What Cicero said about Traitors and what * said about intelligence use.

[bobthedrummer]

"This is an administration that will not talk about how we gather intelligence, how we know what we're going to do, nor what our plans are."
George W. Bush to the press at Camp David 9-15-2001.

"A nation can survive it's fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly.

But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself.

For the traitor appears not a traitor...He speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men.

He rots the soul of a nation...he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city...he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero; 42 B.C.

The neo-conservative cabal are traitors, people, traitors.

[seventhson]

1. What a fantastic quote Bob, as always.

I want to use it in my book.

Can you give me a citation or a link???

[BurtWorm]

2. Good post!

People should read Anthony Everitt's Cicero for a preview of the fall of the American Republic.

[Patriot_Spear]

3. Considering what a scum-bag Cicero was, he should know...

If the Consul was the first citizen, then Cicero was the first cry-baby.

Of course he aptly paid the price for his sharp tongue.

[BurtWorm]

4. That's an interesting reading of history

So you'd consider yourself a member of Caesar's party? I have to admit, there was a lot about those Caesars that was very attractive, including their ostensible affiliation with the populares. But I'm sympathetic to Cicero's ardent republicanism--which, let me hasten to explain to anyone unfamiliar with that period was essentially democratic, in the sense that it was anti-imperial. I'm not a big fan of the type of republic Cicero believed in, the slow-moving, overly checked and balanced one that the Federalists borrowed when they wrote the constitution. But what is the alternative? If you have an executive that isn't completely checked by a legislature, you run the risk of getting a Bush. Or even worse.

[Patriot_Spear]

6. Interesting reading? Rome Democratic? you sir, oversimplify.

No, the Roman republic was only as Democratic as the Ruling class would allow it. The layered nature of the voting system was only open to citizens who were devided by social status in how they voted. The Roman aristocracy retained the power- Cicero was unusual as a Novus Homo a commoner who worked his way into the politcial Aristocracy.

Where as most offices in the republic had a military function associated with it and required service in a lower tier before advancment; Cicero used his orator's tongue to skip this as well as pursuing his political enemies during the Cataline Conspiracy.

Anthony's wife hated him so much he had his head pickled, so that whenever she recalled something particularly biting, she would have the head brought out and stick pins into the tongue.

To equate the Roman republic with the modern concept of a Democray is at best a misnomer.

[BurtWorm]

7. Duh.

Of course it was a ruling class's "democracy." But the point is it was not an irrational empire. It didn't work, ultimately. But it was an attempt at a rational solution to the government problem, one based on people's arguments rather than a monarch's whims. It seems simplistic to me to overlook this essential characteristic of it because it wasn't politically correct from our perspective.

[Patriot_Spear]

11. You're wrong...

The Roman republic was esentially no different politically in practice than Athen's 400 years before- they were both Empires despite their being Democracies.

[BurtWorm]

19. Empires without emperors

There's a little bit of difference, no?

[Patriot_Spear]

21. Not really...

You're just substituting a ruling class for a ruling family. That's all.

[BurtWorm]

22. Debate for whim

That's what I'm substituting.

[Patriot_Spear]

24. A bit of a hyperbole...

Even the competing Ruling class had basic, similar goals to safeguard. I see where you're going, but your position seems a tad hyperbolic.

Agustus came from the ruling class and continued the pretense of the republic without the actual power residing in the Senate.

[BurtWorm]

25. Hyperbolic?

I'm not familiar with a sense of that word that doesn't describe absurd exaggeration. What am I exaggerating even slightly? Isn't there, in fact, a qualitative difference between ancient forms of democracy and ancient forms of imperialism? Aren't you exaggerating just slightly the uniformity of ruling class interests? I mean, if their interests were so uniform, why were there so many civil wars?

[Patriot_Spear]

27. Perhaps exagerating is a better word...

The uniformity of Rome's aristocracy is well documented; they were all individually ambitious but you have to remember the founding principle of the republic is that powe is always shared, hence 2 consuls, multiple Pro-Consul's and Praetors, Quaestors, etc.

But fundementally, the power was concentrated in this ruling class- and it could be just as capricious in its' excesses (outside of the City) as any later emperor.

[BurtWorm]

28. But it was divided

between the populares, who wanted power concentrated in the General Assembly, and the optimates, who wanted it concentrated in the Senate. Or were those factions some kind of illusion?

[Patriot_Spear]

29. It was more a division of ideology...

The Populares took their power from the mob, the citizenry of Rome- the optimates were more along the traditonal power lines.

Marius would have been a good example of a Populare, Sulla the Optimates.

Edit: Remember, inside Rome politicians were as vulnerable as regular citizens- Office holders had their Fasces bearers as nominal protection.

[tom_paine]

30. Jesus, Patriot_Spear, you just made Burt's argument for him!

Augustus came from the ruling class and continued the pretense of the republic without the actual power residing in the Senate.

Does that sound familiar?

DOES IT?!?

No one is arguing that the governing mechanisms of the Roman Republic were completely similar to the Old American Republic. Just as the definitions of conservatism and liberalism have moved over the ages, so have "cutting edge" Republics.

For instance, conservatives bnelieved in monarchy while crazy liberals were fighting for a Republic. Conservatives were fighting for slavery and "states rights" (primarily the right to enslave other human beings) while crazy liberals were the abolisiutonists and strong Unionists. Conservatives were lynching African-Americans by the thousands as liberals fought to stop it and help them get the vote (now being taken away again by those same conservatives).

Now that slavery is unacceptable and Republics are, conservatives can safely endorse them, though we can see from the Busheviks that they still want their Charismatic Fuehrer to do their thinking for them (don't forget the Party-Loyal Sub-Media)

So you can flesh out all the details you want, but the larger issue of the analogies between the Old Roman Republic and the Old American Republic, and Burt's points (which your last post heps supportremain stands firmly.

Burt, you should thank Patriot_Spear. He made your argument for you.

[Patriot_Spear]

31. My point was how their class collective goals were the same...

I was trying to show that the distinction between a ruling family and a ruling class is minor when their collective power goals remain the same. Empowering the 'People' the populari' is not in their interest.

[tom_paine]

32. Well, that's not how you started out, IMHO

"Cicero the first cry-baby?"

Maybe, altough that certainly sounds alot like what the Freepers call us.

No, I'm not accusing you of being one, but what I am saying is that I have no doubt that the image of Cicero was was Freeped after Mark Antony (of the Roman Busheviks, shall we say) ordered him killed.

If you'll notice Freepers from Roman to the Reconstruction South to today continue to use this tactic of Freeping people after they are dead and can no longer defend themselves.

Sometimes, like John Wilkes Booth and the whoever killed Kennedy for the Nixonviks/Busheviks, they "Freep" them to death and THEN their buddies discredit their memories.

My point being, perhaps Cicero wasn't quite the cry-baby you believe him to be.

Certainly he opposed the Busheviks of his time and for that alone (and whatever his motives) we should give him some measure of respect.

Just my opinion.

[Patriot_Spear]

33. Really, you don't know what you talking about...

It's okay, really.

I'm not sure what this nutso reference to 'freepers' of the Roman era is all about, but if nothing else it's funny!

Really, I've read plenty of Cicero, he was a big puss- you should read the letters he wrote to the Senate after his house was siezed, waa-waa-waa - He ran his mouth and wrote a check his body couldn't cash- case closed counselor.


"The principle office of history I take to be this: to prevent virtuous actions from being forgotten, and that evil words and deeds should fear an infamous reputation with posterity." Tacitus

[Patriot_Spear]

8. The people's trump on excutive power was the Tribune...

The Roman Tribune was sacrosant, untouchable by religion and law, hence his ability to block the Senate by Veto (literally , 'I forbid'). The person who violated his sactity was fair game, and you can bet the knives were sharpened all over Rome for someone so foolish.

Cicero was not so much a defender of the republic as someone who used political to gain what he could not through birth. Truly, he was the first Lawyer and politician.

Edit: The 10 Tribune's of Rome were elected by the people.

[BurtWorm]

10. Leave poor Cicero alone!

What did he ever do to you?

;)

[Patriot_Spear]

12. In my readings I found Cicero rather pathetic-

When compared to other Romans. If you want a Hero of the people I'd look the land reforming borthers Gracchi, of the mid republic.

[BurtWorm]

13. I never said he was a hero!

I said I admired his ardent republicanism. I'm aware of his vanity, his willingness to use brutality to achieve a desired end, his snobbishness, his physical cowardice and all those bad qualities. But he was also a wit, a genius of sorts, a superb administrator in Sicily (extremely honest and humane), and fortunately a prolific letter writer. In other words, he had some good points too.

[bobthedrummer]

14. His observations and thoughts on traitors seem cogent

regardless of his place in history, it's like he was forecasting BFEE IMHO. That's what got me about his quote, it is timeless, a warning to all humanity from 42 B.C.

[BurtWorm]

15. Exactly! Even jerks can say something wise.

Out of the mouths of babes, even!

[Patriot_Spear]

16. Because he had himself as a model...

lol...my two cents.

Peace!

[bobthedrummer]

5. Traitors with PLANS like PNAC, RPMA, Iraq, Iran, HOMELAND.

"This is an administration that will not talk about how we gather intelligence, how we know what we're going to do, nor what our PLANS are."

Iran
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LEO305C.html

Iraq
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/22/dreyfuss-r.html

The Cabal
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact

The Pentagon
http://www.guerrillacampaign.com/coup.htm

The CIA
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/ratlines.htm

TRAITORS.

[bobthedrummer]

9. Corporate traitors, lying traitors, Repuke Traitors...

Repukes and Iraq $upport
http://www.populist.com/02.17.burns.html

Poppy
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Chin111402/chin111402.html

Afghanistan
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/TAL111A.html

Taliban in Texas
http://www.rememberjohn.com/talibantexas.html

The Getaway
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HER206A.html

Traitors.

[seemslikeadream]

17. he who works secretly and unknown in the night

he infests the body politic

"The shadow ruling class within the Pentagon," describes SAIC to a tee. SAIC has strong business ties to the military and intelligence communities.
It should be remembered that the CIA has a decades-long track record of assisting in tne brutal overthrow of democratically elected governments around the world.
The specter of corporations, littered with ex-CIA types, that both control the voting systems and train the armies of countries around the world, is an emerging and frightening reality.
SAIC proudly lists DARPA in its annual report as one of its prime clients. DARPA has also developed a program to spy on American citizens.
"The federal government, its main customer, often doesn't want the public to know what SAIC is doing and, as one of the nation's largest employee-owned corporations, it escapes investor scrutiny.
Today SAIC has racked up more than 5.9 billion in annual revenues.
Former President, Chief Operating Officer, and Vice Chairman of SAIC is Admiral Bill Ownes, who is now Chairman of the Board for VoteHere. Owens also served as Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and was a senior military assistant to Secretaries of Defense Frank Carlucci and Dick Cheney.
SAIC, which is supposed to vet Diebold's elections software, is itself in the elections business
Diversified Dynamics has brought the election process to the technological level of the new millennium by designing the world's most advanced electronic vote recording and election management system.

These people are counting our votes

[nolabels]

18. I hope to get enough time after the fall of * to read more history

I heard a interesting reference yesterday about three senators in ancient Rome that staged fake attacks to over throw their senate and install the emperor to rule over Rome. This would kind of make the use of provocateurs engaged in instigating a coup not that new in history books. Does anybody know anything about this kind of claim
(frankly, I believe MIHOP is quite real)

I have Been looking something about it, but only found background stuff like this

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch18.htm
(snip)
Antony did now what he could have done just after the assassination: he rallied an army against Caesar's assassins. The first of his targets was his rival in Cisalpine Gaul: Decimus Brutus. Cicero called on the governors in Spain, Transalpine Gaul and Narbonensis Gaul, to side with the Senate. But these commanders chose instead to side with Antony. The commander in Narbonensis Gaul -- Lepidus -- had Caesar's best troops, and Antony agreed to recognize him as equal in rank.

Octavian, Antony and Lepidus End the Republic

Octavian was uncomfortable allied with the Senate, and he saw opportunity in overthrowing those responsible for his uncle's assassination. He signaled Antony that he was willing to create an alliance against those they both opposed. Some were to claim that Octavian and Antony agreed that they had better hang together or they might eventually hang separately.

While Antony was winning his war against Decimus Brutus, Octavian and his troops marched on Rome, entering the city unopposed. There, Octavian took charge and in effect annulled the powers of the Senate. He instituted elections for the two consulships, winning one seat for himself and one for a second cousin, and he abolished the law that had made Antony an outlaw. A victorious Antony returned to Rome with his army. Lepidus, Antony and Octavian formed a ruling triumvirate. The triumvirate enlarged the Senate with their supporters. The Plebeian Assembly passed a law giving the triumvirate dictatorial powers for five years.

Octavian and Antony chose not to repeat Caesar's attempt at reconciliation. Against those who had conspired against Caesar they launched a massacre as terrible as Sulla's. Three hundred former senators and two thousand equites were killed, destroying much of what had been Rome's old governing elite. Cicero was among those assassinated -- his severed head and hands presented to Antony. Caesar was declared a god of the Roman state. The two most prominent of Caesar's assassins, Cassius and Marcus Brutus, had fled east and taken command of armies there, and, in the year 42, armies under the combined command of Antony and Octavian waged war against them in Macedonia, Antony performing well as a general and Octavian, who lacked such skills, remaining in his tent. Brutus and Cassius committed suicide. An enemy navy, led by the son of Pompey, Sextus Pompeius, remained undefeated.
(snip)

On edit: spelling on title :-O Also please try to excuse a few people here, we are not all scholars with Ivy league diplomas, but are interested none the less.

[Patriot_Spear]

20. Funny story about Pompey...

Pompey 'Magnus' once ticked off a political rival in Rome who was also the aristocrat in charge of public sewage. He instructed his slaves that whenever they saw Pompey in public, they were to reach into the nearest sewer and through the 'contents' at him.

In this way he kept Pompey bottled up in his own home for threee months until Pompey publicly apologized for insuting the man.

[bobthedrummer]

23. Betrayal of US, our trust, our Constitution, our votes

isn't that what we have suffered since 12-12-2000?

We, the people have been betrayed. The whole world has become darker. We have an Attoney General that advocates secret tribunals, torture and truth serums to closed door audiences of Crusaders armed with 21st century exotic weapons systems that allow God-like power over nature and humanity to be directed at anyone anywhere. And we are financing all of this in a "war against terror" that was supporting the terrorists with our taxes in the eighties.

http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/hidden/teicher.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm

I know I'm ranting, but I feel betrayed by traitors that were installed by SCOTUS and have really messed up this world.

I have faith in the future, but this crew is truly cabable of anything-make no mistake about it. Thanx for letting me rant about these neo-conservative dominated TRAITORS.

[nolabels]

26. I never really put any trust into them in the first place

To assume betrayal I would need to have had some faith that they were going to do some thing correctly. Looking at * life record of failures It is not that hard to assume what ever success he has can be attributed to the ones around him. He knows this, and will always ask how high when they say jump.

This guy is the slave to the people that surround him, he has neither the intellectual integrity, independent forethought or the independent bravery to be able to step out it even for a second. I find it quite humorous when people say he should be asking other people to resign that surround him. This is one main reason he is the best patsies they could have ever found.

If people will remember Nixon (I think he was somewhat of a patsy too) he was able to get up the courage to fire a few people before he went down, much too late of course. Raygun had a better time with many of his exploits; a lot of the Corporate-lapdog-media was already in place at the time, so brushing off a lot of the scandals was much simpler. The critics that use their voice to air against *, have pretty much been silenced

The corporate elite interests have figured out how to game the rest of the population and it is our job to find a way out

Btw you should figure since mostly nobody has ever really paid for many of the nefarious deeds of the last four to six decades (maybe longer) it will only get worse till something really bad happens. Sorry to be an optimist but to me, being prepared works better.