Karma's a bitch: Dean, how does it feel to be "Kuciniched" by Clark?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

Guess who's the far-left tree-hugging anti-war hippie that can't win now? The Dean campaign's strategy of moving to the right of Kucinich and attacking him as a far left space cadet is now being used by the Clark campaign against Dean. How does it feel?

I've watched DU for a year as the Deanites smeared Kucinich as "ugly" "yells too much" "can never win" and "too far left" - and now Clark has come out to the right of Dean, and Dean's getting the same treatment. For every time you said "Kucinich just can't win" Clark's people are going to say it twice about Dean. For every time you demanded we all just rally around Dean the magic man, Clark's people will say the same to you about their golden boy. Perhaps you people aren't as good at astro-turfing as you thought?

That's what you get for compromising so early. You had to pick Dean, who is so far right wing he's closer to Lieberman than Edwards, instead of getting behind a real progressive populist - Kucinich or someone else. Your haughty dismissive attitude against Kucinich fans and Nader voters works just as well when the Clark campaign uses it against you.

You Dean people never understood that your celebrated "netroots" campaign rarely reached outside of the white, upper middle class, educated, liberal culture that is actually a minority in the US. You spent so much of your time attacking Kucinich (and the other candidates as Bush-lite, ironic coming from Dean) it looks like we'll now get someone ever more right-wing and more establishment than Dean. Are you happy now?

Don't worry feminists - I'm sure Clark will be strongly pro-choice, and libertarian enough to legalize prostitution - which a lot of women will have to turn to as the outsourcing continues and the educational system breaks down. I'm sure the porn industry will be happy to donate to a real winner like Clark. Don't worry about Clark attacking violent video games or exploitive sexual entertainment, I'm sure he loves the "America's Army" violent video game that trains a new generation of cannon fodder for the war racket. Don't worry LGBT community, I'm sure Clark will make sure upper middle class gay people don't get discriminated against in corporate America (hope you're rich enough to get there). Don't worry hippies - I'm sure Clark will decriminalize pot, and give out free needles for you to shoot up the high quality dope coming in from the neo-Taliban in Afghanistan - freedom at last, yes? Don't worry "libertarians" - I doubt Clark will burden our corporations with outdated rules to protect your job from getting sent to Communist China for $5 a day.

It looks like the white upper middle class is getting exactly what they wanted - a kinder friendly face for the corporate state. Now that we have the perfect example of the merger of state and corporate power wrapped up in a nice, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, handsomely uniformed package, the Democrats can finally regain their place as the war party of US imperialism. Just hope your cushy upper middle class jobs aren't the next to get outsourced. When it happens, the progressive populists that worked hard to get Kucinich will be waiting with open arms. Please just leave your centrist candidates at home.

Don't worry, Clark can beat Bush :) Bush Sr. could never sell the New World Order the way Clark can anyway.

/rant

[ShaneGR]

1. Nice signature..... NOT

Anyone who groups Dean in with Bush clearly is more concerned with helping Bush rather than helping Kucinich.

Personally, I want to ask you how does it feel to help Bush???

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. Bush and Dean aren't all that far apart

They come from the same aristocratic background and they are both centrists, although they appeal to different wings. I do need to update my US/THEM list in light of the changed situation, I'll admit.

[sham]

27. Have you been living in an alternate universe?

While your naivete and demagoguery are quite charming, you must understand that Bush* is NOT a centrist. Bush* is a right-wing radical. Don't kid yourself.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

48. nope, you're kidding yourself

Sure Bush projects an image of a religious conservative, but he is a centrist through and through - a Republican centrist, so obviously he's going to be loyal to the GOP in the same way that centrists like Lieberman are loyal to the Democratic party.

Does anyone really believe that Bush is a simple good ole Texas fundie? The blue blooded Yalies from CT? Son of Mr. NWO? Now who's being naive?

[stickdog]

92. And how's the weather there in Fantasyland today, WCTV? (NT)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

96. wow what a clever retort

well, not really :)

[ShaneGR]

37. Votes.... with all due respect.... I think you're full of it

Not even one of them Dem candidates is anything like Bush. Period. Perhaps a case could be made for Lieberman but to say that, for example, Dean is like Bush because they would be appeal to centrists is hogwash.

Dean is pro-choice, pro-environment, against war unless it's a last resort, and would nominate liberal judges.

Bush is anti-choice, anti-environment, neoconservative on war, and has proven he'll nominate VERY conservative judges.


Actually, I wanted to also ask you what you will do when the Kucinich campaign comes to an end? Will you support the Dem or will you go back to Nader and keep spreading that "they're all the same" crap.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

51. neo-libs and neo-cons are the same

except for the style of rhetoric, they are the same creature.

"Dean is pro-choice, pro-environment, against war unless it's a last resort, and would nominate liberal judges.

Bush is anti-choice, anti-environment, neoconservative on war, and has proven he'll nominate VERY conservative judges."

Isn't it interesting that you don't mention a single issue about the economy or jobs? It's all about social issues to you isn't it? That's telling - evidentally money and jobs aren't a huge concern of yours?

If you really think anyone in the Democratic party is "against war unless it's a last resort" than you need to take high school history again. The Democratic party has been among the most pro-war groups of people in history, rhetoric notwithstanding.

[ShaneGR]

57. Uhhh, I just didn't bother to mention it because it's OBVIOUS!!!!

Dean would back progressive taxation that helps the middle and forces the wealthy to pay their fair share. All of that money that Bush handed over to the top 1% would re-distribute back to education (job training) and health care.


This is OBVIOUS. But you already know that. You just refuse to admit it.

[bitchkitty]

79. If you say that

any of the Democratic candidates, including Lieberman are the same as Bush, then you're repeating the same bullshit mantra that we heard from some Greens during the selection - it's a lie. Why would you tell such a lie? The evidence is before your very eyes.

They are not the same as Bush. Not one of them is the same.

Edit: damn typos

[stickdog]

93. Dean is for efficient government. Bush is for inefficient multi-national

corporate privatization.

Dean wants to save SS & Medicare. Bush wants to bankrupt SS & Medicare.

Dean is for universal healthcare. Bush is for handing billions to his friends in the drug companies.

[MODemocrat]

85. Bush a Centrist? Now that's a good one!

N/M

[newsguyatl]

2. that's mature

...trust me, dean's gonna win the nomination (i'd bet my life savings on it)... it's easy to get taken by the moment, but clark won't and kucinich DEFINITELY won't get the nod...


but i'm glad you ranted.... hope you feel better...

go campaign for your guy, he needs the help.

[virtualobserver]

10. the money numbers for Dean in the 3rd quarter.......

will send shock waves through the other campaigns.

Kerry may just have to pull out his family checkbook.

[newsguyatl]

12. you got that right!

in addition, folks are gonna be in for an october surprise :evilgrin:

i can't wait.

[virtualobserver]

15. I can only think of one possibility......

the suspense will kill me.

[Demobrat]

19. I can't think of any.

Care to share?

[virtualobserver]

26. check your inbox..... n/t

[Demobrat]

16. You and your darned hints.

What, already???!!!!!

[ShaneGR]

54. I don't like the secret thing, but I think I know what it is....

The big event for the beginning of October will be Dean's quarterly report. I'm going to take an educated guess and say it's somewhere around 30-35 million. This would be unprecedented in Democratic politics and would send a massive shockwave through the rest of the field. Some of the candidates would immediately drop out. Namely Graham, Gephardt, and Lieberman. You could probably throw in Braun for good measure. They can't compete with that kind of money. Period.

Kucinich would stay in because he's simply building name recognition and a donor list for a Senate run against Mike Dewine in 06.

Kerry will stay in hoping he can beat Dean in New Hampshire.

Edwards would stay in hoping to beat Clark in the south and pick up steam after South Carolina.

Clark would stay in because Clark just got in!

[newsguyatl]

56. nah

he'll have a lot, but not nearly that much... let's not kid ourselves... he's no bush...

[ShaneGR]

62. I'll bet you a dollar

He makes it to 30 million. Get ready for a bat on his website saying just that in the next week or so.

[newsguyatl]

67. well i certainly hope you're right!

but i don't think it'll be quite that high (15-20m would be my guess)... but who knows, the campaign never ceases to amaze me...

but that's not the october surprise, just so ya know ;-)

[unfrigginreal]

77. I believe that newsguy is excited about a Carter endorsement...

I will be to!!! Who knows, maybe it will happen tonight on Larry King.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

89. That would be nice, but not HUGE

Endorsements are nice, but they don't have the power to change the race.

Same with an earlier guess about the liberal news media outlet. That would be nice, but not necessarily race-changing.

I'm hoping newsguy's October Surprise is bigger than either of those good guesses.

[unfrigginreal]

94. Agree...nice but not huge...

and certainly not enough to change the dynamics of the race.

I hope that there's something larger on the horizon, to swing votes Dean's way!

[caledesi]

36. You got that right VO because I normally donate $25 here and there

and soon I will donate the "big one" ($100). Oh yeah, if everyone donates the "big one"...Dean will be our nominee and the next president.

[Demobrat]

58. Yep, me too. Mostly through trollsfordean.com, just for fun.

But if Trippi says $100 is the number, $100 it is.

[goodhue]

3. well said

You're gonna be torched but I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly.

[unfrigginreal]

4. I thought you were supporting Clark?

Or is it that you are just so anti-Dean that you would sell your soul to anyone else, even if it means selling Kucinich down the river?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. Clark Wasn't Pure Enough For Him

It doesn't surprise me; I had a feeling this would happen after he dismissed Clark's "revisit NAFTA" stand, and his revolutionary "America has a DUTY to provide full employment" stand, as window dressing.

DTH

[Brian Sweat]

11. You must be sure

that your candidate is (idialogically) pure
for the funky cold medina.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

97. Nope, I don't give a damn about "purity" nor "ideology"

I don't care if Clark calls himself a liberal or a centrist or a conservative, or whatever his ideology is. I don't mind if Clark makes a lot of compromises - I like Gephardt, and he's one of the most compromised Democrats around. You just have it all wrong.

It's not the policy, it's not the label - it's the power. So far, Clark has given me no indication that he's going to do anything about the difference in power between regular people and corporations and the rich. In fact, I'll even give Clark a lot of room since he came from a regular middle class American family like me. I expect him to waffle and backtrack - he's a politician after all.

You'll notice I've never attacked Clark for anything he did during his military career - lots of things I don't like, but to me justified for the most part because he was doing his job.

As I've said repeatedly, if Clark takes a strong progressive populist stand on the economy and jobs, I would be inclined to vote for him - I think he has perhaps the best chance of beating Bush.

But don't let that get in the way of the hypocritical complaints about "bashing" your favorite candidate.

Oh, and "full employment" means "6-10% unemployment" remember? I'm sure Clark the econ professor understands the concept of the "natural rate of unemployment"?

"Revisit NAFTA"? - please. Just like Dean - let me guess, Clark supports putting in environmental and labor protections - some day, right?

Clark isn't the first candidate I've ever come across and this isn't the first Democratic primary for me either. Don't flatter yourself.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. I was fooled by the Clark team for a few months

It became clear the week before he announced what he was all about. I regret I ever gave him a second thought. He DOES have a better chance of beating Bush than Dean, though. Other than his social liberalism, there's little difference as far as I can tell.

Yes, and I need to update by US/THEM list as well.

[slappypan]

5. General Wesley Clark ...

... sending America's pure young women out to turn turn tricks on the street corner, and passing out free heroin to kiddies in public parks!!!

This beats all. This has to be the most ludicrous, irrational, over-the-top, Reefer Madness, hysterical anti-Clark tantrum of the last 48 hours. I congratulate you, sir.

:eyes:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. Yet not a word was directed at Clark, but my fellow Du-ers

I'm just amazed that so many people on DU think that protecting the porn industry is our number one first amendment issue, that legalizing heroin somehow promotes freedom, and that rich men economically coercing sex from working class women is a good thing. I doubt Clark is nearly as "libertarian" as DU is.

Believe it or not, it's not always about the figurehead, it's about the group.

Clark's no different than Dean or Clinton or Bush at this point. Well, there is one significant difference - Dean, Clinton, and Clark need and get support from the EU corporations as well as the US ones, while Bush thought he could rule the world with just the help of the US defense industry and American oil companies.

Hey, if it comes down to Clark vs. Bush, I'll hold my nose and vote for Clark! So there!

[unfrigginreal]

29. Ahhh...but would you hold your nose and vote for Dean?

Since you say that Clark and Dean are the same I'm assuming(and hoping) that you would...but you've been pretty outspoken against him.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. Yes, as I've said a million times, I'd even vote for Lieberman

so there :)

[unfrigginreal]

40. Glad to hear it...

I'm the same as you in that respect...if they have a D after their name come Nov 2004, I'm pulling the lever for them.

[TLM]

66. Gadz... porn hater hypocrites give liberals a bad name...

Sure women should have freedom of choice, unless they make a choice to use their body/sexuality to make money. Then suddenly women are stupid weak children who can not make a decisions about their sexuality and their bodies and need someone like you to protect them from their harmful choices.

I'm sure women the world over can thank you for using your puritan sensibilities to protect them from harming themselves with their freedoms.

I get so sick of this sexist shit... the idea that somehow porn is wrong because it exploits women is bullshit. You tell me that some guy working as a sewage tech, slogging through a knee deep river of shit every day, is not also having his body exploited? How about the coal miner or soldier who risk injury or death in their jobs? Are they not also having their bodies exploited, and for far less pay?

I've never heard of a porn star getting her legs blown off because she stepped on a landmine while doing her job. So should we ban every job that somehow exploits someone or is degrading to some? Guess what... that's pretty much every job.

You do not like porn, don't watch it and don't buy it. Don't presume you have the right to stop people from doing so because you find it morally objectionable... because that makes you just another neo-fascist like Bush and pals.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

98. I agree with everything you said, so what is your point?

Who said anything about stopping people from porn? I didn't you did. When did I say women shouldn't be free to use their sexuality for money? I didn't you did. Take a deep breath and read the post again. You are obviously not arguing with me, but someone else. Talk to your therapist.

[Demobrat]

6. Thanks for clearing something up for me.

I like Kucinich, but there was always something about him that bothered me that I couldn't quite put my finger on. It just hit me. It's not him. It's his supporters. I always had this vague feeling that he was immature and just not "statesmanlike" enough to be taken seriously worldwide. But it's people like you and your whining about Dean's support and supporters that turned me off to him, not the man himself. I'll have to give him another look. Thanks again.

[Evil_Dewers]

55. LOL @ the Dennis Kucinich supporters slam.

I agree.

[CMT]

8. I don't know who you are talking about

but you are throwing a awful big net, I know many Dean people on DU who like and respect DK a great deal--including myself.

[Evil_Dewers]

63. I like Dennis Kucinich

Hell, I'd love to have him as my Congressman, since Gephardt isn't running for the House again. My next Congressman will probably be the democratic mayor of St. Louis (Francis Slay).

But Dennis isn't presidential material, and his supporters here are somewhat childish.

But I still hope DK beats DeWine in 2006 for US Senate.

[Kanola]

9. Are you sure you want Bush out of office???

Keep up these anti Dean or any other threads and your wish in 04 will come true. Constructive critism of the candidates's issues are one thing but attacks are just destructive.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. As soon as the primaries are over, I won't criticize the nominee

Now is the time to do it. Once we've chosen a candidate, I'm not going to criticize. Besides, I'm talking about the supporters, not the politicians. But you knew that :)

[jburton]

13. Clark seems to be the new Dean

as far as receiving over-the-top slams goes.
---------
SNIP

"Don't worry LGBT community, I'm sure Clark will make sure upper middle class gay people don't get discriminated against in corporate America (hope you're rich enough to get there)."

SNIP

"Don't worry feminists - I'm sure Clark will be strongly pro-choice, and libertarian enough to legalize prostitution - which a lot of women will have to turn to as the outsourcing continues and the educational system breaks down. I'm sure the porn industry will be happy to donate to a real winner like Clark."

----
What a bunch of shit.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. that shit is directed at the libertarians here, not Clark

since you're a newbie I assume you missed that whole clash from last year :)

[Bucky]

49. heh heh

Clark is the new Dean. Dean is the new McGovern. Depp is the new Brando. Pink is the new black. Work makes you frie(d).

Thanks

[Bombtrack]

14. Kucinich is ugly, he yells too much, can never win, and too far left

Dean is pretty much the same only not ugly, at least in the eyes of a large majority of voters

sorry

[unfrigginreal]

24. We're still waiting for you to get specific about why Dean can't win...

as you would say "how vague!"

[CentristDemocrat]

30. Let's see. He's a governor from VERMONT.

More people live in Little Rock, AR than the entire state of Vermont. He also signed a controversial civil unions bill that will get him SLAUGHTERED in the South. Dean WILL NOT win if he is the nominee.

[unfrigginreal]

34. So, when Clark CONFIRMS that he supports civil unions...

then I guess you'll go candidate hunting, right?

[CentristDemocrat]

39. You're predicting the future?

[unfrigginreal]

43. Yes! n/t

[charlie]

52. Howard Fineman reports that he does

"Which is where Clark comes in. He is as antiwar as Dean—and as liberal on social issues. He supports gay civil unions and abortion rights, and op-poses unspecified portions of Bush’s tax cuts..."

http://www.msnbc.com/news/959441.asp

So brace yourself, the General may well wind up favoring gay civil unions.

[Forkboy]

60. WOW--Clark will get SLAUGHTERED in the south

:)

[unfrigginreal]

65. It's time to bring the South into the 21st Century! n/t

[charlie]

69. Maybe so...

If the exodus lines up behind CD, he'll lead the way.

[bicentennial_baby]

46. He already said he did

I heard him say it in an interview yesterday...I don't remember which one, but he definitely said he supported civil unions.

[ChoralScholar]

64. Not quite, but your heart was in the right place

Vermont Population: 613,090 (2001 Estimate)
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/50000.html

Little Rock, AR Population: 183,133 (2000 Census)
http://littlerock.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Little Rock is not quite as big as people think it is. Sorry, I felt the need to split hairs on that one I guess.

ChoralScholar

[TLM]

70. Are all your posts this ignroant?

Little rock as less that 200k people.

Vermont as almost 700k.


And again the fact is Dean made things work in vermont where there was very little money to spare... one of the poorest states in the union.

As for the south... the people who hate gays enough not to vote for Dean over civil unions, are not the ones who vote dem ever anyway so it is moot.

However Dean's A rating from the NRA will give him a big boost all through the mid-west.

[CentristDemocrat]

82. Your post was very ignorant.

VERMONT.




He's a governor from V E R M O N T.

[Forkboy]

83. Speaking of ignorant...

does this post have ANY meaning at all :crazy:

[Cha]

81. Anyone who wins the nomination is Going to Win! bush

is toast.

[stickdog]

95. Let's see what democracy has to say about that.

mmm-k?

[GreenArrow]

90. not that I really give a crap about the way someone looks per se

but you can pick up something about someones character. Someone or the other is always talking about Bush's smirk or Cheney's crooked smile, or the way Condi fidgets when she lies. Dean is mean and shifty looking to me, real uptight. Check out the photo in newsguysatl signature--surely there is a better picture of Dean somewhere.

Kucinich looks boyish, but so does Edwards and it's a plus for him. maybe it's a height thing. Clinton always struck me as a televangelist.

[HFishbine]

18. Thanks

I needed motivation to get off my ass and make another contribution to Dean.

[Demobrat]

23. WAIT! DON'T!

The bat goes up in two days. Don't you want the fun of seeing your contribution fill it up?

[HFishbine]

32. You caught me in time - thanks!

I'll wait. But I'm still going to do it in honour of WhoCountsTheVotes.

[caledesi]

47. HF, when the bat goes up, are you going to donate the "big one"

$100?

I am. I can't wait till this quarter is over and Dean leaves everyone else in the dust. Gonna happen because he is running a brilliant campaign that is unpredicented. Dean isn't a candidate; he's a movement.

We have the power!

[HFishbine]

76. Wish I Could

Glad you will. Mine will have to be a little less.

[MODemocrat]

86. I had to send my contribution early because it went by snail mail

It is so much more fun to watch the bat though, but at least, mine will be there in time to be counted into this quarter. It wasn't the last time because I mailed it too late.

[caledesi]

41. Amen HF!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

59. The Dean campaign owes me a lot then

According to you guys, my anti-Dean posts are a huge money-maker for Dean. You should be thanking me for my help :)

[unfrigginreal]

74. We are my friend...we are! n/t

:loveya:

[MODemocrat]

87. Every knock is a break for Dean so bring it on

At least that's what a wise old person told me.

[Melinda]

20. What an ignorant and hate filled post.

You see what you want to see (or is it spread the message you hope will find root) and that's a very small part of the whole picture. Many, many of us that support Dean have repeatedly stated that Kucinich has our hearts; that DK represents all the best of liberalism, but that we know with our heads that he can't win the nomination. Many Dean supporters, if not all, will vote for the nomineee whomever s/he will be. And none of the rest of your hatefilled diatribe deserved the time it took me to read the tripe.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. My God don't you get it? That's what Clark says about you!

"DK represents all the best of liberalism, but that we know with our heads that he can't win the nomination."

Yes, and the Clark people are saying that "Dean represents the best of the liberals, but we know he can't win the general election".

Hate filled? Really, please point out anything hateful, just one thing? Unless you expect me to *love* politicians, which obviously I don't.

[Evil_Dewers]

68. If you know with your heads that DK...

cannot win the nomination, please stop wasting your time and money on him. What, you think DK's 5% support is going to move the party way to the left??? It ain't gonna happen. Way to the left doesn't win elections--A little left of the middle should do the trick since * is so far to the right.

[sugarcookie]

22. If you really believe in Karma...

Why would you post this?

[Eloriel]

35. Uh, WTF?

Sheesh. I can't get past your 2nd sentence:

The Dean campaign's strategy of moving to the right of Kucinich and attacking him as a far left space cade

That's not the CAMPAIGN's strategy at all. The campaign doesn't even need to address the Kucinich candidacy.

Whatever else you've got to say (and I didn't bother to read it), you're flat wrong about that and about Dean "moving" anywhere. He's exactly where he's always been.

Eloriel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

42. Hey Eloriel, jump to the Clark campaign now, your job depends on it

Dean doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the general election :) He's just too far left, and Clark is much more handsome.

"Whatever else you've got to say (and I didn't bother to read it), you're flat wrong"

Thanks for not reading!

[ShaneGR]

61. You've lost it man

Not sure what happened but you've clearly gone over the deep end.

[wtmusic]

53. Eloriel don't waste your time

[Nederland]

71. Exactly

WhoCountsTheVotes is dreaming if he believes that Dean (or anybody else for that matter) has ever attacked Kucinich. I mean, why bother attacking someone who is no threat?

[TLM]

44. Did you miss something? Clark is running as the liberal...

He is putting himself to the left of Dean, not the right.


Opps, guess that just fucks up your whole rant. Did you read Moore's letter about Clark being openly liberal and not running from the label?

[Upfront]

45. Gee

Could this mean you won't vote for our next president? Howard Dean! lol

[Cascadian]

50. Aren't you being just a bit over confident?

It is still early in the race and I think more people need to know more about this man before they really draw any conclusions. I will be looking more into General Clark's stance on everything and try to keep an open mind but my choice is still with Dean.

All I will say is that the Democratic Party better not make a mistake if they nominate him. If Bush gets another four years than it's curtains for the Democrats.


John

[ElsewheresDaughter]

72. myohmy...

[bigendian]

73. Good God, man!

I don't think you would have liked George Washington. What country are you living in?

[Cascadian]

75. My concern is that Clark has not fully revealed himself to me.

I am still seeing many gray areas particularly in regards to his stance on PNAC (Project for a New American Century) and free trade. Will he be pro-corporate? How does he plan on balancing the budget and what about the states that having serious problems? I still have some questions and how is he going to address the situation with North Korea? Will he try to make peace with them or launch an attack on Pyongyang? We almost had a detente with Kim Jung Il during the final days of Clinton. Can Clark try to make amends with the world particularly with allies?


John

[RobertFrancisK]

78. You really need to revaluate your sense of politics

Dean and Clark as conservatives? Sorry pal, two guys that support affirmative action, oppossed the Iraq war, are pro environment and more pro gay rights than any of the other serious candidates, I'd be pretty happy to see one of them in the white house. Kucinich is a good guy and I like him a lot, but let's face it, he isn't presidential material. He looks like the mayor of munchkin city, not president of the united states. You have no sense of American politics whatsoever if you think Clark and Dean are conservatives and Kucinich would beat Bush in 2004.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

99. and yet again all economic issues are ignored

"affirmative action, oppossed the Iraq war, are pro environment and more pro gay rights"

Does being conservative or liberal simply mean social issues? If economics don't enter into your picture, I'd say you were out of touch.

Let's not forget, conservatives and liberals, Democrats and Republicans, all say they want a "good economy" and "economic growth" and "jobs". They have slightly different rhetoric on the subject, and different actions. Don't expect me to take politician's speeches too seriously.

No sense of American politics? I think the official slur is that I'm a "space cadet" or to ask "what planet are you from".

[ibegurpard]

80. Maybe you should ask Dean

I just plan to vote for the guy.

[MODemocrat]

84. Please don't label all of us Dean supporters that way

I've missed very few days of being on DU within the last year, and it's funny that I'm just not seeing the same things you seem to be seeing. There have been a lot of jabs from a few around here, but in my opinion, it's borne out of frustration. Republicans are on television talk shows day after day running the democrats down, so why would you want to help them out? We all here, have our favorite candidate, but you just watch us unify when the nomination is finally made.

[knowledgeispower]

88. Very well said

I'm not sure you are right in terms of the whole pragmatist/idealism thing, but I can certainly see where you are coming from.

[stickdog]

91. Dean didn't make Kucinich out to be a strident ultra-left kook.

I've never even heard Dean mention Kucinich's name.

But it must be a kick to live in Fantasyland, WhoCountsTheVotes.

Can you give me directions?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

100. Didn't I say the Dean campaign?

I obviously wasn't talking about Dean personally, so why pretend I was. Oh, never mind :)

Fantasyland - thanks, some people had forgotten the official slur against economic progressives :)