Conservatives and the "Fair Tax"

[Michael_UK]

Have any of you noticed how conservatives are talking up a flat tax, or abolishing income tax completely, and calling it the "Fair Tax".

http://www.fairtax.org/

This is one that we progressives have to get a grip on. Who is this "Fair tax" actually fair on. Like most conservative policies, it's good for the few, and bad for the majority.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Get rid of payroll tax and tax ASSETS. nt

[annabanana]

2. THAT's the ticket!

Or at least all kinds of income equally...

[asthmaticeog]

3. I could still be convinced that a federal consumption tax

would be a good replacement for the personal income tax, IF (and I stress ONLY if) groceries, clothing, utilities (electricity, water, gas) and durable goods below a certain price (houses under say 100k, vehicles under say 25k) were exempted, so as not to excessively burden people in the lower income strata on purchases of staple items.

This way, rich people who can game the system with tax shelters and other dodges will pay their share when they shop, the underground economy (profit from crime) will be brought into the tax base (drug dealers don't report their incomes, but they DO buy luxury vehicles), and there'll be some disincentive to overconsume.

Am I so horribly wrong on this?

[bunkerbuster1]

4. No! They're doing that? the BASTIDS!

sorry, but where ya been? They've been pulling this shit for ages now. "Conservatives" (yarite) HATE the progressive income tax, and HATE the idea that rich folks might have to pay at a higher rate than the proles.

They're all about making proles' income and consumption the sole source of revenue for their empire building, and of course plenty of dumbass Republican voters oblige them by sayin' "Yep, a simpler form of taxation, no matter how much it screws me, would be a mighty good thing!"

I was among a crowd (relatively captive audience, it was a company meeting) last year where one of these flat-earthers was stumping for a Senate seat, and this topic came up. A crowd member asked what the tax rate would actually be, and when the candidate gave the actual percentage, you could see a bunch of people doing little calculations in their heads... and they weren't all that pleased.

That's really all we have to do... remind folks that under the best, most rosy of scenarios, we're who have something under a quarter-mil in taxable income are gonna get scree-rewed. And that's assuming these theives, the ones who brought you the "Iraq occupation will pay for itself" and "The drug benefit will only cost 200 billion... no, 300 billion, um, more than that, but not much more, promise!", have got their calculations right.

Which they haven't, because they always lie.

[Gormy Cuss]

5. Whenever some calls for a fair tax

I calculate just how much my increase will be.
But then, when the best justification someone can muster is "fairness," I'm skeptical. I've heard people try to call sales taxes fair.

:spank:

[MemphisTiger]

6. On the surface it's not a terrible idea

but the problem comes in where you have to define income. Since most rich people don't get a traditional paycheck, it's hard to discern what needs to be taxed. We need to nail that down before we talk of changing an already good system. It kills me when these republicans which are supposed to be good with money talk of the complexities of the tax system like it's rocket science. If you don't get it, hire an accountant. You wouldn't try to build your own car if you weren't an engineer and/or mechanic.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. BTW, we already have a defacto FLAT TAX

if you crunch the numbers the rich pay about the same percent as the poor (they compensate for their higher rates with loopholes and capital gain rates).

[TheFarseer]

8. Has anyone ever considered a flat tax might be OK if

they had a standard deduction of $50,000 or so? and another $10,000 for each dependent or something? And if it taxed all income, not just workman's wages.

btw, I had always been a fierce opponent of the flat tax, I'm just playing devil's advocate with this.

[BlueEyedSon]

9. You are only considering flat tax because the progressive tax system

has been GUTTED.

Just a guess....

[Deep13]

10. A true flat tax is good.

That is if we eliminate cost of business deductions as well as deductions for children, mortgage interest, IRAs as others used mostly by the upper middle class. Also, if we eliminated corporate subsidies which are a negative taxes and require business to pay for the true costs of doing business. As an alternative to eliminated deductions for the cost of business, we should allow all employees to deduct the true costs of working: dry cleaning, gas or bus fare, work clothes, babysitters, Advil &c.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Lets assume the fed flat tax rate necessary for a balanced budget

is 35%.

Should a family of 4 living on 30k have to pay 10k while a family grossing $1M pays the same rate?

I DON'T THINK SO!

[Deep13]

12. Let's assume it is less because of the lack of corporate freebees.

If the folks at the top are paying their fair share, the entire rate will be lower. Further, let's assume that the cost of working is deductable like it is for businesses. That family will pay little. My personal view, and I know I am in the minority here, is that people should not be rewarded for creating more people that the world simply does not need. If this couple is just scraping by, they should not burden themselves with two children.

Oh yeah, capital gains and inheritences should be taxed as ordinary income.

[BlueEyedSon]

13. So, what's your rate? Now apply the "fairness" test for subsistence and

poverty level families.....

[ProfessorGAC]

14. First $70k Exempt. 30% Of All Income That

That's the revenue neutral point.

Now, i don't support a flat tax. The primary reason is that since conservatives have been WRONG about every economic principle, proposal and theory they've posited since the 1950's, there's no reason to think this pet project is any different. I don't believe in the law of average when it comes to finally being right about something. It is possible for them to ALWAYS be wrong about fiscal policy.
The Professor

[BlueEyedSon]

15. I agree with your cut-out, but then it's not *really* flat is it....?

[ProfessorGAC]

17. No. Like I Said, I Don't Believe. . .

. . .in a flat tax, but even Fair Tax and Steve Forbes have cut-outs. They have the wrong amount and the rates are always too low on the non-exempt portion. But, nobody i've seen has a proposal for all income, starting at zero at one rate. Every proposal i've seen, for many years, has a earning threshhold above which we pay taxes. Just trying to stay consistent with prior proposals.
The Professor

[UdoKier]

16. A progressive tax with no loopholes is the most "fair".

Flat tax proponents can really go fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned. They are all selfish, extremely dishonest and evil.

You hear me Steve Forbes, go fuck yourself, and all the rest of you POS rich fux, too!