A conversation with soldiers...(You should read this)

[driver8]

This is from Buzzflash...

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/06/con05194.html

[tabasco]

1. I hope the blindly anti-military types at DU come to undestand ...

that a large number of vets and active troops are on their side in the battle to restore democracy.

[Coexist]

3. I think that sometimes people interchange the

administration and the ground troops without realizing they are doing it. Some do it intentionally, but I think most Progressives feel empathy for the soldiers sent to do someone else's dirty work. I know I do. Their leadership sucks (I mean Rummy and Cheney, not the Generals).

[Walt Starr]

6. I think those who do that intenationally are more often purposeful

disruptors and not actual DUers. The site that shall not be named is more responsible for slams against the truth than all 70,000 DUers combined.

[Eloriel]

10. Good point, Walt. I concur.

Tho I don't even go lurk at "the site that shall not be named" (and what a crock that is, IMO, but I digress).

Even so, the number of 'real' or other DUers who are "blindly anti-military" are very few. I've seen not that many. I think of them as more deluded than anything (if they're sincere).

[Tigress DEM]

23. I don't know that site, but I'll take your word for it.

Still, I think even if we do it politely, we still have to hold soldiers accountable for blindly following crooked leaders down a crooked path and really support those who not only leave the war, but those who speak up and try to make a difference from the place they are at.

I can only say that a power greater than myself kept my son from successfully getting into the Army until I was able to provide him enough proof that Iraq was in no way a patriotic service with this administration in charge. I felt that the damage he would be forced to do would ruin him because he is a good and honest person, either that or he would be slammed so hard from the top down for opening his big mouth about stuff - guess he gets that from me - I still suspect a lot of those early "suicides" that happened in Iraq.

[atreides1]

9. The Generals are also part of that leadership

When they fail to do whatever it takes to protect the troops under their command, when they are silent and their troops die, when they go along to get along, they suck even more then the civilian leadership.

Because they know, they have the experience, they were those troops at one time. As long as they do and say nothing, they have the blood
of the troops they command on their hands as well.

[Frederik]

16. I don't see any "blindly anti-military types"

on DU, though of course the freepers would like to spin it that way. I think every DUer knows many soldiers and vets are on their side.

[Tigress DEM]

24. Well, I have had conversations with DUers who honestly are....

totally against war as a solution and this war in particular.

Who have said we shouldn't have gone there in the first place and getting out is the only way to start the healing.

I also know a few very political nuns who would tell you war is never the answer and although they might not post here because they are too busy protesting somewhere or feeding His sheep, their posts would probably be blindly anti-military even though they would pray for the soldiers safety.

I would say that from what I have seen in posts a great majority of the DU population is in the "war as a LAST Resort" mentality. So the question becomes, "Was this war really necessary?" I think we know the answer to that one.

[Zorbuddha]

29. It's easy to be anti-military

and supportive of the people in the military who can see past the lies and propaganda, who haven't lost their soul and are trying to do the right thing.

It's like the difference between sadistic policemen and honorable keepers of the peace.

Eisenhower's warning of the military monster is no fable.

[Tigress DEM]

36. That's not anti-military, though, it's anti-corruption of the military.

Anti-Military is more like saying there is no good use of policemen because some are corrupt or simply because the threat of force or violence implied isn't a real good solution.

People who are truly anti-military believe it isn't a viable solution to our problems to go to war under any circumstances ... most of us believe it should be a "last resort" and even those who say "Never start a war," would make an exception if someone came onto our soil and we had to kick them off.

[Zorbuddha]

38. Military mind can be seen in much of the machiavellian posturing

truth-twisting, gung-ho ethos that can be rightly vilified. The General that recently came forward and celebrated his love of killing the enemy (and was cheered by many of the same sick ilk) is a good example.

Blessed are the peacemakers, they are the genuine warriors.

War is an abominable last resort.

[bpilgrim]

41. FYI: that is the same broad brush the right use to smear the left

i have noticed that when people point out any military crimes folks slap that label on them, which of course is false, but good thing we got a paper trail on DU that provides the context which clears up the false neoCON charge ;->

i'm sure there may be the rare case of blankly accusing all our soldiers but again, since we are on DU that is usually delt with by the community or in worst cases the mods by deleting it.

I hope that Knee-jerk reactionaries come to understand the difference.

thanks for listening :hi:

peace

[tk2kewl]

2. This I did not know

"He described how they would often raid schools, even more than mosques, because that is where many of the insurgents would hide out. He also told me that the one thing he felt the worst about his actions in Iraq was that the U.S. soldiers would routinely round up the kids and use them as human shields. I asked him why they did that, and he replied that it was because the Muslims would not shoot their own children. He repeated that he did not feel good about doing that, but said that it was the only way for him to survive sometimes."
:wow: :cry:

[tabasco]

8. That's a war crime.

Any commander discovering this should have the soldiers arrested.

As a commander, I severely punished two soldiers in my unit for stealing money from civilians when we were searching villages for weapons caches (field grade Article 15). We also returned the money to the villagers.

The type of act described warrants much harsher punishment (court-martial) and dishonorable discharge.

An officer or NCO who does not report this type of act does not deserve to wear the uniform.


edit typo dammit

[Eloriel]

14. Thanks for your HONORABLE service

I'm shocked and depressed by what these people have done to our Armed Forces -- not just the decimation of their strength and morale, but the erosion of their individual and collective honor and integrity as well.

Not that there weren't (probably) war crimes in every war we participated in; and not that there are no doubt STILL many fine, fine members of the military.

[Tigress DEM]

25. So what do you do when Officers are the ones ordering it?

I suppose in this case, you can say using children as shields is an obvious choice on the part of the soldiers to stay alive at the possible cost of the children's lives. Still, they are ordered into these places in the first place.

However, soldiers are also reporting being ordered to fire upon rock throwing children and in Fallujah they were ordered to kill anyone coming out of the area, including women and children. The entire city was deprived of food, water and electricity and people were starved to death in their homes because if they came out they would be shot.

In reporting that has come out, there are also many cases where the soldiers on the scene aren't given correct information and therefore unwittingly commit atrocities, mostly against non-embedded reporters.

Like "deep throat" these people have to break the law to save it.

If your CO is ordering you to do something wrong and you are stranded in a war zone, where the hell are these people supposed to go? When the military is rotten not so much at the feet where they touch the war on a daily basis, but from the neck up where the decisions are made, who can they get to listen?

[tabasco]

31. Then the officers should be punished as well.

Even more severely due to their rank.

Every CO has another CO.

If you believe the entire officer corps is corrupt, then there's not much I can tell you.

[Tigress DEM]

34. I think the corruption is from the top down....

and I have concerns for any one on the ground trying to wade through the paperwork and doublespeak on a good day. I've dealt with the VA as the daughter of a disabled vet and the military has a lot of quirks to say the least.

I don't believe every officer is corrupt, but I think the corrupt ones are being protected and promoted while the honest ones are left holding the bag with mission impossible and even when they do voice their concerns it's turned around on them.

Colin Powell stood up and said he was upset for not being included in talks that his position should have been informed about, being used and lied to, so what happens? They don't invite him back to play the next round. Him I respected, even if I didn't agree with him on things, but I got the feeling I'd get a fair shake dealing with him.

Siebel Edwards... and the rest of the FBI trying to get to the truth and it's turned back around on them. Amnesty International calls us on stuff and it's Newsweek's fault.

It isn't that I think the average officer is corrupt, I just think the system is in one giant tilt and I don't know where I would turn if I was someone on the ground fighting.

[tabasco]

37. I think you're absolutely correct.

I hardly believe a word out of the Pentagon anymore since Bush has installed his yes-men. I think the "command climate" created by Bush, Rumsfeld, and their lackey generals is a direct cause of the disgraceful prisoner murder/abuse scandals. So I am with you in distrusting the upper echelons.

I will never forget that brigadier general telling the press about the fierce firefight to rescue Jessica Lynch. Prime example of a dishonest officer right there.

But I think there are enough decent soldiers, officers and many generals remaining who will not tolerate criminal conduct. It was impossible to keep Abu Ghraib secret and I feel major crimes by the military will be exposed eventually. Abu Ghraib was exposed by a Spec4, IIRC. I do not feel the chain of command was punished severely enough. There should have been more courts-martial.

It will take a long time to clean up the military if an honest government is ever restored. Like it was corrupted from the top, it will have to be cleaned up from the top.

[Tigress DEM]

40. Gotta get rid of the Commander and Thief in the Oval Office first....

Then just keep whacking until we get to someone trustworthy.

Impeach or court martial the higher ups and the lower echelon will take note and sing a new tune even if they don't get caught.

[redqueen]

33. Thank you for your HONORABLE service!

I love hearing examples of how there actually is such a thing... most I talk with here in TX tell me there are no rules during war.

:(

[gordianot]

11. That was a common SS tactic in occupied countries.

They also put civilians on tanks while in transit. A very interesting observation made by that young U.S. soldier. I'm sure we will see much more Post Traumatic Stress by these soldiers.

[tk2kewl]

4. you are right... everyone should read this. Nominated.

[Ksec]

5. This war is on Bush

The soldiers are under the false premise that theyre doing good stuff.

I cant blame soldiers . They are just following orders from Bush the evil

[atreides1]

15. Then we can't blame the common SS Soldier either can we?

They believed that what they were doing was right, and let's include the Wehrmacht soldiers who helped in rounding up the Jews, Gypsies, and others who died in Hitler's death camps. They were following orders, they thought they were doing good things, they were sure that they were true patriots. But history has shown us exactly what
they were, nothing but cold blooded murderers!!!!

And as long as their are those who refuse to hold the troops who commit these crimes accountable, who would rather look the other way,
and not deal with the truth, then one day history will paint the US military with the same colors that we have painted the Germans.

It was determined at the Nuremberg War Crimes trials, that "just following orders", was not an excuse for what was done. We all get
taught the diferences between right and wrong, when we choose to ignore what is obviously wrong, we become the monsters.

[gordianot]

18. Interestingly enough the Wehrmacht actually refused some of these duties.

However this was often the duty of the SS who were supposedly trained for these activities. (One procedure for early SS was to raise a German Shepard puppy and then kill it on command of superiors). It was felt killing of civilians to be too stressful for Army soldiers Wehrmacht. Even those in the SS who were tentatively trained broke down when required to kill civilians in large numbers, which prompted the necessity for mass killing centers.

Amazing when you think about it Nazi Germany may have shown more compassion for their soldiers in the field than the current criminals in Washington.

[bobbieinok]

30. read somewhere that some US lawyers were very opposed to

the Nuremberg trials b/c they were afraid the precedent might be used later against the US

I think I read this/saw this discussed during the VN War

[gordianot]

32. That is correct.

US Opposition to the International Criminal Court


The United States government has consistently opposed an international court that could hold US military and political leaders to a uniform global standard of justice. The Clinton administration participated actively in negotiations towards the International Criminal Court treaty, seeking Security Council screening of cases. If adopted, this would have enabled the US to veto any dockets it opposed. When other countries refused to agree to such an unequal standard of justice, the US campaigned to weaken and undermine the court. The Bush administration, coming into office in 2001 as the Court neared implementation, adopted an extremely active opposition. Washington began to negotiate bilateral agreements with other countries, insuring immunity of US nationals from prosecution by the Court. As leverage, Washington threatened termination of economic aid, withdrawal of military assistance, and other painful measures. These exclusionary steps clearly endanger the fledgling Court and may seriously weaken its credibility and effectiveness.

from link: http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/usindex.htm

[Tigress DEM]

27. WE the People and the Soldiers and mostly BushCo have blood on our hands

None of us are pure and innocent. Even if only in ignorance we have been party to these unwarranted deaths, those people still died in our name.

Our only recourse is to put down this evil regime and make noisy pennance the rest of our lives to see that these unlawful deaths do not go down in history as a successful campaign against Muslim Terrorists.

[Bellamia]

7. Read and Nominated.

Not much of the article surprizes me, just deepens the already present fear of the outcome of this illegal, insane war that a complete fruitcake of a president got us into.

[IrateCitizen]

12. The comfortable myths of American exceptionalism...

I know from where the author of this article comes, because it closely resembles my experience.

I attended school on an Army ROTC scholarship, believing that my nation stood for freedom and democracy and that the best way to help further that was by serving in the military. I also saw war as a "man-making" experience and liked the way that soldiers were so respected in our society.

Well, after I received my commission as an Army Reserve officer, something began to change. It really shifted when I became involved as an activist in trade issues, and saw many of the links between economic exploitation and militarism. Quickly, I began to view my military service as actually HINDERING the things I thought it stood for, rather than furthering them.

Then, I began to get involved with people in the peace movement (prior to 9/11). I began to see how utterly futile and destructive war really is, and began to question whether it was something I could really justify participating in -- helping to kill people in far-away spots of the world who had done absolutely nothing to me nor anybody else I knew.

9/11 did nothing but confirm my deepest misgivings. When the war rhetoric heated up against Iraq, I knew I was facing a difficult choice. So, I filed for conscientious objector in Dec 2002, and was finally discharged (with my claim still unresolved) in Sep 2004.

But I understand how difficult it is for most military members to come to these realizations. It is impossible to continue participating in a system when you find it to be completely immoral and unjust in its purpose. Even reaching that point takes overcoming years and years of prior "programming" by our society as a whole. And it's hardly a popular stance to take, either.

So, the vast majority simply retain their belief in American exceptionalism, their belief that they are somehow defending "freedom", because without that belief they could never justify what it is that they are asked to do. Hell, I've seen it in many of the Iraq vets I've gotten to know who became antiwar activists. It's almost as if they are forcing themselves to do a penance for all they've seen and done, and while it helps them deal, I wonder if they will ever be able to get past those feelings of guilt.

Just as I wonder if I'll ever be able to get past my feelings of shame that I somehow abandoned my fellow soldiers....

[driver8]

19. Do not feel shame...

I know...it is easy for me to say that sitting here behind a computer...but you did what you felt was right for you and for your country.

I am a veteran and I would have never felt abandoned by someone who applied for conscientious objector status. You stood up for what you believed...and that is a hard thing to do sometimes.

[IrateCitizen]

21. I know I shouldn't, but I still do (and always will) to a degree...

I've gotten to know a lot of other CO's after helping to co-found a CO support network run by other CO's (), and what I've expressed is a common feeling. All of us share it to varying degrees.

It's just something I'll have to live with. I'm certain that if I had not taken this route, but would have participated in the war on Iraq, I would feel a considerable amount of shame as well. The myth of American exceptionalism can be a very comforting thing at times, and that comfort is gone when the scales have fallen from your eyes.

[Tigress DEM]

28. Guilt is an honest thing, shame is different.

People who recognize they have done something against their own values and feel guilty enough to change the way they live to be more in accordance with what they know is the truth is a good thing.

I hope that those you've met will be able to forgive themselves for being human, because that is where the shame comes in.

Expecting yourself to be able to stay in a fight that is wrong, killing people who have done you no harm and also expecting yourself to still be there for others who haven't come to any clarity on this subject is being way too hard on you.

If you and others did not leave, if no real questioning of this war went on, then that is where you would really be abandoning your friends in uniform.

They think they are fighting for freedom. They are mistaken. They think this is about terrorism. It is about oil. They think the government will take care of them afterward. The government is sending them into impossible situations and saying "handle it" and after they return cutting their benefits as soon as the glow of war fades and it is politically convienent to do so.

If you and others like you did not stand up, face the shame and say, "Enough," there would never be an end to this war. You have better chances of making sure they come home alive by getting this war called on account of lies than you do by being there at their side taking the bullet.

Watch the word, "should" and don't let anyone "should on you" not even yourself. Doing the "right" thing is often a messy business and I'm betting you've searched your soul along the way to make the best decisions you could based on the intel you had at the time. The thing is you had the courage to make life altering decisions based on new intel and others haven't gotten to that point yet. Heck, they haven't even gotten the new intel.

[paula777]

13. The author of that letter might one day run for president ...

and be pounded by the right wing for being a traitor and coward - just like they did to Kerry

[Tigress DEM]

35. Yeah, and by then maybe we will have corrected the Vote Fraud Issue

and get an overwhelming victory that was denied the other war hero, affectionately known as Kerry! Kerry! Kerry!

[FreedomAngel82]

17. That was a great article

I really enjoyed it. The guy gave these soliders a lot to think about. The only part I didn't like was "fighting for freedoms" nonsense. There hasn't been a single war since WW2 where the military was fighting for our freedoms which is the Constiution and Bill of Rights. I think it was smart how he used different arguments for each different solider. How disgusting they use children as shields!

[Frederik]

20. Also interesting that

according to this soldier, the insurgents don't shoot when they risk harming children. So what about the line we're always fed, "the insurgents are blowing up children"? Though some may do that, it would appear that most don't.

[Tigress DEM]

22. He submitted same to Daily Kos BTW

Sent a note of thanks from DU to Mitchell E. Potts via the Daily KOS contact link.

[wicket]

26. Fantastic

:kick:

[Qanisqineq]

39. Very good

Edit: whoops! Meant this as a reply to OP. :D

But I wish he had also written about any anti-Iraq War military he may have spoken with. I can't believe that he hasn't met any unless they are just too afraid to speak out about their feelings. I, personally, only know soldiers (liberal and conservative alike) that are against this war and do not feel that they were "fighting for our freedoms" while they were in Iraq.

[aneerkoinos]

42. A child-shield kick n/t