The real reasons why repukes want "school vouchers"

[Deja Q]

1. To eradicate those evil public schools for good.

2. To give money to private schools, just about all of which just happen to be Catholic or some other godawful variant of so-called "Christianity".

3. To eliminate government and public institutions in order to privatize everything about America.

Given how the economy turns to shit every so often and how "the bottom line" means more to private industries than anything else, we mustn't let this form of "capitalism gone evil" destroy it all.

Okay, public schools need help. But repukes don't want to put money into any of it; and given a choice wouldn't want to give out "school vouchers" either. In their callous little shithole of a world that they wish to create for us all, parents would pay for it all and more.

Why doesn't the public understand how callosu and cruel repukes are; "school vouchers" is just one small example of their evil!

[Blue_Chill]

1. And they will get school vouchers

unless someone figures out a way to fix public schools. You got any suggestions?

I can tell you this, in Chile this nations seniors would be in 10th grade and laughed at.

[GOPFighter]

9. Most public schools do a great job...

...considering the problems they must overcome. Public schools must provide a decent education for all, including those who are severly handicapped (which can often be very expensive and it makes the "per-student" cost seem much larger than they really are), they are constantly being second-guessed by whacko religious types who pressure the schools to teach creationism as science, get rid of any books in their libraries that offend them, and to stop teaching kids about sex. Teachers are poorly paid and college educated parents seem to have less and less respect for teachers' training and expertise in their field. And more and more kids just don't care. They are now facing 12 years plus four more in college, plus possibly one or two years of graduate school before they can get a decent job. Many just give up and end up disrupting their classes.

Our educational system needs a TOTAL overhaul.

GOPFighter

[Blue_Chill]

18. Great job?

I graduated from one of the better public schools in the nation and my senior year English class was full of idiots that could barely read.

[GOPFighter]

29. And whose fault was that?

The school system or the students? Read my full post. I said they do a good job considering the burdens they are saddled with. One of the problems is that even the best school systems in the world CAN'T force kids to learn if the student doesn't do the work.

I graduated from a good school system, but I was lazy and didn't apply myself. My grades sucked! But after four years in the Air Force and seeing the real world, I realized I was going to spend the rest of my life assembling auto parts unless I got my ass in gear. I went to college, got a degree and found that knowledge truly made my life more interesting...exactly what my high school teachers kept telling me years ago!

[Blue_Chill]

47. The schools of course

You shouldn't pass kids that can't read. Doesn't take more funding to scribble an 'F' on someones report card.

[JNelson6563]

31. the schools here are

very good. My daughter is in 9th grade and knows geography like a whiz and is a superb writer. Both she and my son do very well in math and my son is excellent at science. While I believe them both to be bright I know much of it is their teachers. I take the time to meet with them, keep up on how school's going for them and have raised them to understand how important education is.

Part of this academic success may be in part due to the fact my husband and I (especially me) are readers. Always got the kids books from library as well as buying them. Being great mimics it's always good for kids to see a lot of reading going on. I can't help but think that playing lots of classical music may have helped my daughter decide to play the violin and my son the cello. Much encouragement at this end (home) but it has been in partenership with their educators (some of which have been superb!).

Our school district places in the top 10 in our state every year out of some 400+ districts and (I believe) they are the only one of the top 10 who get the lowest funding per student allowed by Michigan law. I am proud (make that "damn proud!") of Traverse City schools and how much the teachers/administrators are able to accomplish with so little.

Do not paint with too broad a brush. Your personal experience is just that, your personal experience.

Julie--who likes to see credit given where it's due

[spooky3]

32. Congratulations and I wish all parents were like you!! :-)

[Deja Q]

10. Glad you asked, here's a list - feel free to add to it if you care...

Hold teachers accountable. Find ways to reach out to struggling students. They should get involved more.

Hold parents accountable. Find ways to make them raise their children properly or take the kids away and give them to parents who WILL parent. Parents who don't care shouldn't be allowed to have children as they'll only make things worse for the rest of society.

Hold students accountable. Make 'em wear proper outfits (not necessarily uniforms but at least have a proper dress code so lewd and distracting rubbish won't be worn or tolerated). The "A-F" grading system needs to be backed up to encourage students that getting an "F" is a very bad thing. And as for corrupt students, the bullies and animals and so forth? Simple expulsion and suspension do nothing if the parents don't care; the parents often don't as that's how most bullies end up being that way. Cart 'em off to jail or boot camp if need be. The system is a mess and a stern system needs to be put into place to get everything sorted back out.

Hold the administration accountable. They need to assess individual students not doing their best or being disruptive and deal with the m appropriately. Simply ignoring the problem, burying it, or having a canned wide-base all-in-one "solution" doesn't help those who are having problems. Some students are good but have emotional problems; carting them off to the "special education" classes does them no good at all.

Lower class sizes (anything more than 25 kids to 1 teacher is just wrong.) Get updated materials. Make the material interesting so the kids will want to learn (hour upon hour of cut'n'dry material won't do any good; people learn and do best at something they're INTERESTED in.)

Inner-city schools suffer the most, don't get the money, morale is low, and all that means nobody gives a fuck about accountability. An infusion of cash would help, but that cash always seems to go to the wealthy districts who don't need the extra cash. It's like society wants anybody in the city to die off, to be replaced by "suberbia". :scared:

Repukes are taking advantage of a sad situation in order to move their political ideals forward.

Sounds like you're for vouchers and that stuff. Obviously I care about the system enough to offer some crackpot ideas. All you want to do is ditch the current problem; a nice easy midless solution, the results of which will ultimately lead to more problems down the road. Let's fix the problem rather than to ditch the whole kit'n'kaboodle in favor of something we know is just a stepping stone for something far more sinister and vile. (Also consider the amount of good paying jobs going 'bye bye' in America; we're becoming a nation of Wal-Mart (or other poverty-pay) employees. Without money for the parents to give to the students, we'll eventually have a system of where the upper class learns and the lower class lives in poverty and virtual slavery. The repukes know this will happen as they want parents to pay for it all in the end, yet allow businesses to keep good jobs few and far between while CEOs make millions if not billions.

And apart from learning what is nothing better than "humanity's latest myth" along with all sorts of intolerance toward others, what do they learn?

[Blue_Chill]

17. response

Hold teachers accountable. Find ways to reach out to struggling students. They should get involved more.

Good luck dealing with the union on this one. I completely agree with you that greater accountablility is key to fixing our public schools.

Hold parents accountable. Find ways to make them raise their children properly or take the kids away and give them to parents who WILL parent. Parents who don't care shouldn't be allowed to have children as they'll only make things worse for the rest of society.

Climb down form your ivory tower and look around at our child services crisis. You would thow more children in to the hands of these people?

Hold students accountable. Make 'em wear proper outfits (not necessarily uniforms but at least have a proper dress code so lewd and distracting rubbish won't be worn or tolerated). The "A-F" grading system needs to be backed up to encourage students that getting an "F" is a very bad thing.

This is very difficult in an age where parents sue schools for failing their children. I agree with you however teachers should not be afraid to fail students that don't deserve to pass.

And as for corrupt students, the bullies and animals and so forth? Simple expulsion and suspension do nothing if the parents don't care; the parents often don't as that's how most bullies end up being that way. Cart 'em off to jail or boot camp if need be. The system is a mess and a stern system needs to be put into place to get everything sorted back out.

Boot camps are horrible places to throw away children. Send them to child counselors and have them placed in seperate classrooms until they learn to behave.

Lower class sizes (anything more than 25 kids to 1 teacher is just wrong.) Get updated materials. Make the material interesting so the kids will want to learn (hour upon hour of cut'n'dry material won't do any good; people learn and do best at something they're INTERESTED in.)

I have never enjoyed small classrooms. I find them annoying and much more of a difficult enviroment in which to learn anything. I think a better solution is to ensure that teachers have help in helping kids that need it. For example children that send up certain red flags in preformance get assigned a tutor.

Inner-city schools suffer the most, don't get the money, morale is low, and all that means nobody gives a fuck about accountability. An infusion of cash would help, but that cash always seems to go to the wealthy districts who don't need the extra cash. It's like society wants anybody in the city to die off, to be replaced by "suberbia".

All schools within a state should get equal funding per child. The fact that public schools in white subrubia get more funding is unfair and unjust.

you want to do is ditch the current problem; a nice easy midless solution, the results of which will ultimately lead to more problems down the road.

Wrong. Try not to assume shit about me next time.

[LWolf]

35. Are you aware that

"accountability" is now a neocon buzzword for demonizing teachers on the march to abolishing public ed?

As a teacher, I don't have a problem with being accountable. But...accountable for what? For giving my students 100% of the time, energy, skill, and resources I have to give? I do that. As a matter of fact, as my family would tell you, I give way too much time, $$$, and care above and beyond the job I'm paid to do. Like all teachers, I do my best to make up deficits out of my pocket and my life. I spend plenty of time and energy worrying about, and looking for solutions for, and addressing, every problem I see individuals in my class experiencing.

But...to hold me accountable for student progress/performance; hold on. I can continuously participate in professional development and keep my credential up to date. I can give the opportunity to learn. I can support every effort. But I can't force someone to learn. I can't undo years of neglect or abuse. I can't make up for many of the things that leave kids behind. I'm not the only factor here. And currently, the demand is to hold me accountable for the whole enchilada; regardless of any other factors.

Here's a thread on school accountability:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=12240

[Blue_Chill]

41. dupe

blah

[Blue_Chill]

42. Buzzwords are of no interest to me

Accountability is lacking in schools. While I do not doubt that you work hard some teachers do not.

My goverment teacher wanted to fail me in highschool after two quarters. I never did my homework which was worth all the points in his moronic class, I complained to my counselor and my case was reviewed. They noticed that I averaged a 97% on all tests, papers, and projects. I was moved and I passed goverment with ease.

That bastard is still there. A person that could give a damn about his students learning or succeeding. A person that wanted to fail me with only 2 of 5 final grades included.

[LWolf]

66. There are plenty of flaws in public ed that need to be addressed.

Having attended public ed schools, sent my children through them, and worked in them for 20 years, I could write you a couple of novels. If we ever get rid of the current crop of legislation destroying us in the name of accountability, we might be able to address some of them.

The point is that the term "accountability" doesn't refer to fixing those problems. It refers to a neocon agenda.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. it is not schools that need to be fixed , but society

we give kids too much stuff, not enough love and pitifully low expectations. We allow stupid parents to have way too much to say about how the schools are run. We don't pay teachers enough, and give them too little power. Schools are TOO BIG and many kids are lost in the shuffle.

Show me a school that is failing and I will show you a poor community with no resources to make improvements.

Show me a voucher school or charter school or religious school and I will show you a school that is not only not living up to the same standards as public schools, but is cherry picking students and teaching to the test so that their numbers look better.

Show me a Privatized school system and I will show you one where the tax payers are still footing the bill and private business is cutting corners to make a profit. You think kids are uneducated now? Let schools become privatized and only kids with money will be educated. We will have a whole generation of donkey morons before we figure out what a mistake it all was.

You want better schools? Find a better way to fund them and stop the "no child left behind" program. Stanards are fine, stop the standards testing being used as a way to judge schools and take them over. It is all a plot to get rid of public education.

[Blue_Chill]

64. I agree in that I don't think vouchers are the answer

My point was simpley that if we are going to combat vouchers we can't support the status quo. We must bring something to the table as well.

[fedupwithbush]

2. SoCalDem was kind

and welcomed me to this board on one of my first posts on this very issue.

I live in a semi-rural area. We have very few private schools. The fee's vary. However, the idea that a voucher would pay the full tab for private school is a lie perpetuated by people who want vouchers. Vouchers will only help the upper middle class or rich. The poor and lower middle class could still not afford to send their children to a private school even if they wanted to. Vouchers will only make the divide between have and have-nots worse. Anyone who thinks different should be put in a dump house, gave $15000 a year as income, have 2 children to support and then let's see them come up with $3000 to $9000 dollars after vouchers to put the kiddies in private school. It's ludicrous and totally insane that anyone thinks vouchers will improve our school system.

[GOPFighter]

11. Well said!

(er, well written!)

[Dagaz]

3. Question

Do inner city kids deserve the same education as suburbanites? A lot of inner city parents seem to think so.

[sandnsea]

5. Of course they do

What do vouchers have to do with quality public schools?

[Dagaz]

8. Quality Public schools doen't exist in the cities

I've been watching Jerry Brown in Oakland expand the Charter school system. The public schools are gang infested and not at all conducive to learning. With private schools they can kick out the disruptors.

[wuushew]

13. And where do these disruptive youths get their education? Prison?

The mandate of public education is to educate everyone. Look at the failure of shrubs no child left behind program. Testing for the purpose of encouraging dropouts = wrong.

[Dagaz]

15. That's a tough one

But it's not fair to the kids who want to learn to be involved with gang members. I's rather work on the easy problem first, and that is the majority of the inner city kids who are good and want to succeed. Perhaps the rest can be assigned to a reform school after they are kicked out of the regular schools.

[wuushew]

19. Perhaps failure in school should mean automatic register for the draft?

Put those gang skills to good use in downtown Baghdad in the ultimate showdown Bloods vs. Baaths.


Seriously though you raise some good points.

[sandnsea]

24. Reform school vouchers

Most cities have schools for kids who have been kicked out of regular school. So maybe the problem is there needs to be better funding of those schools, not a voucher program to send kids to schools that don't exist. There are not enough private schools for all public school kids and there never will be enough money to do both adequately. Those kids you want to kick out of school are exactly the kids the teachers have been hollering about. Of course private schools can do better, they don't have to take EVERY kid. But there are laws that every kid has to be educated. Public education has to be fixed, too many kids are not getting the opportunity they deserve while we dink around with phony 'solutions'.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. How about sending the disruptive kids to

separate classrooms?

I'm also for school choice within the public system. Minneapolis has been doing some interesting things, such as setting up all kinds of alternatives, including even a Waldorf School. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want their kids to go to school with African and Southeast Asian immigrants, so there's been a lot of white flight.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Minnesota as a whole has free transfers among public school systems as long as the second school system has room. My older younger brother moved across district lines when his daughter was eight or nine, and she was allowed to stay in her old school till she finished fifth grade and entered middle school in the new district.

But vouchers are an idea that sounds good on paper. Period. All those fancy suburban private schools don't have room for all the inner city kids, don't particularly want them, and will raise their tuition to make sure that they stay out. The religious schools would take some of the kids, but they won't want the hard-to-teach ones.

As for the idea of brand new private schools springing up to accommodate the kids with vouchers, who would make sure that they weren't fraudulent, just mechanisms for getting public money into private pockets? There have been scandals connected with charter schools in some cities, where some con artist set up a "school" in some substandard buildings and let the kids run wild until the authorities caught on. Why wouldn't this happen with private schools?

Remember, parents have ultimate control already. They can vote out the school board. Yet the Republicans want them to believe that they're powerless.

By the way, that right-wing canard about teachers' unions protecting the incompetents? I can tell you that the unions are fussy for a reason: teachers are subject to tremendous political and personal pressure. They can be persecuted for their political beliefs or penalized because they didn't give little Johnny Bigshot straight A's.

[alfredo]

58. So public school is the punishment for bad behavior.

Do you think the vouchers would still be given if the public school system died?

Maybe the neo cons believe that educating all is too expensive or too socialistic. I wonder what Leo Strauss had to say about that?

[Isome]

To me that is the whole issue Frisco.

inner city kids deserve the same education as suburbanites

Instead of one school being able to construct a new pool, buy new computers, or revamp their science lab, the school with outdated text books, too few text books, no computers, or classes held in portables should be provided the funds necessary to address some of those deficiencies.

We're talking about our kids, be they teenagers or pre-pubescents, they shouldn't be penalized with an inferior education because their parents aren't as financially able as other parents. The rightwing mantra on wealth is that those who have it deserve more luxuries than those who don't. But, a quality education isn't a luxury, it's a necessity. Parity demands that it be available to all American school children through public education. We've seriously lost sight of our best interests as a nation if we buy into vouchers and assist in populating a permanent underclass, via the absence of education.

Look around at countries that don't provide free education to their children. An uneducated populace leads to an unbridgable gap between the haves and the have nots.

It makes one wonder if that is their ultimate goal.

[morningglory]

34. Pool aint got a dang thing to do with education.

All you need for a good education is a blackboard and a library and some paper and some textbooks, and a good teacher.

[Isome]

43. What is your point?

...

[DBoon]

4. And I would add

4. Vouchers are a "benefit" that can easily be cut at will in the future, suffering a death by "small cuts"

Same reason why housing vouchers are preferred to public housing. Once you build public housing, you are committed to it for decades. It is not easy to incrementally cut back, and eliminating with one single action would raise opposition.

You couldn't eliminate the public school system overnight - but you could replace it with vouchers, then slowly cut funding for vouchers.

See "how to boil a frog alive" for details.

[Frances]

6. The Republicans want

to kill real education for the poor and lower middle classes.

Just like Bush is cutting benefits for veterans even in a war, money for vouchers will be cut.

Why do the Republicans want an uneducated public? So the masses will be easier to control.

[HPLeft]

7. Vouchers aren't evil

We require everyone to pay taxes into the education system, then force people of spirit (my phrase, since my orientation is the spiritual left, not the religious right) to fork over an additional $5,000 plus a year per child if they want their kid to learn about the world is an environment that places cosmic values over materialistic ones. It seems to me that vouchers are an equitable way to return some percentage of those tax dollars to the people who should be making the choices about their children's education.

[Catch22Dem]

16. Ok

And what do you do when you have 3 kids and are awarded a voucher? How do you decide which of your children gets the good education? How do you explain it to the other 2 kids?

[xxqqqzme]

25. deciding to send your child 2 a private school

is a choice. I should not have 2 pay 4 your choice!

Both of my kids were home-schooled, thru 5th grade. We bought the books 'n supplies. It was our choice - get it?

When they re-entered the public school system, they were tested 4 placement. They both tested 'off the charts' in reading, geography, history and English. Their math scores were 'on grade' but that's because their Dad & I were not math whizzes.

[HPLeft]

45. This is a tax fairness issue

The taxpayer should have a choice on how their tax dollars are spent. You took responsibility for your children's education, and more power to you. But if you're paying taxes into the system, why shouldn't those taxes support any number of reasonable educational choices?

I'm not clear at all on how you are paying for someone else's choices. Most of my friends who are sending their kids to private schools are paying property taxes up the wazoo to support their local education system, and are anything but wealthy. They are paying into the system already - and they don't like the product being offered, and more importantly, the values being advanced.

[ulysses]

49. no, it's an education issue.

The taxpayer should have a choice on how their tax dollars are spent.

So vote in school board elections or even run for the board yourself. Otherwise, unless you're also demanding that we get to "voucher out" of stupid or poorly run Pentagon programs, give me a damned break.

[HPLeft]

51. That's not going to effect the values being taught

Some values are inappropriate for a public education system, but are highly appropriate for specialized private education systems. Since you are requiring every applicable taxpayer (depending on how education is funded in any given locality) to fund the education system, it would be nice to give them a real choice as where that money is spent.

As for your Pentagon comparison, I can't help you there. But I can promise you that if children grow up in an educational system that does a better job at teaching how people across the world think, and what motivates them intellectually and spiritually, you are much less likely to see those children later on support huge military expenditures in support of insane wars.

[ulysses]

52. huh?

Some values are inappropriate for a public education system, but are highly appropriate for specialized private education systems.

What does that even mean?

[HPLeft]

59. Ever hear of Separation of Church and State?

Listen, I know this is really hard to hear for those you who have completely bought into the freeze dried Democratic position on this issue, but the education system that "we" support produced this war.

We have kids are who getting into college who can't read, and absolutely can't think for themselves - and who routinely buy into the values that corporations, bureaucrats, and increasingly, conservative talk radio wants them to hold. They are so easy to brainwash, it's scary. Remember 70% of America supported the attack on Iraq. If we ever hope to fundamentally change this society, we're going to have to get children out of the unhealthy part of the educational system, and into educational environments that encourage them to think for themselves, value human life over possessions, and value creative self-expression over domination of others (be that 3rd world people or their natural resources). The current system does not appear to do that at all. The current system simply teaches them how to be better masters.

That said, anybody who wants to buy into that system should be free to do so. My point is only that if you pay into a pool, you should be to have some say as to where that money goes. As far as I'm concerned, that's a logical extension of Democratic principles.

[sandnsea]

26. Why?

The public school system is supported by tax dollars. Just like the police, fire dept, library, city pool, parks, etc. Should people get vouchers to buy their own swing set or hire their own security guard? There's one reason Republicans want vouchers, private schools will be corporate schools and it's a HUGE market. Neil Bush and Bill Bennett already have their feet in the door.

[SharonAnn]

38. Then, what about those of us who pay taxes and have no

children? Can we get a voucher for something? Like, maybe a cruise vacation?

And those of us who don't use the Interstate? Can we get vouchers for our taxes for that too? Maybe grocery vouchers would be nice.

And those of us who don't fly? Can we get vouchers for our taxes for that?

[HPLeft]

50. Be serious

If you can get a voucher (i.e., financial aid, like the NYS Tap Grants) to go to the college of your choice, why not elementary and high school? Why should higher education be treated differently? I don't see any difference in these situations - other than the fact that College Professors/Instructors don't belong to the UFT.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. no we don't force them to spend extra to send their kids to private school

that is their choice. But the falsehood here is that parents pay taxes to educated their kids. No, they pay taxes and all of us pay taxes to educate all kids. Parents never pay the cost of their children's ecucation alone. That is why old people and childless people pay too.

So if we have to return some tax money to the parents who "pay double", why are we taxing people without kids? Why should they have to pay at all?

Public money for public education and everything else is pay as you go. That is the only equitable way.

[HPLeft]

48. Between you and me...

...the public education system is producing the good, decent people who mindlessly supported this war. It's doing a wonderful job.

[ulysses]

53. People bought into the war

because they went to public schools?

:silly:

[HPLeft]

60. People bought into the war

...because they don't know how to think. This system is failing to teach people how to think critically.

[Don_G]

12. It's Also Uncontrolled Privitazation

Just another source of income for the Pukes at the taxpayer's expense. Already, I believe there has been at least 4 cases of voucher fraud in Florida where Jebbie-Boy has established a school voucher program.

[marshmellow]

14. Let me say this about that!

The voucher plan is the sleaziest attempt to get minority voters on a single issue that will weaken the teachers union in the process.

The republicans have tried all kind of campaigns to garner the black and hispanic vote and finally have turned to a program that squeezes the quality out of public schools on purpose.

Trapped in a lousy school, you only have one option, vote republican so you can get the voucher you need to pay for private school.

[Nicholas_J]

20. Not just repukes, but

A large number of both hispanic and black democraticvoters suppotr school vouchers.

[Isome]

23. No they don't.

That's the puppet media and their puppet masters selling you an illusion. Most Black people know that de-funding public schools will have disastrous effects on their children.

[Isome]

68. The truth vs. the illusion they've shown you:

On the evening of September 9, House GOP leadership staged a surprise vote on H.R. 2765. Forty miles away, the Congressional Black Caucus was co-sponsoring with Fox TV a Democratic presidential candidates debate. Despite furious efforts by DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton and House Democratic leadership, the voucher bill passed by one vote.

...The $10 million DC voucher program will only “benefit” 1,300 students, but that is not the point. Polls show that the people of DC overwhelmingly oppose vouchers (85 percent, among Black residents), as does a majority of the school board and city council but, that is not the point, either. With tens of millions in public and private dollars at their disposal and the endorsement of the “liberal” Washington Post (liberal in the same sense as Feinstein), the Right is determined to create its private school showcase in the nation’s capital in order to soften opposition in the rest of the country.

.::link::.

There's a saying from my youth in the early 80's, and apropos to your assertion that Blacks favor vouchers, I have to use it: don't believe the hype!

[Robin Hood]

21. The real reason is segregation.

If public schools are disbanded. The racist right will have a much easier time selling their racist/segregationist propaganda.

[Isome]

27. That appears to be the core of the movement...

Those people who fear their children being around non-white children. Though, as usual, it's denied, denied, denied, the language used to describe public schools and especially schools within big city limits, is telling and all too familiar. The rest of the movement comprises the usual suspects: intellectually-lazy followers, opportunists and self-haters.

[DrBlix]

22. $$$$$ Plain and simple

They're in it for the money nothing more nothing less. They've been working on discrediting public education for years, they care nothing about the children whatsoever. For some reason many people equate private schools as being superior to public education, while this may be true in some high priced preppy schools, for the most part they are inferior with no accountability.
.
Many students that were placed in private schools by their parents and then reentered the public system were far behind and had to play a years catch up.
.
Their parents were sold a bill of good with glowing reports showing them to be ahead of the curve, which wasn't true.
.
Hey it's a business and they're in it for the money honey. Adding a middle man that looks at nothing more than the bottom line $$$ and that isn't how much better students do but how much profit they can squeeze out of the system.
.
In the meantime the majority of children are "left behind".
.
Just look what the middle man has done to health care......and you get a bleek picture of the future of American children.......and the education system........any questions?

[quaker bill]

28. Public Education

A free, universal, high quality public education should be a basic right provided everyone.

It should not depend on the neighborhood you live in or the state you live in. Your race, gender, religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation or disability should not be a factor.

Vouchers are simply a way to mask white flight from public schools in a socially acceptable rubric. Charter schools, "competition in the education marketplace", and all of the rest of this bogus crap is tinkering around the edges of the real problem. They serve as cover for the abdication of the responsibility to govern by republicans. To their minds this program has the added benefit of allowing corporate graft and corruption into this large pot of tax payers money. The third added benefit to their minds is that private school teachers are largely non-union

There are copious stories of little Enrons all over the place running bad schools on the public dole. The Fla. Inspector General's office is looking into where this money is going. Why? Because the lack of accountability and standards, they simply have no clue, so some body has to start looking.

Here is the answer. Spend more money on public education, federal money. It is the answer adopted by most countries doing education more successfully than we are.

Don't succomb to the "we can't afford it" BS either. First, we can't afford not to do it. Second, a small piece of the defense budget could pay for it.

Don't give me the republican " you don't solve problems by throwing money at them" BS either. Or the "that works elsewhere but we are different" crud. Make a list of the states in order of academic performance, then make another list by per-student spending on education. Note, that they will almost exactly match.

If the money you spend on the education process had nothing to do with the performance of the students, statistically this observed result would be about as probable than getting struck by lightning - twice or perhaps winning the lotto.

[wuushew]

30. If and when this happens could not these schools be sued over civil rights

In a manner where either the original school district or the replacemt voucher school failed to provide a diverse learning environment?

It would be the same argument as Brown vs. the Board of Education all over again. It would not matter if the discrimation was intentional or economically caused, the law would force integrated school bodies.

[SharonAnn]

39. Thurgood marshall was on the Supreme Court then, wasn't he?

And wasn't the Chief Justice more liberal than was expected?

Don't think we have either of those cases today.

[morningglory]

33. Moreover, the reason repugs do not support education is

because they want us ignorant, and unable to think rationally.

[jburton]

36. They are investing in the future

Seperate haves/have nots even more. No more OK schools, just exceptional schools (which vouchers only cover a tiny part of tuition) for those that can afford it and shit-holes for those who can't.

Less education correlates with increased crime later in life.

Add in mandatory sentencing.

Viola! More and more need for privatized prisons in the future.

It's all about the $ and power.

[ulysses]

46. an educated public is the basis of a democracy.

No universal education, no democracy.

[auburnlib]

62. What?

Democracy is 2 KKK members and a black man deciding who should die. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. America is a Republic.

[ulysses]

69. not surprised you've been tombstoned

If you're still lurking, though, remember that a republic is a representative democracy.

:7

[Q]

54. Article: Some of Bush's largest donors stand to profit..."

Some of Bush's largest donors stand to profit from privatizing public education.
by Michael Scherer March 5, 2001

During the presidential campaign, a reporter asked George W. Bush whether he supports the growing movement to privatize public education. Across the country, for-profit companies have opened "charter schools" to compete with public classrooms, saying they can save taxpayers money and improve student performance. But Bush dodged the question, implying that Texas is not privatizing education. "In my state," he said, "charter schools are public schools."

What Bush neglected to mention is that many charter schools in Texas, while still a part of the public education system, are run by for-profit companies. And many of the biggest shareholders of those firms invested heavily in Bush, who pledged to provide $3 billion in federal loans for new charter schools and to offer subsidies for students to attend private schools. Just as brokers stand to benefit from privatizing Social Security, some of Bush's largest donors would profit from turning education over to the marketplace.

Two of the largest backers of Edison Schools, the nation's largest private manager of public schools, contributed heavily to the Republicans. John Childs (No. 17), a Boston financier, gave $670,000, and Donald Fisher (No. 184), chairman of the Gap, gave $260,800, all but $62,800 to the GOP. Investors in Advantage Schools, one of Edison's chief competitors, also backed the GOP. John Hennessy (No. 362), whose Credit Suisse First Boston has pumped $19 million into Advantage, took a lead fundraising role for Bush and contributed $164,000 of his own money to the Republicans. John Doerr (No. 55, $477,500) and Kevin Compton of the Silicon Valley venture firm Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers, which has invested in Advantage, also ventured into politics.

What advocate of school privatization made $11 million for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld?

In addition, the GOP received large contributions from several of the nation's leading advocates for school vouchers, which provide public funds to students attending private schools. Richard DeVos (No. 12), the founder of Amway, put up $10 million of his own money for a failed voucher initiative in Michigan last year. He also gave $764,500 to Republican campaigns. David Brennan (No. 389), an industrialist who helped launch a voucher plan declared unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court and who opened a for-profit charter school company called White Hat Management, contributed $155,500. President Bush will also need public support to turn education over to for-profit companies -- and some of his largest donors have been working to improve the industry's image. Wal-Mart heir John Walton (No. 396, $153,250) has spent millions promoting voucher initiatives, and buyout specialist Theodore Forstmann (No. 210, $251,000), who shares ownership of a higher education for-profit called Capella Education, has financed an advertising campaign to promote privatization. "What I'm talking about is simply making an effort to educate the American people," Forstmann told reporters. "Let's see if we can start a movement."

- Sorry...lost my link to this article. But I think it presents a good argument about the motivation of the Bush* admin. to privatize education...and everything else they can get their hands on before the people kick them out.

 

[auburnlib]

55. I disagree

I like school vouchers because it is a way for kids with high potential and low incomes or means of paying for school to get a quality education. I also disagree with the idea of public schools. Public schools are institutions of state indoctrination and further more, I've never seen the "Public School" clause in the Constitution. If all schools were private, the price of tuition would fall across the board and there would be nonreligious private schools. As for government spending, more money isn't the answer. In Birmingham, AL for example, per-student spending is over $9000 and the superintendent makes over $100,000 a year. Compare that to Idaho where per-student spending is considerably less (I don't have the figure with me right now but it is less that $9000). The answer isn't always more money but more accountability.

[wuushew]

56. Rubish

I have a theory about those users who do not have their profile viewable. That theory is their avatar will shortly be a well shaped slab of marble. Even Thomas Jefferson recognized the importance of compulsory public education. Unitl you can assure me that everyone has minimum level of education based on personal merit and not wealth your position holds no water, especially in this era of cheap labor conservatives.

[auburnlib]

57. what is your theory?

[wuushew]

65. Okay lets go through the list

If a private school is truly a replacement for a public school then the amount of the voucher must fully cover the cost of eduction for that school. This is the socialistic element of public education, that gathering children in one area more or less costs a given fixed amount per child(excluding special needs). If private education was the norm those who have additional money beyond that amount of the voucher would seek increasingly greater and more elite institutions for their children. This is solely a result of the free market nature of the institution and I fear would go a long way to re-segregregate our schools further. Like it or not a valuable component of public education is social diversity and introducing wealth/class elements into it mearly builds walls.

Secondly it is common conservative mantra that EVERYTHING can be done in a free market better than can be done in a regulated or government controlled manner. This is simply not true. Look around. Do you think the utility industry is operating better under deregulation, or that our troops in Iraq are doing any better now that the logistics are run by private companies? Education like public works and engineering products is something that relies on planning, oversight and public accountability. I believe situations where free market solutions prevail are ones such as in selling products where the unknowns of market demand and fickle consummers are balanced by large numbers of competitors reacting to chaotic and rapidly changing conditions. This is not what the public desires in the realm of education. A neighborhood school that fails will not be instantly or easily replaced overnight if it goes under, there is infrastructure to build, staff to higher and other things that cannot be done on the schedule demanded in education. Teaching is both a science and a profession, the goals are to provide a minimum agreed level of education to community and describe the costs by which the administrators feel this can best be accomplished. There is no profit motive. And when you say the large number of private schools will drive down costs how is this better than the socialistic price of public which IS cost, the same situation you would have under perfect and ultimately untenable competition?

Some private schools are religious in nature, now if it was the policy of the government to fund these schools especially if they were the prefered form of education that would amount to government endorsement of religion. I know you could argue with me that many different types of schools could be built in an area to serve the needs of the students. This is not realistic, however as most likely a large or successful school say a catholic private school would be the only practical choice in an area not canvased by a myriad of private school choices.

Finally public schools try to treat teachers with respect and afford them the union protection that they deserve. It is a myth that teachers are overpaid. Maxing out your salary only comes after many years of dedicated service. I seriously doubt that employee benefits in a completely free market arena would be better than those in the public sector. Labor would have no advantage since the number of teachers is more or less decided by the population of students in a given area.

[ComerPerro]

63. But school vouchers don't adderss the problem

So what are you going to do, give everyone who needs one a voucher and then they can go to public schools?

Nice idea, but then there will be new private schools opened which cost too much for any kind of voucher program, and the very rich will send their kids there.

The reason republicans underfund public schools is because they do not want everyone to have access to education.

BTW, $100 thosand is not that much for a superintendant in an area such as Birmgingham. Also, $9000 per student does not necessicarily mean that each student has $9000 allocated for them. It is an average, and reflects every cost, such as maintenance and salary.

[Isome]

67. paying for school to get a quality education

If their parents are poor enough to be awarded a voucher, where will they get the money to pay for tuition? To my knowledge, private school tuition is considered cheap at $5k per year. How many $5k per year quality private schools are there and how many students can they accomodate? Where will the children go who are not accepted into private school, or whose parents cannot obtain tuition fees?

What about children in long-term foster care or wards of the state; which schools do they attend, public schools? If they do, how will the school have improved if additional funding and implementing greater accountability have been brushed aside in favor of awarding the vouchers? If they don't, will their foster parents or guardians be awarded a voucher, or will the state pick up the tab for the full cost of tuition? What if the adults in their lives cannot, or will not pay, what recourse is there for educating the child?

Can you explain why money is excluded only from the solutions to the issues of poverty and public education? If you need to make home improvements, you have to spend money. If you want new planes or bombs for the military, you have to spend money. If roads need repaired or regular maintenance, you have to spend money.

If you want to improve schools, you & yours say money isn't the answer, accountability is. Accountability is a cinch. Review expenditures, note wasteful spending, and revise policy accordingly. Get rid of the overpaid and the inept within the ranks of the schools' administrations and hire new ones. Done! Well, money would have to be spent on auditing the books, but no one was unjustly enriched, so that part is fini. But, how does that fix the schools (the physical structure and tangible learning tools, like books or lab equipment) that were victimized by wasteful administrators who misspent money? That takes money, moolah, cheddah, benjamins, long green, wampum.

What do you do, what do you do?

[Liberal Veteran]

61. The simple fact is that most countries do public schools...

...and they do it damn well. There is nothing unique about America that justifies vouchers. For most, they want vouchers as a ploy to send their kids to private religious or segregated institutions, pure and simple. No matter how you want to dress it up, the whole purpose of vouchers is nothing more than a plan to decimate public schools.

And it's bullshit to say that our schools are that bad. Yes there are bad schools but the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of students are adequately prepared from high school to go to college or trade school or the military if they prefer. Is there room for improvement? Probably. A good portion of that improvement could be made by holding PARENTS accountable for their children's education. I have seen far too many parents who just give over the responsibility for their child's education to the schools and expect the school to do everything from teaching basic academics to discipline to ethics and values.