're neutralizing ONE of the Dem candidates' arguments against them -- the lies re Iraq war. (Someone else posted a few days ago that they'd heard someone on one of the talk shows say that the goal was to withdraw from Iraq by mid-2004 -- just in time for the real election swing to get going.)

Cheney probably doesn't care if he gets canned -- he's got all that money to wrap himself up in and more coming anytime he wants it. Plus, if they make a show of pinning things on him, then they neutralize the blood lust on the part of critics to make SOMEone pay.

Eloriel

[Beetwasher]

15. Yes, it would seem this is the plan

of sorts...I think Cheney may have been considering to drop out all along, but not necessarily under these circumstances.

Also, to further the argument that their going to cut and run on Iraq, there was an interesting article in the NYT:

U.S. Forces Look Into Leaving Iraqi Cities

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq-usa-troops.html

---snip--

The question is, will this help them (the ditching of Cheney)? I'm not so sure, it may be too late to pull something like this off. They had too much invested in the emotional 9/11 attachment and the implications were coming directly from the Chimp. I don't know if this will neutralize the charges, especially with all the other stuff, no WMD's, 16 words etc...

[Terran]

6. Powell as VP?

The repubs are never going to set up a Black man to be President. It's not going to happen, ever. They know they would lose because most of their base would never support Powell or any other African-American, no matter what public statements they might make.

Dirk

[Beetwasher]

10. Yeah, I doubt they would replace Cheney w/ Powell

I can't see them getting over their ingrained racism to do that...But, I also never thought they'd be desperate enough to start telling the truth!

[Eloriel]

13. IMO they're not really telling the truth

They're neutralizing the charge of lies.

Eloriel

[Beetwasher]

16. Well, by the truth I mean

that finally they are admitting that SH was not involved in 9/11. Yes, they are not really telling the truth, but in a sense, they are relying on it in a twisted way...

[hang a left]

19. yep, it's called the backpedal

[DinahMoeHum]

14. and African-Americans probably won't support Powell, anyway,

at this point.

They are far more sophisticated then we give them credit for; and they won't automatically vote for a Black man solely because he's Black. They know tokenism when they see it.

:kick:

[RobertSeattle]

3. Agreed but, doesn't this absolve Bush?

It seems like things are getting set up for "Blame Anybody But Bush" (BABB). Blame Cheney. Blame Rove. Blame Wolfie. Does the buck ever stop with George?

[Beetwasher]

5. Well, they may hope it will but it won't

It's wearing thin, especially after the 16 words...The truth is always a last resort for these scum, so they must be desperate to try this approach.

[candy331]

9. Afro-American

as president from the repugs may not happen but you can bet that a person of color will control this part of the word with the agenda on the table now. Afro-Americans love and are totally loyal to this country and die daily defending it but are the other colors (red, yellow, brown) who make up the majority of the worlds population? The US has given Afro-Americans who would fight in the trenches and give their last breath for this country a raw deal and they know it and yet not good enough to be President. Kind of tells you something about the attitude of this country doesn't it?

[calimary]

17. Totally correct. One other thing, though, guys.

The polls now suggest that, once again, just as in 1992, "It's the ECONOMY, Stupid." More Americans are responding that the economy is what they'll be voting on. For that you can't JUST pin it on cheney and hope if he's jettisoned that it'll all go away and be "morning in America" again for the rethugs.

If they could find the Blue Fairy who could wave her wand and make three million jobs magically appear, they'd have an automatic win. I seriously doubt that's gonna happen, though.

It goes beyond the war, as horrible and egregious as it is. People can be lulled and fooled by all the patriotism crap. But they cannot and will not be able to get around the crappy economy, and all those lost jobs.

[Beetwasher]

18. I think it's a confluence of events

the economy being a big part of it. The bottom line is they are intentionally screwing this country on every front and they thought they could just use slick PR and propoganda to fool the public into beleiving otherwise. It worked for a while due to 9/11, but that is wearing thin and reality is taking hold. It's a dangerous juncture we're at though, because they saw how 9/11 insulated them and they LIKED it and benefitted form it more than anyone and they might just thinkthat something similar could work in their favor again...

[hang a left]

20. Yes the economy will be the "single issue voter" majority

I just don't see how anyone in their gang can replace Cheney, they will have to recruit from outside. But, I have been thinking (scarey for me)that something BIG is about to go down, like congressional hearings. There has been alot of buzz on the board in the last few days about "something" getting ready to go down. I really have that gut feeling as well, maybe it's the cabbage, I don't know.

[Beetwasher]

21. Something big is coming down

I have that feeling too. I think the Dems may have the goods on Cheney...

[Resistance Is Futile]

23. 2004 Strategy

Having the goods on Cheney won't help as he's gone already. Don't expect anything that might come to light on him to rub off on Chimpy as the media--doing Rove's work as usual--have been very careful to call Cheney out for lying but haven't leveled any accusations against Chimpy.

It would also be unwise to bank on the economy for 2004. Even anti-Junta economists like Krugman are expecting things to get better by then.

With Cheney carrying most of the Iraq blame off with him, the economy on the mend, and all the media in Rove's pocket, it will be very, very difficult to get any traction against Chimpy in 2004.

[Resistance Is Futile]

22. Rove, a failure?

Rove has his minions dominating all branches of government, has near absolute control over the mainstream media, and has a fairly good chance of creating a one-party state that will last until the next armed revolt. If this is your idea of failure I'd really like to know what you'd consider success.