Who's killed more Iraqis, Saddam or the Bushes?

[Sandpiper]

The figure I've heard for Saddam is around 300,000.

Dubya Bush has killed about 100,000 Iraqis during his junta.

Anyone know a figure for how many were killed during or as a result of Poppy Bush's Desert Storm?

[Retired AF Dem]

1. Was Desert Storm

justified?

[RBHam]

2. No. Saddam was set up.

April Glaspie was the tool used.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. Yep. There were a few thousand during the Kurdish uprising, during

the Iran/Iraq war, and then maybe 30,000/50,000 putting down the Shia' and Kurds after Gulf I (though they could be credited to BushI, as they would not have risen without his encouragement and assurance of support).

Outside the half million to million of the Iran/Iraq war, I figure it to be around 60-75,000 for Saddam. Over 30 years.

250,000 for the Bushes, over 5 years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Ooops. Answered the answer to the wrong question.

Invasion, Gulf I NOT justified. Yes, Saddam was set up.

Mid-afternoon sugar drop.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. No it was not. If you recall as the poster above said,

April Glaspies comments to Saddam triggered his invasion of Kuwait. Saddam was goaded by Kuwait who LOWERED the price of oil thereby HARMING Iraq's interests.

Glaspie's comments were just vague enough to give Saddam the idea that the US would not act upon his aggression. Although one could argue that he took the bait and therefore the war was a bit more justifiable than this one ever will be, it is clear Gulf War one was completely avoidable and was a consequence of poor diplomacy.

[LynnTheDem]

15. "vague"?

Glaspie:

"The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction."

[orwell]

18. Also

Kuwait was horizontally drilling into a large Iraqi field. Saddam had told them to stop or else...

[Frederik]

12. No way in Hell.

Poppy & Co wanted that war to decimate Iraq's military capacity, as their former puppet had become too powerful a force on the Middle Eastern chessboard after he won the Iraq-Iran war. US ambassador April Glaspie told Saddam that the US was not concerned with "your border dispute with Kuwait".

Remember that Kuwaiti girl hired by Hill & Knowlton who told a shocked Congress that Iraqi soldiers were ripping babies from their incubators? They made it all up. But it sure worked, as it helped wipe out the remaining opposition to the war on Capitol Hill.

Remember the satellite photos that purportedly showed Iraqi troops at the Saudi border? Funny how Russian satellite pictures of the same area did not show those forces. Funny how there was absolutely zero reason to believe Saddam would try to invade Saudi Arabia.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. I remember from the time they were talking about 150,000.

And that was just the army -- it didn't include civilian casualties from the month of bombing prior to the ground attack.

And then there were supposedly another 500,000 premature deaths because of sanctions, through the rest of BushI, Clinton, and pre-war BushII. Don't know that's ever been validated.

[orwell]

4. Well

add in Clinton's relentless enforcement of the sanctions (est 500,000 dead) and I would argue that the Bushes and Clinton lead Saddam by a mile.

Add into that the likely CIA involvement in putting Saddam into power in the first place and it is no contest.

Yay! We're number one!

[Amonester]

7. And the sad reality is

... it ain't over, yet.

I heard it ain't even started... RE: PNAC

:puke:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. True..most of Saddam's crimes were committed while he was our

agent in Iraq.

[Ksec]

10. I was about half asleep

yesterday evening and I thought I heard someone on the news say that the Bush Iraqis said only 30 thousand of them had been killed? Was I dreaming or was this really what I heard?

[Frederik]

11. Desert Storm is estimated at about 200,000

And Dubya had killed about 100,000 by mid-04. That's a year ago now.

[LynnTheDem]

13. That 300,000 figure is false.

That figure was not meant to be the number of Iraqis killed. And that's a fact straight from the people who first came up with the figure, which was actually 200,000, which was an estimate of an estimate of all Iraqis not accounted for (including those who had simply moved out of Iraq) for 20 years. It was NEVER meant as "Iraqis killed by Hussein".

The figure originated with Human Rights Watch, and THEY THEMSELVES REFUSE to use the "200,000" or the since-inflated "300,000+" as any "number of Iraqis killed". HRW and AI have both subsequently sid their "unaccounted for" figures were "vastly overstated".

-How many remains have we found in mass graves?
Tony Blair admits 5100.

-Who killed themost Kurds?
The Kurds.

-How many Iraqis were listed as "disappeared" over the entire 20 years prior to bush's attack on Iraq, on;

bush's US Gov website? ...16,000

Human Rights Watch site? ...16,000

Amnesty International site? ...17,000

Bottom line is simple; Saddam Hussein and his government WERE NOT committing atrocities in Iraq and hadn't been for over a DECADE. No atrocities since 1991. No "mass-graving", no "people-shredders".

Not since the Iraqi insurgents were committing atrocities in their uprising, and the Iraqi government in turn put down the uprising.

And that's just fact.

[Sir Jeffrey]

16. Yeah, HWB hired a PR firm to push the inflated numbers shit in 1990...

Amnesty and HRW took the bait and made their case. After it was all said and done, both organizations figured out they had become useful idiots for the war and retracted...but too late for all the actual victims.

Especially with respect to the "Kuwaiti infants taken out of incubators" story. It was all bullshit.

[LynnTheDem]

17. bush uses the very same SAUDI pr firm his daddy used. And in the case

of Gulf War 1, the "incubator babies" lie was used by SEVEN senators, right before the vote on whether to go to war or not...the war resolution passed by 5 votes.

[LynnTheDem]

14. By the way, take the false figure of 300,000

And figure out what the yearly rate is over 30 years.

Then take bush's 100,000+ over the past 2 years and figure out that yearly rate.

Someone's winning the corpse game; it ain't the one sitting in jail.

[hack89]

19. Where does the 100,000 number come from? (NT)

[Dirk39]

20. Clinton

"Bombs are merciful compared to what Clinton has done to the innocent children of Iraq, the most vulnerable of all, by maintaining ten years of the harshest sanctions in the history of mankind, begun on August 6, 1990, and kept in place at the insistence of the United States. On May 12, 1996, television’s "Sixty Minutes" interviewed Madeleine Albright (then U.S. ambassador to the UN, now Secretary of State). Leslie Stahl asked Albright, "We have heard half a million children have died . That's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?"

Albright replied, "I think this is a very hard choice. But the price, we think, is worth it."

I believe there is a special place in hell reserved for Madeleine Albright.

Yes, even four and a half years ago, 500,000 Iraqi children had already died as a direct result of economic sanctions. Over one million Iraqi civilians have died from the sanctions, mostly children under age five. Those are not Iraqi figures -- those figures come from Unicef, the World Health Organization, the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), the UN’s Department of Humanitarian Affairs, and other international sources. The "oil-for-food" program is so ineffectual that two consecutive UN directors of that program (Denis Haliday and Hans Von Sponeck) resigned, out of protest that they were presiding over a humanitarian disaster which can only be called genocide. They were UN Assistant Secretaries General, the highest ranking UN personnel ever to resign for reasons of conscience. Now Denis Haliday and Hans Von Sponeck are touring America and other countries, pleading for an end to the sanctions on Iraq."

http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-01-26-1.html

Hello from Germany,
Dirk