Flame me, I don't like the UN

[fujiyama]

I really don't care if people think my post is RW but I seriously think the UN is a fucked up institution. What bothers me the most is the power the US and the other four permanent members weild.

Why do five nations get to dictate how other nations run things? Isn't this undemocratic? So, Germany, India, Brazil, and Japan want on. All are democracies, albeit imperfect ones, but how come China, a communist dictatorship, can dictate that it can't be enlarged? The US, meanwhile is just as bad opposing any proposals to expand the veto power.

The UN needs serious reforms. It has great parts to it (notably UNESCO, the WHO), but it's weak and ineffective. It couldn't stop the US from attacking Iraq. It couldn't stop genocide in Rwanda, Bosnia, and hasn't done anything in Darfur.

Please tell me why as a liberal I should respect an institution which is nothing more than a rubber stamp for western and other imperalist powers? Kennedy was correct when he said the temp members on the SC were bribed anyways.

Note, this isn't an endorsement of Bolton, but rather I believe the UN will become worse with him representing this nation.

[TheDebbieDee]

1. Okay, consider yourself flamed!

[manic expression]

2. The thing is that...

It really is a mixed bag for me, as I do not like the fact that there is nothing being done, or been done about serious genocide (Sudan, etc.). Another thing is that I suspect it was primarily organized to preserve the balance of power in the West after WWII, and served those countries' (the countries mostly involved in colonialism and imperialism, coincidentally) interests over the needs of other countries and the right course of action. They do have programs for humanitarian aid, although there is much, much, much more that should be done. I think it has great potential, but it does have shortcomings. I'm not going to rabidly decry the organization itself at all, but I'm not going to let something go unsaid if there's something wrong with it.

[funflower]

9. Re the UN and Sudan,

it's my understanding that they're not just some autonomous entity that can order UN troops in to stop the genocide. The troops, money and will to do it have to come from the member states. Right?

[Maple]

3. Well you have to keep up with these things

The UN has been trying for reform for years...it was created after WWII, and this is an entirely different world now...but little things like the Cold War, possible nuclear annihilation of the planet, Korea, Vietnam and so on held things up.

There was a glorious lull in the 90s...the UN hastened to put together a brand new blueprint...then Bush came along.

The blueprint comes up for a vote this fall.

Will the US vote for needed change?

Probably not

[LightningFlash]

4. Actually I do not trust the U.N. and it has since degenerated.

But, hackjobbing the entire thing to pieces will never reform the U.N. either. Frankly since the criminals took occupation, the United Nations has become more corrupt than ever before and deserves to be flushed out. During Clinton it showed some early warning signs.

Fire all the corrupt, squabbling delagates in the U.N. and hire some honest, working americans and foreigners. That is what I believe the U.N. needs desperately right now, so we don't get anymore stunted slime back inside of it. (Hint: Coleman is no angel.)

[seabeyond]

5. there are a lot of issues with u.n., you are right

geez who is it that was in position of humans rights, and it was a country that was so abusive to citizens. no the u.n. isnt the savior. regardless what the united states did to u.n. during iraq was bad.

i am not a fan of u.n. either. but it is what we have. i am not enemy of them either like the rw who think they are going to invade us, with china, on the border of mexico

[NNguyenMD]

6. but its still the only outlet for nations, big or small, to voice their

concerns to the rest of the world. A naive assessment perhaps, probably more based on the post WWII reasoning behind the invention of the UN. But I'd rather give two nations on the verge of war a chance to talk it out with moderators with a world audience, than settle it themselves.

I can't think of specific examples where this has happened, but I would hope that at the very least that this is a function that the UN is still able to preserve.

[Pepperbelly]

7. the only thing worse than the U.N. is not having the U.N. nt

[DrDebug]

16. Indeed. It's still the best thing we have

And it maybe a shitty undemocratic oversized lobby group, but it has at least some independence even though the strategic nations have too much power in the structure.

The alternative for the UN would be the lobby groups and they are totally intransparant.

[Rex]

8. Lighting the flamethrower as we speak

Typical isolationist rhe...haha just kidding. :evilgrin:

[Protagoras]

10. The UN might be something vastly different

if the US didn't treat it like a puppet. It's hard when you think of Kosovo or Rwanda and how utterly paralyzed they were...and continue to be. Still, something like the UN needs to exist.

But it must be free of selfish superpowers who want to act like spoiled infants. It needs to be a truly balanced and neutral institution...not based in NYC.

I don't much care for what we have turned it into myself...but I have great hopes for what it has a potential to become if we just wake the hell up.

[fujiyama]

12. Very true

My argument isn't that the US should leave the UN. It's that the US should RESPECT it. Respect the other Goddamned members.

The problem I see though is that the US isn't the only problem and the only country throwing its weight around. Influence is understandable, even expected, but as I see it the five permanent members use this to protect their interests and ONLY their interests. That too is understandable.

That's why I say, scrap the SC completely...or expand it. The existing system is bullshit.

I'm not interested in having the world dictated by what is little more than a powerful cartel.

[Protagoras]

18. agreed.

and move the UN to a neutral country that isn't on the SC to begin with.

[socal_dan]

11. I don't like politicians...

You don't like UN.

Nonetheless, I think a peaceful society, well, all'z i was gunna do wuz joke around and have some laughs and next thing ya know everyone wants to go around bombin each other and stuff...

Jeez, these people are unruly!

[Swamp Rat]

13. Welcome to DU!

[Swamp Rat]

14. OK, but I prefer we take care of problems in the U.S. government first.

[neweurope]

15. In which way is Germany an "imperfect" democracy? Compared

to the USA, I suppose? Just curious.

I don't like many things about the UN, either. But I think it's the only chance for mankind and the rest of the planet. The UN needs strengthening, not weakening. Having no respect for it is the first step in making it weaker.

-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[fujiyama]

27. Oops

That was a mistake.

As of this point, I'm thinking of placing the US closer to Russia and China than it is to Germany or the UK.

[neweurope]

29. Thanks :) I find it nice of you to have answered :)

:hi:

--------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[twenty4blackbirds]

17. The UN is only as good/useful as the people in it.

"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." Eldridge Cleaver (1935-1998)
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible and wrong." H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

aside: "War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace." Thomas Mann (1875-1955)

[seabeyond]

19. and look you didnt get flamed

democrats are pretty smart. we can see the good and bad. whereas on the other side, they tend to lack that ability of seeing good and bad. it can only be all bad. or all good. life .....nothing works that way

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. A list of US vetoes 1972-2002

1972-2002 Vetoes from the USA
---
Year -----Resolution Vetoed by the USA
1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1973 Afirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Afirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978 Urges the permanent members (USA, USSR, UK, France, China) to insure United Nations decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security.
1978 Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement.
1979 Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race.
1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.
1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.
1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.
1979 Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms.
1979 Opposes support for intervention in the internal or external affairs of states.
1979 For a United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations.
1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories. 3 resolutions.
1980 Afirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.
1980 Offers assistance to the oppressed people of South Africa and their national liberation movement.
1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation.
1980 Endorses the Program of Action for Second Half of United Nations Decade for Women.
1980 Declaration of non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states.
1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.
1980 Calls for the cessation of all nuclear test explosions.
1980 Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.
1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.
1981 Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories.
1981 Calls for the cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons.
1981 Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament.
1981 Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons.
1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.
1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq. 18 resolutions.
1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. 6 resolutions (1982 to 1983).
1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.
1982 Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology.
1982 Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives and debts.
1982 Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space. 3 resolutions.
1982 Supports a new world information and communications order.
1982 Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons.
1982 Development of international law.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment .
1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.
1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions.
1985 Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist and neo-Fascist activities .
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.
1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.
1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development.
8 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon. 2 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
1987 Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States.
1987 Calls for compliance in the International Court of Justice concerning military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua and a call to end the trade embargo against Nicaragua. 2 resolutions.
1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.
1987 Resolutions concerning journalism, international debt and trade. 3 resolutions.
1987 Opposition to the build up of weapons in space.
1987 Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction.
1987 Opposition to nuclear testing. 2 resolutions.
1987 Proposal to set up South Atlantic "Zone of Peace".
1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories. 5 resolutions (1988 and 1989).
1989 Condemns USA invasion of Panama.
1989 Condemns USA troops for ransacking the residence of the Nicaraguan ambassador in Panama.
1989 Condemns USA support for the Contra army in Nicaragua.
1989 Condemns illegal USA embargo of Nicaragua.
1989 Opposing the acquisition of territory by force.
1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resoltions.
1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.
1995 Afirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.
1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories. 2 resolutions.
1999 Calls on the USA to end its trade embargo on Cuba. 8 resolutions (1992 to 1999).
2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.
2002 To renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia.

[lala_rawraw]

21. So what you are saying is that

What bothers you is the power of the US, England, Germany, etc.? Right? That is not the UN, that is simply a fraction. That said, it was the UN who did not want the war in Iraq, and including Germany and France.

So be clear on your statement, what you don't like is the role of the US and England in the UN. I agree, I don't like the role of the US and England either. The rest is nonsense and makes room for flame. I think you should clarify.

[fujiyama]

28. Germany isn't on the SC

so I don't have a problem with them. It's the role of the SC that bothers me. I don't like five nations putting forth the agenda, especially when three have terrible human rights records, one is a dictatorship, and two others (Russia and the US) can barely be considered democracies. The temporary members are also a joke - Pakistan on the sc? WTF? A nation that proliferates nukes and sponbsors terrorism going on to other nations going on about human rights?

No, I don't think China, even if it has a huge population has the right to set forth the UN agenda.

The immediate post WW II era is over. The UN should adjust accordingly. Either expand the SC or abolish it.

[lala_rawraw]

31. So what you are saying is that you have a problem with the US

Because it is us who control that aspect of the UN, correct? Then I agree with you. The UN should have adjusted by holding the US accountable for war crimes and crimes against humanity, but given that the US controls much of what happens at the UN (need I mention Iraq, or the oil-for food Bush lies?).

[MGKrebs]

22. When did it become the UN's responsibility to intervene

in your definition of a crisis?

The UN will only be able to get involved in relatively non-controversial issues. That is the way it is. If you want someone to intervene in controversial issues, especially conflicts, I suggest looking to other entities first.

The UN works in ways that strive to PREVENT conflicts, and in ways to clean up AFTER conflicts, but intervening directly in conflicts is not the UN's strong suit.

How exactly would a UN have stopped the Iraq attack? With an overwhelming super-national force? Yikes.

Perhaps your expectations for the organization are overly ambitious. For this you should not condemn the organization.

If you want to believe the UN is a 'rubber stamp' you are choosing to ignore the LONG list of programs that the UN is effectively running throughout the world and judging the institution on a narrow fantasy of what you think it should be doing, and that makes me question your sincerity in asking the question.

[kenny blankenship]

23. Isn't this undemocratic?

Ain't that America?

[dejaboutique]

24. Isnt the UN the only one that could save us

if things got bad in this country...isn't the UN the one with the power to save us? Seems like there would be no one else monitoring human rights and such?

[CatholicEdHead]

25. Yes, the UN needs reform, not Destruction like is being pushed

by BushCo. It needs to be moved into the GeoPolitics of today. It still has a purpose, but other powers-that-be would rather it be totally gone for a worldwide robber-baron approach. That and some "born-agains" who think the UN is holding up the second coming by trying to hold back all out-war.

[Finder]

26. Well first of all you misunderstand the purpose...

as do most. The UN was never intended to be a body that interfered in a nation's civil or political problems. During the cold war it was essential to prevent the two superpowers from making pawns of other nations.(to the best of its ability)

It is a body of "NATIONS" not ethnicity, religion, ideology.

Can you imagine if an organization like the UN interfered in our Civil war? Sure it would have prevented the death of many but...a sovereign nation needs to be sovereign and work out their own issues. People need to liberate themselves from within.(although covertly using outside help is the norm)

The issues with Israel are because we have armed them to the point of making any civil discourse within the country or area of Palestine unbalanced. When the USSR was providing weaponry to Egypt(before we made a deal)it was a bit different.

The US does not follow and hasn't followed any of the international treaties or precepts set up by and through the UN for decades,(Laos,Cambodia for example) although we have enforced them with others when it was in our best interests. If a EU is actually formed/ratified, there will be no need for a UN since the world will be comprised of less than 10 blocs and to have a body preside over them would make it the much feared "One world government" since might and money would prevail.

This said, I never thought we would actually become the fascist, imperialist nation we are becoming and feel the UN is the last hope the world has to stay out of a world war even if they are just a minor deterrent.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. I think that the UN performs many useful functions

But as far as stopping wars goes, they have failed miserably. The greatest indictator of this, is that not only do rogue states not care about what the UN thinks, the only superpower left in the world doesn't give two shits about what the UN thinks.

I agree that Bolton will only make things worse. The freeps think that we need Bolton to shake things up and show them that they have no control over us. I think that we made that point loud and clear with the unilateral invasion of Iraq. Bolton will only piss off some people whose help we may actually need in the future.