At what point does a soldier cross that line?

[Blue Belle]

I was listening to an interview on NPR on my way home the other day, and the local station was interviewing some soldiers who had recently returned from Iraq on how they were adjusting to civilian life. The response from one of the soldiers really struck me and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head. At what point does a soldier cross that line from duty to brutality?

Here is the excerpt from the interview:

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/opb/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=779756

David Smith: I miss the guys. I don't miss Iraq. I miss the guys.

Smith spent his tour at a checkpoint on the road between the airport and Baghdad. He plans to go back to school to finish his business management degree.

But since returning he's been doing a lot of hanging out and visiting the guys from his platoon.

David Smith: We can talk about it. We can talk to each other and relate on things you know, sometimes we say just oh jeez civilians.' Because for us, if someone cuts us off, we automatically look at each other and go civilians.' Because where we've been, you could shoot them for that. We just laugh, we say civilians, we don't freak out, we just laugh, because we both know what we're thinking at the same time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because where we've been, you could shoot them for that.

Now I have no idea what the conditions are under which these soldiers serve. From what I understand, anyone or everyone could try to kill you at any given time… and the "enemy" is no more recognizable than the "newspaper boy". I can see where a soldier could become callous in such a tumultuous environment, but at what point does the paradigm shift from "preemptively shooting would-be insurgents", to "shooting Iraqis because they cut us off in traffic and we can"?

I’m not trying to undermine what these soldiers are doing in Iraq. Frankly, they’re doing a job that I wouldn’t choose and laying down their lives for a war that was fraudulently sold to them and the rest of the American people. I do worry, however, that the perception of our soldiers from the perspective of the Iraqi civilians - the reports of brutality that have cost innocent civilians their lives - might very well be true.

At what point does a soldier cross that line?

At what point do we stop blaming the soldiers and start blaming the Administration?

[Horse with no Name]

1. Perhaps the answer lies within the fact that they are keeping many of them

way past what would be considered in the safe zone mentally.
These people will never be the same.
My guess is the ones that were ordered to do unspeakable horrors over there at some point will lose the ability to differentiate the boundaries here.
It will be a mess.
But even more insidious--one has to ask if they keep them there longer and longer to intentionally break them?
When it gets to the point that they can joke about being able to shoot people, it gets to the point that you are creating a force within a force that can easily shoot their neighbors without blinking an eye.
That would come in handy if they really wanted to militarize the country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. At what point do you also blame the military

these kids are having a hell of a time adjusting to civilian life and the militayr is not helping

Now to cutting off in a sistuation like Iraq, this cutting off may be the split second that signals an attack on your group as they are trying to box you in.

Now if they are now authorized to shoot if cut off, this only tells me things are a a thousand times worst than most people are even capable of imagining

[Blue Belle]

4. That is my worry too...

I've never been a subscriber to this Administration's liberal use of "a few bad apples" excuse. These reports are happening all the time. If things are really getting to this point, we're in serious danger. Of course we'll never hear about it on the TV...

[Modem Butterfly]

3. War is the least natural thing we do

War goes against our mammalian nature. It goes against all our evolved survival instincts. War fucks people up. No human being should be put in that position unless it becomes absolutely necessary and there is simply no way around it.

[Blue Belle]

5. Thanks whomever reccommended this...

I guess this subject matter isn't as interesting as exploding toilets or Christina Agulara campaigning for virginity.

:-)

[NMMNG]

6. I don't buy the "few bad apples" line either

I think there are barrels and barrels of bad apples. I don't mean to imply every soldier is abusive, but I think that a good number of them cross the line at one time or another. They are trained to see the "other" as the enemy, and to use multiple forms of aggression against them. Then they get into a foreign country where, as the above quoted solider said, something as simple as cutting a person off in traffic is an offense that warrants killing the offender.


That makes me wonder about something that happened near me recently. My roomie came home and told me she'd been taking a friend of hers home. As they neared the friend's home they had to stop as there was a commotion in the middle of the street. Two vehicles, a pickup truck with a middle aged man and a car were stopped. A guy in his late 20s to early 30s, the driver of the car, was standing outside the car yelling at the driver of the truck..."Go ahead and cut me off again you &%$#!!!, I dare you! If I had a gun I swear I'd %$#@ing shoot you!" As he was ranting and raving he was waving his arms and jumping all around.

Former soldier? Who knows. Definitely an advertisement for gun control though.

[Solly Mack]

7. That's a question that comes up a lot in my home

My husband is a soldier and did spend a year in Iraq.

We talk about this all the time. My husband was lucky. Not because he survived, though I'm not discounting that in the least....but because when he saw things that were wrong, he told his command. He kept his humanity.

He never killed anyone. Odd statement that. It's not a brag.....it's a sigh of relief. I'm not sure how to help others "feel" the emotion those words can bring..."He never killed anyone"...it's like missing the collision but still being on the highway;driving at top speed with no brakes. Every close call is punctuated by the "this time"...

So we talk.

"Why do some soldiers cross the line?"



Because some soldiers are already crazy. Because some soldiers go crazy. Because some just don't care and they buy the lies and the hate. Because some go along with the crowd.Some soldiers are just so scared, they don't think.

"But you aren't trained to think, you're trained to react when it comes to war.

That's not true. The catch is - if you react without thinking, you'll endanger everyone(civilian and soldier alike). Those are the worse soldiers. Those who do not think first. They might survive the war but they'll lose the battle-they have become damaged humans.

"What makes the difference?"

The character you carry within you. That moment of choice - and you choose the right path. You never know really. Different things for different people keep them from crossing the line. Some would never think to cross it and some have to fight that struggle each and every moment.Some are just lucky.

"And you?"

I don't know. Some things just never cross your mind. I didn't think of why I didn't do something, I just didn't do it.

"And your lasting memory of Iraq?"

The little girl

The little girl had leprosy. He met her early on. Her disease was so advanced she was dying from non-treatment. In her entire short life, she got next to no treatment. My husband carried her dying body, along w/ her mother and father, through 3 cities seeking help for her. He couldn't find it. Iraqi doctors too scared or wanting money (to survive with) and American medics not concerned. He finally reached into his wallet, took out all his cash, then gave it to an Iraqi doctor....the doctor helped the child die comfortably...because that's all they could do for her by then.

That's what my husband brought home. That's what he remembers most about Iraq.

He still twitches in his sleep. He still cringes when we drive near a bridge. Narrow roads make him jumpy.....but all that's gotten better over time....it used to be way worse.

It's the little 7 year old girl that will haunt him forever.

What makes a soldier cross that line?

I don't know...but some do, and they have gone to a place inside themselves I can't begin to understand. But it's the ones that don't cross that line that live with heartache I'll never be able to imagine....and they are the ones we will never hear about. Their pain doesn't make the news.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I hadn't read your post when I posted.

That was not only a great post but could be turned into a wonderful article for the front page with a little tweaking. Especially with all the spin there is on Abu Graib, the attacks against Amnesty and the gulag comment.

[Solly Mack]

12. Hi Teena

Thank you for saying that.

The outright lies by this administration and military officials angers me greatly.

[Solly Mack]

42. I gave it a shot. I "tweaked" and submitted...we'll see,

Thank you again!

[Blue Belle]

15. Thank you for posting...

That was a very powerful message... very well written and well said. I wish I could nominate a response for the greatest page.

[NMDemDist2]

18. wow

please thank your husband for me. It has given me hope for this planet once again. It is the spark of love and what is the best part of humanity I felt from reading your post that has given me the strength to find optimism in my tired heart for one more day.

Thank you.

[merh]

19. Thank you for this post.

:hug: to you and your husband. Thank him and tell him he is in my prayers as are all those who are serving and have served. :patriot:

[progmom]

20. thank you

thank you so much for sharing this.

:hug:

i'm going to go think about this for awhile now.

please tell your husband that he is a hero to me.

[Jack Rabbit]

21. Outstanding post

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

22. thank you solly mack

for sharing something so extra ordinary and personal and well thought out. i dont think there is a greater gift that will heal, other than the stories from those that have experienced this war.

you gave me chills with your husbands life that he lives.

[leftchick]

23. thank you Solly....

Please tell me he does not have to go back. Your husband sounds like a wonderful human being. As you do. You are both very blessed.

peace,
lc

[Solly Mack]

40. So far he doesn't have to go back but that could change

He's strictly garrison right now. We are hoping to stay right where we are for as long as possible. The odds are in our favor but it depends on how desperate the military gets in the next few years. (then we retire-if they allow him to retire)

keep your fingers crossed! :)

[TahitiNut]

24. Yep. And the shit hits the fan when those who "cross the line" ...

... are, due to promotions, in charge. The evil beauty of a draft is to populate the lower ranks with a real cross-section of America, which increases the chance that such psychopaths get fragged. War is brutal. War is insane. Fragging is both - but often gets the worst of the worst.

[Nothing Without Hope]

26. Another DU thread that can be added to this discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3784983
Thread title: "Revelations about Racism in the Military - Witness to War Crimes"

Not only fear and nationalism, but racism and religious intolerance seem to be involved in stepping over that line. All of these have been hyped by enablers of this administration. They have wielded hate, fear and political and religous propaganda to mold people who will do what they want without moral qualms.

[blm]

27. PLEASE repost this in its own thread. It should be on the homepage

and more eyeballs need to see it.

[Karenina]

33. Yes, indeed it does!

:loveya:

[MeDeMax]

28. thnx for sharing that personal reality...

it helps others.

[AwakeAtLast]

30. This was hard for me to read.

I'll explain. You may already know, but my husband and his Guard unit are waiting to go to Iraq. He should be there mid-July. He is not even over there yet, but he is already showing signs that he is having a tough time. And so, we are having a tough time. This has been the longest month of my life. :(

Thanks so much for posting.

[Solly Mack]

36. If you need to talk, even if it's just to unload some, I'm here.

I mean that...it's not a polite offer....I mean it.

Friends and family help..but it's the people that are going through it or have been through it already that will understand better than anyone what you're dealing with...

[fooj]

31. God bless his humanity!

:patriot:

[Qanisqineq]

32. Thanks for saying it Solly

My husband spent a year in Iraq, too. He didn't kill anyone and only saw one Iraqi get killed. He was very lucky. He was in a quieter area up north, at least it was quieter then. He wasn't sent to Iraq until after the "war" and things weren't terrible at the time. There were mortars fired at them daily, they were shot at daily, and they often went after and arrested these "insurgents". They fired back only as a last resort because, as he states, "the Iraqis had really bad aim." And he never even fired his weapon once during his stay in Iraq.

Things were getting much worse by the time he left Iraq, but it hadn't quite made it to the part of Iraq he was stationed in.

I do think there are always some "bad apples" and people shouldn't paint the troops with such a broad brush -- as in claiming all soldiers and marines are war criminals. Of course I am fully aware that the war crimes are extensive and there are many soldiers crossing the line over there. I am not in denial. I will not make excuses for them because it sickens me and every soldier I know. But this war is dragging on and on and some troops spend 18 months there straight. Others are on their second deployment to Iraq. Who knows, some may be on their third deployment.

I think they lose their minds. They hear constant racial slurs from a few troops and it starts to spread like a cancer. They see friends killed. They start to see all Iraqis as the enemy. They miss their families, they are sleep deprived, hungry, hot, homesick. After awhile it all starts to take its effect. These soldiers will come back to the US, to regular army life or to civilian life, and have a hard time coping. I see it and I hear about it all the time. My husband knows soldiers that have attempted suicide. Some soldiers come back from the war to find out their wife is seeing someone else and really lose it. We've seen marriages break up because the spouse doesn't like how much the soldier has changed -- the returning soldier becomes violent or/and moody.

War does this to people. I still support the troops because I know it wasn't their choice to start this war and most don't want to be there. I don't want any more Iraqis or troops to die. I don't want to see anymore wounded people, people that have lost their limbs or eyes or are forever covered with scars. I don't want to see any more men, women, and children that will live with the horrible images in their minds for the rest of their lives.

[Solly Mack]

37. There's a saying about war being ugly and the aftermath

even uglier.... speaking of the toll it takes on the minds and spirts of people.

The scars no one sees. The injury to the very being of a person that isn't as obvious as a missing limb....but are more devastating.

(((((((Qanisqineq)))))

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Awesome post

You should send it to Michael Moore for him to post on his website:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/willtheyevertrustusagain/

[Solly Mack]

38. Thank you, everyone

Your words of support and concern mean a lot! :grouphug:

The people at DU helped me through his time in Iraq and you are still here helping me through the recovery of Iraq. That means a great deal to me. I love you guys!

[ninkasi]

41. Thank you, Solly Mack.

That story was beautiful, and your husband sounds like a wonderful person. In the end, he gave a child all he had, so the doctor could do all in his power to do, so that the child could die peacefully.

Just for the seven year old girl, and the others with other tragedies, but equally hopeless, your husband stands as an example of the best we are capable of.

Equally so, Bush, and his gang, stand for the pain and suffering, the death and destruction, brought upon a country which posed no threat.to us. To me, your husband, and the others (too few) like him, are like the anti-Bush. Peace and blessings to you both, and again, thank you for relaying the beautiful story to us.

[BlueIris]

44. Thank you for sharing your experiences (and your husband's).

That was an excellent post. Best of luck with everything you will have to deal with in the future.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. At the point where they do something or agree to do something

they know is wrong in the name of following orders. Same as the line is for ALL OF US that call ourselves human.

[emanymton]

10. "What, Me Worry?" Adminstration Is Not To Be Blamed For Anything.

shrub and Co are not responsible, period. Don't take my word for it. Ask them. They tell US all the time. Newsweek and liberal's are to blame but not shrub and Co.

[LightningFlash]

11. I'm truly appalled by this....

Many of the soldiers becoming this way are no older than 25....Many of them are very recognizable by me, even my family....I can't believe they are becoming so disenchanted, that they would even open fire on someone else once they snap.

That's just disturbing....This entire corrupt force has made a real corrupt military occupation that is truly disturbing.

[acmejack]

13. Killing people causes the soul to die

A little bit. Remember these young people are doing the things they do in OUR name. Don't blame them or damn them, they are idealistic people doing what they believe(d) a patriotic service. I think you must recall the old saying "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die".

[Blue Belle]

14. I agree with you...

As I stated in my original post, These soldiers are over there doing something I would never choose to do, and laying down their lives for a war that was sold to them and the American People on false pretenses. I don't doubt their patriotism, or condemn them one iota.

It just seems to me that this slip of the tongue may be a clue to what really goes on over there - you know, the war we never get to hear about on TV??

These soldiers are idealistic and young... but as you pointed out, the things that they are doing, they do in OUR NAME. That being said, I do have the right to be concerned about what transpires over there and the manner in which they happen.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. Makes ya wonder what life in the USA will be like with so

many that are willing to open fire at the slightest and enjoy it...think Virginia sniper case

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. here's one line amongst many lines you do not cross

[MojoXN]

25. They wouldn't have been in the position to commit war crimes...

in the first place had it not been for the Administration lying to start an illegal war. Therefore, any war crimes committed by American soldiers are directly the fault of the Administration. By the way, the person who thinks that the people accused of these atrocities wasn't just following orders is a naive person indeed.

MojoXN

[kenny blankenship]

29. the only guarantee in war:

whoever wins, the civilians lose.

[liberaliraqvet26]

35. i served under the 800th MP Bn

at Camp Bucca near Basra from Mar of '03 to Feb of "04 and I can tell you a Specialist wouldn't have been trusted being the "ringleader" of latrine cleaning duty

[senegal1]

39. Welcome to DU.

[Blue Belle]

43. Welcome to the DU...

Thanks for posting... and thanks for serving! :-)