Opposition Research help on Clark. Can anyone help me find...

[seventhson]

Whether the Counterpunch article has any merit at all, i.e. Was Wesley Clark in any way shape or form involved with overseeing Haitian refugees?

I generally find Alexander Cockburn and Counterpunch a fairly reliable source, even when I do not agree with their opinions.

But after I posted the link as an independent thread I got flamed and several folks said there was no truth to this story.

So I need a little help from BOTH sides of this issue to determine if it is true or whether the author is wrting nasty lies about Clark (or is it half-true).

Are there any facts that anyone can find to show whether this story is true or NOT true.

I still consider it vile that Clark ordered the use of Depleted Uranium in Kosovo - but if this Haitian refugee story is fabricated for whatever reason I would like to know.

So can I get some diligent help out there from those who love to rake through the muck? If it's true let's prove it. If it's NOT true then let's prove that it is a false story and try to find out WHY it was posted.

It is very blackopsian either way.

The events recounted in the article happened really before the dawn of the internet -- so sources on this may be obscure and that is why I am asking for help.

Here's the article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen09172003.html

Let's vet it the old DU way.

Please keep it to facts and try to keep the flames down as what we all really need to know is whether there is ANY truth to it. If there is or is not then we can flame away OVER the facts either way.

Ready, set, go!!!

and thanks

[seventhson]

1. Here's the link to the thread that got locked

(and was previously deleted in LBN)

I understand it is a hot claim and if false we should know it.

But the same is true if it IS true.

Anybody have any idea?

Locked thread with 88 replies on this topic might give you some clues:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=364579&mesg_id=364579

[tjdee]

2. You're feeling really threatened, aren't you?

God forbid the man actually has a chance to campaign like everyone else, and get the votes or not.

The burden of proof isn't on us, it's on the Green party activist that wrote the story. What an unprofessional piece, IMO.

[seventhson]

6. I would suggest you are insecure in your belief that the story is fake

I am cool either way. But I want to know.

If I were insecure I would not ask for help finding the truth.

But to stand there with your knuckles on your hips and say "prove it you greenie commies" is a little ridiculous.

I am NOT a green and I want to know the truth about it.

Let the chips fall where they may. But just attacking me personally for wanting to know is indicative of the depth that the Clarkies seem willing to sink to protect this guy who looks to me more and more like a true fascist warrior. But I admit I could be wrong and want MORE in order to make up my mind.

Okay?

[tjdee]

8. I was talking about Mitchel Cohen.

I wasn't talking about you at all.

I'm saying that COHEN, as the writer of the article, has the responsibility of proving his assertions. I could write an article saying that Dean slapped little children in the Bronx when he worked at the ER there--and ask you to prove he didn't.

See what I mean?

Also, I personally believe that Cohen, thinking of Democrats generally as a sexually transmitted disease, may not be as fair or even handed in his writing as you seem to think.

[seventhson]

14. Fair enough

that is why I want original sources.

and help finding them.

But more often than not I find people like Cohen are telling the truth. He has a lot of articles on this stuff and since it is easily disprovable oif false, I doubt he would say it.

But I could be wrong. Since the ONLY original "source" I have found for this story is Cohen -- then I am looking for more.

Maybe somebody on this board was in the military and served under him back then. Maybe somebody has a direct link to a true source.

But only with that true source can we know. If Clark was NOT in charge then the story is total bullshit and I want to know that.

I went out on a limb based on Cockburn's reputation and bought the story. Now I want verification.

Let's find out one way or the other.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Were they accurate when they claimed Al Gore said he DISCOVERED

Love Canal?

[Octafish]

4. Looking to slime Clark like you do Kerry?

I'm game. GOOGLE Clark, Jackson Stephens and Bill Clinton. Add a bit of Bert Lance, Adnan Khashoggi and Ghaith Pharon. It's a real "gold mine." Happy hunting!

BTW: You're really doing some great work on behalf of Dean there, old buddy. I hope you're in line for a job in his administration's Ministry of Truth. Knowing what you know about NAZIs in the CIA, you'd be perfect for the job.

[seventhson]

9. Kerry and Clark do plenty to slime themselves, IMHO

They remind me a little of the little slugs in my yard, leaving a little trail of sticky slime everywhere that you can't wash off if you touch them.

All I am asking for is the truth, folks -- then we can argue what the facts MEAN.

Was Clark in charge of Haitian refugee camps at Guantanomo or elsewhere and was he responsible for exposing refugees to dangerous chemicals (and if so what were the circumstances- lice, AIDS. sterilization, insects - why???)

Making fun of me just reinforces my resolve to get the truth and to demonstrate that the facts vindicate my position.

[Octafish]

12. seventhson!

No way would I make fun of you. My truck with you revolves around the fact I don't like how you've treated Kerry. The result has bee many people have been turned off to the guy I think has the best chance of beating George W Bush in 2004.

Now you have your reasons, but please know that I respect you for being a decent human being. While you don't like Kerry, you've always treated me with respect. I alluded to the PAPERCLIP stuff because of your association with John Loftus.

That said, GOOGLE away with Jackson Stephens. He's the lynchpin for stuff from BCCI to Total Information Awarness, with Wal-mart and Gen. Wesley Mattoon Clark thrown in for good measure. I kid you not and with all DU respect.

[seventhson]

15. Okay - we'll see

That was polite. Thanks.


Look my bottom line is this: If Kerry or Clark or evcen DEAN is too damn close to the BFEE then I will OUT them as mucvh as I can.

I worked a little with Loftus trying to get the Bush Nazi history known in 2000 and got death threats and harassment and ridicule in return.

Now EVERYBODY who is online knows that the Bushes made their war profits off bankrolling Hitler and exterminating Jews while selling out American GIs on the battlefield (they paid for Hitler's armaments)

So I can take plenty of heat.

If Clark is decent then a review of the record should show that. My review of the records so far is not too good. But THIS story in particluar is very disturbing. The Ft Hood mind conmtrol experiments story is frightening., The depleted Uranium use stories are scary beyond belief.

If Clark was GASSING Caribbean (Black) refugees in camps he was responsible for, then this would fit a horrific pattern of human rights abuses.

We need to KNOW. Did he or didn't he.

Let's find out.

[Zuni]

50. delousing not gassing

and I am sure that was standard procedure wether Clark was there or not. Unfortuantely, bugs and lice carry disease and can cause an epidemic if not contained when people are in a refugee camp.

I doubt Clark had much knowledge or much input into standrd procedure for delousing.

[dsc]

while his article is worthless

you are hardly blameless. You have posted lies about Dean and you well know it.

BTW here is one example of an utterly worthless article you posted just this week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=351492

[seventhson]

5. Very productive results so far. Thanks guys.

Two cynical slaps.

Let me pout it this way: I do research for a living (among other things). Political research is my favorite.

The Clark story would be VERY easy to prove or disprove if it were not quite so old. So I need help.

Obviously there may be a few here who are familiar with Ira Kurzban, the attorney for the Haitian Refugee Center from whom this story apparently originates.

Yet I can find no other documentation for it.

Being the honest and very secure human being that I am I thought we could explore this together from both sides of the argument.

If Clark ran these camps and permitted the illegal poisoning of refugees --DOESN'T ANYBODY GODDAMNED CARE????

If he DID NOT run these camps then somebody needs to tell Indymedia which is spreading this story like wildfire.

And if it is a PLANTED fake story to be a red herring (in other words Clark isn't so bad -- he really DIDN'T poison refugees with dangerous chemicals which caused men to grow breasts -- he only sprayed them with deadly uranium tailings extract in war).

THINK, people, THINK.

This is a pretty serious story however it plays out.

I prefer to know the facts. I jumped on Clark HARD and am not happy so many here think he walks on water and holds hand with Jesus as a pacifist. But I want to know the FACTS about this.

And I need help.

If I were a total bullshitter I would not ask for all the help I can get on this.

Obviously the Clark suypporters want this buried if it is true.But if it is false I would think they would WANT to know the facts.

Anyway, Ira Kurzban, attorney for the Haitian Refugee Center, who is thethe alleged source of this story -- is highly credible. He is a law professor and handles many important immigration and human rights legal cases invovling HaitiANDS. i BELIEVE HE ALSO WROTE A TESTBOOK ON SUCH ISSUES.

In any event if he is the true source of this story his credibility seems VERY solid. He has taken on the CIA AND criminals in Haiti aligned with the spooks.

So this story may very well be TRUE.

But more is NEEDED. Google gets almost nothing on this exzcept the original article. But it berifies that Kurzban is a solid source if he is inf\deed the source. It is HE who is said to have the documents on Clark.

If THAT is not true -- then the whole story falls apart.

[hayu_lol]

53. The only thing you repeatedly prove is that you are still...

a major disrupter on any board you post on.

You are now a political researcher? You used to be a criminal attorney. And you used to work with deprived children. And once, to stroke your own ego, you became a 13 year old adopted Korean girl.

You have NO credibility Seventh.

[OKNancy]

58. Time to go to something else

Wes Clark was never involved with Haitian refugees.....see post 55.

[John_H]

7. If the Admins. allow shameless "opposition research"

of dem candidates--and I don't care whether or not it's DK or JL--to go on here, they need to change the name of their website to Democratic and RNC Underground, and I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with or donate to that.

[seventhson]

11. What I meant was Opposition on BOTH sides

YOU CAN CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT.

But that is what most of us do every day. I figured I would just be honest and call it what it is. But my request for help on this cuts both ways: the research can be used by BOTH oppositions.

Clark appears clearly to me to be the DLC candidate and alternative to the tanking Kerry and, as such, is from the RIGHT WING of the democratic party (if he indeed can really call himself a democrat since he voted for Reagan and Nixon)

So that TOO must be considered in my appeal.

My goal is to find out if he is working AGAINST the goals of the democratic left. And If I hadn't felt that I was sold a false bill of goods by the Clark people here (which lulled me into a false sense of security) I would NOT feel the urgency of getting as much of the "negative" information as I can on this new character.

Sam,e thing happened to me with Kerry. Only when he became a real potential contender did I leap to catch up on where he fits into the BFEE puzzle (or NOT).

Dean, so far, looks very clean to me. Kerry and Clark look dirty.

But I want to KNOW whther this story is true. That is all.

You are welcome to weigh in. But criticizing me for being too damn honest in my request for research help on Clark to prove or diosprove this story is weak.

Why not just find out if it is false and beat me up with THAT.

[quinnox]

10. Also check the skull and bones connections

I'm sure Clark is a secret member of that, too. Or maybe the Illuminati?

[seventhson]

13. NOT Skull.

I don't buy into the "illuminat" stuff.

These guys from skull et all are fascists, poure and simple, with a smattering of real Nazis in the bunch.

Clark seems to me to be a footsoldier for them. Expendable yes man who will do their dirty work.

Somebody said he was in the Council on Foreign Realtions (Rockefeller run/Standard Oil/Exxon Think Tank), though. I have not confirmed it yet.

[seventhson]

16. Simple Question: Was Clark in charge of Haitian Refugee camps???

Did he gas the refugees with toxic chemicals?

Doen't anybody care to know?


I sure would.

Help.

[Eloriel]

17. Sorry you're getting all this grief

I think it's a worthy pursuit, and I hope you'll get some help.

Eloriel

[disgruntella]

18. The proof you seek is in the thread that got locked.

Read posts 47 and 58 and you will find answers. Thank you.

[seventhson]

23. It looks like Clark MAY have been in charge of certain troops w/Haitians

I admit it is hard to prove a negative. But in this case I want proof of the allegations or evidence to disprove them.

Clark was involved in the haiti situation and commanded some of the troops who went to Guantanamo when the Haitians were there.

This story is not definitively resolved yet.

Please help me keep digging.

[seventhson]

19. With respect to Clark and Guantanomo and Haitians

I found this at a military history site:

November 1991 - US Army Military police deploy to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to provide humanitarian assistance with Haitian refugees. Units are stationed at the US Naval Base ....

The rotating units that deployed included the:
503rd MP Battalion, (Abn), Fort Bragg, North Carolina
21st MP Company, (Abn), Fort Bragg, North Carolina
108th MP Company, (Abn), Fort Bragg, North Carolina
504th MP Battalion, Fort Lewis, Washington
571st MP Company, Fort Lewis, Washington
759th MP Battalion, Fort Carson, Colorado
984th MP Company, Fort Carson, Colorado
209th MP Company, Fort McClellan, Alabama
411th MP Company, Fort Hood, Texas
437th MP Company, Fort Belvoir, Virginia
555th MP Company, Fort Lee, Virginia


Clark was commander of Fort Hood in 1992 so in theory at least he COULD have been in command of MP Army troops at Guantanomo.


The claim that a post at the locked thread cleared THIS issue up is not clear. Clark could WELL have been in command of the MP's at Guantanomo/.

Conclusion: More research is needed.

PS - Clark also served at Fort Carson but NOT in 1991-2.

[bicentennial_baby]

21. Here's what I found

According to the CDC, gynecomastia has been occuring in Haitian men since 1981 at least. Where was Wesley in 1981? Also, this was found in other Haitians in other locations as well:

"Since the fall of 1981, gynecomastia has been occurring in Haitian men located in the Immigration and Naturalization Service's (INS) Service Processing Centers. Although no cause has been found, the condition appears to be spontaneously resolving.

In November 1981, several Haitian men at the INS Fort Allen Service Processing Center, Puerto Rico, presented at the Public Health Service Clinic complaining of breast enlargement. Because of this unusual occurrence of gynecomastia, CDC was asked on November 30, to assist in an epidemiologic investigation.

Of 540 male Haitians 18-50 years old examined, 77 (14.3%) had gynecomastia--defined as a palpable, firm, discoid, subareolar, unilateral or bilateral breast mass. Of these 77 persons, 11 had noted the problem in Haiti, and 5 in Miami. Of 187 non-Haitian, male employees of the Center examined, 6 (3.2%) had gynecomastia, and of these, 2 had the problem before the facility opened. The difference in prevalence between Haitians and Center employees was statistically significant (p 0.0005).

After the disorder was recognized in Fort Allen, cases of gynecomastia were found in Haitians in other INS facilities, including the INS Service Processing Center, El Paso, Texas, and the Krome North Service Processing Center, Miami, Florida. Because all Haitians entering the United States and processed by INS are first processed at Krome, further investigation was continued there. On January 4, 1982, examination of the entire Haitian male population at Krome for gynecomastia was completed. Of 522 male Haitians, 52 (10.0%) had gynecomastia. Of these 52, 2 reported to have had the disorder before leaving Haiti. One of 10 non-Haitian aliens processed at Krome also reported the recent development of gynecomastia."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000249.htm

[seventhson]

22. That does not resolve the cervical cancer link and the alleged gas use

But it is helpful.

I found THIS:

GUANTANAMO HAITIAN REFUGEES(NOVEMBER 1991 - MAY 1993)USMC forces assumed primary responsibility for emergency HA to Haitian refugees at Naval Base Guantanamo. The commanding general, 2d Force Service Support Group (FSSG) (I3G G.H. Walls, Jr., USMC) was the CJTF. The 2d FSSG provided the nucleus for the JTF HQ, and the total force exceeded 1,200 personnel (300 Marines, over 700 Army, 150 AirForce, and local personnel from the Navy Baseand Marine Barracks). With interdiction by the US Navy and with Coast Guard assistance,Haitians began to flow into Guantanamo Bayand were housed in a tent city. On16 December 1991, 300 Marines from the 8thMarine Regiment deployed from Camp LeJeuneto Guantanamo to join 400 other militarypersonnel. At peak, the temporary camps atGuantanamo held over 12,500 Haitians.

I still want to see what data the lawyer from the Haitian Refugee Center has which is the cxource for this story. That would clear things up a lot

It is possible that Clark commanded Army (MP) troops there but that is not yet certain.

Some of them were sent or served there under his command at their home base in Texas (Fort Hood)

IF NOT YOU, THEN WHO? IF NOT NOW, WHEN? (JOAN OF ARC)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. More from that CDC report

The epidemiologic findings at Krome show that the cases of gynecomastia there are spontaneously resolving and that the development and resolution of the process appears related to date of arrival. Two possible hypotheses to explain these cases of gynecomastia are 1) that the diet of Haitians improved greatly after they arrived in the United States causing refeeding gynecomastia (1) or 2) that the affected men were exposed to an estrogen or estrogen-like substance during processing at Krome

More here:
Haitian Americans. In the early '80s, Reagan greeted thousands of Haitian refugees fleeing a brutal U.S.-backed dictatorship with either forcible return or jail. As some detainees contracted either AIDS or gynecomastia (the development in men of female breasts), fears caught fire that U.S. authorities had injected the detainees with agents causing both illnesses. After years of litigation, the gynecomastia was linked to improper use of a toxic anti-lice spray. But the continued stigmatization of Haitians as "AIDS carriers" -- aided by a CDC label of "risk group" (a decision revoked after massive protests) -- simply stoked fears that a U.S. biowarfare campaign brought the disease to their community. In 1992-93, when Presidents Bush and Clinton held HIV positive Haitian refugees in filthy barbed-wire camps at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, Haitian American fears were reinforced, and their suspicions persist today.

http://www.poz.com/archive/december2000/inside/secretplot.html

Perhaps you are wondering what my point is. My point is this. IF the refugees were brought here and sprayed with a substance to kill lice that resulted in some disease process, then one would go either to the GOVERMENT or to the manufacturer of the product that caused the illness NOT TO THE one merely at a facility with NO MEDICAL background where they MAY have been administrating it who could not have KNOWN of the harmful side effect.

You post a spurious accusation about Clark based on a spurious accusation by tha author COHEN who not ONLY does not support his claim HE DOESN'T EVEN NAME THE CHEMICAL TO WHICH THEY WERE EXPOSED although he DOEs reference the research as though he has actually SEEN it or has first hand knowledge about it. His article is SO void of facts as to be nothing MORE than PROPAGANDA much like your posts about Kerry.

FOr someone who alleges he is a lawyer, I feel sorry for your clients if this is the manner in which you GRAB at straws on their behalf.

When you allegedly went to law school...did the word CONLCUSIONARY ever come up in conversations?

[bicentennial_baby]

29. Thanks NSMA

Logic is in such short supply around GD these days! :hi:

[oasis]

43. Thank you, thank you and thank you again.

:loveya:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. One last point...before you embarrass yourself...MEDICAL EVIDENCE

is my turf on which I will gladly debate you ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

[IranianDemocrat]

20. Kucinich Green or Dean right?

.

[seventhson]

24. Clark's history/Bio places him squarely within circle of responsibility

Whether, however, he was in a clear position as stated in the article remains to be demonstrated.

So I STILL need more help.

If you care whether Clark is a contender and the possibility that he could be our next president then we need to know.

Did he have any responsibility for Guantanamo and the treatment of prisoners there?

If so did he oversee the exposure of refugees to dangerous chemicals and, if that is true, then WHY?

[Avalux]

25. post removed

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Yes he is a criminal...he de-liced them with an agent that may have

been harmful. I'll bet if one of them had a headache and he gave them a TYLENOL, you would be accusing him of deliberately trying to induce liver disease in Haitians. That's about the veracity of your logic on the matter.

[Starpass]

26. Hey, when you're done with that neat research, could

you research and tell us all what's in Howard's sealed papers??? But you don't have to go too far since the other parties to what Howard has sealed are republicans and big business and I'm sure they talked real nice like to Rove when his minions came to VT to find out what was in those papers. Can't wait until Bush reads them to us, can you????

[seventhson]

27. I wish Dean would unseal them too

nt

[dsc]

31. Can I see your candidate's private papers?

The only stuff Dean has sealed are the following. Memos to and from his staff, correspondence to and from his constituents. I know you don't give a flying fuck about the gays and lesbians who wrote the man in confidence who could be ruined by Rove and his minions but some of us do.

[Julien Sorel]

48. So unseal the things that won't expose anyone.

It should be easy enough to have done. Or are all the papers he had sealed likely to expose gays and lesbians? :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. This Is A Rewrite

I am profoundly disappointed.....


The man gave thirty two years of his life to this country and his career is reduced to poisoning Haitians...

Comparing him with Josef Mengele....

"Forgive them father for they know not what they have done."


OUT

PEACE 03

Brian

[Tinoire]

34. Hey...

Like you this is what I like to do...

Check your in-box. Sent you the personal e-mail of a friend of mine, Special Forces, who was involved in Haiti and denounced the administration for what they were doing big time. He wasn't at Guantanamo (that I know of) but could put you in touch with someone reputable who could help. He could tell you who was in charge so that this can be laid to rest.

I would also suggest you write to this guy who was very involved in the protests against what was going on at Guantanamo Bay . He might be able to verify the story about the gyneacomastia and if he can't will tell you who could. I'll send you contact info for both via PM.

You could also contact Ira Kurzban, attorney for the Haitian Refugee Center since he was the one who got the documents via lawsuit.

Lastly, the surprising rates of cervical cancer among the women may be linked to the forced doses of Depo-Provera they were given without their knowledge. Many of them became extremely ill and I remember this caused a huge scandal. I am not sure if there's a relation there but it's worth looking into.

Thank for all the brilliant work you've done in the past and your solid contributions to DU. Nevermind the people who mock you, that says more about them than about you. The same types mocking you are now mocking those who mocked Galileo... Don't take it to heart.
The only thing that should matter is what those who've worked with you throughout the years think and know and we're still with you- still here ;) and we ain't going nowhere.

I've had a good opinion of Counterpunch over the years and even this story turns out wrong, that will color my opinion but not really change it. The New York Times prints lies on its front page everyday and you don't hear anyone screaming about it. This is no different.

Cheers :toast:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I Am Deeply Respectful Of Everybody's Candidates

Do you really believe Wes Clark is a turn of the century red white and blue Josef Mengele?

Because only a man of that stripe would poison innocent people...


-edited for spelling

[seventhson]

36. Possibly

But we need help to find out if it is true or NOT.

Help us find out

[Tinoire]

40. No I don't

but I respect Seventhson's right to bring the topic up at DU for discussion, since the information is floating out there, and to have other DUers work with him on it.

What I don't respect is the belittling Seventhson got from a bunch of bullies after the kind of work he's done in the past.

Belittling tactics to shut people up are appalling. The only place we used to see such things at DU were in the I/P threads and it saddens me to see them here.

Horrible things have been done in this world.

Is Clark some sort of Mengele? I never once said that but an attorney for a group of refugees claims that some horrible things happened there and claims that Clark was in charge. I don't know if that's true but what I would like to know is did that lawyer really single him out and if so, why. If there is truth in this, I'd like to know as much as possible.

Have you ever read up upon Guantanamo Bay? Those people were treated like animals- dirty animals that had to be deloused- aids-carriers was one of the nicer words the guards there used to use for those poor tar black people just trying to flee yet another brutal US-installed and supported regime.

I have little doubt that they were sprayed with something. Now the question is what was it, was it medically approved, was it safe, etc...

We spray the peasants in Columbia with Monsanto's Round-Up every day. We sprayed our own service men with the defoliant Agent Orange (now called Round-up) and lied about it for years. Gulf War syndrome- we're still lying about it. High-ranking military officers have lied through their teeth about it. We still conduct medical experiments on prisoners

I certainly don't think Clark is some sort of a Mengele the way you phrase it but I do believe there are many Mengeles among us. They operate in inhumane laboratories throughout America that torture cats and dogs because humans and corporate greed are more important and they operate within the US prisons.

The proper question to ask is was anything done to those people, were the harmful results known, and if so, why did they go ahead and who gave the orders?

If the answer to 3 of those questions did turn out to be Clark, then I'd be curious as to the how independent the decision was and why it was made. If someone chooses to delouse human beings with toxic ingredients in this day and age
(and they did- regularly - as are the Al-Queda prisoners to this day www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2002/01/mil-020123-3b2de2ad.htm ), then I want to know and someone must be held responsible.

I'll give you this... Having been in the military, I have a lot of sympathy for people who were just following orders but I still can't condone certain things.

I'll also give you this... I think this is an ugly story that should not even be mentioned with Clark's name but some lawyer apparently did, and it's already out there and it should either be verified or debunked. Counterpunch already published it. This story is half-way around the world by now. If I were a Clark supporter, I'd be researching like mad to nip this in the bud as much as possible now and also to prepare for the onslaught that will come if Clark wins instead of doing what we always do which is bury our heads in the sand and then accuse the other team of not having played nice.

They're not going to play nice. And they already know all off this stuff. Instead of ridiculing Seventhson, people should be combing through this stuff and ripping it apart. If this were my candidate I'd be outraged too because it does seem far-fetched... but here's the deal... You guys are the defense team right now... not the cheer-leading team. The cheerleaders need to stay out of the picture until half-time and after the game. Take these balls and run with them because the game has only just begun.

Don't see it as a matter of disrespect. Please...! This is politics. The problem with the Left is that it always wants to play nice and then gets its feelings hurt. See it more as a matter of finding out the facts and making them known. This is nothing... At least we're dealing with printed stuff here. Wait til Karl Rove starts the print presses- then it's really going to get ugly (unless of course, on the off chance, they want Clark- in which case they'll be real nice- either way it will be an extreme).

Good luck to you guys! Consider yourselves baptized but gird yourselves up for the daunting task of defending an unknown against everything that will be hurled at him because he has no record.

[Zuni]

51. Delousing is a nessecity in a refugee camp

or a prison. Diseases and all kinds of health problems are associated with body lice and parasites. And they spread. In the most mild they will cause sores, bites, and intense itching--at worst they will spread diseases like typhus. (Bubonic plaque was spread by lice).

It would be inhumane not to have delousing, which could start disease outbreaks.
Unfortunately pesticides are needed for a real delousing.

I do not think Wes Clark was in charge of delousing procedure, or even thought much of it. It would have gone on wether he was there or not.

Unfortunately, Haiti has a real problem with AIDS. Last I heard, 1 in 8 adult males has AIDs or HIV.
That is really scary.

[Zuni]

52. toxics are needed for delousing

Delousing is done with pesticides, unfortunately.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. EXAAAACTLY

That's why lice outbreaks in public schools, especially elementary schools are such nasty things...


You are literally putting pesticides on the heads of little kids to quell* the outbreak...

What's the alternative?

*quell is a prescription lotion that kills lice....

[Tinoire]

45. I will tell you this though

I don't like the way the article says:

Gen. Wesley Clark was in charge of refugee camps in the 1980s and 1990s

That doesn't add up right to me. What was Clark in the 80's and 90's? That's an awfully long time to be in charge of refugee camps and it doesn't sound right that an Army 0-6 (maybe at the time) would have been in charge of that.

The main reason I jumped in this thread is for Seventhson. I really didn't like the way he was attacked and ridiculed for looking into this, especially on the other thread. He was one of the first and most persistent to look into some of the more... troubling aspects of 9-11 and he found a lot of information that is still, only now, being accepted by people.

[seventhson]

37. Thanks Tin... it means a lot

I care only to keep fascists out of the white house. Democrats as well as repubs can be fascists or fascist supporters -- especially the corporate kind.

I believe (I really do) that Kerry and Clark are just fascists in liberal clothing and that they are networked into the BFEE.

So I dig to find out if my theories are true.

Kerry is a pretty sold out soul. Clark actually looks worse.

[WillyBrandt]

39. Monstrosity

"I believe (I really do) that Kerry and Clark are just fascists in liberal clothing and that they are networked into the BFEE."

That is absolutely disgusting. This kind of slime could come from Rush Limbaugh on one of his worse days.

Two good men, and based upon NOTHING--I say NOTHING--and you call them fascists. And then there's a lame excuse that you want to find out if your "theories are true."

What is that? Go into a bar one day and tell a stranger "I think your wife is a whore." When he's about to pummel you for talking about a woman you don't know, you say "Wait! I'm just trying to find out if my theories are true."

Lies and smears. That all this is. Garbage.

[Tinoire]

42. He's entitled to his opinion

If you don't like it, put him on ignore. It will make your stay a lot more pleasant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. C'mon Cassandra

Can't we agree that Wes Clark and John Forbes Kerry are lots of things but not fascists.

Also, Cassandra, you're smart enough to know that "guilt by questioning" is a tried and true political tactic to discredit your opponent.

For instance, Nixon would say something like "others might say Helen Gahagan Douglas was a communist but not I" cleverly planting the inference in people's minds...

Let's elevetate the dialogue...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Sorry Tinoire but there is nothing honest about smearing shit all over

everybody just because shit may have occurred. Can you find ONE SINGLE reference to this on a search aside from a very short non-specific paragraph from Mitchell Cohen?

[Tinoire]

41. I didn't look really

but I do know that people were (and still are) regularly deloused and the women were given Depo-Provera... I don't know if the men were given anything but the after-effects described, no matter how funny to people who have never seen the inside of Guantanamo Bay, are not pretty thing. The women started getting really sick and the pregnant ones had spontaneous abortions; if I recall correctly, their hair fell out too. It wasn't until some time later that nurses there informed human rights activists and lawyers for the refugees that the women were being given Depo-Provera and other abortifacients.

You should really look into this. Forget the Clark angle totally... but look into the real story of what happened at Guantanamo Bay with the Haitians. They really were treated like diseased animals.

I'll look a little tonight... I'm supposedly at a party but sitting on a friend's computer typing on DU. Tell me that's not sick! :)

I'll look on the internet ok? And let you know what I find...

Probably in an hour or two...

Gotta go.

Time for a drink !

Peace

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. There Are Some Really Nasty People At Guantanomo

but I support due process and the rule of law because in the absence of the rule of law we have the rule of the jungle....

The prisoners at Guantanamo should be treated humanely... They should be given fair trials where the innocent are freed and the guilty punished...

It's the American way.....


Deviate from that that and you lost Democrat Since Birth...

[oasis]

44. Although I'll anxiously await your findings, feel free to take your time.

:boring:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Here's a case for the Seventh Son truth commission

22. Defendant, BRIGADIER GENERAL MICHAEL WILLIAMS, is the Commander of the Joint Task Force at Guantanamo, in whose custody the individual Plaintiffs are being held. Defendant Williams is being sued in his official capacity.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diana/haiti/2183cac.htm

please note that Cubans and Haitians were housed simultaneously.

Certainly if you are the investigator you claim to be working real hard on this you may have come across this lawsuit today which would PROVE Clark was not the responsible party in this claim...unless my prior suspicions are more accurate which is that you could really give a flying fuck about the truth if it doesn't seem to add up to what you prefer to believe.

[Booberdawg]

47. More reprehensible bullshit from the usual suspect

No credibility or integrity whatsoever

[Zuni]

49. the author also claims that nerve gas was dropped on Yugoslavia

DU was used against tanks in Yugoslavia, but it was a rather small amount (30,000 bullets--not very much in a war). The amount of DU dropped by anti tank guns on planes would create not even close to the amount of radiation that already exists in the background.

I do not think this article is accurate. Wes Clark commanded forces at various bases around the country in the 1980s and 1990s. I suspect he knew and cared very little about delousing facilities, and had no reason to care. But many, many diseases are spread by various lice and they are a true health hazard. Delousing is nessecary.

Delousing chemicals unfortuantely are pesticides, which are toxic. If the author is able to link the gynecomastia (most commonly caused by steroids) to the delousing agent, that is powerful stuff, to sue the US government and the supplier. But I do not think Wes Clark had anything to do with this.

Furthermore, the author gives us no statistics, and apparently is the laywer for these haitians, already giving him an agenda. How many of the men developed this? Are you sure it was not related to something in Haiti, or drug use or some other problem. The primary cause of gynocomasteia is hormone imbalances.

[Zuni]

54. Counterpunch chose a real poor article

This article is garbage.
Obviously this is really nonsense. first it claims the US 'installed' Raoul Cedras, which is not true, and even if it was it has not been proven.
Then it has some completely unsubstantiated claims about using chemicals to destroy crops, poisoning water etc.
Then it claims, Wesley Clark (which it says was Chief of Operations at Guantanomo--which is a High ranking Operational officer not an administrative one) is to blame, even though it says that the delousings in question happened in Puerto rico and Florida.

If Wesley Clark was a mlitary officer running operational procedure, administrative questions about delousings in Puerto rico would not be an issue for him.

[OKNancy]

55. Gracious - it didn't take too long to find

that Clark never had any responsibility for Haitian refugees.

First, the article in Counterpunch says during the 1980s and 90s......
During the 1980s he was either in Washington DC or at the National Training Center in Irwin California. He was also briefly at Fort Collins Colo.

In 91-92 he was at Fort Hood Tx. In 92-94 back to D.C.

The ONLY time he could be remotely involved in the refugee matter was was in 1994-96 when he was head of the Southern Command
which was in PANAMA. The Southern Command was moved to Miami in 1997 after Clark was gone.

HOWEVER----- the southern command was not involved in Haitian refugees during Clark's tenure.

During the Haitian crisis from 1991 to 94 the Haitian refugees were handled by the Atlantic Command, not the Southern Command http://www.jfcom.mil/about/History/abthist5.htm

THe US handed over responsibility to the UN in 1995, a migrant camp was opened at Guantanamo in 1995-----but again under the command of the Atlantic command.

The responsibility for the Carribean was not transfered to the Southern Command until 1997 -----after Clark was already gone.


------------------------------


1980-82; chief of Army studies group, office of the chief of staff,

1983-84; commander at the National Training Center and 4th Infantry Division,

1984-88; director, battle command training program,
he commanded the 3rd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division (April 1986-March 1988), and the 1st Battalion, 77th Armor, 4th Infantry Division (February 1980-June 1982) at Fort Carson, Colorado
1988-89; commanding general, National Training Center,


1989-91; deputy chief of staff at U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command, California

1991-92; commanding general, 1st Cavalry Division, Ford Hood, Texas,

1992-94; director for strategic plans and policy, Joint Staff,

1994-96; commander, Southern Command,

1996-97; Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, 1997-2000

[wyldwolf]

57. Didn't you say you were leaving and called us assholes?

?