Ever heard of the Gnostics?

[MojoXN]

They were an offshoot of the Essenes, the breakaway sect that decided to deliberately repudiate the Pharisees and Saducees. Think of them as an ancient Jewish third party. There is considerable evidence to indicate that Jesus himself was an Essene. The Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament was actually Satan, and that Jesus came to Earth as an emissary of the true God to try and save the Jews, as well as everyone else from Satan's influence. Now, I don't consider myself a Christian, per se, but the more that I think about this basic tenet of Gnosticism, the more sense it makes.

The Old Testament does little save promoting an innate fear of God's wrath. Now, I always got a little confused, "If God is infinite love, why the hell is the Old Testament God always smiting, or otherwise making His people's lives miserable?" Also, I have often wondered, "Why is it that only the Old Testament God created an iron law that fostered contempt and hatred for one's fellow man. Y'know, the "God hates Fags" part of Leviticus, the "Eye for an Eye" doctrine, and so forth. Not exactly promoting tolerance, compassion, and understanding by example, now is He? So, I ask myself, "Why were the teachings of Jesus so radically different than those of the Old Testament?" All this business about turning the other cheek, and unconditional love for thy fellow man is anathema to the doctrine of the Old Testament.

In a different, more politically relevant context, ask yourself this, "When was the last time that you heard a Righty, particularly a religious-Righty, quote ANYTHING from the NEW Testament?" I'm sure that examples abound, but their Biblical quotation ratio seems heavily biased toward the Old Testament. If one were to put stock in the Gnostic theory that the Old Testament God was actually not God, it would go a long way toward explaining why it is that every time the Right bases their beliefs and policies on Old Testament ahem, "wisdom", people suffer as a result. Because personally, I can't see the One True God approving of many of the things that they do in His name.

MojoXN

[Deep13]

1. yes

Constantine did his best to wipe them out. Still, scraps survive. I have never heard the OT God is Satan theory. Where can I read about that?

[gordianot]

12. Read the Nag Hamadi texts, Gnosticism survived by a fluke.

This drives the Synoptic, post Constantine - Council of Nicea, Christians up a wall (those few who truly can read).


see link: http://www.gnosis.org/welcome.html

[Deep13]

16. I have that.

It is taking awhile to digest it. Fundies insist the Gnostic gospels are fakes, but have no archeological evidence to prove it. One guy I know refuses to believe that John and Matthew of the NT were not the same guys who were among the disciples. Matthew was written around AD70 and John around AD100.

[havocmom]

2. Re: Old Testament/New Testament and the far right

The wingers are all about smiting. And being the boss of everyone. Dominion, and being allowed to beat the wife/kids, so long as the stick used is not bigger around than their thumb.

Always wondered if that was the origin of the phrase 'under my thumb'.

[bryant69]

3. I think Gnostic is a more generalized term

While I have read some of the Gnostic Texts which posit God as Satan (there's one that mocks all the Old Testement Prophets for having been foolish enough to serve an evil God, that I recall). That said, I think Gnostic refers to more than that specific group that believed that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ClintonTyree]

4. There's a line of thought...

that Jesus spent his "lost years" with the Essenes, adopting their teachings and their apocalyptic version of life on earth. Of course, many ancient religions had an apocalyptic vision.
It seems that god had an epiphany between the old and new testament and became a "kinder, gentler" god. Of course, the fundies choose to believe only the mean, smiting god of the old testament. It fits their personalities.

[immoderate]

5. Have you ever heard of the doctrine....

(I forget what it's called) that says, that people just make all this shit up?:shrug:

--IMM

[myrna minx]

6. Here is an interesting course.

I received a sample CD from this lecture series which was very interesting. I haven't purchased it yet. I have far too many books to catch up on, but it seems quite interesting.

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp


Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battles over Authentication
(24 lectures, 30 minutes/lecture)
Course No. 6593

Taught by Bart D. Ehrman
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
M.Div., Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary
In the first centuries after Christ, there was no "official" New Testament. Instead, early Christians read and fervently followed a wide variety of Scriptures—many more than we have today.

Relying on these writings, Christians held beliefs that today would be considered bizarre. Some believed that there were two, 12, or as many as 30 gods. Some thought that a malicious deity, rather than the true God, created the world. Some maintained that Christ's death and resurrection had nothing to do with salvation while others insisted that Christ never really died at all.

What did these "other" Scriptures say? Do they exist today? How could such outlandish ideas ever be considered Christian? If such beliefs were once common, why do they no longer exist? These are just a few of the many provocative questions that arise from Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battles over Authentication.

The Struggle Within Christianity

"This is a highly educational trip into the confusion that often existed in the early church and how the church moved from there to the point of a consistent creed," writes Harold McFarland, editor of Midwest Book Review. Professor Bart D. Ehrman, who previously authored The Historical Jesus and The New Testament for The Teaching Company, returns to lend his expert guidance as you follow scholars' efforts to recover knowledge of early Christian groups that lost the struggle for converts, and simply disappeared.

This course focuses on the remarkable fact that many of the struggles of early Christians were not against pagans or other nonbelievers but against other Christians. Professor Ehrman will introduce you to these groups.

The Ebionites were Jewish Christians who followed Jewish laws but accepted Jesus as the Messiah without believing he was divine.

The Marcionites rejected Judaism completely to the extent that they believed that the God of the Old Testament and the God of Jesus were two separate Gods.

And the Gnostics believed that there was one true God but that there were also many other deities. In addition, they thought salvation came not from Christ's death and resurrection but from secret knowledge, or "gnosis," of who one really was, where one came from, and how one could return to the heavenly home.

Surprising "Other" Gospels, and a Remarkable Archaeological Find

The fascinating heart of this course is its exploration of the Scriptures that were read and considered authoritative by these Christian sects. Many now are either known or believed to be "pseudepigrapha"—forgeries written in the names of famous apostles.

Whatever their origins, these documents can be viewed as lost versions of the New Testament. They provide a fascinating opportunity to study little known and sometimes controversial Scriptures that might have become part of the Bible.

The Gnostic Gospel of Truth is one of the most powerful and moving expositions of the joy of salvation to survive from Christian antiquity. Ironically, its views are diametrically opposed to those that dominate Christian belief today.


more...

[MojoXN]

11. Good info, Myrna!

At the core of Gnosticism was the belief in Resurrection, but not as it is understood today by contemporary Christians. Rather, the Gnostic conception was more along the lines of what we would call reincarnation. They believed that at one point, we were all with God, and that at some point in time immemorial, we conciously rejected Him, and have been trying to get back to Him ever since. They also believed in a concept similar to karma, but witha few significant differences. First, unlike the reincarnation beliefs of Hindus, rebirth as a lower, non-human form was not possible. It was possible, however, to be reborn into a pain-filled existence as penance for having wronged others. The Gnostics thought that having conscious knowledge of this cycle would enable them to ultimately defeat it, and rejoin God. That's a bare minimum outline, I'll try to post some good links for those who are interested. Unfortunately, I don't have PDF's of my book collection, yet anyway.

MojoXN

[JNelson6563]

7. Check out the Gnostic gospels sometime

Interesting stuff.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html

[seabeyond]

8. very very good on many levels

you comment about right christians quoting from old testament. my kids went to a christian school. i continually asked the same from the people that participated in that school. why are we only doing the old testament.

whenever anyone around here starts quoting to me, i immediately go to old/new testament. and how old testament is being abused and is an abuser.

i also like your suggestiong old testament satan. satan is not scary to me, even in the theory of. it is only an opportunity to see what i dont want. like george bush. clearly has given my young boys a vision of how they dont want to live life.

twice i started reading bible withold testament. 12 and 17. both time i had to stop. i finally asked mom, why i could not read old testament. everything about it was contradictive of love, and contradicted how i felt god. it all seemed wrong. she told me to go to new testament. and that is where i have sat in christianity

religion is brought up by everyone in this area. i will go to country club today, and likely be asked what church i go to. and i will hear "good christian family" somewhere in conversation

i always clarify out loud that someone is talking in old testament.....and i just do not sit in the hate and the killing and violence of it.

[seabeyond]

9. another point. when they do talk jesus

it is always jesus being beat up by the jews, and sacrificing in pain and blood.

that is what they use......jesus for

not the bearer of lite

[Bridget Burke]

10. The Gnostics were more than offshoots of the Essenes.

Some overlapped with Judaism and/or Christianity. Others would be considered Pagans. (Idries Shah would say the Sufis are involved--but he said that about everything!) Among he myriad of Gnostic sites on the web, this list of lectures might give you an idea of the scope: http://gnosis.org/gnostsoc/gnostsocpast.htm

Gnostic influence on modern writers is mentioned. Tolkien? Perhaps. But Yeats & Graves were definitely in the sphere of influence. "King Jesus" by Robert Graves gives his own esoteric & poetic version of The Story--the Claudius novels were not his only good ones.

Check out the Manichees. This belief originated in Persia & converted many. In (very) brief, they taught that the Evil Lord was as strong as God & that much of creation was Evil. The Catholic Church fought the heresy, although some influence remained. Are things of the body to be hated? Is Satan as strong as God or just an annoying evil spirit? Unfortunately, some of the Protestant churches retained a Manichean strain--preaching contempt for things of the flesh.

There are many interesting matters to study. For their own value & to help understand the world today.

[MojoXN]

13. Wow!

Now here's your person, folks! It's nice that you know so much about the history of Gnosticism's literary influence. I had no idea! This is a subject that I have only dabbled with. I try to keep religion out of my life, by and large. Still, I've always felt that it's nice to know what others believe, or have believed. Makes you a more well-rounded person, or so I think.

MojoXN

[myrna minx]

14. Here is some information from the PBS series

From Jesus to Christ regarding the Gnostic Gospels. This is really interesting stuff.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

[MojoXN]

15. From the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas:

18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."

Sure sounds like an endorsement of reincarnation to me. It's interesting that a lot of the writer's, presumably Thomas, descriptions of Jesus' parables are similar to the "offcial" Gospels.

http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm
http://www.gnosis.org

[Auntie Bush]

19. Silvia Brown is a Gnostic and she believes in reincarnation.

"Sure sounds like an endorsement of reincarnation to me."

Sounds like it to me too.

However, you could also say that if we start at the beginning...you are nothing...so then you will end as nothing and if you are nothing...you can't die.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Gonstics is where we get the word Anarchy from

Anarchy is Anti Archon or Anti rulers of the world... anti domination.. Here is a KICKASS Gnostic site,

http://www.metahistory.org/

[MojoXN]

18. Nice one, undergroundpanther!

It certainly does have an eclectic take on the subject. I particularly like the integration of Gnosticism and other beliefs.

MojoXN

[undergroundpanther]

20. I find gnosticism

Is the root of alot of religions
Hermetic Egyptian religion has a strong gnostic component
as does Buddhism

If you look back you find it connects also ever read the book of two principals? It's hard to get but a damn good read.

Another author Walter wink Has a book about the powers and a paper called cracking the Gnostic code. He is a Christian.but he has good analysis on the archon mindset.

Sometimes I think the archon is the spirit that lives on Earth as rulers abusers, pedophiles and sociopaths rapists etc. Anyone looking to dominate, The rulers of the world types.

Even archon butt sucker Jesus was smart enough to say to Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world and to turn down the archons offer for all the kingdoms of the world if you would just bow down to the archon in the desert.

The bible is alot of warped Gnosticism,Edited by human archons at the council of Nicea into a brilliant piece of propaganda that has justified alot of crap abusive to stunt humanities gnosis,and held humanity in a very sick trance.All the monotheistic religions cannot answer the problem of evil .They try by saying evil is good or part of the good principles -plan. This is bullshit..

To me we live in a state like an oil and vinegar salad dressing.
As long as evil acts of archon possessed people keep shaking us up,the separation of powers can't occur because people can't see it.Just like they can't break out of the bible trance because they REFUSE to separate the evil out of it(like the book of Joshua) from the good parts like(the beatitudes)..Mixing good and evil spirit and saying it's all good (monotheism)makes people unable to see good from evil.

It makes them MORAL RELATIVISTS where in their warped minds abortion is a sin being gay is an abomination but a war killing babies and kids for profit or colonial ambitions ..or torture is OK.

Bush and the Dominionists the fundies they bow to the archon (the cancerous spirit that eats it's own host(oroborous) and the sociopath soul..that has no light in it.. and they are seeking to own the world and it shows in their fruits..

[MsTryska]

21. I like Gnostic Christianity best.

nt.

[undergroundpanther]

22. Gnostics fetal psych?

Begin the argument..here

http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/p244x263.htm

It gets to the meat on the Next page...

Every sacred tent, every temple, every church, every throne is believed to be at the very center of the universe and to be connected by an umbilical cosmic pillar leading upwards to the center of Heaven (Nurturant Placenta) and downwards to the Great Serpent of the Underworld (Poisonous Placenta).

The placenta has many guises, most either emphasizing its tree-like bran-ching, with the umbilicus as the trunk, or else its snake-like qualities, often symbolized as a many-headed snake or octopus (see Illustrations 1 and 2). Sometimes the umbilicus is represented separately (see Illustration 3), taking the form of a flagpole, connecting rope, or snake. These symbols repeat themselves with few variations in every primitive and archaic religion, in historical religions, and in past and contemporary political symbols, and unless one understands these basic fetal symbols there is simply no way to explain much of what happens in the world.