General Clark Used Depleted Uranium in Kosovo War- Robert Fisk

[seventhson]

Depleted Uranium is, if you have read the article in this month's Rolling Stone or others may be causing Gulf War syndrome and birth defects and may well explain the "mysterious" illnesses suffered by our troops in Iraq.

As it turns out all of your's wonderful friend General and Supreme Commander of NATO oversaw the use of Depleted Uranium which even was used against civilians in the Kosovo war and likely dusted our own troops too.

To me that amounts to a crime against humanity.

Granted, even our boy Clinton must take the blame for this as OUR commander in chief. But the fact is that this "antiwar"(sic) general used this extreme and corporate sponsored (Halliburton included) weapon which is clearly a weapon of mass destruction and is similar to using "dirty bombs" and radiological warfare which hit civilians and is poisoning the people he and NATO used it on.

Shame on Clark.

Shame on those who support him.

This site is starting to look not like the democratic underground but more like the DLC-PNAC with all the Clark adulators.

Pfeh!!!

Here's the write-up by one of my heroes : Robert Fisk. Arguably one of the most courageous writers and war correspondents writing today.



http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/scoun.htm

[Caution]

1. Gimme a friggin break

Of course he used depleted uranium. That is US military policy. Is it wrong? Who knows, there are many conflicting studies on whether or not this stuff is the cause of anything other than its intended use. Blaming Clark for the use of it makes no sense. Rather blame the military-industrial complex which refuses to do a comprehensive unbiased study of the battle-field effects and after effects of this stuff.

And to call this stuff a weapon of mass destruction is straight up bullshit. Do some reading on it, even the most strident opponents of its use suggest that more study is needed.

I'm not even a Clark guy (I'm undecided though leaning towards Dean), but your message is offensive (shame on clark supporters? no shame on you for your attempt to smear a campaign based upon a decision made by the US military long before clark was in any type of position to weigh in on that decision).

[dfong63]

51. use common sense - permanently contaminating a land is illegal

... under international law.

And to call this stuff a weapon of mass destruction is straight up bullshit. Do some reading on it, even the most strident opponents of its use suggest that more study is needed.

please read the articles cited in messages #44 and #48. you can dispute a lot of things, but one thing that is indisputable is what the "most strident opponents" say, and that is that DU is illegal.

add to that, cluster bombs also used in Clark's war.

imagine Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda using these weapons against the US. have you any doubt that the US government would say they were illegal?

[stickdog]

100. Spoken like a true tobacco scientist.

"Even the most strident opponents of its use suggest that more study is needed."

:eyes:

Go ahead, Caution, sprinkle it on your corn flakes.

[Democrats unite]

2. Feel better now?

eom

[homelandpunk]

111. no, not until we all bow our heads in shame

and flood the board with messages: "SS, I'm sorry...thank you for rescuing us from ourselves."
He's on a mishun frum Gaad and will continue "pfeh"-ing us with salvos of contempt and disgust like the above until we "get it".

PFEH!!!!
AND DOUBLE PFEH!!!

[Emperor_Norton_II]

3. Wow! PNAC and depleted uranium!

Two birds with one stone today, eh, me old shiner? Must be nice.

Smile! Skull and Bones is watching j00. :eyes:

[roughsatori]

4. Hope you have your flame retardant on. I was wondering

when posters were mentioning the depleted uranium that the Bush* Junta was dropping if they would still disapprove if one of our own dropped the DU. I wonder if some of the same posters will now send you to links of research that shows DU to be as pure as the driven snow and tastes good too.

I have a feeling that many of them will approve of depleted uranium and call you a "leftist wacko." It seems to be the only response left them. Yesterday the insults on DU aimed at the Left wing of the Democratic party would have fit right in at FreakRepublic.com.

[sangh0]

5. BREAKING NEWS

Gen Clark used BULLETS!!!! in Kosovo War. It's well known that bullets have killed more people than DU has.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. LOL!

Perfect response, Sangha. Illustrates the absurdity of this very well.

:thumbsup:

DTH

[Eloriel]

27. Actually, quite the opposite

It demonstrates the absurdity of those who try to dismiss the truth because of their support for Clark.

This is getting scary.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

29. Dismiss the truth?

Clark really DID use bullets, but leave it to a PNAC supporter to imply that no bullets were used.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. You Are on a ROLL Today!

That is hilarious!

DTH

[Wonk]

78. Irrelevant and intentionally changing the subject.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html

[aquart]

105. Not laughing.

Telling me Clark used Depleted Uranium because it was army policy doesn't help me a bit.

Does he look tortured in his conscience to you?

Lead in a bullet is insufficient? We need something that kills ten years from now too?

I appreciate this practical reminder of why I don't want a military man in this civilian job.

[sangha]

112. Lead is just as serious

and it keeps killing for many years also. Poor children get lead poinsoning from eating paint that's 100 years old. The lead in gasoline used to cause a great deal of environmental havoc.

[Eloriel]

37. Who are you referring to?

You are lapsing into incoherence -- not the first time, merely the most recent.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

39. Damned if I know!!

Just ignore it Eloriel. DTH is only laughing because he's cruel to the incoherent. It's part of the plan.

BTW, it's not my most recent incoherency. Some of my incoherencies are so recent, they haven't even been spoken yet

[Forkboy]

9. LMAO

Seventhson makes it too easy :)

[Bandit]

41. Right Guns don't kill people Bullets do

:shrug: Still a killer no matter how it's done.

[sangh0]

45. Wrong!! People kill themselves

by running into the bullets!!!

[IranianDemocrat]

95. ROFLMFAO x100000000000000000

Sangh0 come over to my house and I'll pour you a drink..

[Hippo_Tron]

103. WRONG!!!

God magically places the bullets infront of people because they need to die in order for his perfect world to work.

[seventhson]

66. Got a link for that big news?

DU destroys the genes of a child in utero damaging and possibly killing the entire genetic line of that child. In theory and in practice DU could ultiimately kill millions more people than all the bullets in the Iraq war because it damges people for GENERATIONS.

GOD I am so sickened by ignorant people and defenders of DU.

ONE babt damaged is bad enough. Permanent annihilation and extinction of a genetic line is much worse when it affects broad swatchs of the population.

Yes - you may wipe out 20,000 Iraqis. But you may poison and damage the gene pools of millions causing many MORE deaths than the 20,000 killed with bullets.

KMA

[Forkboy]

68. Who the hell defended DU?

Got a link for that big news big guy?

[sangh0]

71. Google "Lead poisoning"

Lead, which is what was used before DU, destroys the brains of children in utero which could possibly end the entire genetic line of that chold. In theory and practice, lead ALREADY HAS killed millions more people than DU has. And lead persists in the environment, so it too can damage people for GENERATIONS. Just ask those who live in old housing stock.

GOD< I am so sickened by ignorant people and the promoters of lead.

One baby poisoned by lead is bad enough. Permanent annihilation and extinction of a genetic line (actually, you are ignorantly misusing the term "genetic line") is much worse when it affects broad swatches of the population, which lead does do.

Yes, you can wipe out 20,000 Iraqis with lead. But you may poison and damage the brains, testes, and lives of millions more.

[stickdog]

101. Ever heard of WWII Syndrome. sanguine?

Still, that's an amusing argument.

Grecian Formula is made of lead acetate. Would you recommend putting DU on your hair everyday for a healthy glow?

[sangha]

110. Read it again

The post you responded to doesn't make a very good case for lead, so I don't know why you think I would recommend putting lead acetate in your hair.

Lead has killed more people than DU. Lead is no joke, and I don't know why you are ignoring the dangers of lead.

[seventhson]

114. But does lead permanently damage the dna???

Does it cause mutations of infants?

It MAY cause mutations. But it does npot remain radioactive for billions of years.

You are comparing apples and dioxin (and yes the aspples may contain dioxin but they are NOT dioxin unless contaminated by man)

[sangh0]

116. It leads to death

cognitive dysfunction, hormonal imbalance, neurological dysfunctions, amongst other things. Unlike DU, there is no safe level of exposure - Even the smallest doses of lead result in damage.

And yes, lead persists in the environment. Unlike DU, it has no half-life. It remains as dangerous as ever, no matter how long you wait.

[bowens43]

6. He was in the military, he did

what he felt necessary to achieve the tasks he was told achieve. I'm not yet convinced Clark will be a good candidate but your argument seems a bit weak. Clark has never claimed to be the 'anti-war' general. He claims to be opposed to the war in Iraq not all wars.

[paulk]

8. PPfeh!

:tinfoilhat:

[Zhade]

93. Are you tinfoiling Fisk...? The guy's a superb journalist.

NT!

[paulk]

104. no, not fisk

the originater of this thread

[tjdee]

10. What did Dean use? Oh that's right, nothing.

Because he has no foreign policy experience.

Depleted uranium is in line with US policy. Do I like it? No.

If you think Dean's first act in office would be to do away with use of depleted uranium, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
And you and I know that if Dean had commanded forces like "our boy Clinton", and someone brought this up, you'd be defending him.

[FubarFly]

58. If Dean authorized the use of Depleted Uranium I would condemn him.

And rightfully so.

Depleted uranium should be taken out of our arsenal IMMEDIATELY.

[sangh0]

59. So it was Dean who authorized the use of DU??

I should've known that!!

[FubarFly]

60. No, Dean bombed Pearl Harbor.

And he was responsible for Vanilla Pepsi.

He also had a monkey-shooter surgically implanted in his ass.


:eyes:

[sangh0]

61. Vanilla Pepsi?

That bastard!

[RichV]

80. But, but...

I heard that in 1995 Dean said he was forever loyal to CRYSTAL Pepsi! That jerk...

[seventhson]

67. No, I was a strong critic of Clinton on ALL radiation exposure issues

especially the DU issue.

Clinton sickened me on this issue which is one reason I see him as too damn close to the BFEE for my taste (just like the fact that PNAC had a bunch of Clinton boyz and even Kerry's foreign policy advisor in on it)

I objected to Clinton but I always knew he was a hell of a lot better than the drug kingpin known on the street as "poppy" for his drug-smuggling connections.

[disgruntella]

11. why do i have the feeling

that you're really, really happy about this? hmmm...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

NT

[Terwilliger]

86. how unbelivably stupid

WESLEY CLARK POISONED AMERICAN TROOPS AND YOU DONT CARE!!!

[shance]

13. Thanks Seventh - those are good points.

I dont think hes a liberal like hes being painted. I think he is probably a good guy, but I believe he is as much an insider is most of the DLC Dem. nominees. Why did it take him so long to jump in? Why was he a CNN consultant? That reveals to me the Administration was and is pretty comfortable with him.

I think we need to be observant of candidates running as Liberal or moderate and really are conservative underneath it all.

Seems to be the going strategy.

Amy Goodman is talking about Clark on Democracy Now right 'now'. In California its 90.7 fm.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. While I am AGAINST the use of DU

Our government is FAR more responsible for DU being on those bombers than the general was. IF we didn't MAKE it...they wouldn't USE it. And yes....Bush, Reagan and Clinton and all the legislators who cater to the Military Industrial Complex are responsible for those weapons.

What is dishonest about your post is that you would like the reader to believe the decision was singularly made by Clark. I have come to expect no less from you. I really think you would be happier with 4 more years of Bush.

Of course, there is no contradiction on your part. Bush sealed his gubernatorial records. Dean sealed his gubernatorial records...see how that works?

[ArkDem]

19. Bombers don't use DU. They are

armor piercing cannon rounds designed to destroy armored targets primarily tanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Sorry ...from the article ( I digress, I got the term wrong)

For it transpires that DU was used by A-10 "tankbuster" aircraft for more than a month in at least 40 locations in Kosovo

[hayu_lol]

73. A-10 'Warthogs' have cannon...their purpose was to kill tanks...

thats why they used the DU coated shells.

[Cheswick2.0]

15. the furor over Clark will subside

He is another centrist like Dean who people are trying to promote as the great white hope to beat Bush. When people find that they actually disagree with him on issues important to them "things" will change around here. The most welcome change will be when all the political operatives leave because they realize they are doing more damage than good by shoving their candidate down everyones throat.

This is in no way meant to criticize Clark supporters who honestly like the guy. There are many Clark supporters here who I like, agree with on other issues and respect. I just don't happen to be sold on their candidate yet.

[realFedUp]

16. Today's segment on democracynow.org with Fisk....re:Clark

www.democracynow.org
interesting.

[Kahuna]

17. Puleeze. Can't you do better than this. I knew there would be

wailing and knashing of teeth by the socialists/communists so called factions of the Democratic party (even though they really AREN'T democrats) when Clark announced. But this is ridiculous.

These are the same factions who election cycle after election cycle see to it that the dems don't stand a chance of winning the election. When will DU get wise to this and shut them down?

[sangh0]

18. Of course he can't do better

We're talking about seventhson here!

When will DU get wise to this and shut them down?

Never. Controversy is good for business.

[hayu_lol]

74. Seventhson does this on every board he is on...

until he gets banned permanently. This is what he does. Claims to be this, claims to be that, claims to have a decent education, claims to be a professional...he has claimed all of these things here many times.
Always a tin hat conspiracy, even after experts about the subject jump in to tell the facts. He doesnt have facts...just fantasy.

[latebloomer]

24. Yes, the dems should win

Yes, any of them would be the lesser of the evils and would help swing the pendulum back to the center.

But let's not delude ourselves that any of them, with the possible exeption of Kucinich, Sharpton or Moseley-Braun-- all of whom are "unelectable"-- would really make significant differences in the way this country is owned and operated.

[wyldwolf]

28. They won't because...

...even though it is Democratic Underground with a big "D", denoting the democratic party, people wish to pretend it is with a small "d."

[Zhade]

96. You're judging who "is" and "isn't" a Democrat? That's not your call.

NT!

[stickdog]

102. Kahuna: "DU must censor those who don't support DU."

Or did I read that incorrectly?

[Zolok]

20. You were right to post this...

the depleted uranium story is important.
however it pales into insignificance when you consider Field Marshal Clark (his REAL rank in the SPACE PATROL)threatened to nuke Belgrade with a 200 megaton hydrogen bomb unless Milosevic and his "white cracker legion" (Wes's words not mine) surrendered.

200 MEGATONS!!!!
I have it on the best authority from those filthy squirrels out in my backyard that keep stealing my mail.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. You Had Me Going!

LOL!

DTH

[buddhamama]

23. the U.S. used Depleted Uranium

if Clark used DU don't blame him blame your government.

he's a military guy who is going to use whatever arsenal is at his disposal with auhtorization. if you have a problem with DU take it up with your senators,congresspersons,the Prseident-who at the time was Clinton.

[latebloomer]

26. Military men only follow orders

And whose orders would Clark be following if he were President? You don't really believe that Presidents are autonomous, do you???

[buddhamama]

33. what the hell gave you that impression

that i thought Presidents are autonomous?

another kneejerk reaction.

[latebloomer]

43. my point was

in response to your statement that military men only use what is at their disposal. Military men do the bidding of their government. My concern is that Clark will do the bidding of the powers that be-- the military-industrial complex that runs our country.

[buddhamama]

47. okay. but i'll argue that

corporations run our country, the military industrial complex just happens to be essential and a big money maker for the corporations.

[latebloomer]

49. agreed!

Totally!!!

[dfong63]

44. DU is a WMD, and its use is illegal

Military men only follow orders

DU is classified by the UN as a weapon of mass destruction, its use is illegal. military men are not required to follow illegal orders. remember Nuremberg? i strongly doubt that Clinton explicitly ordered Clark to use DU. but if he did, then Clark could have, and should have, referred Clinton to the relevant sections of international law.

sunday herald: US use of DU illegal
``...
BRITISH and American coalition forces are using depleted uranium (DU) shells in the war against Iraq and deliberately flouting a United Nations resolution which classifies the munitions as illegal weapons of mass destruction. ...

According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts.
...''

it only takes common sense to see that DU does fall under the common definitions of WMD, including the one used by the UN. it also only takes common sense to see that it is an inhumane weapon. can you imagine if the evil communists had invented DU during the cold war, and used it in any of the little skirmishes with the US that developed? or agent orange? you can bet your booties that the US govt would brand them illegal in a flash.

[Eloriel]

42. I guess all those people

in Nazi Germany who were just following orders should really have been held blameless, then.

Got it.

Like I said, this is getting scary.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

46. Wrong!!

They belong in concentration camps!!

[buddhamama]

50. i am not trying to make excuses

for anyone.
but i above all else blame my government.

i am 100% opposed to the use of DU or any nuclear weapon.

do a search thru the archives, i have provided a plethoria of anti-DU/nuke info. again, i am not making excuses.

my overall point was, stop the government from allowing their use.

we can concentrate on Clark or we can put the focus where it ought to be, on those who authorize their use. DU was around before Clark was in Kosovo and there is going to be more DU use if we don't put a stop to it.

[buddhamama]

53. you know,Eloriel

i respect ya and all but i have to say i resent your post.

this is getting scary all right.

this has become about candidate bashing instead of what it should be about, war crimes and those who authorize the use of nuke weapons.

and a change in government.

[buddhamama]

54. indulge me, Eloriel

if i am to suffer your sanctimony
tell me, where does your candidate stand on nuclear power and the Energy Bill?

if you really are concerned about nuke/DU and war crimes
perhaps you'd like to read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=213825

[Booberdawg]

25. What a surprise, more righteous indignation and bullshit

woven out of whole cloth and hyperbole from seventhson. We get the picture - any candidate that poses a threat to the one you like is evil and the Devil reincarnated.

Give it a fucking rest already. :eyes:

[wyldwolf]

30. I'll take it further...

... the only candidate worth anything to the original poster is the ultra pacifast - which there isn't one in the current dem field. He would rather a Kucinich run and lose than a Clark run and win.

[latebloomer]

32. Great, Clark should run and win

And it's bound to be an improvement. But let's not delude ourselves that he's the Messiah.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I have no more delusions that Clark is the messiah than I have that

Seventhson is here to help us get Bush out of office. So far, he has run a propaganda campaign against Kerry that is grounded in NO demonstrable facts..unless you consider conspiracy sites to be chock full of demonstrable facts.

This post is another example. He makes it appear as though Clark wnet to the kitchen cupboard and pulled out a cup of DU in order to confirm his inherent evilness.

I am in NO candidate's camp yet.

[wyldwolf]

35. notice I said "a" Kucinich and "a" Clark...

...meaning a candidate LIKE them... I didn't imply Clark was the Messiah but he sure as hell has a MUCH better shot at winning than over half the current Dems running - and he just got in!

[sangh0]

40. How dare you suggest that Clark is NOT the Messiah?

What are you, an anti-semite?

[Booberdawg]

38. I don't even have a problem with that - he's entitled to his opinion

it's all the shitfest threads he initiates based on nothing but propaganda and bullshit to trash, bash, and vilify other candidates that reflects so poorly on him. Jebus!

[Pepperbelly]

36. and in Viet Nam, he used LEAD bullets!!!!!

Oh my!

:eyes:

[dfong63]

48. read up on it

depleted coverage of DU weapons
``...
In a December 18 draft recommendation that went largely unremarked, the Environment Committee of the Council of Europe found that during the Kosovo war, NATO countries violated provisions of the Geneva Conventions intended to limit environmental damage.

Among other things, the committee cited "the use of depleted uranium in warheads" as a violation that had "dramatically worsened" Yugoslavia's environment "with long-lasting effects on the health and quality of life for future generations." The committee further found that this damage "can be presumed to have been deliberate."
...''

[treepig]

52. you seem to have accidently mis-posted a link to DU

when the topic was lead - so here's some articles on the tragic effects of exposure to lead:

http://www.phyles.ge.cnr.it/htmling/toxicityoflead.html

http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1996/Suppl-1/landrigan-abs.html

http://www.macslab.com/toxic.html

http://www.environmentaldiseases.com/article_lead_toxicity.html

egad, to think i have 4 pounds of this stuff in my computer, yup, the one i'm using right now . . .

[FubarFly]

57. Here's another link for you.

(warning, this is extremely graphic in nature)

http://www.ericblumrich.com/pl_lo.html


Clark's involvement with DU is cause for legitimate concern.
I don't know all of the facts yet, and I'm not ready to condemn Clark,
but I won't ignore them if they are damning either. We have ten qualified candidates going up against b*sh. They each in turn have undergone harsh scrutiny. Right now it's Clark's turn. All information, even the negative stuff, is useful at this stage. If Clark is the man that his supporters say he is, then he has nothing to worry about. There are many logical explanations which could clear Clark from these charges, although as of yet, I haven't heard one.

[Skwmom]

55. I believe I read that Clark wanted to use ground troops

to reduce the amount of bombing. However, there was no way in hell they were going to let him do this. The political risk of having soldiers dying in the headlines was to high (this was the Clinton not the Bush admin - the media would have crucified Clinton).

I don't like the new way military campaigns are conducted, we bomb the hell out of everything first in the hopes of minimizing our casualties. But would it have been better to do nothing?

I have friends who were in Bosnia during the war and have many family members that still live there. Are they happy about the depleted uranium issue? Heck no. But Milosevic had to be removed. I've heard their accounts of what was taking place over there and we could not allow that to continue.

[sangh0]

56. Ground troops?? That's awful!

Do you know how many people have been killed by ground troops?

[IranianDemocrat]

97. Clark eats babies, and pokes holes in condoms!

He is the anti-christ!

[leetrisck]

62. Whatever in the hell are

we going to do? Scream about the depleted uranium all you want to - now get out there and support those vets - invasions kills people - like bush is doing now and using depleted uranium - how long have we been using it. I hope your support for the vets is as adamant as your opposition to Clark - they sure as the hell could use a little of it right now with that miserable criminal in the yellow house.

[dfong63]

64. want to support the vets? BAN DU

hundreds of thousands of US vets were harmed by DU... it's not just about contaminating a foreign land and people. anyone who cares about the welfare of vets should be screaming about this. DU is agent orange all over again. and no, Clark doesn't get a "pass" just because other candidates "might" have done the same thing in Clark's position. Clark WAS in the position to choose to use it or not. he failed to make the morally correct and legally correct decision. he has to take responsibility for it.

[leetrisck]

77. Spent lots of years screaming

about agent orange too - see anybody in jail for it? Hell no and your not going to.

[_NorCal_D_]

107. Absolutely.

However it is naive and absurd to blame the use of depleted uranium on Clark.

Was he really in a position to choose whether or not to use it? What would be the alternative? Napalm? Carpet bombing? biological weapons?
Perhaps Clark was given such a choice, and chose the weaponry that would do the least detriment to the civilian population.

[retyred]

63. DU has been used

in almost every skirmish since gulf war 1 and before, does it's use in these wars reflect badly on those that support ALL the candidates that had no problem with these other wars, or just Clark?

Is knowing DU was/is being used and still going along with support of the war less of an atrosity than using it yourself while in the war?

While the use of DU is not a great thing, to crucify Clark because the army used it and not the others that have come out in support of every other war besides Iraq #2 is a little biased, isn't it?

I seem to have read that while against this war, "some" of the other candidates had no problem with Iraq #1 or Afghanistan where DU was used as well, should ALL these candidates be shamed as well as their supporters?

Had some of the other candidates been in the war, they too would have had the same chance to use DU and could also be depicted as killers along with Clark.

So who you gonna vote for bunkey?



CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
Retyred IN FLA.

[dfong63]

69. not so fast

DU has been used in almost every skirmish since gulf war 1 and before, does it's use in these wars reflect badly on those that support ALL the candidates that had no problem with these other wars, or just Clark?

of the current candidates, only Clark was in a position to make a decision regarding the use of DU. he wants to take credit for his role in the war, he has to take responsibility for the not-so-wonderful aspects of that war also.

i hope Clark will be asked about this issue in the debates or in an interview. it's not just about Iraq, it's about hundreds of thousands of our own vets who were exposed to DU. it's also an environmental issue. the man claims to be thinking environmental issues in his 100-year vision for America. so let's think about what Iraq will look like in 100 years, if nothing is done to cleanup the radioactive mess. let's think about what all the other battlefields of the world will look like if we continue to use DU in future wars. let's think about how we'll feel if our opponents start using DU on us. let's think about the vets who are already, not only suffering horribly but having children with birth defects. what are the 100-year consequences of this?

i could go on by listing the international political consequences of the US continuing to use what most of the world regards as an illegal weapon.

so let's hear from Clark about this. i fully admit, this issue is bigger than Clark. it's not JUST about him. but since he actually fought a war with DU, i think he has a special responsibility to speak out on the issue. if he's in favor of its continued use, then he has to take the heat for it. if he's not in favor of it, then he has to take the lead in getting rid of it.

i'd also like to hear his thoughts on cluster bombs and the land mine treaty that Clinton sabotaged.

[ieoeja]

65. Which candidate has said he will get rid of DU?

And with what has he or she suggested it be replaced seeing as DU was introduced in the first place as a replacement for lead due to the established toxicity of lead.

[dfong63]

70. false premise

seeing as DU was introduced in the first place as a replacement for lead due to the established toxicity of lead.

DU was not introduced because it's less toxic than lead; the opposite is true. DU was introduced because it penetrates armor better than lead.

[Blue_Chill]

72. Shame on me? No shame here.

You can live in your land of ivory towers but the majority of America does not. DU was used because our goverment gave it to our armed forces by the politicians in Washington. We the people provide the tools and then complain when they use them?

please.

[Pepperbelly]

75. false premise, 7thson and a shameful one at that...

but you seem almost fact adverse of late, along with numerous posters.

The Generals use the weapons that are procured for them. The Congress of the United States authorizes the procurements. The Generals use the weaponry provided by the politicians. What part of that do you have trouble grasping?

[FubarFly]

79. Do the Generals have to use the weapons provided by the politicians?

Are there instances where the Generals have a moral and legal obligation to say no? Are the Generals aware of the longtime effects their weapons are causing on both the civilian population and their own soldiers? And if the Generals do find out after the fact, do they then have an obligation to condemn the weapons use? Or does the Generals loyalty to a corrupt government supercede this? In which case, will the Generals continue to authorize the use of said weapon in future wars?

[Pepperbelly]

82. what would you have them do?

Shake their dicks at them?

Give me a break. Soldiers use the tools the politicians give them.

[Terwilliger]

88. including nukes?

Clark: "Well I had a tactical situation, and the nuclear option was the only one available"

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Pepperbelly]

91. T ... get hold of your imagination or maybe ...

turn it to something constructive like writing novels or something.

[FubarFly]

92. I would have any General not knowingly violate international law.

In this case, it looks like Clark was unaware DU's longterm effects. At that time, I was as well. I know better now; it is my hope that Clark realizes this also.

[Pepperbelly]

94. Clark operated within the law ...

the extant science was behind him 100%. Besides that, what weapons can be used by the American military except those provided by the Congress?

[FubarFly]

98. I agree, Clark thought he was operating within the law.

It is his attitude towards DU now that concerns me.

1. Will he admit that DU was more dangerous than he first believed?

2. Will he advocate taking DU out of our arsenal?

I will want to know the same information about any candidate. By no means is this strictly about Clark.

[Pepperbelly]

99. hard to say ...

I am not sure what I think about it at this point. On the one hand, I am aware of what some of the studies have said. At the same time, I wonder if some other material with the specific gravity and density can be substituted or if the DU itself can be treated in some fashion to bring down the radiation levels even further.

Back in the day ... during the 70s ... Dr. John Goffman came out with some pioneering studies regarding low level radiation and its long term effects. I am not sure what to think about the issue.

[seventhson]

81. Orders are Orders, after all. Sounds like the Nazi defense

Jeez, folks. I only polluted the earth and ordered bombings with deadly poisonous radiation which lasts forever because I was ordered to.

Give me a break.

Clark no more deserves our vote than Schwartzenegger (sp?). They are both unqualified opportunists

[Pepperbelly]

85. ok 7th son ...

I have really tried to avoid giving you much of a hard time since most of your posts are, to put it kindly, irrational, paranoid, and ordinarily the downright opposite of cogent and succinct. However, this has got to be a low point even for your talents. To take the way our law is written into the Constitution and somehow invert the solemn duty of the Congress to appropriate money and procure equipment and property for the government into a fucking "Nazi defense" for soldiers using the tools the leadership gave them is one of the most lame-brained, disaffilated, abusive, dishonest and crazed posts I have ever had the displeasure to read.

They use DU to kill tanks. I don't like it but I don't know what other options they should use. They cannot simply wish the tanks away nor should they have abandoned the people of Kosovo to ethnic cleansing and ultimately, IMO, genocide.

Say whatever the hell you want. You have that right. But be advised, when you post something as psychotic as what you just posted, I shall clearly label it as such.

IOW, what you wrote is totally insane.

[Terwilliger]

89. Maybe they could use conventional ordinance!

Maybe they could stop selling tanks to the people who use them so they don't have to use tank-killer shells! EVER THINK OF THAT?

[Pepperbelly]

90. I do not believe that either ...

Wesley Clark nor I have sold any tanks to anyone, T. Or have you somehow caught on to my international arms smuggling ops?

:eyes:

[MrPrax]

76. Hey don't forget Haitian breasts!!

I spy with my little eye a Progressive website that really hates Clark...

"Gen. Wesley Clark was in charge of refugee camps in the 1980s and 1990s where Haitian refugees who were fleeing first Baby Doc Duvalier (and later the new regime installed by the US following the overthrowal of the elected Aristide government in the early 1990s), were packed, under appalling conditions condemned by the Center for Constitutional Rights, among many others. In the 1980s, many Haitian male refugees incarcerated at Krome (in Miami), and Fort Allen (in Puerto Rico) reported a strange condition called gyneacomastia, a situation in which they developed full female breasts."

http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen09172003.html

[seventhson]

84. Jesus F*ckin' H. Christ!!! Clark Poisoned Haitian prisoners???

This, I would have to say, is very bad bad news for the Clark supporters here at DU.

How stupid do the cheneypentagonrummies think we are???

I hereby vote to banish all Clark supporters from this board unless they repent NOW.

This is an obvious genocidal crime against humanity against prisoners and Clark's unfolding history is following a disgusting pattern of directing genetic altering experiments against civilians (Haitian and Eastern European).

AAAAGGGGHHHH!!!! Run!!!!!


Clark is fucking scary.

He's no democrat. He's a monster.

[Blitz]

109. LOL So, does this mean

that you support Kerry over Clark? Or are there Skull & Bones breast enlargement issues that may sway your opinion against Kerry? Certainly, you prefer Lieberman to Clark, right?

Do you think that any of these men are worthy to carry Bush's bags?

Just curious (and really amused).

[seventhson]

113. I WOULD actually support Lieberman over Clark at this point.

I think someone whose family was IN a coincentration camp would probably serve h8umanity better than one who RAN one and committed crimes against the refugees there.

Ansd as for Kerry - I think he and Clark are pretty equal in disgustipation.

[OKNancy]

115. Unfortuately for you the article is bull-pucky

I knew it was bull when it said he was head of the NAVY base at Guantanamo. Clark is Army.

[FubarFly]

83. Wesley Clark and DU in his own words- Spring 2001

WESLEY CLARK | There are very well-known safety standards for exposure to radiation, set internationally by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) and other institutions, based upon extensive research and testing by the US and other governments over the years. NATO has always abided by those standards.
We thus know very well what the correlation of radiation content to risk of depleted uranium is. It is measurable, and it is very low-40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium. There has never been any correlation between this level of radiation and a specific effect. Simply put, depleted uranium falls within the scale of what is safely admissible.

Depleted uranium is used in weapons not because it is radioactive. It is used because it is a heavier metal than lead and thus carries more impact against an armored target.

NATO acted completely within international legal restrictions on this. We did all we could to avoid large-scale environmental damage. We deliberately did not target areas we thought had Serb chemical weapons in them.

--snip--

CLARK | I would never put it that way because an issue like this must be taken very seriously. But I am certain no new, unexamined correlation between DU weapons and health will be found.

http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2001_spring/little_risk.html


--

I have yet to find a more recent quote from Clark on DU, but it's obvious that he underestimated DU's longterm effects. If he still feels this way, despite the more recent facts which have proven him wrong, then this is cause for concern. If he now realizes the error of his ways, then he has an obligation to set the record straight.


Either way, we haven't heard the last of this issue.

[seventhson]

87. Obviously DUHH. If it is unexamined it will NOT be found. INDICT!!!

"I am certain no new, unexamined correlation between DU weapons and health will be found."

Rhodes scholar.

Sounds like a Rhodes Fascist. Miseducated fool.

Cecil Rhodes -- by the way - Google him and Racism.

On Edit: But I bet new EXAMINED correlations will be found.

[stickdog]

106. Does the above post qualify as a "Bash Clark" post?

Just trying to figure out the new rules here now that the establishment has arrived in full force.

[FubarFly]

108. I view it as honest criticism.

But who knows?

:shrug: