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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 07:35 PM
Original message
Memos vs Minutes
FRAMING is the issue. We discussed this ad infinitum before last year's "election." I'm jes' SO proud of myself. For the FIRST TIME in all my years on DU, I HAVE A SIG LINE! :bounce: Click, POOF! Dey it is! Now that wasn't at all difficult, was it? :blush:

What IS difficult is communicating the subtlety of LANGUAGE. I've heard it said that 90% of language is NON-VERBAL. Being GFL (German <as> FIFTH language) I could write a damn dissertation, had I the energy. :SIGH: Our cyber communication ist behindert due to the lack of non-verbal cues, so our VERBAL CUES need to hit the mark.

Memo, short for memorandum, Merriam-Webster:

1. an informal record; also: a written reminder
2. an informal note of a transaction or proposed instrument
3. an informal diplomatic communication that contains directive, advisory or INFORMATIVE matter

Minutes: THE OFFICIAL RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF A MEETING.

Form vs CONTENT (Yo *dauphin still be dodgin' dat 30 year old bullet)

Let US correct our linguistic error and CHANGE our URLs to reflect our FOCUS. We are NOT interested in discussing the merits of memos, THE MINUTES OF THE MEETING are the issue. See my sig line. The correct page shows up. Every Knight of Columbus, Soror, Elk, Mary Kay Rep, former Brownie or Cub Scout ever subjected to Robert's Rules of Order KNOWS what the MINUTES of the meeting cover. WHO.SAID.WHAT.WHEN.

Wanna reach folks? Speak to them in a language they understand.

Fuck the "memo." Let's discuss what is contained in the MINUTES of the meeting.











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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, A Lot Of DU'ers Just Don't Get That It's MINUTES & Not A Memo
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, LET'S INFORM THEM!!!
Prosit! :toast:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree.
I actually mentioned that to Landay, because yesterday, someone here brought up that exact point. He recognized the problem.

Minutes of the meeting. Minutes of the meeting. Minutes of the meeting.

Dead on.
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firefox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. That changes everything, Karenina
I will do my part to see that people understand that it is minutes of the meeting we are discussing.

I have bookmarked this in my browser and will use it in bringing people to a proper understanding of the Downing Street Minutes.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Errraaa...
THANX! (i think... :hide:)
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent, Karenina!
Thank you for the correction. Henceforth, I will always refer to them as the Downing Street Minutes. Or Blair Meeting Minutes.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. PS: Let's recommend this so it gets on the Greatest Page.
:toast: :patriot:
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yep yep yep
A memo suggests opinion...minutes are factual. Huge difference. I've been pointing this out to people too. :D
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. Bumping for crucial action.
.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thanx, Blm!
:kick:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. important distinction
I'm sure they'd prefer people thought it was nothing but a few notes scrawled on a 'post-it'.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you for that reminder. I just amended my letter...
Dear Senator Nelson:

The American media may be too intimidated to openly challenge the Bush administration regarding the “Downing Street” documents—containing meeting minutes transcribed during the British Prime Minister's meeting on July 23, 2002, a full eight months prior to the invasion of Iraq on March 20, 2003—but the American legislature has a constitutional obligation to investigate. These documents demonstrate President Bush’s prior knowledge and state of mind when he broke the law in fulfilling his legal obligation to Congress.

I am disturbed by the media silence regarding this issue, particularly the claim by producers and editors that the documents do not constitute a primary source. Their motivation for asserting this false claim is suspect as they know full well a primary source reflects the individual viewpoint of a participant or observer. Examples include: diaries, journals, speeches, interviews, letters, memos, manuscripts, minutes and other papers in which individuals describe events in which they were participants or observers.

More importantly, the contents of the documents have already been corroborated by key individuals such as Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke, Joseph Wilson, etc... We are not being presented with an opinion piece, but a recounting of a meeting. The authenticity has been verified as a report from a high-ranking source to the highest levels of the British government.

As required by H.R.Res. 114, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, the administration was required to report to Congress that diplomatic options had been exhausted before or within 48 hours after military action had started.

Within 48 hours after the attack on Iraq, President Bush supposedly informed Congress in writing that Iraq posed a serious and imminent threat to national security; obviously, given the recent information revealed in the “Downing Street” documents, President Bush knew that was not true at the time. This is a clear violation of the False Statements Accountability Act of 1996, and would constitute a premeditated illegal act by our President.

Surely a legislative body with the courage to impeach a president for his semantic gymnastics before a federal grand jury can find it within themselves to investigate a president whose suspected illegal actions resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of our fellow human beings.

The United States Constitution

Article II Section. 4. The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Article I Section 2. Clause 5: The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Article I. Section 3. Clause 6: The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.



I am by no means a constitutional scholar, but I am a citizen with a vested interest in preserving American representative democracy. I interpret our founding document to mean that Congress has a duty to preserve that democracy by serving as a check and balance for the Executive branch. Surely the evidence suggesting President Bush and his administration engaged in illegal and unjust warfare constitutes valid suspicion of treason and other high crimes warranting a full and public investigation. I urge you to work with your colleagues in Congress to restore integrity and dignity to the American government.

Regards,

--------------

I am attaching Bush's March 21, 2003 letter to congress as an enclosure. The first two paragraphs contain the key information.

On March 18, 2003, I made available to you, consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), my determination that further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq, nor lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

I have reluctantly concluded, along with other coalition leaders, that only the use of armed force will accomplish these objectives and restore international peace and security in the area. I have also determined that the use of armed force against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organiza-tions, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001. United States objectives also support a transition to democracy in Iraq, as contemplated by the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338)......


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You GOOO, PP!!
:woohoo: :toast: :woohoo:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. That is an absolutely SUPERB letter - may I use parts of it in mine?
Edited on Wed Jun-01-05 10:16 AM by Nothing Without Hope
edited to add: recommended - we all need to realize this point clearly and include it in our LTTEs and posts
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Absolutely!
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thanks! It's golden. n/t
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Not just of a meeting but an "Official Government Meeting"
This was a Meeting between two Official Governments and Minutes were recorded of that meeting. The Government of Great Brittain does not deny the accuracy of the minutes.
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Im with Rosey Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. This very issue has come up
in discussions elsewhere. BradBlog is now Memo/Minutes. Lots of other people are trying to change from memo to the more accurate minutes. Perhaps we can use this to our benefit with the likes of Brian Lamb @ C-SPAN, example: We understand your reluctance to recognize MEMOS, but since MINUTES are a matter of record, perhaps this lends more credibility to some investigation into the evidence of the DOWNING STREET MINUTES.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. Why should they?
These are MINUTES. "The Secretary will now read the minutes.":boring:
Think 4-H Club, Scouts, K of C, Greeks, local politics...
Americans KNOW what MINUTES are. It's a linguistic reference.
If we sleep through this one, we're fucking dead. :scared:

PLEASE PAY ATTENTION KIDLINKS. I know some may find your ol' Tante incomprehensible at times, but she be in intimate contact with the generation currently checking out of this realm and THIS is what they be sayin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3762282

WAKE UP EVERY JENKY DIPSHIT YOU CAN.

Bitte. :hug:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. Absofuckinglutely! Straight from the horses mouth, no third party, much
more credibility! Mucho major...
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. Too late, imo.
You start talking about "minutes" now and anyone who's heard of the "memo" could think you're talking about something new. Then you have to explain the distinction, etc. That's wasted energy at this point. Energy that could be used to barrage the MSM reminding them to actually report and do their damned job.

Memo, or minutes, proof that bush lied is proof that bush lied.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Language matters
and the distinction is CRITICAL. If the use of the word minutes confuses someone, the explanation is as simple as, "The memo contains a transcript of the MINUTES OF THE MEETING!" :think:
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. why not "the memo on the minutes"
sounds like a song or a book
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. nope, it's an OPPORTUNITY to talk about it some more
which hasn't happened in this country much at all so NO-ONE really KNOWS but like i said it's an OPPORTUNITY to talk about it and explain the GRAVITY of the document.

nothing wrong wit dat ;->

words are crucial ask any lawyer.

ENEMY COMBATANTS vs ILLEGAL COMBATANTS, pre-emptive war vs PREVENTIVE war

the difference between the phrases above are critical since one is LEGAL and the other is ILLEGAL.

peace
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Yuppers!
:loveya:
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. well alrighty then, minutes it is and a big kick and nominate.
thanks for the heads up (rove definitely understands the enormity in subtleties of words and uses those subtleties to machiavellian ends) we need to use them to enlighten.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
21. You are correct sir!
We must always refer to the "Downing Street Minutes".
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
23. Good point
I'm going with the "UK Minutes" cuz it's short.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Minutes.
Minutes of a meeting. OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING. You say tomayto and I say tomahto but we say MINUTES! :D
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING
How's this Karenina?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. AUSGEZEICHNET!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Vielen Dank sehr sehr viel!!!!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
28. Good point Karenina.
I just downloaded information from your signature link about the "minutes" before I saw your post.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Girlfriend, these *folk and their lackeys
be caught RED-HANDED and we're collectively so s-l-o-w we have to discuss the differences between memos and minutes... :argh::banghead:

G-O-D-D-E-S-S-H-E-L-P-U-S!!!!!

Sorry for the outburst, I'm better now. ;-)
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. Changed from "Memo" to "Minutes" & Thanks for the advise!
:hi:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
33. Related links that support the minutes
Karenina, remember these?

Bush Cabal Plotted War on Iraq Years Ago by Sara Flounders
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO404B.html

Bush and Blair Made Secret Pact for Iraq War
Decision came nine days after 9/11/Ex-ambassador reveals discussion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1185438,00.html

The Architects of Bush's War
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0405-02.htm
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