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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:28 PM
Original message
The Good Republicans
I haven't seen Voinovich's speech yet. I hope there will be video of it somewhere soon. The threads about it reminded me of something I wanted to say about the whole Republican Party power struggle going on right now.

I dedicated *Snake Bites* to my father, who has always voted Republican--until 2004, when he voted for Kerry, despite hating him, because he was more scared of Bush, and because he knew how I felt about it. I said in the acknowledgments that whenever I hear people talking about Republicans the way Ann Coulter talks about liberals, I try to remind them that there are Republicans like my father out there, who are decent people, and who are increasingly distressed about where Bush and his base are taking their party and, alas, their country.

Although I think he does consider himself a Christian, he's primarily a fiscal Republican, mostly liberal or perhaps I should say libertarian on social issues (he supports same-sex marriage, for instance, for reasons you can probably figure out). But he voted for Bush in 2000, on the theory that he would "surround himself with good people," and it took a lot of convincing to get him not to do it again in 2004.

One of the things I got from my father was a commitment to honesty and transparency in all your dealings, business or otherwise. My father has always operated that way, and although he has never questioned the basic assumptions that support the economic system that benefits him, he has always tried to make his part of the system honest. Now, of course, the big question is: why would a guy like that fail to realize how completely corrupt the Republican party leadership is before it's (almost) too late?

The answer to that question might also explain why Voinovich would vote to pass the Bolton nomination out of committee but try to persuade his colleagues in the Senate to vote against him, or why the 7 "moderates" who just signed the filibuster deal waited until this particularly dreadful pass before publicly standing up to their extremist masters.

The kind of vacillation Voinovich has gone through over the Bolton thing is not necessarily a sign of duplicity. When you are part of an organization, and you have a lot emotionally invested in it, it can take a long fucking time to realize that it's corrupt at the top. You keep coming up with ways to explain what's going on that will allow you to believe that the organization is still healthy, because you don't want to face the fact that the people you've always thought of as friends and colleagues would betray you or things that are important to you (like, you know, the country). I have gone through this myself, and after I finally left the organization in question I was amazed at how long it took me to realize what was really going on, and how long I helped the other leaders justify their increasingly insane conduct out of loyalty to them and to the group. And this was just a piss-ant little electronic feminist community where nothing was at stake. The doublethink effect must be much stronger when your organization actually has power.

Then there is the phnenomenon I see in my father all the time, which is the mistaken assumption that all the other Republicans are, like him, honest and upright fiscal conservatives who may have their little quirks but at least understand the all-importance of keeping the economy humming along and keeping the market honest. It took him a long time to come around to the conclusion that the "good people" Bush had surrounded himself with were fiscally insane. I think he's still working on fully grasping their moral insanity, but one thing at a time.

I sent my dad his copy of the book, and he just sent me a very nice letter about it. He said his favorite ones were "Cassandra's Curse" and "After the Ball." "Cassandra's Curse" is about why it was not possible for more people to figure out that the Iraq war was a hoax until after we were already mired in it. Maybe he identifies. Who knows. He also said that he thinks fundamentalism of all kinds is the most dangerous force in the world and that it is unbelievable that people are trying to stop high schools from teaching evolution.

He's not the only one out there. This is a very big section of the Republican base, and if they haven't risen up against the theocons before, it's because they never really believed their lunacy would get this far. They were wrong, of course; but we were all wrong too, back in 2000 when we thought Bush was just a harmless idiot. It's just taken them longer to wake up.

I have increasingly come around to the belief that there are basically two Republican factions in Congress now: there are those who have been drawn into the inner circle and understand that the gloves are off and the fix is in and therefore never expect power to return to the Democrats, and those who have not been initiated into the inner circle and still think that there will one day be electoral retribution. The second group is starting to maneuver now, partly to protect their own power, but probably partly to try to confirm their own sense that there still is something that can be done to stop the ongoing coup taking place in their own party.

My initial reaction to the filibuster deal was dismay, confirmed by Owen's appointment today. I don't think it is going to turn out to be a good thing for the Democrats. But it does give me some hope for help from the Republicans. Especially in the Senate, Bush's control depends on people always voting their party line (except for the Democrats who can be lured over). In a parliamentary system where there are more than two parties, things are a lot more volatile because even a minority bloc can prevent a majority from forming until its concerns are addressed. There's no way we're going to have a viable third party in my lifetime; but if the "moderates" really are going to form a united bloc, then we may eventually have a functional third party in the Senate, and that would be better than nothing.

We'll see what happens. I wish the Democrats would breathe more fire and lead more battles; I would like to see them standing firmer than they seem to be. But you know what, I don't care who saves me from these assholes, and if the good Republicans can help get it done, then I say welcome aboard. It may be too little and too late; and indeed that may be why Voinovich is crying. But it may also be that if we can make the fight *really* bipartisan, as opposed to the Bush Bipartisan system where the Democrats agree to vote Republican, then things could start getting a lot more interesting very soon.

We can hope,

The Plaid Adder
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Dems are doing better than they have been in the past.
The thing is the manuvering of the moderate Republicans may be part of the party's undoing. Ironically.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree Reid is a huge improvement over Daschle.
And Dean is no doubt a huge improvement too. I am not a political maneuverer, and have decided to try to take more of a wait-and-see approach on this stuff, on the theory that maybe some of the Democrats now know what they're doing. I just hope everyone remembers that you CANNOT NEGOTIATE with Frist, Lott, et al. because they're always dealing in bad faith.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
64. Frist is a hypocritical zealot - Lott was 'cursed' by Dobson 'as a Judas'
Edited on Thu May-26-05 05:06 PM by ClarkUSA
Lott is probably still nursing a grudge against being deposed as Majority Leader.

'Evangelical religious right leaders denounce Republican senators as sell-outs. One of the most influential, James Dobson, has cursed one of the silent compromise
supporters, Senator Trent Lott, the former Republican majority leader from Mississippi, as a Judas, and Lott has called Dobson "quite unChristian".'


http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1492198,00.html



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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. R's like Voinovich keep
'good republican' from being an oxymoron.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. Is it the Dems doing better or the Repugs....
self-destructing? Or maybe a combination of the two?

One highlight: I did enjoy the Dem tactic of basically keeping their mouths shut during *'s Social Security tour. Excellent strategy, nothing for KKKarl to counter, the Repugs just kept digging themselves deeper and deeper.

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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. One hundred percent agreed.
Great way to put it, the republican party has fallen from grace. But the ones who are true americans, may just be able to save it. Voinovich too I believe since he was part of the inner circle, knows how far out of control things have gotten.

I just have this sense in my head he finally said this has gone far enough, and realized his family would be affected by this. Thus the choice of real americans to break with foolish partisan rhetoric and face the evil head on for what it is.
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Dulcinea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. The Repub hold on power will have to be destroyed from within.
I completely agree with that. The old-line conservatives may just end up saving the government!
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. It always starts at the grass roots.....
It's always something that grows from a single ripple, through-out history.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. It can't be easy being a true conservative these days.
Dissociated from their party, they have to make uneasy alliances with the Left. But they do so, because they love the country.

There are wingnuts, Theo/Neocons, and there are Republicans.

If you give a damn about what's best for the American people, you are an ally, IMHO, even if your voter registration is different than mine.

This is a crisis.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Now would be a good time to persuade Voinovich to leave the GOP
and become an Independent, or whatever.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I don't know if he'd ever do that
Who knows if he'd ever leave his party. I'm just glad he's speaking out more. Maybe we'll see him working more with democrats.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. I wish that I'd see things more like you
I work with extremely intelligent, technical, well-educated people -- 98% of which are Republicans. I was very surprised to learn that they were so vehemently supportive of the Bush administration. However, I really felt that they'd wake up as the administration's flagrant misdeeds became public knowledge. This has not been the case at all; as things become known, they support Bush even more, it seems. These people are good people...

I am losing heart because I feel as though I'm the only one who can see that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes. When I tell them that I'm a liberal, they say that I can't possibly be a liberal because they have it in their heads that all liberals are EVIL; they don't want to think of me as evil, so I CAN'T be a liberal! (How's that for logic?!!)
.

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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. My god....They have been zombified!
You should tell them to immediately stop watching Fox News, Bush's insidious gang has pushed out so much liberal hating propaganda all the time it's gotten sickening.

These mad men would round up all liberals into a detention camp, they are so disturbed. Show them the true colors of the administration and I think they will start waking up...(It's a painful one to wake up from, I can assure you...)
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I try
to put articles out that show what's going really going on. Usually, someone will throw the article away, so I've started making multiple copies, and I immediately replace the article with a new copy when it disappears. I think that this really freaks them out because I won't go away. Of course, when a conservative article is put out, it stays out for days. (I thought of throwing away their articles also, but I don't want to be guilty of interfering with free speech, even though it would feel SOOOO good because it's usually filled with lies.)

I keep thinking that I'm going to wake up, and the world will be back to how it should be. I must admit that I felt the same way during the Reagan years, so maybe this really is the rule rather than the exception.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Maybe when you see an article is there filled with lies
try to find an article they might believe that debunks it. Fight fire with fire.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
65. They really don't seem to care...
that the articles are filled propaganda. (Even the people who don't put them out don't care.)
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I agree
Maybe you can have them over once for a nice dinner and show them some good documentaries. If you visit http://www.mininova.org and have bittorrent you can download some really great documentaries. All the way from 9/11 to Bush/Blair ordeal.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Fundies have to do a lot of that kind of thinking
For instance when their family members or friends come out..."Well, you're OK, because I know you, even though you're gay...so, you're obviously the exception to the rule, which I cannot question without having my mind explode. Or maybe I can just forget I know you're gay. Yeah, that'll be best."

I think the terrorism thing is what keeps otherwise sane people on Bush's side. Fear is the path to the dark side, as we know.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Yeah. My family makes allowances for my being on disability.
Yet they want "those programs" ended because other folks don't deserve them. Sigh.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
49. Reminds me of that loudmouthed homophobe the other day who
was talking about her cousin, who "was" born that way vs the rest of us who just happened to 'choose' it. I can't find her thru a search, but I was amazed at the level of delusion and how much people have bought into the propaganda.

Thank you PA for writing this - I was very disappointed yesterday reading some of the comments here after V made that speech. We keep asking for things to turn around, yet so many were willing to jump all over him about his previous votes just as soon as it looked like he was coming to his senses. It saddened me to see too many in our party acting like the NeoCon Republicans that we all despise - "if you're not with us, you're against us" and "it's our way or the highway".

My parents are the same folks as your father. They've been conditioned over the years to beleive what the people running the gov't have told them - and it's been tough showing them that it's been a pack of lies. It destroys a little piece of them to have been betrayed this way. In fact, I think they've gotten more outraged at some things than I have - simply because my expectations were lower and they had farther to fall.

The only way that we bring people into agreement is with open arms - not shouts and accusations. I don't expect every soul out there to agree with me on women's rights, gay rights, taking care of the poor or how wealth should be created/taxed in this country. But I'm willing to put that mostly aside to get as many as I can muster to help stop the neo-con destruction of this country. The rest of it won't matter if we don't prevent that loss of liberty first.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. They can either learn to accept that liberals are not what we've been
portrayed on hate radio and FAUX News, or...






their heads can explode. Keep doing what you are doing, speaking truth to power. That's all that is needed for now.

Welcome to DU.

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. I know what you mean.
I feel pretty alone myself, sometimes.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
46. Hi I Have A Dream!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
50. Welcome to DU
:hi:
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. We've been seeing many cracks in the facade
lately. I hope to see the common sense and sanity crowd overtake the power mad and greedy Republican faction. It must be quite difficult to keep justifying such outrageousness for the sake of party unity. I am glad you brought your dad over from the dark side for the last election. It can be done; hell, I am still convinced we won. What we need is for this "Repubs with a conscience" movement to grow and flourish and allow for legislation to protect our voting process.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. I think we won too
According to Arnebeck Kerry won by 3-5% which seems about right I think. Bush only "won" in the final tally by two percent. :eyes: Not much of a mandate if you ask me.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. I know what you mean
My father is one of those Republicans, also.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Same here
My dad is one and my Mom used to be one. She's no longer a republican and doesn't like Bush at all. I even told her about PNAC and the neocons and she happily voted for Kerry. My grandparents are also that way and voted Kerry. I was really surprised personally. According to my Mom the only reason why a cousin of mine voted Bush is because of abortion. :eyes: I'll have to try talking to her sometime. Heh heh. The neocons really quite outdid themselves didn't they?
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
48. Make sure your cousin knows that there are many more
Edited on Thu May-26-05 09:21 AM by tblue37
abortions under Bush than there were under Clinton.

If she really wants the abortion rate lowered, she needs to be voting Democratic.

The reason, of course, is that Republican administrations pretend teens won't ever have sex if we tell them not to, so they make it hard for them to learn about and use contraceptives when they do. Abstinence-based sex ed reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies. Abstinence-only sex ed causes the number of unwanted pregnancies to go up, thus leading to more abortions.
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
59. My mom and grandma
both like Bush, my stepdad actually doesn't like him that much and voted for Kerry.

I try to give my mom facts about what Bush and his ASSministration is doing but she always has to counter it with "You can't believe what you see or read in the media or on the Internet." I usually throw it back at her and say "Do you believe whats on TV and the newspapers?" She will usually admit that she doesn't in which I comment that not everyone knows what the gov't is doing. My mom says she likes Bush because he is a "strong President and doesn't pussy foot around like the last presidents have." (I have a feeling that she was talking about Clinton) This all coming from a woman who liked Nixon. She told me that it wasn't Clinton that opened the trade to China but it was Nixon.

Ok, can someone tell me the truth?

Dee
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. You're right: we can hope
And I hope you're right. Maybe that is why Voinovich sent Bolton to the Senate. To do his speech and try to show his colleagues what's happening to the country. I also don't care who saves us as long as someone does so we can get back on the right track to our country. I remember when I first found out the truth about Bush and all his croonies. It was heartbreaking to know this can happen in this country. I also don't care who saves us whether it be Voinovich, McCain, Kerry, Kennedy or hell even Liberman. I just wish someone would!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for clarifying that. n/t
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. Another good post.
I think Voinovich's tears were genuine. I think some lightbulbs are going off. He's having some internal dialogue.

I just hope he listens to the good angel instead of the little devil.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. I hope so too
If you haven't write him. Maybe it'll help him to know people are out there on his side with this. Who knows the difference it could make!
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I did write him to say thanks and I also
took the opportunity to reinforce that Bush is leading our country down a dark path, and referenced Bush admonishing Republicans yesterday not to listen to their constituents and his barely veiled threats against Repugs who don't tow the line.

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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. I agree...
actually I am constantly concerned about being considered a freeper here because I know a lot of Republicans I like.

I am surrounded by them in my neighborhood and interact with them daily.

Voinovich truly moved me today. I will always respect him for that, even if I disagree with his other positions.

On another note - I do like Olbermann, but he was a jerk about this Voinovich thing tonight.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Me too
I also know a lot of Republicans, and I also interact with them every day. Mostly though, I just feel bad for them. Most of them really think that they're being good, loyal Americans, and when we say the truth, they really think that we don't love America. You can say whatever you like to them about the fact that we do what we do BECAUSE we love America; they're just never going to get it. It's like trying to talk sense into someone like Archie Bunker. (Even when they're really intelligent in other ways.)
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I have a few who I have admitting a lot of things now
about Bush & Co. that they never would have two years ago. I work slowly and methodically to help them see the truth without being radical.

They are good people - they don't think I am a bad American. Luckily I have never run into that. I interact with a lot of their kids, so I think realize that liberals aren't all that bad - either that or they're afraid I might wait-list their little ones, so they are just nice to my face!!!
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Hamsta1 Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
51. Olbermann on Voiny

I was kind of surprised by how Olbermann treated Voinovich last night.. He was basically taunting him like "Boo hoo, look at the crybaby" as if he'd never seen a grown man get weepy like that before. This is part of the problem-when a repube stands up and deserves props for speaking the truth they get jeered by some on our side. That can be enough to just barely nudge someone off the fence who might be leaning towards our side back to the other side. If that made any sense, that is.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well said.
"The kind of vacillation Voinovich has gone through over the Bolton thing is not necessarily a sign of duplicity. When you are part of an organization, and you have a lot emotionally invested in it, it can take a long fucking time to realize that it's corrupt at the top. You keep coming up with ways to explain what's going on that will allow you to believe that the organization is still healthy, because you don't want to face the fact that the people you've always thought of as friends and colleagues would betray you or things that are important to you (like, you know, the country). I have gone through this myself, and after I finally left the organization in question I was amazed at how long it took me to realize what was really going on, and how long I helped the other leaders justify their increasingly insane conduct out of loyalty to them and to the group. And this was just a piss-ant little electronic feminist community where nothing was at stake. The doublethink effect must be much stronger when your organization actually has power."

I've been in this position twice on huge issues: religion and politics, the two biggies. I dealt with the religion issue first. It took years to see through the lies and I still deal with the after-effects of brainwashing. Being able to think clearly led me to officially freak out when * started posturing at Iraq. It was then I switched parties.

If moderates can come together to save our asses, I won't complain. Like you, I still think the filibuster deal was a bad call. But we'll see, won't we?
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Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. Another great post.
I'm not as optimistic, or as generous as you. Maybe since I'm a blue-girl in a red state, I just feel I can't be. My husband feels the way you do. (Thank God he's so tolerant!)

Just as I feel the German people were responsible for their tacit support of the Holocaust, the folks in the U.S. that support the destruction of our democracy should be held responsible for that support. I know a lot of people say they don't know any better; are ill-informed; etc. But, isn't that letting adults not be responsible for their actions?

I hope and pray that you're right and we will have a real "third party" from the Moderate Republicans, but I'm not counting on it.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Moderate Republicans
I also don't see a real "third party" coming from the Moderate Republican politicians. Most of them seem to be like whipped dogs with their tails between their legs always ready for the next beating. (I don't mean this in a derogatory way.) I know that it sounds weird, but they almost seem like they're people who have abusive partners. (It takes an extremely large amount of courage and energy to get out of these relationships.) Unless their constituents call for it, they'll probably not have the courage to do any more than they're already doing -- working up enough energy to occasionally say "that's enough", knowing that the beating is coming after they defy their leadership.)

Arlen Specter is my senator. He used to be a Democrat and changed to be a Republican. For a long time, I hoped that he's finally say "enough is enough" and at least become an Independent. I no longer think that this is even remotely possible.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Welcome to DU ...
fellow Pennsylvanian. I know moderate Republicans and those who claim to be, but care only about their bottom line regardless of who they hurt in the process. I sort of fought with a true mod Repub friend about Specter. He might not always be my foe, but he certainly is not my friend. Anymore, he seems to be a temperamental lap dog at best. Anyway ... glad you're here. :hi:
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. I'm also from Western PA...
We may be neighbors. (Never mind -- all of my neighbors are either Republicans or Democrats who support Bush. Makes me want to weep sometimes!)

Thanks for the welcome!
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. Good post.
I know a lot of Republicans; only a few are truly Evil. But the rest are either deliberately ignorant -- in that they pay no attention to current events and base their vote (if they vote) on some uninformed notion about Morals and Patriotism -- or they have bizarre personality problems that cause them to be uncomfortable around gays and black people.

The type of Republican your dad seems to be is an increasingly rare breed, I think: mostly old guys -- Old Money types and other fiscally-oriented people. What a shock it must be for them to see these nutbars taking over.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
31. The Dems are too busy telling us what they can't do.
They're too weak. They have no power. They don't have enough money. Then they tell us they have to become more like, or pander to, the Republicans to become strong and powerful and get more money.

As said in another thread, it's all a charade to keep us thinking that we have an opposition party...or, a functioning democracy. Rather than the oligarchichal system that is in power and the politicians that perpetuate it.

This is best demonstrated by the fraud perpetrated with the "compromise" that seated Priscilla Owen and called a victory by both sides. A candidate that was "unacceptable" 2 days ago.

We must abandon allegiance and belief in either of the corporate political parties and vote for what is right. Something the politicans have failed to do.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm with you on the "hope," I see the Tide turning, as well.
Edited on Wed May-25-05 09:47 PM by AuntiBush
But like you said, it may be a little too late.

Still, Republicans like Voinivich standing-up against Bolton, and late today Hatch vowing to stand united w/Dem's and other Republicans for Stem Cell Research and to take Bush on, just on this very issue gives credence to the point made.

Bipartisan united against the true axles of evil on that Craggy hill is all the hope we have left, at this point. We can't be the only ones feeling this strangeness about us.

Maybe some of the Republicans love their children and grandchildren, too, after all because the way they follow Bush's every command I had assumed they're party (Fascism) meant more to them then America's future much less our children.
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
38. even barry goldwater was disgusted by the modern GOP
and blasted newt and crew right before his death-he would have loathed boosh even more
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
39. Plaid Adder should know there "ain't no such thing!"
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. With all due respect....
all republicans are very, very seriously deluded.

Every one of them lives in a tunnel of illusions and self-deceptions induced by the few bucks they get back in tax breaks which serves as a bribe for them to look the other way and smile while the republican party turns the entire world into a toxic steaming pile of dogshit.

At this juncture, no reasonable, decent human being could possibly associate themself in any way with the republican party.

How could anyone not see what Reagan was, and what Bush was and is, and not see that the ultimate goal of the republican party has always been to establish a fascist corporate dictatorship in the US?

The evidence for this is, basically, almost everything that the republican party has ever done.


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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
41. My dad too voted Dem on Nov. 2 '05 for first time in his life
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batsauce Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
42. Sadly,
A LOT of Republicans saw Kerry as very much a "liberal".
"liberal" is more of a term applied by the right to the left, but it has meaning to the Republican base. It means that there is a group that is fundamentally hostile to its basic values. ( For instance, believe it or not, issues such as as gay marriage. They see this as hostile to their basic values, believe it or not)

If the Moderate Republicans see the Democrats pushing someone they see as "Liberal" the only place they have to go (in their view) is further Right. People who would never vote for Bush will in fact vote against Kerry.

The only way for Democrats to disengage the Moderate Republicans from the Right wing of the Republican party is to NOT be perceived as "liberal" (as defined by the right)

I don't have any solutions for this problem I'm just working it out in my own head. But it is worth noting that Clinton was the only Democrat elected in a several year span, and it did it by going to the middle.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
43. Hope is one thing...
...believing in fantasy is quite another. It is a sign of redemption if a Republican says nothing about his party's shadowy, secretive, power-grabbing government but votes the way the other side likes once in a while?

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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
45. Marvelous and insightful as always, Plaid Adder !
Sometimes we fail to remember that there actually are alot more folks 'toward the middle' of both parties than on the ends at which most of us (and FR) dwell.

The 'moderate' Republicans are the ones we should have 'hope' for; because I do believe they love their country and really have no idea/ wouldn't condone what the fundie/fiscal maniac branch of their party is up to.

Thank you for this lovely reminder. :grouphug:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
47. In the northeast, "good " Republicans used to be the norm
fiscally conservative, yes. Concerned with business, yes. But fairly ethical, and believing their personal religious beliefs were personal. Concerned with communities and family (in the real way, not the current "pro-family" anti-family crap)

I've known plenty in this mold. I know it's possible. And I hope you're correct, and that these people will begin to realize that they've been used and tossed out like a dixie cup.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. I second that
The ethical side is what's missing with the group in charge these days. The ultimate "got mine, screw you" people. Most of the Yankee Republicans I knew were fiscal and social conservatives but ethical people who believed their way was better for the whole community, not just their own little fiefdom. They were tolerant of a difference of opinion and absolutely did not impose their religious beliefs on everyone else.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
52. The only good republican is a ...
I give no quarter to ANY republican. Even the "moderate" republicans who are "open minded" on social issues, embrace an exploitative economic system. Pigs, one and all.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. THANK YOU
Edited on Thu May-26-05 10:59 AM by Skittles
they used to just annoy me - now they are trashing my life, my country, my future - REPUBLICANS STINK and to me there is no such thing as a MODERATE republican as long as they are "goosestepping" to NEOCONS.

I cannot understand how ANYONE could EVER have voted for that incompetent, evil bastard but then, perhaps living in Texas I had better insight.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
54. I can relate to this
Thanks, Plaid. This was a thought provoking post. I grew up in Indiana in a fundamentalist c'tian conservative Republican home. My parents and the people like them in my home town were good people, but very gullible. They will embrace anything wrapped in christianity and patriotism. Most will never change because they have absolutely no faith in their own common sense. They rely on authority figures to tell them what to believe and are too insecure to break with the majority opinion in their communities.

I can't tell you how many times my dad was cheated by slick-talking salesmen who pretended to be good Bible believing Baptists while they picked his pocket. Even as a child I could see through many of these schemes, but Dad never learned. He went to his grave just as he came into the world: poor.

I'm sure some small percentage of people like that are capable of changing, of coming to the realization that the Bush Administration is just another bunch of hucksters wrapped in god and patriotism, trying to pick their pockets. Emotional pleas by Republicans like Voinovich have a much better chance of planting the seeds of doubt in the minds of the Republican faithful than Kerry, or Dean or Reid. It appears the Republican juggernaut is starting to crack.

GOPFighter
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you for your wonderful comments.
Edited on Thu May-26-05 12:26 PM by JDPriestly
I have always thought of myself as liberal, but middle of the road. I'm older and remember a time when I voted mostly for Democrats, but also for a good Republican now and then. It's the lying of the Republicans since Nixon that has completely soured me on them. I feel they cannot be trusted.

In all fairness, I remember the Johnson era, when we Democrats were split over a president who lied to us. As Bush speaks to the dreams and values of the fundamentalist Christians, Johnson spoke to our liberal dreams and values. He fought discrimination, offered hope to the poor, and promised to do so many things that we felt were important. But, like Bush, Johnson was in the pay of the military-industrial complex, and like Bush, he was willing to lie to involve our nation in a hopeless war that we could only lose -- even if we won in a military sense.

Recently, I have been reading parts of the Federalist Papers. I've had my copy for years, but never managed to read through it. It's not exactly a page-turner, so I've been reading it in bits and pieces on topics like the judiciary and the appointments provision of the Constitution as they arise in the news.

In reading the portion on the appointments provision, I realized that the vision of the Founding Fathers (at least of the authors of the Federalist Papers) was that members of Congress would vote according to their individual interests, even biases. The expectation of the Founding Fathers was that legislators would function like the herd of cats that makes up the Democratic Party. They believed that a single person, the president, by himself should nominate officers of the government so that all the conflicting interests of the senators would not prevent the appointment of good people. By voting as a solid block regardless of their consciences and without reflecting the specific interests of their constituents, Republicans are not living up to the expectations of the Founding Fathers. I don't think the Founding Fathers viewed the tendency of legislators to vote according to their parochial interests or biases as a positive thing, that is how they thought things would work -- and the Constitution is written with a deliberative legislature in which different interests compete in mind. If the Republican senators move away from their recently adopted practices of uniform thinking and bloc voting, it will make the legislature a more creative place and allow the Senate to play its proper role in the ferment of ideas that makes democracy creative and strong.

I have been very disappointed in the Democrats that compromised on the judges -- because of the psychological impact on the voters of watching Democrats cave on everything constantly. Your article has made me stop and think. There are lots of Republican moderates -- including some of my friends and people I have worked with and respected -- maybe this is an opportunity to reach out to them. I just don't want to see the Democratic Party drifting further rightward. I don't want to see us pulled by the promise of power toward a compromise in our values. Democratic liberals in the US are the last bastion of sanity in a world that is increasingly divided between the obscenely rich and the desperate poor, the rabid free marketers on the one side and anarchists that oppose modern civilization on the other.
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carnie_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
58. Abraham Lincoln
Margaret Chase Smith, and Ike were Republicans. We need more like them.
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Callboy Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
60. the real problem is with the other side
this guy doesnt deserve your sympathy. RNC has done nothing good for you and now you are ready to hug the first guy who gets a bit outspoken......come on. he contributed to the problem by being RNC.....
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Callboy Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. you can not succeed as a party of victims
stop whining over these guys and get it together!!!! They just love it when you play into them, whining all the time
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
62. Excellent post - should be read by all DUers. And here is a quote to
Edited on Thu May-26-05 04:30 PM by Nothing Without Hope
show how old this phenomenon is:


It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good. -Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)


As for Voinovich, I'm betting that AFTER he missed the chance to stop Bolton in committee, the neocons showed him something, some plan, that has absolutely appalled and terrified him. A plan for a nuclear war on Iran? For martial law? Who knows - but I don't think he was JUST crying over Bolton. He was truly shaken about the future of this country.

The reason why your post is so important is that there is entirely too much black-vs-white thinking at DU. Anyone voting GOP must be evil incarnate and cannot be reached with logic or truth. This is not only false, it is counterproductive in a major way. WE CANNOT WIN IF WE TURN AWAY PEOPLE WHO HAVE VOTED GOP BUT MIGHT LISTEN NOW. A nation-wide groundswell of opposition to the criminals in the the government must include all kinds of people - in this opposition to corruption and criminality, we AGREE with honest Republicans like your father. These people must be reached out to and welcomed when they see what is really going on. We are the ones that preach inclusion, tolerance, and multilateralism. We need to live it, both at DU and in the real world.
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ggppink Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
63. Doesn't this belong in the Politics forum?
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. The last Christian died on the Cross...
The last good Republican died at Ford's Theater.

I don't share any warm feelings for Republicans of any stripe. They are ALL evil based on ignorance, greed, stupidity, or callousness. I'm sorry your father falls into this category.

Voinovich is a piece of tripe. He could have killed Bolton's nomination in committee. Instead he sheds crocodile tears while watching the bastard get appointed. Pathetic. And even more disturbing is that people at DU who are supposed to understand what's going on are buying into it.

If we don't TRULY KNOW the enemy, we will never defeat them.
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