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THE COUNTER-ATTACK when the Downing St. minutes thing explodes next week:

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Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:01 PM
Original message
THE COUNTER-ATTACK when the Downing St. minutes thing explodes next week:
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 04:15 PM by Brotherjohn
So Kerry will bring up the Downing St. minutes on the Senate floor Monday, and much press attention is promised (see numerous posts here earlier today).
(Yes, yes, I realize it may not 'explode'. But it IS building, and Kerry HAS said he will bring it up on the Senate floor Monday. Just being pro-active here.)

If this happens, the Right is likely to attack it in lock-step using the following talking points:
A) It's old news (ridiculous on it's face, and easily dismissed; if it's being talked about, it's not old news; and we're talking about WAR here)
B) "It's only one person's opinion... and a damned foreigner at that!

A suggested counter-attack, and context:

'Old news', huh? Just 'one person's opinion'? People, this document did not appear in a vacuum."

We already have had high-ranking officials from the Bush administration allege this SAME thing: they were determined to go to war and were 'fixing the facts and intelligence' to support war. Okay, you say, those were "disgruntled former employees" trying to sell books. But we're not just talking about some laid-off flunkies. We're talking about a full cabinet member and the head of counter-terrorism! In addition, unprecedented numbers of intelligence and military officials from all levels of government have alleged similar things."

"ADD TO THAT: We now KNOW that they were publicly making statements about the Iraqi threat that the CIA and others within our own intelligence community had privately warned them not to make. We KNOW they were stating things as unequivocal fact that were in fact open to great dispute, often by our own intelligence, and by inspectors on the ground in Iraq, at our request. We KNOW that they were stating things as unequivocal fact which we now know were not backed up by the available evidence at the time, and sometimes directly contradicted by it. Included in this are the two key points alleging the threat of a 'mushroom cloud': the alumnium tubes and the Niger uranium deal."

"We also now know that much of the information they presented to Congress to get the Iraq War Resolution passed was known to be doubtful at the time and subject to much more speculation than they let on. In other words, they misled Congress."

"NOW, we have official, undisputed, government documents, from the highest levels of government of our chief ally, detailing that all of these accusations are true."

"When does one began to say: 'Okay, maybe their critics were right'? 'Maybe they WERE bent on war and DID mislead everyone'? We should remember that every investigation conducted thus far has specifically avoided this question. But it is becoming clearer and clearer by the day that the Bush administration did indeed 'fix the facts and intelligence' to convince the American people and Congress that immediate war was necessary... a war which we now know, was in fact not necessary at all."
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. i believe kerry is psyched to bust some balls
what can their defense be?
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Their defense
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 04:07 PM by wryter2000
"Are you going to believe a traitor to the United States who faked his war wounds and looks French?" :sarcasm:
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cdb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Attack the messenger,
attack the source, blame the press, divert attention, orange alert, red alert, Zarqawi wounded, or captured... you know, the usual shit..
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firefox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The fascists will always try to shoot the messenger first n/t
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. watch out there is another shaivo or runaway bride on the horizon
even if they have to dig one up
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
62. So did they ditch the color coded alert levels?
Terra, terra, terra! We'll be going to red on Monday!
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cdb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. Faux News still broadcasts color alert levels
They have them in their crawl at the bottom of the screen...
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Damn straight email it to every dem in congress
or call at number 202 224 3121 and say just as much.

kicked and nominated.
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Chicago1 Donating Member (560 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent Counter Attack
Great Job!!! These are wonderful things to come back at them with.

Waiting for the IMPEACHMENT WHILE THE SCANDALS KEEP UNFOLDING
America's Work Stories
http://usaworkstories.blogspot.com
usaworkstories@aol.com
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1956 Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I sincerely hope,(please,please)
that everything goes well!!!
I hope the RW doesn't come out with ,"Oh, he's just trying to get back at Bush cuz he "lost""!!! ARGHH!!!
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. Careful not to get your expectations up too high.
Sorry to say it, but Kerry has a way of letting the air out of the balloon. Hope he doesn't this time, but it's best, I think, to wait and see how he plays it. Or to get on his tail and make sure he plays it for all its worth.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. pshaw
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I've been let down by politicians and public figures so many times
Haven't we all? Doesn't that come with the territory of being a Democrat, in particular?
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. that's the old democrat
we're not gonna take it any more
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I'll believe it when I see it.
But I do hope you're right. I really do. :toast:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. Tell ya what Burtabubala,
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 05:42 PM by Karenina
Were Kerry to DIRECT PUBLIC ATTENTION to Conyers' signature efforts ON MONDAY, just the TINIEST mention on mike and/or camera, THEN I'd believe it!

LOOKEE WHAT DA CHILLUNS DONE SHOWED TANTE HOW TO DO!!!!

DOWNING STREET MINUTES - OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING



HOT DAMN!!! :woohoo:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Them are my favorite lyrics
1. We're Not Gonna Take It

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND
THERE AIN'T NO WAY WE'LL LOSE IT
THIS IS OUR LIFE, THIS IS OUR SONG
WE'LL FIGHT THE POWERS THAT BE JUST
DON'T PICK OUR DESTINY 'CAUSE
YOU DON'T KNOW US, YOU DON'T BELONG
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

OH YOU'RE SO CONDESCENDING
YOUR GALL IS NEVER ENDING
WE DON'T WANT NOTHIN', NOT A THING FROM YOU
YOUR LIFE IS TRITE AND JADED
BORING AND CONFISCATED
IF THAT'S YOUR BEST, YOUR BEST WON'T DO

OH...
OH...
WE'RE RIGHT/YEAH
WE'RE FREE/YEAH
WE'LL FIGHT/YEAH
YOU'LL SEE/YEAH

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE
NO WAY!

OH...
OH...
WE'RE RIGHT/YEAH
WE'RE FREE/YEAH
WE'LL FIGHT/YEAH
YOU'LL SEE/YEAH

WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT, NO!
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

JUST YOU TRY AND MAKE US
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
COME ON
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
YOU'RE ALL WORTHLESS AND WEAK
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE
NOW DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY
wE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
A PLEDGE PIN
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH YOU ON YOUR UNIFORM
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE


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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Check his record again
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 04:37 PM by havocmom
He is a tough prosecutor and they fear that talent of his.

Google John Kerry + Iran Contra

From Salon: http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/07/22/kerry/print.html

<snip> In his first month as a senator, in January 1985, Kerry discovered the thread that would unravel the Iran-Contra scandal -- the creation of an illegal, clandestine foreign policy apparatus run out of the National Security Council by President Reagan's military aide, Oliver North, and directed ultimately by CIA director William Casey. Kerry had the training and instincts of a prosecutor and was informed by his Vietnam experience. As the first district attorney of Middlesex County (Boston) in Massachusetts, he had smashed the local Mafia. "A central part of my campaign had been the notion that I would bring to the Senate the experience of the Vietnam period, which cautioned me against the kind of illegal activities we were hearing about, and the things that were going on," Kerry explained later. "Literally, I did do an ad hoc investigation."

<snip> Kerry surrounded himself on his staff with tough, intelligent and independent-minded investigators, and he ordered them to follow the trail. In south Florida, they found men accused of drug running who were shipping guns to the Nicaraguan Contras and claiming to have been instructed to do so by the National Security Council. They tracked down a Contra advisor in Costa Rica known as "Colonel Flaco," who had evidence that North was involved in financing the Contras with Colombian drug money. The path led further to Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega and to Saudi funding sources. Kerry won support from Republicans on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to launch an official investigation in large part because of the drug aspect. (Since Vietnam, concerned about the destructive heroin addiction of many veterans, Kerry had keenly followed the geopolitics of drugs and CIA complicity.)

<snip> North learned of Kerry's work and told the Secret Service and the FBI that Kerry was protecting a possible presidential assassin. The FBI harassed "Flaco," subjected him to a polygraph and determined he was no threat, but he was intimidated into silence. Republican staffers leaked information about Kerry's investigation to the Reagan White House and Justice Department. An assistant U.S. attorney in Florida, prosecuting a case based on Kerry's leads, was ordered by the Justice Department to drop the matter. Then Kerry's top aide was falsely charged with ethics violations and investigated by the Senate ethics committee, which later concluded the accusations were empty. Conservative media published stories claiming Kerry was attempting to force witnesses to commit perjury. "Expensive, Extensive, in Vain," ran a headline in the right-wing Washington Times. Virtually the entire Washington press corps dismissed Kerry's effort as a fantastic delusion and ignored it.

<snip> In October 1986, Kerry questioned the neoconservative assistant secretary of state for Latin America, Elliott Abrams, who brazenly lied about foreign funding for the Contras. It was this testimony that led in time to Abrams' pleading guilty to a felony. (He was pardoned by the elder Bush and is now the NSC's chief for Middle East policy.)</>

So, anybody have a clue as to why so many of the same ol gang from the administration that gave us Iran/Contra did ANYTHING & EVERYTHING to keep John Kerry out of the White House? The man has a knack for whacking their criminal enterprises.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Who does?
The Swift Boat Liars? The flip-floppers in the WH? I doubt it.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Check my edit - info just for you
and anybody who doesn't know much more about history besides what they heard on TV last year during a campaign
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I have more recent history in mind
but I hope he returns to those Bush whacking roots.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. come to memory island with me
the press babied the swift boat liars and said flip flop at least 20k a day.... this is the minutes of a meeting with blair and bush. and it validates the "crappy info" re the invasion of iraq.
it will be a battle, but the ducks are lined up
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Maybe the Dems have changed, but have the media?
I'm jut asking. I can't stand to see Dems with overhigh expectations get crushed again and again and again. It's too painful.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. we go no where with defeatist attitude
they did it in 2000 and in 2004, if they do it again we deserve what we get. there is too much at stake. we need to break through the msm brick wall that only bounces back republican propaganda
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #41
70. It's not defeatist to be realistic, based on experience, is it?
I'm not saying people shouldn't support any effort to get the Minutes out there and discussed and finally *understood* by the American people. I am only saying that it isn't wise to put all one's eggs in the Kerry basket, to believe that Kerry is somehow going to be able to do what Conyers has not been able to do, which is get these Minutes on the nation's front burner. I hope he will be able to do it, of course. But I am not expecting him to be able to.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. Iran-Contra, CIA drug running...
He never pursued that as far as he could have, but let's hope he does this time! He probably bought some of their bullshit to some extent - he voted for the war, after all - I imagine he, like everyone else, doesn't like being lied to. Let's hope he shows his more aggressive side and doesn't flip-flop...

Anyway, thumbs up for John Kerry for doing this :thumbsup:
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
71. Amen!
:thumbsup:

What you said!
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:06 PM
Original message
Terra attack, Terra attack.
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Im with Rosey Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. But how will we know?
We don't have the color-coded terror alert scale anymore!
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Their is no defense. The only thing they can do is another
TERROR ATTACK. WTC worked so well for them do you doubt they would do it again?
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. "Are you saying that the world would be better off with Saddam
still in power"? This is the response that was cooked up years ago knowing that eventually they would get caught, and they have used it for years without exception or deviation.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Right + "This is just an internet rumor"
Almost guarantee it.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. hume is always so amused by those "liberal bloggers"
always get'n it wrong.
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Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. And a counter-attack to that:
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 04:38 PM by Brotherjohn
You people (neo-con Bush defenders, not you) always ask that as if that it's the only issue involved. Well, in and of itself, NO, the world would not be better off with Saddam in power. But that's not the only thing that has happened, is it? Any military intervention, in fact anything that happens in the world, has costs and benefits. What have we gained and what have we lost?

Well, if Saddam in fact HAD been a great threat to us and HAD possessed WMDs, then we would have gained an awful lot. But that is not the case. So right off the bat we lose one of our biggest benefits (in fact, the very reason Bush argued that was was necessary).

And well, if Saddam had in fact been in league with Al Qaeda, then we would have gained a lot. But we now know that to have been untrue, too. So there goes our second biggest benefit (and the second biggest reason Bush gave for war being necessary).

Stability in Iraq? We're waiting...

So we're already losing ground here, and we haven't even gotten to the costs yet. We're also talking, at best, one of the biggest, most incompetent, 'miscalculations' in the history of our country... and at worst, one of the biggest deceptions in the history of our country.

The remaining benefit? We have one less dictator in the world, and that is good. But from what we now know, that dictator was not a threat to us or anyone else.

And what has been the cost of getting rid of that dictator?
- Billions of dollars with no end in sight.
- Hundreds (if not soon thousands of American lives), and counting.
- Untold tens of thousands of innocent civilian lives in Iraq, and counting.
- Many of the resources we could have used elsewhere in fighting terrorism.
- A worldwide increase in terrorism.
- Most of the goodwill and credibility we have built up with our allies around the world since World war II.
- All of our credibility with the Islamic world.

And that last one may in fact lose us the War on Terror. It certainly hasn't helped.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. All good, but too fucking nuanced.
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Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. All that adds up to "Was it worth it? Were they RIGHT?"
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 04:46 PM by Brotherjohn
Answers: NO and NO.

All the other stuff, all the 'nuance', can still be said... there's plenty of time to talk in the 24-hour news cycle.

But the message behind the above is:
"They were WRONG!"

And the Downing St. minutes show:
"They KNEW they were wrong!"

And, as the poster below points out, we need to stay on these messages like a hawk. We need to repeat ad infinitum, just like they do. If we do (if the media allows us to), the message WILL get out. In fact, I think it IS getting out. As the war drags on and more people die, Americans have become more and more disenchanted with the Bush administration. I think they are coming more and more to accept the 'nuances' of this situation every day.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I'm with you on the No NO reply Brother.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
63. And to complete the trifecta
"They LIED!"
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
66. Yeah, too nuanced...
...so I always say: "The world would be better off without a lot of people. The world would be better off without George Bush." Shuts 'em up right away!
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. My answer to that is yes
The world was a much better place when Saddam was running Iraq. The world was also a better place before Bush stole the election in 2000. Anyone who denies that is ignoring reality.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. the very truthful answer is yes
this administration has ignited terrorism
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. And to be sure, more people are reaching that conclusion every day.
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 05:13 PM by The_Casual_Observer
We will know when the breaking point has been reached when they don't say it anymore. The day is coming.
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Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Yes. Just like I say the Downing St. minutes didn't appear in a vacuum...
... Saddam wasn't taken out in a vacuum.

A lot of things had to happen in conjunction with that, and the net result has been bad. Hell, it's why Bush's own father didn't take him out.

I know that flirts a little too close to "nuance" for Bush apologists, but I think (I hope) that the American people are getting a little sick and tired of Mr. "Bring'em On" and the "Axis of Evil", "Dead or Alive" talk.

I would think, the way this administration is going, people would start to see that maybe the world IS a nuanced place.
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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. Are you saying
that the world is better off with Bush in power...
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. i love this
perfect back hand lobbed into their court. thanks
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. That's why WE MUST use the GOP tactic:
Repeat something enough times and it becomes truth.

The big difference is that the GOP repeats lies. These minutes actually ARE truth.

Repeat everyone, repeat it to everyone you know, to every media outlet. Don't let this one go.
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. Legs
It will get "legs" when/if the money men allow it to.

To date, Bushie has deleivered everything they have asked for. They will not punish the golden goose.
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La Coliniere Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. MSM will spin it like never before...
Ready Set Go!!!
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. Repeat: "Clinton's blow job was NEVER old news to Republicans."
It's STILL not old news. It's a nexus for rebellion, a smoking gun (to them). It's all the proof they needed.

Repeat as needed. They screamed bloody murder for years, went on a witch hunt, damaged lives, spent millions of taxpayer dollars, impeached him, and still blame the man for everything that's ever gone wrong.

This same treatment is good enough for them, I'd say. I'd call it mandatory.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Recommended
Be prepared, soldiers of truth and decency, for the enemy is a vile snake.

Paul O'Neill said that the first meeting of the NSC in january 2001, Iraq was "topic A" and Bush said (probably paraphrasing) "Find me a way to do this", meaning a pretext to invade Iraq.

Richard Clarke said Bush approached him on Sept 11 or 12, asking him in a threatening tone to find a connection to Iraq, even though Clarke told him Iraq had nothing to do with it.

And there's always PNAC, clamoring for an invasion of Iraq since 1998 and comprising many of the central people in the Bush administration such as Rummy, Cheney, Wolfie as well as first brother Jeb.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. BushCo. will eventually fall back on the tried, but true talking point....
Which is: 'In this global war on terror, Iraq was part of the plan to clean up the Middle East and eradicate the lawlessness and support the terrorists received from Iraq. It's part of the big picture and the plan to win the war on terror, that's why Iraq had to be invaded.'

Yes it is nothing but pure bullshit, but BushCo. is allowed to peddle that crap as some sort of grandiose plan of a pure genius calculation, and nobody calls it bullshit, challenges it, or demands specific information about this alleged 'genius plan.' Everyone who can raise Hell about it, treats it like the ultimate 'Ace in the Hole' and backs off.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's also time to reveal all the potential reasons for the deception.
We'll hear the usual right-wing assertions that the war was about freedom and democracy and elections.

But, really, the war was about profiteering and power.
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OrlandoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. The Republican response will be "Kerry is a sore loser"
That, and, "it's just a rumor on the internets."
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. All Kerry has to say is, "yeah, I'm a loser alright. Lost 1700 soldiers"

FOR WHAT? -- SHRUB'S LIES?

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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. yeah
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. 1700 soldiers
I wrote to all of the Dem Senators & Jeffords this morning asking them to stand with Senator Kerry, Congressman Conyers, and the other 88 members of the House to demand answers from the WH.

I made them aware of my family's military service and how serious we take it when our military is sent to war, that the military personel deserve more respect than what they are getting from this administration. That the American people deserve more respect than to have such serious allegations just waved off by the administration saying that the allegations are absurd.

:hi:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. The repukes can say what they want about Kerry,
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 05:07 PM by cat_girl25
but the DSM is the truth!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
47. NuKlear Option, part II
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 05:23 PM by merh
Where are the Terry Schiavos of the world when you need 'em?

But wait, wasn't it when the terrarists attacked us just before something damaging about the weed was about to hit the MSM, something about actually losing Florida. :shrug:

How's the Pope's health or Nancy's?

:sarcasm:


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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
52. Factual question: Have any more of "C"'s details been published since
the Times of London ran its original story on May 1st?

The distribution list for the writeup includes "C", who is cited as having reported the "smoking gun" sentence in the second paragraph of Matthew Rycroft's writeup. Have any more of "C"'s observations been leaked so far? Does anyone have any more recent links?

From http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html :

"The Sunday Times - Britain May 01, 2005

The secret Downing Street memo

SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY

DAVID MANNING

From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 /02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. ...

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. ..."
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
53. kick
:kick:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #53
73. ...
:freak:

:kick:

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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
54. I'm gonna try something different this time
I for one will not be writing hundreds of emails to abc, cnn, faux news and every other media slug under the sun telling them that they've been fooled by the right-wing echo chamber yet again. This hasn't worked before, and I doubt it will work in this case. They don't care about a few hundred emails. They have a nation of people watching.

All politics is local. I intend to focus on my local media. local TV stations, local newspapers, local neighbors. I will get atleast three of my friends to call and write with me when this thing breaks, to correct their facts and tell them in no uncertain terms that they'd better get their story right if they intend to keep me as a viewer/reader. We have very little pull on the national scale. We have immensely more pull when it comes to our local media. It's all about the bottom line, so they'd better listen to us if they want our viewership.

So please, everyone, get your talking points ready. Recruit some friends to help you. Tell them that this could very well be the next Watergate if we play things right. Even if your all friends aren't that political, try and talk them into helping you this once. And be ready for the best/worst, because chance favors the prepared.

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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
55. Jim Dinkerton weighs in.
"This is a test of the left-wing blogosphere," said Jim Pinkerton, syndicated columnist and regular contributor to FOX News Watch.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158228,00.html
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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
56. WizBangBlog.com weighs in.
"As a smoking gun it leaves a lot to be desired," said Kevin Aylward, a northern Virginia-based technology consultant who runs the conservative-leaning blog, Wizbangblog.com. "It's interesting, but it's probably fourth- or fifth-hand information."


http://wizbangblog.com/archives/005992.php


;)
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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
57. Dave Nalle weighs in.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/05/24/111000.php


"What's also clear from the memo is that in full awareness of exactly what the Bush administration had in mind, the British government though that the actions taken against Iraq were entirely justifiable, not because of WMDs, but for myriad other reasons which made Saddam an appropriate target for an effort to solve some of the problems in the Middle East." - Dave Nalle, 2005
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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
58. Jack's Blog weighs in.
http://6murphys.info/jack/?p=7

"Downing Street Memo, what gayness." - Jack, 2005.
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
59. Keys To Impeachment
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
60. I hope Barbara Boxer is in on this too. She is damn articulate and feisty
as can be. She and Kerry would work well together on this. They each have their own strengths in presentation. He's the prosecutor and thorough, she's more concise and in your face.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
61. Hans Blix where are you?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
64. regardless of outcome, bush has an obligation to address the
american people on this issue. the question is being asked. did you fix the cia information to you own liking to justify a war you knew the american people and congress would not support you on.
answer the question.

what kerry needs to is information on the bushco's fixing the information to meet their goals. and i believe there is enough available
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
65. *Cough*
I seem to recall that a certain media-sucking celebrity trial is coming
to the crunch point about now ...

Do you really think that Mr. & Mrs. America will try to understand the
importance of an "obscure British government document" when there is
such vital news going on 24x7?

I think that Kerry has moved in an "interesting" way here ... after a
long period of inaction, he's now raising an issue that is only known
to keen Democrats (and the rest of the world of course) and which will
get completely buried in the mainstream media by the banal, trivial
gossip about a rich has-been weirdo.

I'm honestly not sure if "interesting" should be replaced by
"badly-planned" or "very well planned" ... I'll reserve my comments
on that for now.

Either way, I'd suggest that dedicated Democrats have a second string
to their bow or they may be left seriously off-balance if/when this
"explosion" fizzles ...
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
67. Give 'em hell John!
This is going to be good. :toast:

Julie
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
68. HA I gave the memo to a Bush supporter and she declared it an
opinion!!!!! I told her, "No, it is not an opinion, it is a fact. Then she proceeded to tell me I shouldn't be so negative.

God help both their brain cells.

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
69. the skunk in the woodpile =
There are people in this country who are glad that we're grabbing the oil and don't think a few thousand dead are too much to pay (as long as it's not THEIR kid) They don't see any downside to The Empire... they are glad to be part of it. They assume that it's necessary, being lied to, and say they would rather not know how the sausage is made. And in their heart of hearts, they believe that they, personally, will figure out how to get their cut of the massive river of $ pouring out of the public coffers.
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Simeon Salus Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
74. John Bolton "fixes facts" for a living.
That's what the to-date investigations have revealed.

If Bolton hears facts he doesn't agree with, he attacks the source of those facts. He's a mercenary polemic. A propaganda machine. Russia, Florida, Korea, Iraq, the pattern becomes easier to discern.

That's the history.

In the Bolton nomination, we can most clearly see the way a vast right wing conspiracy works. Ignore the substance of attacks, but smoke all messengers.

I wish John Kerry would raise the Bolton issue in relation to what the Downing Street Minutes seem to confirm.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
75. kick nt
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