Why I admire George Galloway.

[KlatooBNikto]

For the first time in many years, a man stood up to the bullies in our senate who came prepared to assassinate his character and ,speaking plain English, called them liars to their face.The simpering fool, Norm Coleman, the beneficiary of Paul Wellstone's death and unfit to hold his shoes was out of his league, facing a man who is unafraid to tell the truth.Another Senator, Carl Levin, who poses as an impartial prosecutor, looked like he had swallowed thunder and simply wanted to be out of the chamber from the nearest exit available.

The man they were facing became formidable because he essentially thinks "outside the box" laid out for our politicians by the horde of courtiers at the Court of Emperor George IV. He does not accept America as the land of the virtuous and by corollary every foreign leader as a venal person.He is willing to say that American policy is geared toward expediency at great cost to poor defenseless people everywhere.He is willing to call torture by its real name and not hide behind euphemisms. He, in effect, does not swallow the propaganda thrust down our throats day after day by the mindless drivel peddlers of our media.

I was amazed and grateful that a man like George Galloway is around at a time we are being contaminated by the likes of Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice. He has renewed my hope that the world is capable of being shaped into a decent, honest and peaceful place where one can respect other people even if they are different in their religious beliefs, their skin color or come from a different country.

We simply need more people like George Galloway,John Conyers, Senator Byrd,Paul Krugman, Sy Hersh, Jimmmy Breslin, a truth squad that can defeat the liars who have usurped positions of power and make life hell for the vast majority of people on earth.

[freedomburn]

1. I totally agree! This man is my hero! NT

[bpilgrim]

141. 3 posters come in here with the purpose of disrupting and locking all

threads started that praise lefties who speak TRUTH 2 POWER with nothing but immature insults and rw FUD.

it is an old internet tactic that only serves to reveal themselves and does nothing to stop discussion of the people fighting against the neoCONs and zionist extremist as we who oppose them and their murderous and extremist policies are EVERYWHERE.

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Zuni]

2. I don't see the appeal behind him

sure he is all funny making fun of those Repub assholes in Congress, but he has a long history of being an apologist for various dictatorships.

[KlatooBNikto]

5. We have plenty of apologists for tyrants in our own backyard.

Who are Emperor George's most favored except the Sauds,Musharraf, Mubarak and the assorted tyrants of the caspian basin? Galloway simply does not buy into our labeling everyone.Simply calling him an apologist does not pass muster.

[Zuni]

11. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:eyes:

[Just Me]

15. *LOL* you would fall asleep on the fact our US corporacrats suck up to,..

,...dictatorships that cooperate in dumping huge profits into their pockets. Those same corrupt, greedy, heartless corporacrats now control the executive branch of our government.

geez

The denial is absolutely stunning.

[Zuni]

16. where did I support the Bush administration?

your rather creepy knee-jerk reaction to dislike of George Galloway is what is absolutely stunning. :wow:

Just because George Galloway shouted down Norm Coleman in a humorous manner does not mean American progressives should stand in line waiting to fellate him. :eyes:
He is known for being not just an apologist for various dictators and extremist terrorist factions, but actually on record supporting them. He is anti-semetic. The man, a Scottish MP sounds like a member of Islamic Jihad when he criticizes Israel rather than a sane individual who is looking with a rational mind at the conflict with hope of finding peace. The man is bonkers.:crazy:

[Just Me]

18. Your knee-jerk "zzzzzzz" to our backyard apologists was creepy.

:shrug: What can I say?

[Zuni]

19. I am sick of this constant badgering of DUers when they

point out that this guy is not all that progressive and certainly not one for unconditional admiration. But it seems he has reached "God Status" here, DU's own Rush Limbaugh :eyes:

And it is ok to calm down, relax as well. Getting your heart rate and blood pressure up like that over George Galloway isn't healthy. No need to berate a fellow long time DUer about how unpleasant the Bush administration is either. I didn't vote for the SOB, so save it for someone else.;)

[Just Me]

20. I disagree with your reaction/opinion. Don't get all emotional n' stuff.

The difference between corporate apologists and Galloway is that the corporate apologists smooch dictator ass to exploit people; whereas, Galloway attempted to negotiate on behalf of oppressed people.

Now, it is pretty obvious that your take on "progressive" and my take on "progressive" is very different. So be it.

What's it to you that I admire Galloway? Why are you getting so ruffled? How come you feel compelled to berate those of us who do admire him and defend him rather than ignore the corporateers who have sucked dictator's asses to exploit people for well over thirty years?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

22. *LOL* are you shittin' me?!?!?!

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zuni]

25. read your Orwell

some of his best essays are on the kool-aid drinkers on the left and exposing them for the "useful idiots" that they were for Soviet policy.
Yes. Orwell was a lifelong socialist who despised most of the left and especially the various communist parties as being willfully ignorant of the Soviet Union and it's allies or in the case of the official communist parties, of being actual partisans for the Soviets. He was almost killed by Spanish communists working for the Soviets while he was fighting against Franco's forces in the Spanish Civil War. He was roundly hated by much of the European and American left in his lifetime.

Ironically, many of the left wingers who quote him so ardently seem to suffer from the same willfull blindness that he ridiculed so eloquently

[Just Me]

29. Now, I am a "useful idiot"? *LOL* What are you?

Define "progressive".

[Zuni]

31. you don't seem to get what I am trying to say

not everyone on the left or everyone against george Bush is worthy of support. I find Mr. Galloway repugnant. I believe he is a virulent anti-semite and an embarrasment to the progressive cause in general. When I see DUers praising him as if he were Christ reborn just because he made a few funny comments to Norm Coleman, I cringe. Today, I just wanted to say "maybe you all should take a closer, more critical look at this fellow you have placed up on that pedestal". If you can't understand that, I am sorry. You really should read more Orwell. he was a genius and his writing is very clever. I suggest Homage to Catalonia, a biographical book about the Spanish Civil War.

Then I got into this weird little tangent with you. Oh well, I was up early and bored---I am waiting for a Nigerian 419 e-mail scammer to respond to the reply to his e-mail I sent yesterday

[Just Me]

33. I just want to know how you define "progressive".

Stop attacking me as a "kool aid" drinker and "useful idiot" and define what "progressive" means to you.

[TankLV]

310. Simple. Vichy dems will be the death of us all.

"You are either with us or agains us."

With "friends" like you, who needs ememies.

Longtime posters do not by the length of their stay, automatically remain above judgement.

You have been suspect because of your posts.

[Kingshakabobo]

26. Wow!

Nice way to pick a fight.

1. Throw in a little cute "zzzzzzzzzzz"

2. When someone calls you on it, go off on a tirade, accuse THEM of badgering and call them a reverse freeper.

Nice job. I'll have to keep that in mind.

:hi:

[Zuni]

27. You aren't so bad at picking fights yourself

[BillZBubb]

30. Ah, the voice of AIPAC steps in!

Galloway supports the Palestinian's cause. That's your gripe. You sound like Lieberman--and that's not a compliment.

[Zuni]

44. bullshit

Galloway is not just pro-palestinian. His rants sound like a Saudi Mullah speaking about the evils of Israel and the evil jew.

[Kingshakabobo]

51. Do you have any links to the "evil Jew" statements?

If so, I would really like to see them. Not being a smart ass but I would really like to see them.

[geek tragedy]

55. He said that Al Gore took the position on Iraq he did because he had

been paid by 'Zionists.'

Since pretty clearly the rightwing Christian fundie Zionists were supporting the Shrub, he essentially was saying that the JOOOOOOOS made Gore do it.

http://www.newworker.org/nw30600.htm

<snip>
A joint statement said "The Vice-President reaffirmed the Administration's strong commitment to the objective of removing Saddam Hussein from power, and to bringing him and his inner circle to justice for their war crimes and crimes against humanity."

. . .

This was met with derision from Galloway. "The decades of Zionist investment in Al Gore's political career are clearly paying off," he declared.
<snip>

[bpilgrim]

78. the ZIONIST terrorist need to be called out

just like the CHRISTIAN and MUSLIM extremist need to be.

of course PARTISANS will NEVER have the objectivity of us moderates.

we OPPOSE the TERRORIST SHARON as well as the TERRORIST *

get used to it :hi:

peace

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zuni]

99. This is why I usually stay in the lounge

in GD, freakin' insanity.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

135. putting words in peoples mouths, AGAIN, typical

as far as who belongs here vs 3 lounge lizards i do believe i am in the MAJORITY, here.

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Frederik]

139. I believe it was Ariel Sharon

who was called a Zionoist terrorist - an accurate description. If you don't agree, tough.

[Jim Sagle]

201. w suxx but Ariel's just a man, doin' the best he can...to make the world

a better place. :hippie:

[Tinoire]

316. Ariel Sharon is one of the biggest terrorists alive

:puke: :puke: :puke: on Sharon but thank you for your comment because it's a clear illustration of how warped is the yardstick you're using to demonize Galloway. Ariel Sharon is a Saint making the world a better place and Galloway "ain't nuthin but filth". Thank you Jim!

Ariel Sharon is one of the biggest terrorists alive. He and his little buddy Smoke-Em-Out-George are very proud of the evidence they manufactured together for this war. I hope you find solace in humming hum your little jingle about Ariel Sharon "just a man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place" next time a bunch of innocent kids are blown up in Israel or Palestine.

You may ignore the following facts but indulge me as I post this for the benefits of lurkers everywhere.


The spies who pushed for war

Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force

Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

As the CIA director, George Tenet, arrived at the Senate yesterday to give secret testimony on the Niger uranium affair, it was becoming increasingly clear in Washington that the scandal was only a small, well-documented symptom of a complete breakdown in US intelligence that helped steer America into war.

(snip)

The agency, called the Office of Special Plans (OSP), was set up by the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, to second-guess CIA information and operated under the patronage of hardline conservatives in the top rungs of the administration, the Pentagon and at the White House, including Vice-President Dick Cheney.

(snip)

In the days after September 11, Mr Rumsfeld and his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz, mounted an attempt to include Iraq in the war against terror. When the established agencies came up with nothing concrete to link Iraq and al-Qaida, the OSP was given the task of looking more carefully.

(snip)

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.

"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.

(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html


Pentagon Office Home to Neo-Con Network
by Jim Lobe

(snip)

But she ((Karen Kwiatkowski, USAF Lieutenant Colonel from the Pentagon)) recounts one incident in which she helped escort a group of half a dozen Israelis, including several generals, from the first floor reception area to Feith's office. ''We just followed them, because they knew exactly where they were going and moving fast''.

When the group arrived, she noted the book which all visitors are required to sign under special regulations that took effect after the Sep. 11, 2001 attacks. ''I asked his secretary, 'Do you want these guys to sign in'? She said, 'No, these guys don't have to sign in' ''. It occurred to her, she said, that the office may have deliberately not wanted to maintain a record of the meeting.

(snip)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0807-02.htm

[Frederik]

137. Do you think

that Gore's campaign contributions are irrelevant to his policies, unlike other politicians' campaign contributions? Or that it should be allowed to point to the influence of certain religious groups in Washington, but not to that of other groups? Do you think Jew is The Word That Shall Not Be Named? Do you think AIPAC etc. have no influence in Washington?

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

200. I know Jew-baiting code language when I see it.

And saying that "the Zionist contributions have paid off" is merely warmed-over Jewish conspiracy theorizing.

[bpilgrim]

214. and DU'ers know rw smear tactics when we see'm...

Poll question: Your view of Galloway: Positive or negative
Source...

positive (81 votes, 89%)
negative (10 votes, 11%)

plenty of pretty smart lefties on this board who understand that opposition of Israeli policies especially Zionist extremism doesn't make you anti-semitic.

fyi

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

250. What is "Zionist extremism?"

I have seen that term used a few times by you and a few others. Although I cannot expect you to speak for anyone other than yourself, I am curious as to what "Zionist extremism" you are referring?

[Zuni]

61. I don't think he used those words---he uses 'code' in public speeches

but his vehemence against israel and "zionists" (other "respectable" anti-semites don't just say "money grubbing Jewish pigs" anymore---they just refer to zionist conspiracies, but the way they do it often gives them away. That and publicly backing the most extreme Palestinian factions and virtually every anti-Israel cause is more than just a desire for peace and Palestinian statehood. {It is like saying that Bush isn't homophobic because he doesn't say what fred Phelps does})Galloway is and the fact that he has publicly cheered groups like hamas and other extreme anti-Jewish groups

You do a google search on galloway, Zionists, Jews whatever and you will come up with some pretty extreme stuff. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a hard anti-semite, not just a human rights protestor against the excesses of Israel.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

136. insulting, cop outs are all you and your 2 buddies got

disrupting this thread like a bunch of school boyz.

well, as i said before, thanks for outing yourselves :toast:

peace

[Frederik]

178. Yes, he's part of the vast socialist anti-semite conspiracy

All the leftists speak in codes, so you have to be very clever to decode what they're really saying, which is always much more pernicious than it sounds. After all, Natan Sharansky says so, and he should be everybody's guru in these matters.

[LynnTheDem]

272. What the heck is "Jew-baiting code language"???

And is despising that bastard Sharon mean one is a "Jew-hater"?

How about supporting justice & even-handed treatment of the Palestinians, that probably makes me a "Jew-hater", right?

*Hey I didn't get my leftists code and decoder language manuals, who do I order from? :D

[Joe Chi Minh]

232. I am a Zionist,

but I found the Zionists who *moderate* (no don't laugh...) what seems to be something of a monopoly Christian forum on the Net, utterly shameless in their cynical and indeed manifestly anti-Christian suppression of political views, based on the unambiguous teachings of Christ in scripture, which would refute their own twisted views. And they have the gall to call it flaming! They flame regularly, but then laugh it off! Talk about an oxymoron: a fundy Christian moderator!

You know who the worst anti-Semites were? The Kapos. Likewise, today, bad Jewish people are the worst anti-Semites, just as the worst enemies of every group of people, every nation, are its traitors. Just because the Jewish people, who are and have been for thousands of years, the great God-given saviour race of mankind, have been and no doubt are still persecuted, doesn't exonerate them all from guilt of any kind. Bad Jews do exist. They're part of humanity, albeit, in some ways, generally, more advanced than ourselves, spiritually.

You must learn to stand on your own feet, and stop using anti-Semitism as a crutch. I've seen a lot of trolling on these Galloway threads, and the reason why they are so obvious is that they depend on puerile false assumptions, e.g. that progressives find socialism as abhorrent as the neocons; and since such muddled imputations are so desperately limited, they resort to all manner of ad hominem slurs - usually, similarly based on false assumptions. Why would a progressive not find spitting on a Koran shameful? In the same way that they find brutishly brainless slurs against a man who manifestly spoke the most obvious truths to people who habitually live in a demi-monde of endless falshoods?

[Colorado Blue]

238. Wait a second. The Kapos were in an extraordinary situation.

Respectfully, IMO that hardly qualifies as a good example of antisemitism. They weren't bigots, they were, rightly or wrongly, playing along with the Nazis in order to survive.

That sucks, yes. But antisemitism it isn't. There are far too many similar examples of wartime collaboration - the Vichy French government, for example - to single these people out from others of their ilk. They were collaborators, not Jew-haters.

And while I'm delighted to meet a fellow Zionist, I think the idea that there is no antisemitism in these discussions or from, distressly, the left - where we Jews should feel the most safe and at home - is mistaken. And antisemitism world wide is increasing at an absolutely alarming rate. Attacks in Europe are particularly distressing - it is as though history is beginning to repeat itself. So our fears are, unfortunately, very well founded.

I have documented this extensively. I'd be glad to provide links if you're interested. There are a grand total of 13 million Jews on this planet and we are extremely vulnerable. The internet is helping spread lies, rumors and conspiracy theories at the speed of light, and they feed off each other. Ancient, hoary texts like The Elders of Zion are actually taught and believed to be fact.

We would like very much to be able to stand up and say, "I'm Jewish, I'm pro-Israeli", and not be accused of any number of horrendous crimes, including starting the Iraq war.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. We need the help of our friends, of all faiths and political viewpoints, during the difficult time of withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. And we need people of good faith to understand that we aren't just whistling Dixie about the dreadful increase in antisemitic attacks around the world.

Meanwhile, I find spitting on Korans offensive - of course! Who wouldn't? I cannot believe our government actually did something so bigoted and inflammatory. Especially, a government which says it's religious! It's terrible.

Nevertheless I ALSO find Galloway less than persuasive. His opinions on women and gays are not progressive at all, and the campaign in London, where he won his seat from Oona King, resulted in terrible attacks on her - because she was JEWISH. Eggs were thrown on her at a ceremony for Jewish war dead and on other occasions, she was blamed for "starting the war in Iraq", and so forth.

And Mr. Galloway has also stunned THIS liberal by mourning the loss of the Soviets and Saddam Hussein. Regardless of how you feel about the war, those outfits were totalitarian.

THAT worries me:)

[Tinoire]

313. Lol. Get me within 20 feet of any politician who supported this war

& I'll be pelting them with eggs, tomatoes and anything I can get my hands on.

Oona King is a warmongeress who deserved to be pelted & insulted. Why the hell are you sticking up for her? Because she's Jewish?

I don't understand you at all. Oona King doesn't get a get-out-of-jail-free card anymore than Cockamamie Rice does. She wasn't pelted because she was Jewish. She was pelted because she's been marching in lock-step with Beagle Blair over the objections of an antiwar constituency she was supposed to be representing. She supported the privatization of council estates which would have put rent levels and security of tenure at the mercy of market forces, privatization aka Blair's Third Way Private Finance Initiatives. Even worse than supporting an obscene war, she did so in the name of a Muslim community. Did you truly expect her ex-constituents to roll out a red carpet for her? Any politician who supported this war deserves the same treatment- I'd be happy to see this practice begin in the states. The people of Bethnal Green wiped the silly grins off the sneaky anti-working class political scum who hijacked their party. I live for the day we do the same to the DLC and I don't care how anti-White, anti-Black, anti-Jew, anti-female, anti-whatever people call me but the Vichy collaborators have got to go no matter how many get-out-of-jail-free cards they're counting on to save them.

Galloway, John Major & Blair were pelted in that area too- it's not an uncommon thing in Europe. You don't hear them running around crying that they were pelted because they were X, Y or Z. For Oona King to pull out the anti-Semitic card is despicable. If her ex-constituency was anti-Semitic, it never would have voted her in in the first place. If you count egg-pelting of Oona King as part of the "dreadful increase in antisemitic attacks around the world" then you ARE crying wolf.

Oona King is hardly a progressive. She's a warmongering witch who deserves no more mercy than Condeleeza Rice does. Eggs are the least thing I would have pelted her with.

Galloway put it more beautifully than I ever could have:

"Oona King voted to kill a lot of women in the last few years," he replied. "Many of them had much darker skins than her."

And he's absolutely correct about the Soviet Union. Examine his words closely

"Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life. If there was a Soviet Union today, we would not be having this conversation about plunging into a new war in the Middle East, and the US would not be rampaging around the globe."

In other words, ever since the Soviet Union, the United States has been allowed to do whatever it wants anywhere in the world and with any old excuse (WMDs and humanitarian interventions come to mind). The USSR was the only counterweight we had and as such its disappearance is indeed a catastrophe.

And mourning the loss of Saddam Hussein? I'm not even going to touch that one because the war-excusing insinuation that this war achieved something *noble* because a bunch of bloodthirsty madmen "rid the world of Saddam" its too often a last foul resort of war supporters. NOTHING good came out of this war. I'd MUCH prefer to see Saddam in power than this obscene world crisis. Color me a anti-patriotic mourner.

[BillZBubb]

57. Please post PROOF of "evil Jew" comments.

Let's see what you've got.

I have no problem with anyone speaking about the evils of Israel--they've done more than their fair share. However, I await your proof of anti-Semitism.

[Just Me]

77. Ain't gonna happen.

The assertion is really an exaggeration of Galloway's advocacy against those who have repeatedly abused human rights. Just because there are those who happen to be Jewish and have breached human rights laws doesn't make the guy an anti-semitic. Interestingly, there are a shitload of Jewish folks who are as passionate against such abuses as any other folk.

It's a typical right-wing smear tactic; make a monster out of a human being.

[Zuni]

97. you obviously haven't read his rabid invective

he is a little to rabid and way too supportive of fanatical anti-jewish causes like hamas for me to buy it

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frederik]

180. Yes, passionately denouncing

brutal occupiers is so vulgar. He should be a little more considerate of the sensibilities of the AIPAC lobbyists.

[bpilgrim]

71. Zunni, calling out the TERRORIST LEADER of ISRAEL is the SAME as calling

out our own terrorist leader, chill...

just an FYI :hi:

peace

[Zuni]

90. He is not just anti-Likud

he is an extremist on this matter. he supports Hamas, Jihad---fanatical killers whose anti-semitism rivals Julius Streicher's. Do you honestly believe he is just anti-Sharon?

really?

[bpilgrim]

104. another empty post, filled with opinions and 0 facts

show me a quote where he supports killing civilians as terrorist do (that includes, Sharon, Bush)

show me ONE!

until then all you got is rw claptrap.

peace

[Just Me]

106. Prove it. n/t

[Zuni]

115. no matter what I produce, you will ignore it

talking to you is like banging against a brick wall. I am done.

[Just Me]

122. Provide proof. I don't ignore proof. I challenge baseless assertions.

If that causes you to do head bangs,...that's your problem.

[Colorado Blue]

240. OK, I'll give it a shot. Gorgeous George has appeared at

rallies in London where other speakers were calling for the destruction of Israel.

He is calling for total boycotts of the Israeli people, which is especially harmful at a time when they are trying to withdraw from the Palestinian territories, are cooperating with Jordan and the P.A. on some major water, power and desalinization projects, have worked with Middle Eastern and Indian sources to raise money for poor Palestinian people, and so forth. Real progress is being made, although it's slow, painful and dangerous. Meanwhile, Hamas and Fatah are fighting with each other - with violence against Israel the likely outcome of their infighting.

Naturally, this is all documented. Let me know if you want some links - they're not hard to find, though, over in I/P.

One of the speakers declared he wasn't interested in a Palestinian state, because there are already 22 "stupid Arab states" (his words). He wants Israel completely gone.

Perhaps this is "guilt by association", but it has the impact of legitimizing the extremists. That's frightening to your fellow DU'ers who happen to be Jewish, proIsraeli or simply desirous of peace, folks. Such extremism can ONLY result in more violence.

[bpilgrim]

244. Mr. Galloway, has NEVER said he doesn't recognize a Jewish state. LINKS?!?

though he has, as well as many Jews and DU'ers, said that what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is WRONG and the OCCUPATION must END.

though a few here try to spin that into an anti-semitic stance which fox&friends get away with ALL THE TIME but NEVER works here on DU where you CAN"T SHOUT DOWN your opposition nor cover up the paper trail that reveals who is spinning and who is speaking TRUTH 2 POWER, bet.

:hi:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

247. OK, I'll link you to an article and discussion thread about

the demonstration.

As far as the shouting goes - that works both ways. "Speaking Truth to Power" also applies to the minority POV - in this case, MINE, ie, the not-so-in-love-with-Galloway POV.

The "Power" becomes the majority voice, you see? The MINORITY deserves a forum also, and polite respect for our ideas and our POV.

Here's the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=92344&mesg_id=92344

Shalom:)

[bpilgrim]

260. I'll take that as a NO

you think i got time to parse your argument for ya?

peace

[Colorado Blue]

280. You don't have to parse anything - it's all in the article! And

the discussion is INTERESTING.

Oh well.

[Tinoire]

320. How about you link us to a quote, a transcript ?

I noticed people were challenged to provide that in the I/P thread you linked to, one where level-headed, very respected posters requested one and none was forthcoming.

Links and transcripts are very helpful. Smear articles full of vague insintuations by hard-right Israeli Likudnik papers are not.

Here's a lovely quote by the author of that smear piece you referenced without providing anything concrete:

We are told that since no WMD were found, none ever existed. But this does not follow at all. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sounds like Oona King wailing that madman Saddam, who buries people alive, had 10,000 liters of anthrax unaccounted for in Iraq.

11.50am:
Mr Blair faces a triple whammy in the Commons chamber today, with a prime minister's questions session likely to be dominated by the government's handling of intelligence information on Iraq. His later statement on the G8 summit at Evian also likely to see questioning on the US/UK alliance, followed (although Mr Blair is unlikely to stay for it) by a Liberal Democrat-sponsored debate on the war on Iraq.

Midday:
Oona King throws the PM an immediate lifeline, claiming there are 10,000 litres of Anthrax still unaccounted for in Iraq, and that all dictators who bury people alive should be removed by force.

"She is of course right," Mr Blair thanks his loyal backbencher, before claiming that WMD inspections are only just getting started in Iraq, and that the people of Iraq told him they were delighted that their brutal dictator had gone.

Iain Duncan Smith rises. Does the PM agree there are "rogue elements" within the security services?

Mr Blair says that some source was obviously briefing the Today programme, but that the intelligence services did a "magnificient" job. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/commons/story/0,9061,970185,00.html

So come on. Give us some links to where Galloway advocates the destruction of Israel. Or is this just another smear job like the one that was done on Cynthia McKinney? I lived through the McKinney demonization and the hit-job against Galloway is being conducted in the same manner, with the same talking points and unsourced insinuations.

[bpilgrim]

130. you haven't provided ANY proof, just FUD and name-calling

like school boys, then y'all get in a tiny circle jerk and slap each-other on the back spouting spittle and lame nonsense

very revealing...

peace

[Frederik]

144. That's nice

"I don't need to provide a quote, because you won't believe it". Yes, we should simply trust your infinite wisdom and intuition to guide us.

[Zhade]

204. So you can't prove it. Big surprise.

NT!

[Colorado Blue]

241. Oh, come ON. Big oil (BIG OIL) is practically Judenrein.

I had a Jewish friend who was a wildcatter. Big deal.

The guys who are pulling the strings in this country (planet) are the MAJORS, plus the attendent industries: automobiles, planes, defense, petrochemicals, ships, plastics, paints - you name it, it all revolves around OIL.

Please read William Engdahl's book, "A Century of War: Anglo American Oil Politics."

It's interesting. It might shed some light on these matters, and also some perspective.

[Zhade]

265. Er, I have to admit, I'm not certain why you replied to me.

I don't understand your post.

[not systems]

266. Wow. That was non-sequitur and very very strange given the context.

:rofl:

I guess some times with a one track mind you just end up on the track
at the wrong time.

[Zhade]

273. I think maybe it was a reply to the wrong post.

It really puzzled me - no clue WHAT the point being made was.

[not systems]

275. Hope your right.

I have seen similarly off the wall points before but
maybe it is just a bad mouse click.

[Colorado Blue]

282. Umm, maybe because of the bright red banner across the

bottom of your post?

[Frederik]

290. You're one of those

who think leftists are generally anti-semitic and believe in Jewish conspiracies?

[Colorado Blue]

323. No, I'm not "ONE OF THOSE" anythings. I'm a human

being, an individual, who makes up her mind according to what she sees, hears and reads. I'm sure you are as well.

Indeed, I was stunned when I heard the opinion, several months ago, the Leftists are generally antisemitic. Most Jews are leftists so I was puzzled.

However, when I started reading and posting on DU I was quite shocked. I started reading here because I'm mad at Bush and was devastated by his re-election, and wanted to work on Social Security, etc. But, the sentiments expressed against Jews and Israel really hurt and amazed me.

So, I don't know if THIS board is representative or if it's really reflecting mainstream liberal views. But there sure as hell is a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment expressed.

As far as Jewish Conspiracy Theories - those are popular on the Left, on the Right, down the Middle, in Christianity, Islam, under kings, mullahs and czars. In short, scapegoating Jews and blaming them for catastrophes is an old and terrible thing, not limited to any time, place or political group.

For myself, I've always been aware of a certain low-level anti-Jewish buzz, not abnormal in a culture that has been taught to believe that Jews killed Jesus, and who are resented for not getting with the program and converting. And, in my day, the conspirators were "Zionist/Communist World Domination" conspirators. Now, it's "neocons". We're sort of equal opportunity scapegoats, so to an extent it's just same ol' same ol'.

But lately, I think it's growing, getting worse and getting dangerous. Attacks on Jews and their synagogues, school buses, even politicians like Oona King - Galloway's opponent - are increasing and becoming violent. The 'net is spawning site after hateful site.

I really NEVER thought I'd see the day when, in the United States of America, I'd start feeling afraid to be a Jew.

[TankLV]

312. If only you WERE done. I doubt it.

[Frederik]

191. AIPAC talkin'

The evil Iranians are coming to get us with their nukes too, aren't they.

[geek tragedy]

41. Criticizing George Galloway for many here is like pissing on the Koran

for Islamists. He was loud and proud in his anti-war and anti-Bush stance, so he can do no wrong in their eyes.

When he circulates a petition calling for Tariq Aziz to not even stand trial, they put their heads in the sand and refuse to believe it.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/til/jsp/modules/Article/print.jsp?itemId=17987811

http://nation.com.pk/daily/apr-2005/19/international10.php

When the truth and their admiration of George Galloway collide, they reject the truth.

[bpilgrim]

42. spreading lies and BS with 0 proof to back it up will get called on here

surprise, surprise.

fyi: we enjoy the opportunity to smack down the BS rw smears against a lefty who speaks TRUTH 2 POWER.

peace

[geek tragedy]

45. I provided proof, if you read the links.

They CLEARLY show that I am telling the truth.

Do you think he should be advocating that Tariq Aziz not stand trial?

[Zuni]

52. Hell, he spent a Christmas Holiday with the man in the 1990s

If that isn't bizarre for a scottish MP to be hanging out with the number 2 man in a brutal dictatorship over the christmas holiday, the Michael jackson isn't a little strange either.

I really believe that if any European politician recieved slush funds from iraq, it was him, even if they have found no smoking gun yet and someone tried to frame him in the past. but then again, just like the Daily telegraph--Dan rather had forged documents, but that doesn't mean his story was entirely false.

I wonder if he asked any tough questions or tried to get anyone out of the torture chambers while he partied with Aziz and the hussein kids?

[Just Me]

60. The neoCONs profiteered from suckin' up to Saddam,...

,...and when Saddam stopped cooperating with the neoCONs' exploitation, the neoCONs exploited the people of their own country.

Galloway made clear his intentions in contacting members of the Saddam regime: he wanted to address the suffering of the Iraqi people unlike the neoCONs who sucked SH's ass as long as he agreed to provide the neoCONs with profitable contracts.

[Zuni]

65. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

kool-aid

[Just Me]

84. ZZZZZZzzzzzzz what's your flavor?

:rofl:

[Zuni]

96. my flavor

I guess strawberry for milkshakes, peanut butter chocolate for ice cream and lime for posicles.

[Just Me]

EW! I hate your flavors!!!!

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz :rofl:

[Zuni]

120. good. more for me

smell you later. I have better things to do than increase my blood pressure
read your orwell. it is like a slap in the face. being left isn't nessecarily being right, dig?

[Frederik]

146. Orwell

Excellent choice. He would have had a few words to say about the Orwellian use of the term anti-semitism in this day and age, had he been around.

[geek tragedy]

64. He sure does make an effort to remain unaware of what his associates

are up to.

Was Zureikat, the main funder of his 'charity,' getting O-F-F bribes from Saddam? Don't ask George! Oh, and the records for the charity somehow got shipped to the Mideast where they can't be found.

As the Church Lady would say, how convenient!

[Zuni]

83. I don't doubt he has profited from a lot of this

I don't want to be lumped in with Mr. galloway.

[geek tragedy]

89. Neither does any political figure on this side of the Atlantic.

Nor 95% of those in the UK.

[bennywhale]

98. 95% of people in Uk think what exactly? Is that from a survey you

conducted or just a figure plucked from the air for "fact of the day"?

[Zuni]

100. It wasn't just Blair who wanted him out of the labor party

[geek tragedy]

101. Uh, the fact that Galloway is running as a member of a SWP front group.

The Brits are a bit more to the left of Americans, but they're definitely not Trots.

[Zuni]

108. Hell, galloway isn't a trotskyite

that mofo is a full on Stalinist, kind of like Ramsey Clark over here :eyes:

[geek tragedy]

112. Galloway is a big time Stalinist, but he's even a bigger whore.

Trots, fundamentalist Islamists, doesn't matter. If you hate the United States and western society in general, George Galloway will let you pimp him.

[Zuni]

114. that is the way I see it

I have no tolerance for "progressives" like that.

[TankLV]

314. We have no tolerance for Vichy Dems, either.

[bennywhale]

156. Galloway is in no way a trotskyite. I disagree with much of what

a lot of left wing politicians in Britain say. yet i find what more in common with what unites us than what divides us.

I don't think you should blindly suck in all the propaganda spewed out about Galloway, nor do i think people should blindly support him without knowing his politics fully. Most people on this thread, whether supporting him or not seem not to have the first idea what they are talking about.

[Vladimir]

166. You my friend know what you are talking about

For the record a few facts (not to you directly, you know this stuff, but for the benefit of the thread):

RESPECT is a broad alliance of socialist parties

It is true that the major element are the SWP, who are trotskyists. There are also communist parties and other non-party organizations involved.

Galloway is not, to my knowledge, a Marxists, which I consider a shame

When it comes to left-wing politics in Britain, Galloway has delivered the far-left what it couldn't achieve in 70 years: a seat against a sitting Labour candidate. For all those of us who believe the Labour party to be irredeemable, there is no other serious alternative IMO. People are of course free to disagree, that is life.

[bennywhale]

169. You're right. no matter how many points of principle i find

i disagree with concerning Galloway, for him to turf out a New Labour, Blairite drone was good for British democracy and the Left of Britain. No matter what anyone thinks of Galloway it was a positive result for the Left.

[geek tragedy]

187. He's heading up the SWP front party now--does it really matter

if he's a Trot or a Stalinist at heart, when he's joined forces with the Trots?

He's always struck me as a Champagne Socialist--the kind that sips tea on a dictator's fine china rather than getting his hands dirty and helping real people.

[bpilgrim]

221. the SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY stands for the people...

and since he is a man of the people (factory worker/boxer) so your BS rw smear had no basis in reality but i know facts don't matter to todays Cicero's.

thanks for the kicks :toast:

peace

[Frederik]

147. Oh, don't worry

Nobody is lumping you in with him.

[Frederik]

179. Don't ask George, ask the lynch mob

They always know best.

[geek tragedy]

196. Carl Levin is not exactly the lynch mob type. Given that the man

has many detractors on the left as well as the right, anyone who blindly follows him is behaving foolishly.

He's a liberal, Scottish version of Tom DeLay.

[Frederik]

199. I'm not saying Levin belongs to the lynch mob

but the British media have certainly been conducting a rather nasty campaign against Galloway for some time. That's what I mean by lynch mob. I have to say, though, that I was less than impressed by Levin's comportment in that hearing.

On edit: Adding that I generally hold Levin to be one of the better men in the Senate.

[Zhade]

206. Your misrepresentations of the Zureikat affair were already debunked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1480694

[bennywhale]

91. Galloway has spent time with brutal people yes. but what he had to gain

from that was saving the lives of starving Iraqi children. His agenda is socialism, anti-imperialism, and human rights, the agenda of many heads of state and businessmen meeting brutal tyrants is money.

I don't trust people with power or people seeking money. Therefore on the basis of no evidence i have seen to the contrary i believe George Galloway.

[Frederik]

181. I see nothing wrong

in spending a Christmas holiday with Tariq Aziz. But then , I don't worship at the altar of Natan Sharansky. Aziz can be compared to Colin Powell in his level of culpability in the crimes of his government. By no means innocent, but not the main perpetrator. Would you denounce anyone who has had dinner with Colin Powell? Why?

[Just Me]

54. Proof of what? That we are wrong to admire the guy for taking a stand?

He took a stand against corrupt, destructive corporacrats. I admire him for that and wish there were more who would do so.

With respect to Aziz, have you explored the rationale behind Galloway's position? If so, what is that rationale?

[geek tragedy]

193. His rationale is that Galloway is a member of the progressive wing

of the Baathist party.

[bpilgrim]

66. you provided NOTHING but RW lies and smears against a LEFTY who

speaks TRUTH 2 POWER and you got called on it and you will continue to be called on the BS as long as you post the BS, bet.

peace

[geek tragedy]

69. So, do you DENY that Galloway is circulating a petition that calls

for Tariq Aziz to be released?

Yes or no.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

62. calling lefty's who speak TRUTH 2 POWER a "repugnant scumbag" with 0

proof to back up your claims is very revealing as well as attacking other DU'ers who call you on it.

thanks for illuminating my point :toast:

peace

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

75. Funny how Gorgeous George is FAR less popular amongst UK

leftists than he is amongst Americans who are relatively unfamiliar with his record.

Also funny is that his defenders refuse to address facts like his call for Tariq Aziz to be released.

[drdon326]

79. Listen here, GT.......TRUTH 2 POWER !!!!

SORRY, YOU HAD THAT COMING.







\






LOL

[geek tragedy]

81. U R repeating RW talking points!

Who cares if they are true?

[Zuni]

94. U R FREEPER!!1! This is HUGH!1! LOL

TRUTH 2 POWER! TRUTH 2 POWER! Idolatry! Hero Worship!

Lyndon larouche is cool and not nutty either! He hates Bush!

[geek tragedy]

95. David Duke hates Israel and opposes US foreign policy too!

He's totally righteous.

Truth 2 Power!

[drdon326]

102. The Clown Prince hates Israel AND opposes US foreign policy.

THAT is a real lefty.

Truth 2 Power !

[Zuni]

103. The British national Party speaks out against Israeli excess too

they must be merely human rights activists with no anti-semetic agenda whatsoever.
Just like Galloway, I hear they have begun to get a foothold in British politics

Oooh--I got another example. The Minutemen are merely anti "illegal immigration", and have no extremist anti-latino activists among them.

[bennywhale]

153. Your lax grasp of the truth and irresponsible, loose accusations are

quite frightening. The BNP opposes Israel and are getting a foothold in British politics. Right, so a lunatic fringe who recieve any type of significant vote in about three small Towns and have never had a member of Parliament after decades of trying, may oppose Israel therefore criticising Israel is evil. The BNP also want to make it obligatory for everyone to own a gun. So people who want to own guns are evil. Hitler opposed Stalin, therefore opposing Stalin is evil. Saddam Hussein opposed Iran, therefore criticising Iran is evil.

Your insinuations and subtle implications about anyone who criticises Israel is offensive.

[Frederik]

151. "Right wing talking points are true"

Thanks for sharing. I'm sure the DLC would concur, if they had the balls to say what they really mean.

[geek tragedy]

188. Just because the Republicans say it doesn't mean it's false.

The Devil deceives by blending truth with lies. Fools will either believe or disbelieve everything he says.

[Frederik]

194. Oh, but it's only those talking-points

that concern Israel and the vast anti-semitic socialist conspiracy that are true, or am I wrong?

[geek tragedy]

195. Huh? There isn't a great socialist anti-Jew conspiracy, though

undoubtedly there are a number of socialists who have gotten too cozy with anti-semites and their mythology (the Jewish conspiracy to control the world).

Galloway's theory on Gore's foreign policy sounds like something out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I would bet money that he's never been upset by Jews being killed.

Overall, effective propaganda mixes truth with lies. The RW in this country runs extremely effective propaganda. There are idiots who believe everything Bush says, and there are idiots who disbelieve everything he says.

[Frederik]

202. Groups and individuals

donate money to politicians for a reason. Usually, they expect to get at least some kind of dividend on what they invest. This goes for all groups, mkay, so don't accuse me of mirroring the Elders of Zion for ponting this out. Now, AIPAC were hell bent on war on Iraq. That's fairly well known. Just as they were clamoring for military action against Iran during their annual convention recently. They are usually considered to be one of the more influential lobby groups in Washington, even (gasp) by people who don't believe the Elders of Zion to be true. What do you think AIPAC want in return for the money they invest?`

You know AIPAC is involved in spying on the US for the Israeli government. That in itself isn't unusual, there are probably dozens of lobby groups that do the same for various other countries. But what makes the Israeli lobby slightly unusual is that several of the people in the Bush administration, incidentally the most bellicose members of it, have close ties to groups such as AIPAC and JINSA and to the Israeli right-wing. If you want to call that a "Jewish conspiracy theory", tough, because that's not what I'm saying at all. Just like the Bushes and the State Dept have unhealthy ties to the Saudi Arabian ruling dynasty, certain members of the neocon click in the Pentagon and the White House have unhealthy ties to the Israeli far right-wing.

Of course, Israeli pressure was NOT the main reason for the war against Iraq (did you get that? I don't believe the Elders of Zion pressured the Anglo-Saxons into war!), just as it will not be the main reason for the war against Iran, should it come to that. But sympathies with the Israeli right-wing may well have played a role among some of the key decision-makers. Deny it if you will. In light of this, I don't think it should be relegated to the realm of moonbats to suspect politicians of having been influenced by campaign contributions and various other benefits from the AIPAC lobby. Whether this was actually the case with Al Gore, is a question to which I remain agnostic, and I have no special reason to suspect that. God knows what reasons he saw for his bellicosity.

[geek tragedy]

301. Galloway's first reaction was to blame the Joooos

There are many, many ways to explain Clinton & Gore's policy towards Iraq.

Galloway's immediate reaction was that it MUST have been the Jews and their blood money.

Classic Jew-baiting conspiracy theory.

[bpilgrim]

303. Israel has it's fingers in US politics and very much interested in Saddam

i call that be well informed.

:hi:

peace

[geek tragedy]

306. Israel didn't contribute any money to Gore's campaign.

Now, if you want to blame the money coming from American Jews for Gore's Iraq policy, go right ahead and be judged accordingly.

[bpilgrim]

308. the TERRORIST Sharon along with his buddy * got their fingers everywhere

in the ME as well as in the WH.

AIPAC Holds National Meeting Amid Spy Scandal Investigation

A Pentagon analyst accused of leaking top-secret information to a pro-Israel group faces a new charge of illegally taking classified government documents out of the Washington area to his West Virginia residence. Larry Franklin was arrested on May 4th for passing top secret information to employees of the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC -- the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

more...
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/25/1414219

peace

[geek tragedy]

311. So you believe in the international Jewish conspiracy then? eom

[bpilgrim]

223. in this case - & others - it does and it's their agenda you are promoting

which is transparent to most, especially when its coming from the devil.

peace

[bpilgrim]

123. funny how all those who attack him got nothing on him but hearsay or

RW bullshit.

and they act surprised when they get called on it on a lefty board?

Tariq Aziz, a diplomat, is a POLITICAL PRISONER of an ILLEGAL WAR waged by the UNITED STATES and should be RELEASED.

Petition for the Release of Mr Tariq Aziz
http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=10543&s2=21

(signed by many other lefties i see... I'm sure you HATE them, too)

The Undersigned

1. Ahmed Bin Bella: Former President of Algeria, Algeria
2. Jean – Pierre Chevenement: Mayor of Belfort &Former French Minister of Interior, France
3. The Rt. Hon Tony Benn: Former British Cabinet Minister, UK
4. George Galloway: Member of Parliament (RESPECT; the Unity Coalition), UK
5. Mahmood Al-Maghribi: Former Prime Minister of Libya, UK
6. Ahmad Obeidat: Former Prime Minister of Jordan and Lawyer, Jordan
7. Mohsin Alaini: Former Prime Minister of Yemen, Yemen
8. Kerry Pollard: Member of Parliament (Labour), UK
9. Bob Wareing: Member of Parliament (Labour), UK
10. Lord Nazir Ahmed: Labour Member of the House of Lords, UK
11. Lord Rea: Labour Member of the House of Lords, UK
12. Abdel Barri Atwan: Chief Editor of Al Quds Al Arabi newspaper, UK
13. Maan Bashour: Head of the Arab National Institute, Lebanon
14. Mr Hamdeen Sabbahi: Member of Parliament, Egypt
15. Hans von Sponeck: Former UN Humanitarian Coordinator of the Oil For Food Programme in Iraq from 1998 to 2000
16. Didier Julia: French Member of Parliament &Vice - President of the French – Iraqi Parliamentary Friendship Group, France
17. Lieth Shbelat: Former President of the Professional Union Association, Former Member of Parliament, Former President of Engineers Association and former Chairman of the Anti Corruption Parliamentary Committee, Jordan
18. Paul- Marie Couteaux: French Member of the European Parliament, Brussels
19. Dia El Dine Dawood: General Secretary Arab Nasserist Democratic Party, Egypt
20. Pierre Biarnès: Senator of French People Abroad, France
21. Patrick Moriau: Member of Parliament &Mayor, Belgium
22. Sami Nair: Member of the European Parliament, Brussels
23. André Gerin: Mayor of Vénissieux – Rhône Member of Parliament, France
24. Michel Debray: Vice- Admiral in Second Section, Town Councillor in Senlis, Former Chair of the Charles de Gaulle Institute, France
25. Hani Al Khasawneh: Former Minister, Jordan
26. Dr Ali Bin Mohammed: Former Minister, Algeria
27. Maestro Angeles: Former Member of Parliament &Physician Specialist in Public health, Spain
28. Issam Naaman: Former Member of Parliament &Minister of Telecommunications, Lebanon
29. Jean- Claude Fortuit: Former Member of Parliament, France
30. Mansour Murad: Former Member of Parliament, Jordan
31. Dr. Ashraf El Bayoumi: Former Head of the Observation Team of the UN-WFP Oil for Food Programme in Iraq and Vice President of Alexandria Association of Human Rights Advocates, Egypt
32. Mohammed Bileid: Former Ambassador and Member of the Executive Committee of the Arab National Conference, Algeria
33. Dr. Sa’doon Al Zubaydi: Former Ambassador &English Literature Professor at Baghdad University, Iraq
34. Jihad G. Karam: Former Ambassador &Member of the Human Rights Committee of Lawyers “Barreau de Bayrouth”, Lebanon
35. Jose Luis Galan Martin: Lawyer, Spain
36. Isabelle Coutant-Peyre: Barrister, France
37. Ahmed Najdawi: Lawyer, Jordan
38. General Pierre Gallois: France
39. Maria Abia: Lawyer, Spain
40. Amal Mahmood: Lawyer and Activist, Egypt
41. Father Antonie Daw: General Secretary of the Episcopal Commission for the Islamic – Christian dialogue, Lebanon
42. Father Jean-Marie Benjamin: Coordinator of the Defence Council of Lawyers, France
43. Raymond Coumont: Chairman of Christian employee Union of Belgium , Belgium
44. Michel Grimard: President of the Christian Movement, France
45. Michel Lelong: Priest, France
46. Elias Khouri: Representative of Union of Arab Jurists to the United Nations, Switzerland
47. Sabah Al Mukhtar: President of the Arab Lawyers Association, UK
48. Elias Firzli: Local Consultant, politician and political writer, France
49. Dr Naser Al Saba: Legal Consultant, France
50. Alain Corvez (Colonel): International Strategy Advisor, France
51. Xaviere Jardez: Lawyer, France
52. Dr Adan Abdullah: Member of Medical Doctors Union , Jordan
53. Mohammed Abadneh: Member of Pharmacists Union, Jordan
54. Danielle Jauveau: President of the Humanitarian Association, France
55. Dr. Mohammed Al-Obaidi: Spokesman for the Iraqi People’s Struggle Movement, UK
56. Marie Lussan: President of France-Iraq Brotherhood Association, France
57. Dirk Adriaensens: President of Save Our Souls -Iraq , Belgium
58. Maher Makhloof: Member of the Executive Committee of the Nasserist Party and Member of the Cairo Conference, Egypt
59. Jeanne de Chantal Van de Cruys: Chairman of the European Committee for Peace and Solidarity with the Iraqi People , Belgium
60. Dr Yaqoub Keswani: Chariman of Hamah Party and Chairman of Third World Economists Society, Jordan
61. Gilles Munier: Secretary General of the French Iraqi Friendship Organisation, France
62. Fawaz Zureikat: Chairman of Mariam Appeal, Jordan
63. Basem Qaqish: Member of the Campaign Against the Occupation and the Sovereignty of Iraq (CEOSI), Spain
64. Jean-Pierre Lussan: Former Regional Advisor-France/Iraq Brotherhood Association, France
65. Khalid Omar: Member of the Executive Committee of Arab Youth Club and Journalist, Egypt
66. Carlos Varea: Campaign Coordinator of the Campaign Against the Occupation and the Sovereignty of Iraq (CEOSI), Spain
67. Loles Olivan: Member of the Campaign Against the Occupation and the Sovereignty of Iraq (CEOSI), Spain
68. Khaled Bensmain: General Secretary of the Movement for the Democracy of Algeria , Algeria
69. The Central Committee of Communist Party of Slovakia, Slovakia
70. Antonio Loche: President of the Italian Institute for Asia, Italy
71. Dr Mohammed Said Edries: Deputy Manager of Al Ahram Centre for Political &Strategic Studies &Chief Editor of Iran Digest
72. Elsebaly Hamid: President of Babylon Group &Coordinator of the Cooperation Belo Iraqi Committee, Belgium
73. Nassr Shamaly: Member of the Arab National Congress and political writer, Syria
74. Sobhi Toma: President of the Anti War Committee, France
75. Yves Buannic: Founder and Honorary President of “Enfants du Monde Droits de L’Homme”, France
76. Tayseer Humsi: Chairman of the Jordanian Arabic Communist Baath Party, Jordan
77. Mohammed Zayan: Member of the Executive Committee of the Arab National Conference, UK
78. Bakir Ibrahim: Former Member of the Political Bureau of the Iraqi Communist Party &Political writer, Sweden
79. Awni Khrais: Member of the National Palestinian Committee of Jordan, Jordan
80. Jaime Ballesteros: Chair of the Organisation of Solidarity with Asian, African &South American People –OSPAAL, Spain
81. Jamie Ballesteros: President of OSPAAL (Organisation of Solidarity with the peoples of Africa, Asia and Latin America, SPAIN
82. Pierre Bercis: President of “Nouveaux Droits de L’Homme”, France
83. Dr Yousif Makki: Writer and Chief Editor of “Arab Renewal” website, Saudi Arabia
84. Roser Giros Tomas: Member of the Platform for Liberation &Sovereignty of Iraq , Spain.
85. Dr Fouad Elhage: Chairman of the Australian Iraqi Friendship Association and Editor in Chief of Al Moharer, Australia
86. Izabella Kiraly: President of the Party for Hungarian Interests, Hungary
87. Akram Humsi: Secretary General of Jajeera Club, Jordan
88. Pedro Ortiz Sanchez: Member of the Catalan Association of Squads to Nicaragua , Spain
89. Hisham Najdawi: Chairman of the Iraq Universities and Institutes of Graduates Club of Jordan, Jordan
90. Paul Balta: Writer and Honorary Director of the Centre for Contemporary Oriental Studies, France
91. Dr Ali Mahafzah: Professor at the University of Jordan and former President of Mut’ah &Yarmouk Universities, Jordan
92. Sayed Nassar: Journalist and Researcher on Middle Eastern issues, Egypt
93. Dr. Mezri Haddad: Professor of Political Sciences, France
94. Edmond Jouve: Professor at Rene Descartes University, France
95. Claude Gaucherand: (Contre –admiral en 2emesection), France
96. Mostafa Bakry: Chief Editor of Elosboa weekly newspaper, Egypt
97. Amaury Couderc: Lawyer, France
98. Nasreddin Baggar: Lawyer, France
99. Patrick Brunot: Lawyer, France
100. Maurice Buttin: Lawyer, France
101. Xavière Jardez: Lawyer, France
102. Jean-Pierre Lussan: Lawyer &Regional Councillor, France
103. Aymeric Chauprade: Academic, France
104. Dr Ahmed El Sawy: Professor at the University of Cairo, Egypt
105. Yves Stalla Bourdillon: Philosopher and Writer, France
106. General Talaat Musalam: Director of Al Shaab newspaper, Egypt
107. Ronald Lafitte: Writer &political analyst, France
108. Mr Hussein Abdel Razak: Academic and Political Writer, Egypt
109. Mrs Siham Najm: General Secretary of Arabic Net for Adult Education, Egypt
110. Marisa Elguero: Lawyer, Spain
111. Abdel Atheem Munaf: President and Chief Editor of Al Mawkef Al Araby magazine &Al
Sawt Al Araby newspaper, Egypt
112. General Maurice Cannet, France
113. Alice Bsereni: Writer &political analyst, France
114. Dr Muhammad Musfir: Professor of Political Science at the University of Qatar, Qatar
115. Pierre Barneoud-Rousset: Retired lecturer, France
116. Nahed Hatar: Editor and Political Analyst of Arab Al Yayoum newspaper, Jordan
117. Jean-Loup-Izambert: Investigative Journalist and Writer, France
118. Ghaleb Fraijat: Academic, editor and Political analyst, Jordan
119. Dr Severine Balssa-Stittou: Professor of Political Sciences, France
120. Brahim Attalah: Chair of the Algerian Association, France
121. Nelson Chavez: Chair for the International Relationship of the 8th October Revolutionary Movement, Brazil
122. Szabó Erzsébet: Vice-President of Hungarian-Iraqi Historical Society, Hungry
123. Prince Armand de Merode: Chair of the Iraqi-Belgium Forum for Trade and Industry -FORBICI, Belgium
124. Niculae Pavelescu: Secretary of the Steering Committee of the Romanian Worker Party, Romania

125. Elisabeth Schneider: Member of PDS / Landes-und Kreisvorstand, Germany
126. Hadj Toua: Chairman of “Palestine against US Policies”, USA
127. Graham Long: Language Teacher, Spain
128. Mrs Farida: Academic and Political writer, Egypt
129. Georges Labica: Professor Emeritus, France
130. Pierre-Alexandre Orsoni: President of “La Maison d’Orient a Marseille”, France
131. Jean Picollec: Publisher, France
132. Susana Heikal: Language Teacher, Spain
133. Michel Collon: Journalist and writer, France
134. Paloma Velverdre: Civil Servant, Spain
135. Barbara Couso Permuy: Civil Servant, Spain
136. Jean-Pierre Bastid: Film Maker &Novelist, France
137. Marc Boureau d'Argonne: Film Producer, France
138. Jacques Borde: Journalist, France
139. Alice Bséréni: Writer, France
140. Pierre-Henri Bunel: Writer, France
141. Jean-Paul Cruse: Journalist, France
142. Alain de Benoist: Writer, France
143. Adid Dimitri Boulos: Writer, France
144. Abdulmagid Darhobi: Journalist, Lybia
145. Zein Houda: Journalist, France
146. Roland Laffitte, Writer, France
147. Madeleine Lafue-Véron: Writer, France
148. Christian Lançon: Journalist, France
149. Patricia Latour: Journalist, France
150. Pierre Lévy: Director of Bastille République Nation, France
151. Gaelle Mann:Writer, France
152. Hamida Na'ana: Writer, France
153. Abdelmajid Elamin Osman: Journalist, France
154. Pierre Pinta: Writer, France
155. Jallel Saada: Director of the magazine Regarder l’Afrique, France
156. Philippe de Saint Robert: Writer, France
157. Charles Saint- Prot: Writer, France
158. Mondher Sfar: Writer, France
159. Mohamed Soualmia: Poet &Writer, France
160. Jean-Claude Valla: Journalist, France
161. Robert Vial: Journalist, France
162. Khaleel Torabulsy: Film Maker, France
163. Giuseppe Zambon: Publisher, Germany)
164. Mohamed Zaroualete: Journalist, France.

165. Beatriz Morales: Translator, Spain
166. Safaa Al Sawy: Activist and Business woman, UK
167. Santiago Martin Fernandez: Administrator, Spain
168. Francois Avon: Former Regional Advisor-France/Iraq Brotherhood Association, France
169. Alain Basse: Petroleum Engineer, UK
170. Amèle Bahri: Computer Scientist, France
171. Manuela Barnéoud Rousset: Retired Social worker, France
172. Jean Beaudrillard: Retired Engineer, France
173. Marcel Beaulieu: Engineer, France
174. Henry Bittar: General Practitioner, France
175. Maurice Cannet - Géo Chéron: General Secretary of the International Committee for
Development and Cooperation – CIDEC, France

176. Sliman Doggui: Neurologist, France
177. Gérard Godfroy: Honorary General Secretary of Rennes’ International Trade Fair, France
178. Samira Messaoudene: Microbiologist, France
179. Narmi Michejda: Biochemist, Poland
180. Eric Prud'homme - Gérard Rouzade: Consultant in the Tourist Industry, France
181. Yannick Sauveur: School Headmaster, France
182. Michel Thibault: Librarian, France

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[geek tragedy]

125. Don't hate them, but they're certainly a bunch of damn fools

Aziz was more than a diplomat, as anyone who isn't entirely ignorant knows.

He was one of Saddam's most trusted advisers and a member of his Revolutionary Council. His hands are dirty, dirty, dirty.

[Vladimir]

175. It is, as I said on that now-locked thread of yours,

a tactical error to have centered this petition on Tariq Aziz, who I have precisely no interest in defending. Collective responsibility and all that, I have said it about the entire UK cabinet and I'll say it about Tariq Aziz. But the substance of the petition, which is sadly being lost, is that there are plenty of people being held in Iraq right now who are political prisoners - they may or may not be guilty of something, but at present they are being held for no reason other than a connection (real or imaginary) with the Saddam regime and their unwilligness to cooperate with the occupation. That is the point, not the release of Mr. Aziz - the way the petition is worded is certainly regrettable IMO.

[geek tragedy]

182. When the previous government is on trial, the term "political prisoner"

is almost a meaningless term. It's not like Chemical Ali had a magic "Gas the Kurds" button--he had hundreds, if not thousands, of accomplices.

There are probably cases of people getting wrongly swept up--but the fact that they made Tariq Aziz their cover boy certainly lessens the credibility of such claims.

[Frederik]

176. The question is still:

If Chinese neocon madmen were to invade the United States, install a puppet Amero-Chinese government and prosecute the pre-invasion leadership in the US for their crimes; would they be in their right to keep Colin Powell imprisoned and prosecute him in some mock trial? I think it's fair to compare Aziz and Powell, none of them were the main architect of the crimes committed by their governments, but they were nonetheless participants in them by serving their countries.

[geek tragedy]

184. There's no doubt that Powell would go on trial.

Aziz is worst than Powell--he was the functional equivalent of a Cabinet Secretary for decades. He's Saddam's Rudolph Hess or Ribbentrop.

[Jim Sagle]

203. They all SSUCCCKKKK!!!!! What's yer point?

[bpilgrim]

226. those who attack lefties got nothing on us but hearsay, RW bullshit or...

JUVENILE insults.

hope, that helps :hi:

peace

[Jim Sagle]

237. You're assuming all "lefties" agree on I/P. How JUVENILE is THAT?

[TankLV]

315. Question: Tarik Aziz is just the foreign minister.

He was not Saddam.

Exactly what is he accused of doing that is so horrible? Just guilt by association? I am frankly surprised he was even arrested (not that bushco did it, but that it would stand on it's face). I have yet to hear any proof of anything that he has done that is so bad.

Is he a doctor like Mengele? Did he torture or kill or rape people outright?

All I ever see is that he was a Saddam spokesperson to the rest of the world and served in Saddam's inner circle. No more, no less.

What else is there on him?

Also, nothing dilutes the what Galloway said, and when and how he said it. NONE of us has always at all time said or done things that are above criticism. NONE of us! But why spend so much time & energy giving aid and comfort to the enemy (REPUKES in case you've forgotton, and bunkerboy in particular)? Just like evertime a dem praises bunkerboy. They should just keep their mouths SHUT! Just condemn and criticize the repukes - if dems don't have anything BAD to say of repukes, then KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!

[Joe Chi Minh]

210. He didn't shout him down,

in a humorous manner, dum-dum! He forensically *tore their very assumptions apart*; he couldn't *meticulously dissect* them because they were so gross as to defy any intricacies of normal surgical procedure. Tree surgery, more like. He *had to* take a chainsaw to them. And didn't he half!

If he can be criticised at all, it's that after his epic elephand-shoot, you couldn't see a square inch of living-room carpet for carcasses.

[bpilgrim]

35. another smear with 0 facts

not very DU like, fyi

peace

[Just Me]

40. bpilgrim, betcha' didn't know I'm a "kool-aid" drinker and "useful idiot".

:rofl:

I've given away my independence to think on my own!!! :scared:

That's what they're sayin', ya' know. :evilgrin:

[bpilgrim]

47. ah, resorting to name calling now, how predictable. next you'll be called

a FREEPER.

these folks can't stand any lefty who disrupts the status quo apparently... but they expose themselves with their unsubstantiated attacks on the man and then invariably their subsequent attacks on other DU'ers who call them on their smears. :crazy:

:hi: Just Me

peace

[Zuni]

74. oh, I am the one who is crazy

:eyes:

[Frederik]

183. Not crazy

Just drinking the Sharansky kool-aid.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

88. How come you still haven't defined "progressive"?

I'd like to know what your brand of "progressive" is compared to my own.

[bennywhale]

140. Funny thing is, the insight i get from Orwell's work particularly "Homage

to Catalonia" is that the Left can never progress because they are always destined to implode due to infighting from disagreements of points of specific principle. They spend all their time fighting (literally in Barcelona at the end of the Spanish Civil War) on their points of difference rather than uniting on their points common principles. The right don't do this.

That is exactly what I'm getting from you lot.

I'm English and have known Gorgeous George's politics for a very long time.

Supported the Soviet Union? Yes. Like many on the Left was blinded by his own ideology sufficiently to be ignorant of the truth of the Soviet Union. Has since admitted many crimes of the Soviet Union, yet always comparing them with crimes of Western Capitalist nations of the same era. Of which there were many. You'll not often be criticised as vehemently for having supported the crimes of America from 45' to 90' whether directly or through support for murderous regimes across the planet but thats to be expected. My position is i opposed both.

Saddam Hussein? Opposed Saddam Hussein throughout 80s and tried to bring several points of order into the House of Commons condemning the sale of weapons to the regime and condemning the regime. Met him twice during the sanctions period when the West was complicit in the deaths of up to a million Iraqis. I've seen the footage and it makes me cringe. But Galloway defends himself by pointing out he was operating in Iraq at the time trying to save children's lives, and that sort of position was expected to be taken with the leader of Iraq at that time. Bigger cause i suppose. thats for people to make their own mind up on although i don't think it warrants a civil war on DU.

Tariq Aziz. Oh dear. What on earth is he thinking. I have no idea why he is calling for his release and i am yet to hear a good reason. Unless a startling revelation arrives on the scene he is, in my opinion, utterly wrong obviously.

Oil for money. My opinion. Smears. No evidence and where's the money. Galloway is not exactly rolling in it.

Anti-Semitic. Anti-Israel. When Israel was the underdog and faced serious threats from all sides Galloway was a big defender. Now Israel is the oppressor Galloway is a big critic. His fire and brimstone style of oratory may leave him open to the charge but his tone is the same no matter who is on the end of his criticisms. My opinion is he isn't Anti-Semitic or racist in any manner. he is an internationalist.

I disagree fundamentally with many of the positions Galloway has taken during his political career, (You may also be interested to know he takes a no compromise position on abortion. He is against it full stop.) however as much as i often dislike him, i also like him. And as much as disagree with him i also find more in his views that i agree with.

Why does one have to be with him or against him. You all seem to be taking the Orwellian political position of all or nothing that Bush is so fond of. If you defend him you are an anti-Semite and Tyrant apologist. If you criticise him you are a Right Wing imperialist.

Stop repeating the mistakes of the past, please. Lets find things that umite us rather than divide us.

[Frederik]

207. Amen

Good post, Bennywhale. I have no idea why Galloway stir such strong emotions. There's not a person in the world I agree with on every issue, so obviously I don't agree with everything Galloway says and does. But these rabid charges of anti-semitism and Saddam-lovin' is something I'd expect from a less civilized website, frankly.

[Zhade]

211. Good post, thanks for adding to the discussion.

I'm not a devotee of Galloway, I just dislike it when people intentionally lie about him to "prove" he's a terrible person.

Thanks for your perspective.

[oblivious]

217. Why do you think Tariq Aziz should be locked up?

I think that question is more relevant than saying you have seen no good reason for his release.

[bennywhale]

249. I don't believe any senior member of the Baath party should be

freed unconditionally at present. I don't, however, believe they should be in US custody and do believe there will be a Kangeroo court. This position seems contradictory i know, but for all that i fundamentally disagreed with the Iraqi invasion i also fundamentally believe in Human Rights, and anyone who may have been complicit in Saddam's disgusting regime should be brought before the ICC. I know the US aren't signed up, and i know one is innocent until proven guilty, but Aziz was a senior Baathist and should be given due process as soon as possible so his guilt can be proved or disproved, not freed to vanish.

[bpilgrim]

229. "My position is i opposed both." - and still do

it's not just Tariq Aziz, the the cartoon world view requires the M$MW keep it simple, he, and many others are currently political prisoners seized during an ILLEGAL WAR, may i remind you, who have no business being detained, in the FIRST PLACE, and secondly if they are to be detained, they must be provided access to counsel & be made aware of the charges against them. this would be a KANGAROO COURT at best and certainly not LEGAL nor credible from any impartial and fair observer.

I stand with Mr. Galloway on this issue as well.

Petition for the Release of Mr Tariq Aziz


We the Undersigned call for the release from custody of the Chairman of the Baghdad Conference - which coordinated the international campaign against sanctions and war on Iraq - Mr Tariq Aziz whom we believe to be held by the American Occupation Forces at the airport in Baghdad. He is being subject to endless interrogation. There is no legitimate legal basis for his continuing detention. As UN Secretary General Kofi Annan stated in September 2004, the attack upon Iraq was illegal and it follows that the arrest and subsequent imprisonment of Tariq Aziz was equally illegal.

Consequently, we demand the release of Tariq Aziz and the thousands of political prisoners being held without trial or charge by the British and American Occupation forces.

source...
http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=10543&s2=21

well said and thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

242. Thanks, Bennywhale:) nt

[Zuni]

73. I see you flaming people on the time for not being lefty enough

for you.

Quit whining

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zuni]

105. baseless?

the guy spent christmas unwrapping presents with Tariq Aziz!!! Doesn't that make you wonder :wtf:

[drdon326]

109. TRUTH 2 POWER !! RIGHT-ON !!

.

[Zuni]

116. TRUTH 2 POWER

FUCK YOU ZIONIST PIGS! :bounce: TRUTH 2 POWER

[drdon326]

119. lol......Truth 2 Power

no, its "FUCK YOU , YOU ZIONIST PIG AND MONKEY"

[geek tragedy]

121. Fuck Carl Levin too! He was antiwar and a true liberal, but he spoke

against the lead singer of Truth 2 Power.

And he's a Jew, er, Zionist!

[drdon326]

124. Truth 2 Power !! I thought the lead singer went out on his own ??

lol

[Frederik]

177. He was antiwar, but he was still being an ass

during that testimony. Asses get spanked.

[geek tragedy]

185. He asked Galloway to answer questions, which Galloway refused to do.

Gorgeous George also lied under oath--"every penny in and every penny out" being an example.

[Frederik]

209. "Would it TROUBLE you"...

repeated x times. Like a friggin' inquisition.

That being said, I generally like Levin and see him as one of the better Senators. It was one of Galloway's few mistakes during the testimony, that he didn't know Levin had voted against the war.

[Frederik]

190. Wouldn't you feel more at home

at a certain other website, where this type of infantile nonsense is more appreciated? Where it is considered more comme il faut to mock the evil anti-semitic libruls?

[Jim Sagle]

205. The Jooooooos have roooooooned us! Moooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Just Me]

128. The mocking is childish and bullying.

No?

Let's make fun of people,...us "progressives",...yeah, that works. :grr:

[bpilgrim]

132. let them revel in their true colors

i find it very revealing and i am sure i ain't the only one. :hi:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

243. He's trying to be funny about something that is deadly

serious.

[bpilgrim]

246. oh, thanks for explaining

THEIR juvenile outbursts... on such "deadly serious" matters.

:hi:

peace

[oblivious]

3. The man speaks the truth. What's not to like?

As far as I've seen so far, everything negative about him is basically propaganda. He's an expert at tearing through it, and apparently, so are his supporters.

[leftchick]

4. and I am amazed it was aired Live!

on TV in America!

:)

[ashling]

6. Enough already

It was really goood to hear someone take on Rethuglicans in OUR Senate that way. I really appreciate what he said and the mannnerin which he did it.

However, the guy is unapoligetically playing to his own constituency in GB. He came voluntarily before the Senate Committe which has no jurisdiction over him anyway.

Conyers, yes. Byrd, , definitely. Those guys have to go face to face with the likes of Coleman on a daily basis.

[bpilgrim]

37. never enough

there are way too few TRUTH TELLERS in the hallowed halls of congress no matter where they hail from and DU is one of the FEW places that recognize them and defend them from BS rw smears, even hear on DU.

peace

[ashling]

235. Agreed

just keep hearing people fawning over Galloway like he is a rock star or something. "He's my hero."

All I'm saying is that designation should be reserved for truth tellers who have to face down these self righteous murdering bastards on a daily basis and have a lot more to loose than someone coming over here from GB who can turn around and go home to his own constituency.

Like the following post (which I just happened to notice before I started this) I would most definitely add Howard Dean to the list of folks who go up against this kind of shit every day and keep it coming.

Peace.

:pals:

[Upfront]

7. I Agree

I would add Howard Dean to the list.

[drdon326]

8. Who couldnt love a jew-hating Saddam-loving a$$hole ?

Where can I e-mail him so i can tell him to FOAD .

[katinmn]

9. please provide sources/links to support your claim that

he is "a jew-hating Saddam-loving a$$hole."

Thanks!

[bpilgrim]

38. revealing ain't it

he hates anyone who speaks truth 2 power, be they our own criminal regime or Israels criminal regime.

Sharon is a TERRORIST - Bush is a Terrorist and the whole world is WATCHING.

peace

[KlatooBNikto]

10. Do you have any way of supporting your assertions?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

14. Saddam was a better leader than BUSH. Saddam spent his entire LIFE

battling the bush regime and trying to save his people from the evil, US capitalist Imperialist.


HEY! That sounds like CASTRO and now CHAVEZ!

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

[LuPeRcALiO]

32. that's how it appears.

Funny how clams the Bush family makes never turn out to be true.

[geek tragedy]

43. Ha ha ha ha!

Wow, Saddam was an enemy of Bush so he must be good.

What incredibly IDIOTIC reasoning.

[LuPeRcALiO]

59. he did a hell of a lot more for Iraq than we're doing

and have for the last 13 years. It's called genocide and it's a crime against humanity.

[Zuni]

117. Castro begged Khruschev to nuke the US

during the Cuban Missle crisis

Castro also supported the KGB coup against Gorbachev when the Soviet Union collapsed

He is no prize in my book either

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bennywhale]

158. Hang on. Saddam WAS a murderous bastard. Thats a different

reasoning to the smearing which is beginning about Chavez.

[Colorado Blue]

281. Yer kidding, right? Saddam was a major client, especially

during the Iran/Iraq war. Bush Daddy in particular was a major supporter and supplier of Saddam Hussein, during the Reagan Administration.

On the other hand, we've seen how trustworthy THAT relationship turned out to be.

Have you read "House of Bush, House of Saud?"

[bpilgrim]

36. more BS smears

from the usual suspects :hi:

what took you so long?

peace

[bennywhale]

58. Whats BS?

[bpilgrim]

145. saddam loving, jew hating, blah, blah, blah...

hope that helps :hi:

peace

[not systems]

154. bullsh*t. n/t

[not systems]

39. It crawled out of the basement...

Where evidence plays no role only the righteousness
of a monopoly on victim status.

[LynnTheDem]

49. WOWZAH.

That's so far beyond wrong.

This IS the DU board, isn't it? Don't usually see such a load of total bullshit posted on DU.

[not systems]

50. You don't look in the...

I/P forum much.

It is the standard.

[LynnTheDem]

113. I never have...and now I never will!

Wowzah.

I know a lot of the rabid right thinks being opposed to Sharon or ever saying anything whatsoever against Israel, no matter what Israel does, or ever seeing the Palestinian side, equates with being a 'Jew-hater".

I did not know it isn't just the rabid right.

:wow:

[Zhade]

213. Uh, who said it ISN'T the rabid right?

I think you get my drift.

[LynnTheDem]

219. Who DID say that, anyhoo???

As I wallow my way out of the drift... :D

Yep, I've had suspicions for a long while.

[Zhade]

224. Actually, after reading further, I'm drifting back to shore.

I think Tinoire nailed it better than I could. The Doc is wrong, but I'm not yet convinced he's a freeper.

[LynnTheDem]

239. Tinoire nails things perfectly.

:)

[Zhade]

264. DUers like her and yourself are treasures.

Nice write-up of your work at ICH, btw!

[LynnTheDem]

268. Thanks, Zhade!

:hug:

Gawd what a difference in reception here on DU to that post I did, than when I did similiar posts in 2002 - 2004 elsewhere!

But I did increase my cussing vocabulary tremendously from the responses to those posts back then on other political boards! :D :D :D

[Zhade]

271. Ha! Indeed. We've all had many chances to increase our cursing skills.

Dammit. :D

[LynnTheDem]

276. I can make hubby's soldiers blush.

Heh. :D

[Zhade]

277. I believe it!

:evilgrin:

[Colorado Blue]

245. Wait a second! The implication that proIsraelis are defacto

rightwingers is neither fair nor true. Nor is it fair to assume that people unsmitten with George Galloway are rightwingers or anti-progress. Perhaps we just don't like his stance on women, on gays, or his opportunism. Allegations concerning certain charities, which I'm trying to learn more about, are also unsettling.

Just because people aren't marching in lockstep, doesn't make them rightwingers or even, wrong.

Meanwhile, these threads are becoming poisonous to any Jewish person, very upsetting. The not-so-veiled implications of conspiracies, etc., are alarming and to me personally, really frightening.

Surely one can, upon re-reading the thread, see why this might be so?

[bpilgrim]

248. people spreading RW BS TALKING POINTS will get CALLED OUT every-time on DU

where you been?

and NO-ONE is pedaling those ABSOLUTES in your post cept YOU and 2 or 3 others. though it is a POPULAR STRAW MAN amongst a few.

"Meanwhile, these threads are becoming poisonous to any Jewish person, very upsetting. The not-so-veiled implications of conspiracies, etc., are alarming and to me personally, really frightening."

trying to get the thread locked, eh, on FUD... SURPRISE.

i am surprised it hasn't been looked yet though with all the personal attacks and innuendo spread by the Galloway haters :shrug:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

254. OK - now that's not fair. I was expressing my personal

beliefs, and my personal reactions to certain comments. And yes, they're pretty worrisome to Jewish people in general. Conspiracy theories and calls for the destruction of and/or damage to Israel, generally are.

Since when are any of those statements, right-wing talking points?

Liberals allow each other to speak; they do not try to shut down the voice of the individual OR of the minority.

The very fact that we Jews number, in America, around 2% of the population, probably ALSO accounts for the fact that you aren't hearing from more of us on this thread.

There just aren't that many of us. Our small numbers on this thread reflect that fact. However, there are, no doubt, people WITHIN that group who think Galloway's the cat's pajamas.

As to whether or not this thread deserves to be locked, have I said as much? Perhaps it does. But, I haven't alerted, because I want to TALK TO YOU, and hopefully have you listen, just a little bit, to me.

[not systems]

258. If liberals allow each other to speak and

do not try to shut down the voice of the individual OR of the minority,
what does the accusation of "jew-hating" and "anti-Semitism" do to
liberal dialog.

Do you really believe that Galloway is these things?

Or is it just a tactic?

Assuming you don't think Galloway is "jew-hating" and "anti-Semetic"
how do you feel about people who jump in with these accusations?

Doesn't that "poison" the dialog?

[Colorado Blue]

279. I don't know about Galloway, to be honest. Some of his

comments and associations trouble me. As a liberal, his defense of Saddam makes me nervous. Ditto - the Soviet Union. This has nothing to do with my feelings about socialism, by the way. My aunt was a communist and my mom was a socialist, so I'm familiar with the philosophy. BUT - the Soviet Union was a brutal totalitarian state that persecuted individualistic people, artists, writers, religious people - anybody who "rocked the boat." So his sadness at the fall of the Soviet Union troubles me. His lack of support for women's and gay rights troubles me also.

Galloway's participation in the rally where really extremist antiIsraeli speakers were also present, was troubling insofar as it seemed to lend them some of his stature and legitimacy. That's worrisome. His own comments could be interpreted as antisemitic, for sure.

So no - fearing that Galloway could be antisemitic - it's not just a tactic. Although I'm not sure what is meant by "tactic"? I think people really feel this way. And that being the case, instead of people just jumping on them (us), perhaps, people could ask, well, WHY do you feel that way? That would help open up the dialogue BIG TIME. We could explain our feelings, you could explain yours, so forth.

I do think quite a few of the comments you mention were actually in response to statements made by posters, rather than by or about, Galloway.

Accusing people who AREN'T in love with Galloway of being "the voice of AIPAC", rightwing, etc., is upsetting. It's upsetting to ME that AIPAC, Israel, Jews, are being demonized and blamed for our current situation, when it is pretty clear that George Bush is quite capable of getting into trouble all by himself - especially with Rummy, Cheney, Rove and Daddy to "help", not to mention, BIG OIL.

History shows that this frequently results in real persecution. It's already happening, actually, especially in Europe, so these aren't idle fears. I saw some deleted posts that were very upsetting and clearly biased. I think it's a scary trend.

In any case, such posts are bound to get a response from angry Jewish people.

I would suggest, if posters would stop automatically referring to people who don't like Galloway as rightwingers or making insinuations about Jewish conspirators, etc, or publishing huge banners with Jewish names on them, declaring that same were MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS - as if that's illegal; or insinuating that Al Gore was bought off by Jews, etc, we'd see a lot less anger coming from said Jews.

Then, we could discuss Galloway rationally, civilly, and exchange ideas. We could say, gee, I feel that Galloway's ideas are troubling because... or, well, I really like Galloway because...without there being sides taken or slurs made or accusations hurled.

Does this make sense?

[not systems]

285. Very rational of you but how do you...

feel about post #8 on this thread?

Why don't you go read post #0 through #7 and tell me
that this is not over the top and uncalled for behavior.

You sound very rational about Galloway and surly you
can recognize that post #8 was outside the "liberal"
dialog that you are asking for.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3783877&mesg_id=3783949&page=

You may find Galloway "troubling" and have list many reason
that you do so? Fine. But at least recognize that some of the
people tossing your concerns around are doing so in a very
childish way.

Take care.

[Frederik]

292. Soviet Union

What you wrote about the Soviet Union is true, BUT it's a fact that for far too many people the collapse of the Soviet Union had the unhappy consequence that they were plunged into unemployment, crime, prostitution, drug addiction and an early death. Average living standards and life expectancy both sunk in Russia after the fall of Communism, as a result of the Friedmanesque "shock therapy" imposed on the Russian people designed to make Western corporations stinking rich. I can imagine that this is what Galloway meant by lamenting the fall of the Soviet Union, and that the DLC-Dems on this board are twisting it to be support for Stalin. But I haven't seen the quote, so I don't know.

No one is blaming AIPAC etc. for "our current situation". BUT, they clearly were one of the main cheerleaders of the war on Iraq, they are currently in the forefront of the Iranian mushroom cloud campaign, and they do have more influence than most of the lobbying groups that are lobbying for foreign governments in Washington.

It's not criticism of Galloway that is AIPACish - it's the rabid accusation of anti-semitism, which one too often hear from orgaisations such as AIPAC and the Anti-Defamation League when they are completely baseless, poisoning any discussion about Israeli lobbying, espionage, and policy.

[bpilgrim]

259. you & your two cohorts putting WORDS in DU'ers mouths is NOT FAIR, bet

and this thread is about GALLOWAY not the specious LIE of anti-Semites :puke:

do you REALLY think DU'ers are that ignorant to fall for the RW BS lies?!?

i've been listening to the LIES and RESPONDING but that only seems to make y'all whine and insult.

and you BS about not alerting is proven by your previous post where you posted your alert for ALL to see, including the mods.

you guys need to play a LOT more chess before trying to fool DU ;->

:hi:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

278. I play chess! Do you? What's your strength? My old man

is high master level but I'm only a low expert on a good day, which isn't often. That's still enough to put me in the top 50 women in the US, which isn't saying much.

I got sick a few years ago so I haven't been able to play tournaments for awhile but maybe I can go back soon.

I do miss it.

Do you have a favorite player? Favorite opening? I've always enjoyed the White side of the Ruy Lopez and the Black side of the Sicilian Dragon.

You?

[not systems]

257. If this thread is alarming it is because of...

certain people baiting the issues that make you "unsettling".

Some of the juvenile name calling and accusations are beyond belief.

The "not-so-veiled" accusations of "anti-Semitism" and "jew-hating" are
at least as alarming to see being repeatedly dragged out to silence
opposing points of view.

I saw this thread the first time around so rereading will not be needed.

Does anyone remember MuddleOfTheRoad who had a similar MO for years
before outing him self as a mole.

That was funny.

[Frederik]

212. There's that other website

where I'm sure someone would instantly become very popular for his well thought through and informed posts about subjects he has a wealth of information about.

[radwriter0555]

13. PLEASE add the Amazing Senator BOXER and Nancy Pelosi to that list

of people not willing to sell us down the river.

[Behind the Aegis]

287. Sure you can still stand by her?

I think it is finally time we stood up and thanked Rep. Nancy Pelosi, the darling Democrat from the Bay Area who leads her party in the House. Pelosi's recent speech to the Israel-American lobby AIPAC, the second largest lobby in Washington, was monumental - truly unparalleled in its candor.

Despite the fact that AIPAC was recently busted for spying on the United States, Pelosi, along with many other top bureaucrats from Washington, gushed effusions of praise on the foreign power. "There are those who contend that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is all about Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza," Pelosi said as she rallied AIPAC loyalists. "This is absolute nonsense. In truth, the history of the conflict is not over occupation, and never has been: it is over the fundamental right of Israel to exist."

Apparently Pelosi has never asked a Palestinian what they think of Israel's brutality. Not that she hasn't witnessed the occupation first hand; Pelosi is just not concerned in the least with the Palestinian resistance.

"This spring, I was in Israel as part of a congressional trip that also took us to Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq," said Pelosi. "One of the most powerful experiences was taking a helicopter toward Gaza, over the path of the security fence. We set down in a field that belonged to a local kibbutz. It was a cool but sunny day, and the field was starting to bloom with mustard. Mustard is a crop that grows in California, and it felt at that moment as if I were home. And then we were told that the reason we had to land in that field, as opposed to our actual destination, was because there had been an infiltration that morning, and they weren't sure how secure the area was. And that point alone brought us back to the daily reality of Israel: even moments of peace and beauty are haunted by the specter of violence."

source

[Just Me]

17. What I like best is he scares the absolute shit outta' the right-wing!!!!

The reactions to his TRUTH TO POWER testimony before the "mighty commission" have been soooooo delicious!!!! I mean, it's pretty obvious that he has become a target because he is so powerful that he's aroused the fears of the fascists.

He voluntarily walked into the crossfire with the attitude that his persecutors were going to be confronted with their own gluttonous corruption, and the man succeeded!!!

I am still in awe of his courage, intelligence, steadfast passion and strength. I want some of THAT!!!!

[geek tragedy]

46. The rightwing would LOVE it if the Democratic party sounded like

George Galloway. The Dems would only get about 10% of the vote if that happened.

[bpilgrim]

53. the CARTOON WORLD VIEW is coming to an end, bet

and we got quite a few who keep getting elected who speak TRUTH 2 POWER so even today your DLC tactic is false.

the real MSG is that weTHEpeople are waking up and there is gonna be hell to pay for those who endorse the CARTOON WORLD VIEW.

fortunately we have the DU, with it's paper trail, to counter all the BS coming from todays CICERO'S :bounce:

Thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNETs :evilgrin:

peace

[geek tragedy]

56. Uh, no. Someone who openly compares the US to Nazi Germany,

is actively supporting the head-choppers and people shooting at US troops and bombing police stations in Iraq, who was outspoken in his opposition to the US taking out the Taliban, who has spent the past decade fellating Saddam and his regime, and who is an unrepentant Stalinist would be electoral poison.

[LuPeRcALiO]

63. who's buidling the concentration camps in Falujah?

it ain't Saddam.

[geek tragedy]

67. Do you have ANY idea what would happen if a Dem presidential nominee

used that kind of rhetoric? We'd lose about 80% of our base.

[LuPeRcALiO]

72. what does that have to do with Falujah?

and for the record, Kerry has been calling for Rumsfeld's resignation ever since the Abu Ghraib torture came to light.

[geek tragedy]

76. John Kerry is about ten miles closer to the center than Galloway.

Galloway is more extreme than Kucinich, Badnarik, and Sharpton combined.

[LuPeRcALiO]

82. Galloway just put the facts more plainly.

He's at liberty to speak bluntly because he's not running for anything.
But they're the same facts.

edit to add, not running for anything here.

[geek tragedy]

87. Uh, he just ran for Parliament.

He panders to a very far left and very angry constituency.

[LuPeRcALiO]

92. yes but you brought up US politicians

and Galloway was speaking to the US Senate. And incidentally lapdog extraordinaire Tony Blair is backing away from US policy as fast as his furry legs will let him

[bennywhale]

161. Do you know the political demographics of Bethnall green do you.

Your debating technique is only vaguely linked to anything truthful. A very far Left consituency? What utter nonsense. The people of Bethnall Green for a variety of reasons were sick of the neo-liberal Blairite project of which Oona King was a disciple. Like many in the country they wanted to vote out Blairites, and Bethnall Green was one of the only places offering a credible (don't jump on that, i'm talking in terms of chance of election) Left alternative.

[geek tragedy]

189. It's pretty clear he chose the place for its Muslim constituency--ripe

ground for his anti-war, anti-Israel rhetoric.

[Frederik]

227. Oh no, he found people who appreciate

anti-war rhetoric! Everyone knows that war is always the best way to solve problems. Libruls R evil.

[Tinoire]

321. Oh whew. Am I ever glad to see you in this thread

a belated welcome to DU! :toast:

[bpilgrim]

111. more rw BULLSHIT propping up the CARTOON WORLD VIEW

fyi: we compare bush to nazi germany and imperial japan ALL THE TIME.

peace

[geek tragedy]

118. Yeah, and guess what would happen if the majority (or even a significant

minority) of Democratic party leaders agreed with you and your ilk?

Answer: Karl Rove would be the happiest man on the planet.

[bpilgrim]

127. that's all y'all got is weak FUD

just like the DLC and third-way crowd who lead us into this mess.

you hate people who speak the truth and wanna maintain the status quo on the misguided notion that WINNING is EVERYTHING... well i got news fer ya... the status quo ain't winning, time for weTHEpeople to step up and tell it like it is.

Thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNET's :bounce:

peace

[Just Me]

131. ,...and name-calling and mocking and "zzzzzzzz",...

:eyes:

[bennywhale]

165. You sound like a US liberal imperialist

like Clinton et al. This isn't an insult just an observation. Am i right?

What do you see as America's position/role in the world?

[geek tragedy]

186. To use its power responsibly and wisely.

Afghanistan was the right decision, Iraq was very much a poor decision.

The funds that went into blowing Iraq up should have been poured into Afghanistan.

[Zhade]

216. Just curious: was carpet-bombing Afghanistan the right decision?

Going after terrorists for a criminal action like 9/11 is one thing, carpet-bombing (with illegal cluster bombs) innocent Afghanis is quite another.

What is your stance on the U.S. military carpet-bombing Afghanistan?

[geek tragedy]

302. Carpet bombing military encampments is perfectly okay.

The actual amount of carpet-bombing was limited. It's not like they carpet bombed cities or heavily inhabited areas.

[bpilgrim]

304. how many weddings, hospitals, schools & REDCROSS facilities did they BOMB

again?

peace

[geek tragedy]

307. That wasn't carpet-bombing.

Learn the difference.

Still wrong and tragic, but not the same thing.

[bpilgrim]

309. even worse

targeted

peace

[Tinoire]

322. Puke. Please don't come crying the day someone carpet bombs Israel

which is one huge military encampment. Your rationale is appalling.

[noiretextatique]

171. carlos, is that you? surely, you aren't claiming "mainstream" america

agrees with you? that's not exactly a flattering statement, since "mainstream" america also believes hussein was responsible for 911. heaven forbid any US politician dare challenge the manufactured version of reality spoon-fed to idiot america...you are right about that. still, not exactly something a "progressive" would be bragging out.

[Frederik]

220. Quite a lot to address there

1. Comparisons between the US and Nazi Germany are no longer out of place, I think. I used to think it was way over the top, but the similarities are starting to become rather scary. Not Nazi Germany 1943 though - more like 1939. Except, thank God, the tide may appear to be turning, if we can keep the bastards from invading Iran.

2. Galloway is not supporting head-choppers, so that was a nice big straw man you just pulled out of your ass, ouch, that must have hurt.

3. I supported the war against Afghanistan, which I regret today. Galloway deserves credit for having opposed that misadventure since the start.

4. Galloway has not spent the last decade fellating Saddam, quite the contrary. Straw man number two coming out of your ass, ouch ouch.

5. "Unrepentant Stalinist", do you have a quote or something to substantiate that?

[TankLV]

317. So you disagree with how and what he said during the testimony?

I will NOT be voting FOR dems anymore for the first time since 1976 unless they start sounding more like and saying things EXACTLY like Galloway did during his testimony!

I wish the rest of the party would follow suit.

I want an OPPOSITION party, don't you? I'm tired of VICHY dems and REPUKE-LITE, aren't you?

[JanMichael]

28. Some folks just don't want to admire him. To the point of twisting....

...the facts and ultimately sounding like w loving fuckwits.

As for me I hope to hell that I can catch him during his US tour to thank him personally for doing in 25 or so minutes what so many Dem "moderates" have failed to do over the last 5 years.

George is one of my favorite Leftists.

PS~ On edit I want to ad that Galloway isn't the 2nd coming of J flippin' C either, he's not perfect nobody is for crying out loud, but compared to MOST of our pussy footed "representatives" he takes the cake.

[LuPeRcALiO]

34. He "water boarded" them in their own slime.

Those a-holes tried to give Galloway the SBVT treatment and for once it backfired. I hope to hear a lot more from him.

[Liberal In Texas]

107. You don't have to agree with EVERYTHING the man has said in the past...

...but on balance, he's brilliant*.



*Brilliant:
-Sharp and clear in tone.
-A precious gem, especially a diamond, finely cut in any of various forms with numerous facets.
(dictionary.com)

[Tinoire]

126. J'adorrrrrrre Galloway!

Let's cut to the chase instead of dancing around the grave pretending it's a rose bush... Here is what the fuss is truly about:

KATTAN: If you were elected Prime Minister today, how would you sort out the mess the current Prime Minister has got us into?

GALLOWAY: Well first of all acknowledge that we are in a mess, which he steadfastly refuses to do. He is, in the words of David Kay, the right-wing American head of the Iraq Survey Group, "simply delusional". Britain is the author of the Palestinian tragedy, because Mr. Balfour on behalf of one people promised a second people, the Zionist lobby, the land of a third people, the Palestinians. Therefore we authored this tragedy, and are an indispensable part of it. We are absolutely implicated in all the sufferings of the Palestinians, as any elderly Palestinian will tell you if you meet them anywhere in the Diaspora. They'll show you the documents that they retain from the time of the British Mandate, and will bewail of the role of the British in the Palestinian tragedy. So I would start by recognizing that. I would make an apology for the Balfour Declaration, and I would throw my weight behind the Palestinian case for justice, and I would use our position in Europe to try and open a second front, because we have to decide whether we are a European country or whether we are the 51st state of the United States of America, and Europe has to decide whether it is going to have a political weight in the world commensurate with its economic and cultural weight, and if it does it will follow a separate and different path on the Middle East.

KATTAN: What do you make of the Road Map?

GALLOWAY: The Road Map has been washed away in blood, washed away in the blood of the martyrs Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Dr. Abdul Aziz Al Rantissi and all the other martyrs who have fallen since the invasion of Iraq. The Road Map I described at the time as sand thrown in the eyes of the Arabs. It was a temporary expedient to stun or anesthetize the Arab street against any adverse reaction to the invasion of Iraq. But it didn't work and now it's been abandoned.

(snip)

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1669

Galloway ROCKS! Going straight to the root of the problem and addressing that in a solution. Je l'adore!

[drdon326]

129. C'est domage, Tinoire

we just dont agree on this one.


BTW, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

[Tinoire]

164. Hi Drdon

I knew we wouldn't but I don't see any other solution for the I/P crisis. I strongly believe an apology to the Palestinians would go a long way because a real injustice was done to them. A real injustice was done to Jews but I've never been able to make the leap of faith as to why the Palestinians should pay for that. I would have preferred to see the anti-Semitic countries pay for it. You know, a little piece of Russia there, a piece of Germany here, a piece of America there and maybe even a piece of Palestine (because of the historic homeland) but just a piece and not one that continuously grows from political greed where the tension is exacerbated by the Messianic Greater Israel crowd that people like Bush and Pat Robertson are using for other dastardly goals.

I am very, very sorry about the entire solution. If the question they asked Galloway had been asked to me, I would have answered the same way but I would have also added an apology to the Jewish people. Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Russia, America- all need to apologize to the Jewish people. Britain, American, Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Australia all need to apologize to Black people. And the common theme is imperialism. And let's not forget the ancient culture of Rome that has some serious apologies to make. What I can't understand is why the Palestinians have to lose their homes to pay for everyone else's crimes- crimes for which the others aren't apologizing except to carve up someone else's land and say "here you go, Jewish people, fight it out, we'll lay money on you as long as it suits us".

If it carried any weight, I would, as an American, apologize to Jewish people for having turned a blind, racist eye to the anti-Semitic horrors going on overseas and within my own country. I remember that Jews were discriminated against in the US and boatfuls of Nazi refugees turned back as we ignored the racism, the pogroms and the Holocaust.

I think we agree more than you think- we just disagree about who should pay and what to do about the disastrous state of affairs the racists have gotten us into. And you, from a purely defensive posture for the Jewish people we thrust into Palestine are going to defend everything the Israeli government does. Not because you necessarily believe it's right but because you see no other solution right now. But I believe there is. Apologize. Apologize and make it right. Apologize and stop supporting the "Greater Israel" folly by supporting Imperialists like Sharon who are stealing more land under the pretend guise of fighting the very terrorism they're causing. But I know why you do it. You do it believing that land thieves like Sharon will somehow make Jews safer by providing a haven for them whereas I believe the opposite. I think Greater Israel politicians like Sharon are going to get Jews killed and hated for long time by participating in the dangerous Anglo imperialist game of exploiting other people in a war of resources... And that's something I don't want to see. But I am Black, not Jewish so the personal investment of thinking that the whole world is out to destroy me isn't there. They've exploited me and my people. They destroyed many of us in an even worse Holocaust but that's because they saw us as beasts not fit for more than toiling in the cotton/indigo/coffee fields instead of what they saw Jewish people as- people so used to being persecuted that they eventually learned to carry everything in their head (knowledge) and in the hems of their clothes (diamonds).

If it means anything, I am sorry. I just can't, for emotional reasons, whitewash what is being done to the Palestinians.

I am certain that if I were able to corner you in a room, alone, where you weren't on the defensive, we would find ourselves in agreement over many aspects of this fiasco and even over a fix. I'm sorry that in our zeal to see justice for oppressed people like the Palestinians, we put you on the defensive. I think the entire problem is that, after all this time and history, we've boiled it down to APPEAR as if it's Jews or Palestinians when there's no reason both couldn't co-exist peacefully with a little goodwill from both sides AND if the imperialist colonizing countries stopped their self-serving meddling.

Sorry for rambling...

To life, to life, l'Chaim-im,!
l'Chaim-im, l'Chaim-im, to life!
Life has a way of confusing us
Blessing and bruising us,
Drink l'Chaim, to life,

To life, l'Chaim!
L'chaim, l'Chaim, to life!
A gift we seldom are wise enough
Ever to prize enough,
Drink l'Chaim, to life!

L'Chaim!

:hi:

[drdon326]

173. Like I said Tinoire......

We dont always agree but youre a class act and one fine lady.

l'chaim

[Zhade]

222. This is a FANTASTIC post, Tinoire.

I really like how you laid it all out, took into account both sides, and revealed why someone like DrDon is so kneejerk in excusing war criminals like Sharon, without getting judgemental and hateful.

We could all learn from your wise, sensitive approach.

[bpilgrim]

134. ah, another TRUTH TELLER steps up... betcha we got a lot more than 3 - lol

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[drdon326]

138. Tinoire is total class.....I have endless respect for her.

and while I dont always agree with her , she DOESN'T resort to cheap mindless bullying tactics and pathetic innuendos that anyone who doesnt agree with her MUST BE a RWer.And she ACTUALLY respects other points of view without smearing people.



And besides, she is REALLY hot .

[bpilgrim]

143. look in the mirror

all the childish name calling and FUD comes from YOUR 3 ring circus spreading FUD that she is responding to and fortunately we got a paper trail.

peace

[drdon326]

149. Blah,blah,blah.....

the "FACTS ON THE GROUND" speak otherwise.

[bpilgrim]

150. thanks for HIGHLIGHTING my point

knew i could count-on YOU :toast:

peace

[Tinoire]

170. I love your sense of irony

The further we keep DrDon away from I/P, the better he gets. Trust me.

If I had the power, I would make that entire issue go away and Ithink Galloway's apology is a great, albeit small, first step.

I think that the sooner that issue could be resolved, the better off we'd all be in our fight FOR justice.

Unfortunately, too many politicians have a vested interest in making sure it NEVER gets resolved.

- Sharon with his land grab

- Bush, Inc. with their oil grab

- the CFR Rhodes Bilderbergers with their dreams of Empire

- the US government with its dream of domination over the Middle East

- the European government with their dreams of exploitation & domination

We're fucked.

On edit: :hi:

[not systems]

148. Perhaps learning to emulate rather than just recognize ...

would be a good exercises.

"anyone who doesn't agree with her MUST BE a RWer"

switch "RWer" with "jew-hater"

and we have your opening post on this thread.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3783877&mesg_id=3783949&page=

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

155. It must be boring in the basement today...

:toast:

[drdon326]

159. " to spew hate and FUD against lefties. "

There you go again and again and again......couldnt control yourself, could you ?

Its good to know that youre the IDEAL STANDARD of whats left and wrong by which others are judged.

Seriously, have you no shame ?

[bennywhale]

167. If you lot, Zuni, bpilgrim, geek tradegy et al had been in Barcelona at

the end of the Spanish Civil War you would have been amongst the traitors to the cause who began killing eachother, letting the Fascists establish a dictatorship for decades.

[Colorado Blue]

174. Bennywhale, you know I respect you and your ideas. But on

this, I think you're missing what we're trying to say.

There are very serious reasons for people to have reservations about Galloway and VERY serious reasons for people to be worried about the gleeful bashing of a certain nation and a certain group of people, which are spewing forth recently, here and there.

It is highly reminiscent of certain nightmares of history, in the not so recent past, and liberal and progressive individuals should be cognizant of that and wary of politicians who exploit people's fears and racial differences.

It is also astonishing to me that "progressives" would start longing wistfully for the likes of Stalin and Saddam Hussein.

Shalom.

[bennywhale]

253. Not trying to undermine the importance of your arguments Colorado

(i also included bpilgrim in there) just getting really frustrated with the frantic accusations from both sides. it is depressingly familiar of past self implosions i have studied and experienced first hand. The thread has just descended into entrenched positions with no-one open to anything due to the insulting nature of the debate. The death of debate is a dangerous thing, and a lot are guilty of that on DU. Why do the Left always fight like this? The reference to the Spanish Civil war was just the most obvious example i could think of to highlight the nature of this thread. If one KNOWS they are right rather than BELIEVES they are right, people end up dead.

[Colorado Blue]

256. I do so agree with you, especially your last statement. I too

am deeply concerned about this insulting, mutually bashing sort of thing. I doesn't help us understand each other at all and also, as you say, the possibility of people ending up dead due to KNOWING they are right is very great.

The Left has an OPPORTUNITY just now, people have been caught out in the open lying through their teeth - their pants are totally DOWN - and we're going at each OTHER.

If I were a Conspiracy Theorist I would suspect agents provocateurs! It's happened before, yes?

[bpilgrim]

261. "possibility of people ending up dead due to KNOWING they are right" WTF

"the possibility of people ending up dead due to KNOWING they are right is very great."

are you THREATENING people now?

"I would suspect agents provocateurs! It's happened before, yes?"

and now you are accusing DU'ers of being FREAKERS or WORSE?!?

ground HOG day, eh...

peace

[Colorado Blue]

269. Oh, please, I was responding to Bennywhale, who has been

around the block a few times - like me. I'm 55.

I've seen what can happen, for example in the Middle East, when people can't compromise or allow for other opinions to enter into the discourse. That also happened in Spain, as Bennywhale was saying.

This is why encouraging extremism, or glorifying a totalitarian dictator, which is one of the problems I have with Galloway, is wrong. And, Bennywhale was trying to tell us, it is wrong to pimp each other, accuse each other of awful things, as you have been accusing ME, because it's historically been a problem on the Left. When we should be pulling together, we're tearing each other apart.

WHY?

If you know the story of the Russian Revolution, about Stalin and the murder of Trotsky, you will also be able to relate to Bennywhale's statement - with which I was agreeing. I hardly think a simple recollection of historical fact constitutes a threat, do you? I didn't take it as a threat.

And, did I accuse anybody of being a Freeper? If you will read what I said, the statement began, "IF I WERE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST...."

Now, I, personally, am NOT a conspiracy theorist.

[bennywhale]

289. I was referring to the death of debate being a murderous thing.

It is. Pol Pot allegedly said "i have unique access to the truth, and if you don't understand the truth there is something wrong with you."

In the Spanish Civil War, POUM, The Anarchists, The Communists etc all KNEW their version was right, so they began murdering each other.

Hitler KNEW he was right.

Stalin KNEW he was right.

FARC KNOW they are right.

The positions taken on this thread, although in no way ACTUALLY dangerous as we are all on the Internet, are nevertheless dangerous for debate amongst us. If entrenched positions such as these were to be projected into a REAL situation they would be lethal.

People must always be open to the opinions of others and be prepared to accept that they may be wrong in some aspects of their thinking. If people are just prepared to learn and be open. Now i would say i know this is right but...

[Frederik]

300. Do you have anything at all

to substantiate what you're saying?

"It is also astonishing to me that "progressives" would start longing wistfully for the likes of Stalin and Saddam Hussein"

Has any leftists you know done so? Do you have a quote or anything to go with that?

[Tinoire]

168. Oh and lol

Not that hot any longer. Have put on a couple of pounds since that picture.

DrDon, you really have to go doooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn the rabbit hole and be really morally tired(?) enough to realize that things just aren't what they seem and accept that other people on your same side really can see them differently.

For the Palestinian thing I have to pretend I am Jewish, remembering every fear, no matter how founded it was, that my Jewish friends ever shared with me.

For the Iraqi thing.. about the same but mostly from knowing the imperialistic lengths we'll go to, empathy and reading.

For the Black thing, well that's too easy.

For the Progressive thing- just can't help it. It's a culmination of the other things.

But I gaurantee you it hasn't been easy getting to this point.

Thank you for your lovely, undeserved, compliments.

Now kiss and make up with my friend Bpilgrim ;)

Pour moi. Pretty please. I will close my eyes and kiss you both on the tip of your noses if you both try http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x6770

We can get there Don, we can all get to the promised land!

[noiretextatique]

172. you're right about two things

tinoire is totally classy...and she's still really hot :evilgrin:

:loveya: gotta stick up for my friends :hi:

[Tinoire]

198. Blush

:hi:


I think I'm going to cover my despicable mirror, suck my stomach in and bask in that compliment tonight ;)

[Vladimir]

157. As often with Gorgeous

I agree with the substance of what he is saying, but I am not certain I'd be using his exact language to say it (if you want martyrs, there are far more pallatable ones than Sheik Yassin out there). But that is a minor quibble - on the substance, he is spot bloody on, as usual.

And you cannot but admire his courage and perseverance in, to borrow a perhaps overused phrase, speaking truth to power; all this in the face of a brutal and unrelenting media/official campaign to defame his character. That he has shut a lot of that up now is down to his performance in the Congress - which, lets face it, even the haters couldn't help smiling at. Galloway is the left's streetfighter, and its too much to expect him to be a saint or flawless because he is neither. But we should be fucking glad he is on our side.

[bpilgrim]

160. from one street-fighter to another, i am very glad he's on our side!

and speaking TRUTH 2 POWER which, imho, isn't used often enough, sadly, since the occasions are too few and very far between.

:hi:

peace

[Jim Sagle]

208. Galloway ain't nuthin' but Nazi filth. And I don't give a flying fuck

about anyone's contrary opinion.

[bpilgrim]

215. thank you Jim Sagle for 'contributing'

:toast:

peace

[Zhade]

218. Man, look at all that anti-semitism!

I mean, to have the audacity to apologize for the British government's allowing one group to steal another group's land!

It's quite clear from this passage that Galloway's only purpose in life is to exterminate the Jews in the most heinous way imaginable!

:sarcasm:

[Azathoth]

231. It may not be Galloway's purpose in life

but it certainly was Yassin and Rantisi's purpose in life. Rantisi, in particular, was rather straightforward about his desire to drive every Jew in Israel into the sea. These are the guys Galloway is praising as martyrs? Come on...

[Zhade]

233. I don't know about those allegations of praise.

Do you have some evidence I could look at?

[Azathoth]

234. It's right in the article Tinoire posted

He blames the failure of the Roadmap on the killing of "martyrs" like Yassin, Rantisi, and others.

[Zhade]

236. I'll have to look into it.

NT!

[Tinoire]

324. You don't think those assassinations contributed to the failure

You don't think those assassinations contributed to the failure of the road map?

Not that the road map was ever intented to succeed; if it was, Sharon would never have been allowed to get away additional crimes further inflaming an entire population such as dropping one ton bombs on residential apartment complexes in the middle of the night. http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-shehadeh.html

Whether you like people like Yassin and Rantisi, they believed in a cause and were killed for it- that constitutes being martyred for their cause which does earn them the title of martyr.

[lonestarnot]

162. Going to change my screen name to Galloway 2

[wtmusic]

225. Link to video on Senate website still, er, broken

they use a backslash instead of a forward slash, and voila! No one can watch it

http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Hearings.Detail&HearingID=232

[bpilgrim]

230. I'm SURE it's just a coinky-dink ;-) ---------------- -----> LINKs

MP3... 4 min
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/George_Galloway.mp3

Real Video... 47 min
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/Galloway/Galloway.rm

Transcript...
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0517-35.htm

his political party website ....
http://www.respectcoalition.org

his email
[e-mail]

BTW: found an error in the gov website link to the whole (3 hr) real media file. here is the correct link to the real file...
http://hsgac.senate.gov/audio_video/051705video.ram start at 1:51:26

contact info...

Office
Phone [phone]
Fax [phone]
Email [e-mail]
Post Respect The Unity Coalition, Room 207/208 Coborn House, 3 Coborn Road, Bow, London E3 2DA
Press
Phone [phone]
Email [e-mail]
Website/Technical
Email [e-mail]

http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?sec=1

psst... pass the word :bounce:

peace

[wtmusic]

286. thanks bp

word has been passed :thumbsup:

[number6]

228. I admire George Galloway, too

even with his faults, he's said some dumb things in the past,..
so have we all

[Taxloss]

251. Galloway likes three things: booze, cigars, and the good life.

He also likes, to a second degree, the things that can secure him those three things, namely public positions, popular support, and large expense accounts. Further, he is blessed with the two things that can make for a very successful political career - namely, great rhetoric and the ability to cover his own tracks.

I'm not denying that George Galloway made mincemeat of Norm Coleman or that it was a sight to behold - I admire his oratory and he has much of worth to say - but you on the US left would be wise to examine his record much more critically. It is as though Rick Santorum came to the UK and devastated Tony Blair in a select committee hearing. Most of the UK left have never heard of Santorum and would applaud our loathed leader's drubbing. But you would know Santorum is not much fun. And would want to warn us. Rightly so.

Those of us who had prior knowledge of Galloway are more wary of him; those of you who discovered him after his testimony love him. Why is that?

I think it's sad that the political opposition in the United States - for so long held up as a hotbed of democracy to us staid brits - are such a collection of milquetoasts that Galloway can come as a refreshment. Even Blair is capable of that kind of oratory, and if you wan the real thing, try Tony Benn, not Galloway.

[bpilgrim]

252. lol - good! so do the rest of us NORMAL human beings... r u an EXTREMIST?

BTW: how come NONE of your post EVER have ANY links to back up your RW talking points :shrug:

just wondering :hi:

peace

[Taxloss]

255. Do you ever read anything of my posts beyond the titles?

Links.

snip

Selection, deselection, reselection

Galloway had been selected as Labour candidate for the Glasgow Hillhead seat held by Roy Jenkins of the SDP. He ran for the Labour Party National Executive Committee in 1986 but came next to last; at the 1986 Party conference he made a strong attack on Shadow Chancellor Roy Hattersley for not favouring exchange controls.

In the 1987 election, Galloway won Glasgow Hillhead with a majority of 3,251. He faced an almost immediate scandal when, as part of the War on Want expenses probe, he was asked about a conference on Mykonos, Greece and replied:

"I travelled to and spent lots of time with people in Greece, many of whom were women, some of whom were known carnally to me. I actually had sexual intercourse with some of the people in Greece."
The revelation put Galloway on the front pages of the tabloid press and the Executive Committee of his local party passed a vote of no confidence in him in February 1988. He only narrowly survived to win reselection in June 1989."

snip

War on Want

"In 1983 Galloway became General Secretary of the charity War on Want , which had strong Labour Party connections (it had been founded by Harold Wilson). He increased its income sevenfold in three years, but faced accusations of misuse of his expenses account, which was £21,000 in 1985-86, to stay in luxury hotels when on foreign trips. He paid back £1,720 after an audit identified a lack of controls, but was cleared of any dishonesty. War on Want was found to have been insolvent, and subsequently dismissed all its staff and went into administration. It was rescued and relaunched in 1991."

http://george-galloway.biography.ms/

snip

Galloway used to discredit WOW long after his departure

" leaders advance their fringe political goals under the guise of a charity. WoW was formerly headed by British MP George Galloway, currently implicated in the "oil for food" scandal with close ties to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. WoW routinely uses hate rhetoric such as "apartheid", "slavery", and "a heavyweight beating a child" in its assault against Israel, while accusing Israeli leaders of attempting to simulate the aftermath of a natural disaster for Palestinians."

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v3n10/WarOnWantEscalatesPoliticalAssaultOnIsrael.htm

His fondness for the high life

Galloway has learnt to love expensive, well cut suits. The former labourer and hard-left politician also savours some other trappings of his job: Cuban cigars, expensive hotels and well publicised meetings with state leaders.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-659858,00.html

How's that for starters?

[bpilgrim]

262. "prior knowledge of Galloway are more wary of him"

His fondness for the high life

:rofl:

peace

[Taxloss]

263. So again, you're just quoting selectively from my post?

What about the rest of it, with the linked proof? Or are you happy with picked out pieces?

:rofl:

pieces

[LuPeRcALiO]

291. But what does tabloid fodder have to do with his politics?

This kind of stuff makes makes me wonder, who's paying for the op research, and why?

[Zuni]

297. do any of you really want to discuss Galloway?

This is a British progressive, pointing out that in the UK many progressives have been wary of him for some time. People post links pointing to allegations going back 20 yrs about him skimming from charities, others point out that he has a long history of being prone to make comments that could be construed as extremely anti-semitic (I am not talking about just supporting palestinian statehood---I am saying he supports Hamas openly and vocally, and is known for alledging conspiracies out of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"---if he is anti-semitic, Trent Lott's coded racism isn't anti-Black)
Oh and none of you seem to remember he has spent Christmas opening gifts with tariq Aziz. At the very least, in that case, he is prone to VERY, VERY poor judgement.

[LuPeRcALiO]

299. Discuss, yes. Slime, no.

We get plenty of that on this side of the Atlantic, so save it.

[Zuni]

296. dude, perhaps you should listen to what British progressives

say about him.

your :rofl: emoticons and your "TRUTH 2 POWER" silliness cannot erase a lifetime of political sleaziness by a man who has used progressive politics for personal gain

[Tinoire]

325. Please link to these progressives you're referring to

British Progressives vilified Oona King and went to bat for Galloway.

You're not deliberately confusing Progressives with Third Way Blairites are you?

We have British progressives throughout this forum and even in this thread contradicting you. I also have links to progressive British sites where the support for Galloway is astounding (the same support that brought him the election by the way).

Your statement doesn't even make sense. Are you suggesting that those people of Bethnal Green were Progressives when they voted for the DLC-equivalent pro-privatization warmongering Oona King and then became hard right wingers overnight and voted for non-progressive anti-Semite Galloway?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're really reaching. Just admit you don't like him because he's pro-Palestinian and antiwar. That way we can just cut to the meat of this argument instead of waltzing around a bunch of silly insinuations.

[TankLV]

319. And, if you look into the COMPLETE story of those charges,

he was investigated THOROUGHLY by the appropriate authorities and found COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Not "not guilty" - but the stronger standard of "completely innocent" of ALL charges.

[Zuni]

295. hey, bpilgim

he is a lefty Brit

he has known about Galloway far longer than you

[TankLV]

318. We "love" him for his timely and long overdue testimony.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Very simple.

[LoZoccolo]

267. This thread is fucking hilarious!

Oh geez! When people twenty years from now make movies making fun of the way things are now, it might very well look like the action in this thread.

[bpilgrim]

270. yeah, the RW BS is thick ain't it?

:rofl:

peace

[LoZoccolo]

283. I didn't expect my post to become a continuation of the weirdness.

But it doesn't surprise me.

[bpilgrim]

284. i was joining you in pointing out the 'weirdness'...

unless you don't think RW spin is 'weirdness' :shrug:

now that would surprise me :P

peace

[LoZoccolo]

288. You weren't joining me in anything.

No really, you weren't.

[Zuni]

294. HA

SNAP

[LuPeRcALiO]

293. it's well rehearsed

whatever it is.

[bpilgrim]

305. probably during recess :P

these fools are so childish in their posts :eyes:

peace

[Taxloss]

274. Quite.

It's astonishing how blind some people are.

[lonestarnot]

298. Because he got balls!

[Moderator]

326. Locking....

This is flamebait and has run its course.



DU Moderator